Topic: Interesting stage 4 build... (Read 7482 times)

spook120 · « **on:** March 16, 2017, 03:54:47 PM »

So decided to build my 17 CVO into a stage 4 motor...but will install a stage 3 cam! I seldom ride above the 4500 RPM range with an occasional run up to 5500. Can't remember when a HD of mine has seen anything past that. So with some consultation with the wrench doing the build we are going to experiment a bit and see if we can increase the torque between 2000-4500. If it doesn't pan out, then the stage 4 cam will be substituted as I will have adjustable tapered pushrods in this build. Exhaust will be Fullsac 2.5 cores in the original mufflers with either a jackpot or fullsac head pipe... depending on availability. I will let the board know how it works out in the next few weeks. Any thoughts??

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #1 on:** March 17, 2017, 07:36:39 AM »

I think it may be better for how I ride then the stage 4 cam. I just do not like moving the torque curve so far to the right like the full stage 4 does.

I like torque curve that comes on earlier and is flatter. It will be very interesting to see your results.

SDCVO · « **Reply #2 on:** March 18, 2017, 12:07:58 AM »

Make sure you discuss with your dealer keeping it under full warranty if you change the stage 4. Might want to get something in writing from them if they say they will cover in case whoever tells you that is not there down the road when you might need it.

spook120 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 18, 2017, 09:59:16 AM »

Thanks for the reply. Already discussed, we will be using all HD internals, just stepping down a cam size to maximize torque in the RPM range that I ride. It would void warranty at this dealer if I used an after market cam. Exhaust is ok, aftermarket can is not.

CVOSGJoe · « **Reply #4 on:** March 18, 2017, 10:30:08 AM »

What tune are you going to use? Screamin Eagle Street Tuner does not have that combo nor are there any plans to build a map for it. Myself and my local dealer called HD and told that using this cam with the Stage IV build is not recommended by HD and the bike will not run correctly.

spook120 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2017, 10:38:40 AM »

Going to be using the TTS tuner. Believe me the bike won't leave the dealership unless it is running the way I want it. Worse case scenario I go to the Stage 4 cam, that is why I am using adjustable pushrods so a cam swap is not that big of a deal. The mechanic who is building the bike knows his stuff, and I trust his abilities. So I guess we will see where this adventure takes me. The wrench, when questioned about the relationship between heads, cam, throttle body, was confident that this combination would bring the torque curve to where I want it and that the throttle response with the 64mm throttle body should be great....(sound like Trump...ugh) Anyway, time will tell. Thanks for your input.

SDCVO · « **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2017, 10:11:11 PM »

Quote from: spook120 on March 18, 2017, 10:38:40 AM

Going to be using the TTS tuner. Believe me the bike won't leave the dealership unless it is running the way I want it. Worse case scenario I go to the Stage 4 cam, that is why I am using adjustable pushrods so a cam swap is not that big of a deal. The mechanic who is building the bike knows his stuff, and I trust his abilities. So I guess we will see where this adventure takes me. The wrench, when questioned about the relationship between heads, cam, throttle body, was confident that this combination would bring the torque curve to where I want it and that the throttle response with the 64mm throttle body should be great....(sound like Trump...ugh) Anyway, time will tell. Thanks for your input.

Sounds like you got this all dialed in, look forward to reading your report once you get some miles on it.

spook120 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 08, 2017, 09:33:45 AM »

Ok guys, got the preliminary results from my stage 4 build using a stage 3 cam. I have the heavy breather (which barely fits with the lowers!), jack pot head pipe, 2 inch fullsac baffles. The bike turned a 125.6 HP and a 128.6 torque. At 2200 RPM it has 100.6 FT Lbs with a torque peak at 3800 of 128.6 and carries over a 120 ft.lbs from 3000 to 5300 RPM. The torque curve is smooth with no dip. I have no clue how to post dyno sheets and such...sorry. The bike was tuned with a TTS system. The bike sounds good, haven't really had time to ride it yet but will let you know what I think when I do so. All results are from a superflow dyno and are SAE corrected at the rear wheel. Not sure what that means but sounds good....Anyway, just an update for now. Thanks.

JCZ · « **Reply #8 on:** April 08, 2017, 09:49:44 AM »

Look forward to seeing the dyno sheet on this build as well as your report over the next year or two (longevity). Thanks a bunch for stepping out there and taking the risk. If it's not a successful build, you can always change the cam and retune.

For those of us that had the performance motors built for the past few decades, we all know that for a Harley, the higher rpms, the greater the chances of weeps, seeps and leaks. Just kind of goes with the territory.

Do you do much touring riding? Just wondering how this kind of build will last when riding hundreds of miles in a day.....day after day.

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2017, 10:17:41 AM »

Wondering if 1.75 Baffels would bring in more TQ earlier???

spook120 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2017, 10:51:46 AM »

Not sure about the baffle size, just went with what Steve suggested. As far as touring, this is my local run around bike as I tour on my GSA BMW.... go figure. I just feel more comfortable having an "ugly" GSA sitting around at night than a 40K HD! Anyway, as I said I have no idea how to post anything. The dyno sheet is rather blah, just a couple of lines on the paper which to me mean sqwat. As far as longevity...hey its a Harley...and most likely will be traded or sold long before the odometer reaches 15K. So as soon as the weather cooperates in the great white north I will put on some miles and let the board know what I think. I suspect it will be ok, nothing great or earth shattering but will work for the kind of riding I do on this type of bike. Will it be as fun as my 120 T-man build...probably not, but hopefully it will have enough reliability to get me home the majority of the times I take it out. Something I couldn't say about the 120..as that bike I started in the garage and turned off in the garage after it left me sit 5 different times merrily eating starters...ugh. Thanks for the replies.

skratch · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2017, 03:12:48 PM »

Quote from: spook120 on March 18, 2017, 09:59:16 AM

Thanks for the reply. Already discussed, we will be using all HD internals, just stepping down a cam size to maximize torque in the RPM range that I ride. It would void warranty at this dealer if I used an after market cam. Exhaust is ok, aftermarket can is not.

not sure why you're worried about using hd internals iot keep warranty intact. by tuning with the tts, you just voided it anyways.

your dyno results sound like a ton of fun. enjoy

spook120 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 08, 2017, 03:19:42 PM »

MY dealer will still warranty his work no matter what tuner is used. But they won't if any non HD internals are used.

Fullsac Performance · « **Reply #13 on:** April 10, 2017, 10:05:41 AM »

Quote from: skratch on April 08, 2017, 03:12:48 PM

not sure why you're worried about using hd internals iot keep warranty intact. by tuning with the tts, you just voided it anyways.

your dyno results sound like a ton of fun. enjoy

The dealer who got the money in his pocket will not void the warranty. They know how to play the warranty game better than anybody, they have doing it the longest. Worse case scenario, the engine crunches up some parts. It takes about 5 minutes to remove the TTS tune and return the ECM to stock with out leaving a trace. The non cat headpipe about an hour. Non compliant internal parts? You would have a better chance covering up Rosey O'Donell.

Steve@fullsac.com

spook120 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 10, 2017, 10:07:38 AM »

What he said!

skratch · « **Reply #15 on:** April 10, 2017, 02:47:46 PM »

that's all fine and dandy until you're 1000 miles from home and your bike decides to lunch itself. now you are either at the mercy of any local dealer, or trying to find some way to get your bike back home.

don't get me wrong, I am in no way advocating leaving your bike stock. I was just commenting on the tune/warranty thing....

Fullsac Performance · « **Reply #16 on:** April 10, 2017, 03:19:06 PM »

This is how I got my broken bike, myself and wife home 950 miles out. Insurance paid for it under towing.
Dealer couldn't get the part needed for 3 days. No thanks, gotta go.

Steve@fullsac.com

spook120 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 10, 2017, 03:52:26 PM »

The way I view life is that sometimes you decide to take a risk...kind of like self insure rather than $1000 per month high deductible health insurance.... In this case if the bike goes to sh*t I can write a check to cover the cost. Not to be disrespectful but I consider this warranty thing just a cost of doing business. Life is way to short to worry about a frikken motorcycle warranty claim.

Fullsac Performance · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2017, 05:28:21 PM »

Quote from: spook120 on April 10, 2017, 03:52:26 PM

The way I view life is that sometimes you decide to take a risk...kind of like self insure rather than $1000 per month high deductible health insurance.... In this case if the bike goes to sh*t I can write a check to cover the cost. Not to be disrespectful but I consider this warranty thing just a cost of doing business. Life is way to short to worry about a frikken motorcycle warranty claim.

110tHunDer · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2017, 05:50:13 PM »

Quote from: spook120 on April 08, 2017, 03:19:42 PM

MY dealer will still warranty his work no matter what tuner is used. But they won't if any non HD internals are used.

Quote from: spook120 on April 10, 2017, 03:52:26 PM

The way I view life is that sometimes you decide to take a risk...kind of like self insure rather than $1000 per month high deductible health insurance.... In this case if the bike goes to sh*t I can write a check to cover the cost. Not to be disrespectful but I consider this warranty thing just a cost of doing business. Life is way to short to worry about a frikken motorcycle warranty claim.

I'm confused. Are you concerned about voiding the warranty, or not?

Also, wouldn't the Stage 4 cam still increase power in the range you ride in at the same time it extends the power band?

spook120 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2017, 07:15:13 PM »

Yes and no. The warranty is there with the HD build but was not the determining factor in the build decisions. I may go to aftermarket cam when there is verified results and production availability. Until then the build is acceptable to me for what the bike is intended to do. The build moves the power band more to the left rather than in the upper RPM range and seems to have lost little horsepower in relationship to the total stage 4 build. All that said if for some odd reason I took the bike on a cross country trip and the nearest dealer will not warranty the build so be it. Again in all respect just because the build is honored by my dealer it is of little concern if it is not recognized by a different dealer.

Indenial · « **Reply #21 on:** April 14, 2017, 09:52:53 PM »

Means the guy can afford to play the way he wants. Good for him.

springer09 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 17, 2017, 10:27:16 AM »

wow sounds like you got better luck then me . i did stage 4 with short heave breather, vance and hines x pipe cfr slip ons , tts tuner and bike wont even pull out without coughing and shutting off, got to ride clutch to keep it running and once moving above 3000 rpms it takes off like a rocket , 2017 road glide m8 bike is almost unrideable , very disapoointed about this stage 4

CVOSGJoe · « **Reply #23 on:** April 17, 2017, 02:12:59 PM »

Quote from: springer09 on April 17, 2017, 10:27:16 AM

wow sounds like you got better luck then me . i did stage 4 with short heave breather, vance and hines x pipe cfr slip ons , tts tuner and bike wont even pull out without coughing and shutting off, got to ride clutch to keep it running and once moving above 3000 rpms it takes off like a rocket , 2017 road glide m8 bike is almost unrideable , very disapoointed about this stage 4

I am not so sure you should be holding a grudge of the Stage lV vs going after your tuner and sayin what the F did you do wrong. Yours is truly unlike any other Stage lV builds.
Here is one in particular.
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touring-models/1168273-17-cvo-limited-117-stage-iv-jackpot-headpipe-tune-128hp-128ftlbs.html

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1167025-new-head-pipe-4.html#post16108577

springer09 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 17, 2017, 05:14:37 PM »

yea joe looks good , mine is a 114 build , its not a cvo

110tHunDer · « **Reply #25 on:** April 17, 2017, 05:40:16 PM »

Quote from: Indenial on April 14, 2017, 09:52:53 PM

Means the guy can afford to play the way he wants. Good for him.

Totally agree. I was just a little confused by what seemed like two contrasting statements. I can see the two views after his last post. Not too unlike my T-Man build from a few years ago where my local dealer who did the build would've worked with me if something broke (at least within the first year or whatever). But, out on the road I'd have been SOL.

spook120 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 17, 2017, 06:07:42 PM »

Springer, sorry to hear about your difficulty with the build. As was stated unless you used a hodge podge of parts that are not compatible with each other it is all in the tune. It almost sounds as if you have a leak somewhere that is messing with the computer. Not sure about your build details, but if it is all HD then it is definitely something wrong with the tune. Your bike should pull from 2000 RPM without a hiccup. Get back to who did the build and tune and start asking some pointed questions. Good luck to you.

CVOSGJoe · « **Reply #27 on:** April 17, 2017, 08:28:15 PM »

Quote from: springer09 on April 17, 2017, 05:14:37 PM

yea joe looks good , mine is a 114 build , its not a cvo

I saw that your's is a 114". I was just showing that a Stage lV, 114 or 117, can run non Harley exhaust and an Non OEM tuner and truly run pretty damn sweet.
I would certainly be asking some questions and asking them to check things over.

SDCVO · « **Reply #28 on:** April 17, 2017, 11:46:15 PM »

Quote from: CVOSGJoe on April 17, 2017, 08:28:15 PM

I saw that your's is a 114". I was just showing that a Stage lV, 114 or 117, can run non Harley exhaust and an Non OEM tuner and truly run pretty damn sweet.
I would certainly be asking some questions and asking them to check things over.

Yea, definitely something wrong here. Bike never should have left the shop running like that.

Author Topic: Interesting stage 4 build... (Read 7482 times)