Topic: 2003 RK cvo 103 cam choice (Read 7456 times)

roadking321 · « **on:** March 29, 2017, 04:31:39 PM »

I'm getting ready to do a cam change on my '03 FLHRSEI2 (20k mi) - already bought the S&S cam plate, oil pump & quickee pushrods. The bike has a PCIII USB & Rinehart true duals & almost always ride 2 up w/ a tourpak for trips. Most of the time our trips include very little highway riding - typically state routes. I have a set of Andrews 21N cams in my other '00 RK & really like them but its a 95" w/ 1.9 int valves, bench flowed w/ 1.725 rocker ratio etc. (100 tq/80 hp). I want to know if there's a better cam set for me & this CVO 103. I have been told possibly Andrews 26N's but not sure. Woods cams are always mentioned as a good choice but not sure which set's for me. I'm not a big fan of H-D high perf parts so those are out.
Any suggestions are very much appreciated!
thanks,
Paul
PS - at this point I'd rather not pull the heads for bigger valves, springs & flow due to the current low miles. That may be something I do in the future - I'm trying to restrain myself & keep it semi-stock as opposed to what I've done to my other 3.

efrbc1 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2017, 08:24:47 PM »

If this is the same 103 motor that is in the 04 and 05 SEEG, the Zippers 575 is the way to go. Made for this motor and work well. Have them in my 05 and very happy with them.

Chris

Fired00d · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2017, 09:30:57 PM »

Quote from: efrbc1 on March 29, 2017, 08:24:47 PM

If this is the same 103 motor that is in the 04 and 05 SEEG, the Zippers 575 is the way to go. Made for this motor and work well. Have them in my 05 and very happy with them.

Chris

It is the same motor and X2 on the 575's I have them in mine and happy also.

Ride Safe,
Fired00d

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2017, 09:53:11 PM »

Put a very short cam in it such as an Andrews 48 or Cyclerama 575. This is a very low compression motor ~8.7:1

Twolanerider · « **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2017, 10:09:24 PM »

As much as I'm not a fan of the company can't disagree on the 575 cams from Zippers for the 103s. Installed a set in my own bike back a hundred years ago when the cams were first released and did the same in several other 103s since. It's always been a winner.

roadking321 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2017, 12:58:30 PM »

Quote from: HD Street Performance on March 29, 2017, 09:53:11 PM

Put a very short cam in it such as an Andrews 48 or Cyclerama 575. This is a very low compression motor ~8.7:1

Hey HD Street Performer, I talked to Wes Brown @ CycleRama yesterday - he told me that his CR 575 would not work w/o changing the valve springs but he was going to check with a buddy @ HD to see if those heads are the same as what he's thinking they are. I've read several times that the heads (CVO/SE 103 vs "regular" 103 heads) are different depending on what yr produced (here's one article - http://neverworld.net/socalnetscum/files/tech/HD_TC_IntakeFBStudyRel1.pdf) - Dwight Barry (Syke Performance) did a set of my heads on my '00 RK - so I'm waiting to hear what Wes tells me after talking to HD - I'll let you know.
thanks for the Zippers suggestion - I'll check em out - concerning the CR, HD in my specs says 9.0:1 - you may be correct & HD just rounded it to 9:1 - if I was pulling the heads, I'd use a .030 gasket for a slight bump

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #6 on:** March 30, 2017, 01:14:19 PM »

Wes may have been thinking OEM heads, the cvo has springs that are good to .600 lift. Same spring used on the cvo110
The cvo103 heads have the same port package as the SE performance MCR heads. We used to bolt those on with S&S 570's or 585s every day

Twolanerider · « **Reply #7 on:** March 30, 2017, 01:38:56 PM »

Quote from: roadking321 on March 30, 2017, 12:58:30 PM

Hey HD Street Performer, I talked to Wes Brown @ CycleRama yesterday - he told me that his CR 575 would not work w/o changing the valve springs but he was going to check with a buddy @ HD to see if those heads are the same as what he's thinking they are. I've read several times that the heads (CVO/SE 103 vs "regular" 103 heads) are different depending on what yr produced (here's one article - http://neverworld.net/socalnetscum/files/tech/HD_TC_IntakeFBStudyRel1.pdf) - Dwight Barry (Syke Performance) did a set of my heads on my '00 RK - so I'm waiting to hear what Wes tells me after talking to HD - I'll let you know.
thanks for the Zippers suggestion - I'll check em out - concerning the CR, HD in my specs says 9.0:1 - you may be correct & HD just rounded it to 9:1 - if I was pulling the heads, I'd use a .030 gasket for a slight bump

Not 100% sure I'm understanding all you might be suggesting. If it's a comparison of spring packs across different years of the 103 motor, however, that's an easy check. 2003 Road King's springs on the 103 are 18272-00 which is the same as the springs on a 2005 103 in a SEEG.

roadking321 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 30, 2017, 06:10:53 PM »

yea I have no idea that's why I'm asking you guys - I haven't & don't intend to pull the heads or even the rocker boxes at this time. it does make sense that the CVO heads have a different set of springs than the stock 103 but... Are the valves the same or diff size vs non CVO? - many discrepancies on the web I don't know what to believe & the MoCo doesn't put much info out. I have the parts manual for that bike as well as the service manual but all it states is a part number & no description - if those springs will accept a lift of .600 that's one of the items I needed to know - Thanks

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2017, 06:15:19 PM »

When you port the heads you see them all. The CVO 103 is a very different head than the oem 88. The parts books spell it out and include the spring numbers as proof. Get on the microfiche sites and look it up for yourself and then you can trust your own research.

johnsachs · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2017, 06:56:46 PM »

103 CVO heads with 1.900" intake valves have .600" lift springs..........
John

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2017, 09:18:07 AM »

These smart guys always say it better with less words, I need to take notes.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2017, 08:39:19 PM »

Getting my 103 worked on by HD-Dude at Metal Dragon. He suggested the 551 cams as they best match my double up touring style of riding. Lots of good usable low to mid-range torque.

roadking321 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 01, 2017, 03:01:23 AM »

HD Street Perf, i just saw your comment about Wes, yea i agree. I didn't think of taking the part number to the web - I know they only give a part number but not a specs like valve dimensions.
Chris thanks for the Zippers/Red Shift suggestion. I got the following from Pete @ Zippers:
We have an excellent cam choice for your CVO Road King!
The Red Shift 576 Cam.
This can was designed specifically for the CVO 103” Engines and will provide you with the TQ that you are looking for!
NOTE: The graph states that the cam used is the 575. The 576 is the revised version of the 575 to work with the dual springs that are in your heads. The numbers will be exactly the same but the 576 will run quieter in your engine. These heads have a dual spring and are NOT the beehive style springs. They also have heavier 5/16" valve stems. This is why we are recommending the 576 cams for this application. These heads flow more than a stock 103 head and the 575/576 was designed specifically for this engine.

John, thanks for those specs
At this point, think I may be going this route (RS 576) - from what I've seen on their site, they'll get better if I have a future comp bump & increased airflow.

Mikey · « **Reply #14 on:** April 03, 2017, 12:24:31 AM »

When my 2003 was new I had the stock head pipe, V & H can's, PCIII, and Zippers air filter it dyno'ed at 85HP. Freedom Cycle owner Brad Yuill had a hot CVO set up back in those years for the 103. At 15K I added the YB14SC cam's, gear drive, true dual Freedom exhaust and it dyno'ed at 103HP. It made it a really fun ride. It now has 37K and has'nt had any problems with that set up. Interesting that Freedom also had .575 cams but didn't use them on the CVO's?

Desertwndrr · « **Reply #15 on:** April 03, 2017, 11:37:04 PM »

Quote from: roadking321 on April 01, 2017, 03:01:23 AM

HD Street Perf, i just saw your comment about Wes, yea i agree. I didn't think of taking the part number to the web - I know they only give a part number but not a specs like valve dimensions.
Chris thanks for the Zippers/Red Shift suggestion. I got the following from Pete @ Zippers:
We have an excellent cam choice for your CVO Road King!
The Red Shift 576 Cam.
This can was designed specifically for the CVO 103” Engines and will provide you with the TQ that you are looking for!
NOTE: The graph states that the cam used is the 575. The 576 is the revised version of the 575 to work with the dual springs that are in your heads. The numbers will be exactly the same but the 576 will run quieter in your engine. These heads have a dual spring and are NOT the beehive style springs. They also have heavier 5/16" valve stems. This is why we are recommending the 576 cams for this application. These heads flow more than a stock 103 head and the 575/576 was designed specifically for this engine.

John, thanks for those specs
At this point, think I may be going this route (RS 576) - from what I've seen on their site, they'll get better if I have a future comp bump & increased airflow.

I have the 576 cam in a 2006 CVO Fatboy. The difference between the 575 and the 576 as it was explained to me was the shape of the ramps, which make the 576 a quieter cam. I can vouch for the 576 cam being a good match to the CVO103 motor. Runs great. Really quiet.

roadking321 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2017, 02:33:20 PM »

Desertwndrr, did you do any mods other than the cams? (valves, springs, flow?) I think yours was only available w/ EFI, correct? What fuel management are you using as well as exhaust? Do you have any dyno tuning info on what I can expect? thanks
Paul

Phaq2 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 15, 2017, 01:50:13 PM »

So what the cam of choice here? I have a friend's '04 bike in for tensioners lifters and he's thinking about cams? What about Andrews 48?
TIA

roadking321 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 15, 2017, 07:22:15 PM »

Phaq2, oh man, I'm still undecided- it depends on what kind of bike (weight of bike & load) & what type riding you do. Desertwnndr (FatBoy) really likes em but I'm waiting to hear from someone who has a touring bike. My concern is the late opening of 25* on a heavy bike - I hope somebody out there that's had say an Andrews 21N or similar like I do on my other Road King to give a thumbs up or down

Ironhorse · « **Reply #19 on:** April 15, 2017, 08:08:57 PM »

This is a good tool to use for cam spec comparisons.

http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/tccams.htm

After speaking with HD-Dude again, I'm going to go with the 583 cam. Comes on at 1,500 and pulls to 5,000. Good low end torque.

Phaq2 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 16, 2017, 07:05:42 AM »

Sorry....its an 04 Ultra 103. I did put the Andrews 21N conversion cams in another friend's 05 Ultra but that was a stock 88 cu. in. motor and he loves them.
Being the 04 is a 103 the heads have the 1.90 intake valves and the low compression is making me think about another grind here. The early intake close of 29 and short duration of 222 in the 48 I'm think would work in this motor with no other work other than a D&D Fat Cat.

Just saw HDSP post.....

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #21 on:** April 16, 2017, 11:09:42 AM »

330-0004 will work on the early chain drive, non-EZ start, and comes with an install kit

JCZ · « **Reply #22 on:** April 16, 2017, 11:15:03 AM »

Quote from: Mikey on April 03, 2017, 12:24:31 AM

When my 2003 was new I had the stock head pipe, V & H can's, PCIII, and Zippers air filter it dyno'ed at 85HP. Freedom Cycle owner Brad Yuill had a hot CVO set up back in those years for the 103. At 15K I added the YB14SC cam's, gear drive, true dual Freedom exhaust and it dyno'ed at 103HP. It made it a really fun ride. It now has 37K and has'nt had any problems with that set up. Interesting that Freedom also had .575 cams but didn't use them on the CVO's?

You can research it on this forum.....this was the cam most commonly used with the 103" on the 03-05 model year CVOs. They were all over this forum back in those years.

roadking321 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 21, 2017, 01:54:08 AM »

Ironhorse, those do look like a nice set of cams (583's) but I also saw the 551's so...

Ironhorse · « **Reply #24 on:** April 21, 2017, 08:39:53 AM »

Quote from: roadking321 on April 21, 2017, 01:54:08 AM

Ironhorse, those do look like a nice set of cams (583's) but I also saw the 551's so...

Like I said earlier, the 551s were my first choice.

But after talking with Jim (HD-Dude) we settled on the 583s. The way he explained it, whereas the 551s come on off idle, the 583s come on at 1500. And since I have to come off idle to get the bike moving, we decided to move the power band some 300-400 rpms. Plus, he said the exhaust valve on the 583 stays open a little longer, and that may help a little bit with heat. Maybe nothing you can feel on the side of your leg, but just a little. Either cam is a good choice for my style of 2-Up long haul riding.

I hope to get the bike back in a week or so. When I do I'll post the dyno numbers.

Mark

roadking321 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 25, 2017, 12:28:49 AM »

Ironhorse, I'd really love to see what the dyno sheet says & your opinion when you get the bike back. I emailed S&S tech dept - he said he thought my choice should be the 510's since i wouldn't need to change the springs (huh?) i mentioned I shouldn't need to & he replied the 583's should work well in the rpm range I'm looking for (1500-5000). Looking at the cam specs, I'm surprised S&S lists this as a cam for softftails/dynas. I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on a set. Did you do gears, hydro conversion or stay with stock chains?
thanks,
Paul

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #26 on:** April 25, 2017, 11:43:45 AM »

The 510 would not be a great choice but an improvement over stock. No spring change needed. An Andrews tw48 would be better than the S&S offerings but then we have my opinion pitted against the others. The other S&S cams are ok too but the 510 would not give the torque bump the others would.

roadking321 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 25, 2017, 04:38:39 PM »

HD SP, OK you have my attention & I'm listening - first of all I see you are a vendor, who do you represent, a manufacturer or performance shop? I've always read in the past that on a touring bike, its best to have an early opening cam for torque. From the specs I've seen the S&S 538 fits that spec better than the Andrews 48 - do you have experience in these cams on a touring bike? As I've said, I have a 21N in my other RK & really like it for the low end tq but the stock SE253 is also an early opening cam (7*) so I guess that shoots my initial theory. This is frustrating as hell since everybody has their own opinion but few have tried/used diff cams on the same bike & since almost any cam change will give better performance than the stock EPA friendly cams.
thanks

Ironhorse · « **Reply #28 on:** April 25, 2017, 06:13:14 PM »

I got an update from HD-Dude, it's coming together! Sticking with chain drive and updated tensioners. Dave "WrongWay", the previous owner installed a Fueling Cam Plate, so we'll be using that too.

hd-dude · « **Reply #29 on:** April 25, 2017, 06:20:46 PM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on April 25, 2017, 06:13:14 PM

I got an update from HD-Dude, it's coming together! Sticking with chain drive and updated tensioners. Dave "WrongWay", the previous owner installed a ~~Fueling Cam Plate~~ Screamin Eagle, so we'll be using that too.

It has the Screamin eagle hydro conversion kit....

Ironhorse · « **Reply #30 on:** April 25, 2017, 07:26:21 PM »

Quote from: hd-dude on April 25, 2017, 06:20:46 PM

It has the Screamin eagle hydro conversion kit....

Thanks Jim, if it wasn't for you, I'd have no idea what my components are,...lol! What's the difference between hydro conversion and Fueling? I just can't wait to ride it again.

hd-dude · « **Reply #31 on:** April 25, 2017, 07:49:55 PM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on April 25, 2017, 07:26:21 PM

Thanks Jim, if it wasn't for you, I'd have no idea what my components are,...lol! What's the difference between hydro conversion and Fueling? I just can't wait to ride it again.

Its the updated chain tensioner system.Fueling has similar kits available.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #32 on:** May 10, 2017, 07:17:45 PM »

Quote from: roadking321 on April 25, 2017, 12:28:49 AM

Ironhorse, I'd really love to see what the dyno sheet says & your opinion when you get the bike back. I emailed S&S tech dept - he said he thought my choice should be the 510's since i wouldn't need to change the springs (huh?) i mentioned I shouldn't need to & he replied the 583's should work well in the rpm range I'm looking for (1500-5000). Looking at the cam specs, I'm surprised S&S lists this as a cam for softftails/dynas. I think I'm ready to pull the trigger on a set. Did you do gears, hydro conversion or stay with stock chains?
thanks,
Paul

Paul,

Here's the dyno sheet. I know I could have gotten bigger numbers with a 107 kit, larger throttle body, and head work. However my main focus with this build was a well mannered engine that would go another trouble free 80k miles. Not having had any other cams in there other than the stock SE 253s, I can't give you a seat of the pants comparison to 551s, 575 or anything else.

What I can tell you is that the engine is smooth. I'm not too sure if the smoothness is the balanced, welded, and pinned crankshaft, the cams, the 2-1 exhaust, dyno tune, or new front motor mount. It's probably the result of all of those as built by Jim. The power is right in the area where I ride. Cruising at 80mph in 5th gear at 3,000 rpms the engine runs smooth and effortlessly. Just a roll of the throttle will move me quickly enough. Is it a head snapping pull when I roll on the throttle,..no. But it's more than I need, or I should say it's what I need. I am still enamored with the smoothness. I do a lot of slow speed motor-cop cone work, so I didn't want an engine that was loping along at lower rpms.

I can't say enough of the work that HD-Dude did at Metal Dragon. I went in with high hopes, and have not been disappointed.

Hope this helps.

Mark

roadking321 · « **Reply #33 on:** May 11, 2017, 01:33:00 AM »

Hey Mark, thanks for the dynosheet! Looking at the sheet, it sure does have a nice flat torque line right from 1500 or so & I like the 113 tq but am sorta surprised the hp isn't just a little higher than 95 but I'm I looking for that vs hp anyway. I'm sure the bottom end work you had done did make a big diff in the smoothness of the engine. I'm not digging into mine to that extent otherwise I'd have some head work done. You'll also get better numbers due to the 2-1 exhaust - I like what they do, I'm just not thrilled with the sound of most compared to the Rineharts I have. Did you get the regular or easy start 583's? Also what kind of fuel management are you running? Power Commander, Fuel Pak or what?
thanks

Ironhorse · « **Reply #34 on:** May 14, 2017, 10:36:08 AM »

Quote from: roadking321 on May 11, 2017, 01:33:00 AM

Hey Mark, thanks for the dynosheet! Looking at the sheet, it sure does have a nice flat torque line right from 1500 or so & I like the 113 tq but am sorta surprised the hp isn't just a little higher than 95 but I'm I looking for that vs hp anyway. I'm sure the bottom end work you had done did make a big diff in the smoothness of the engine. I'm not digging into mine to that extent otherwise I'd have some head work done. You'll also get better numbers due to the 2-1 exhaust - I like what they do, I'm just not thrilled with the sound of most compared to the Rineharts I have. Did you get the regular or easy start 583's? Also what kind of fuel management are you running? Power Commander, Fuel Pak or what?
thanks

Paul,

I think I got the EZ Start cams. This was done to avoid having to install compression releases. I am using the TTS Mastertune on it. I also had Jim install O2 sensors in the pipes so the system can make small adjustments as needed.

Mark

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #35 on:** May 14, 2017, 11:34:54 AM »

Since when does a motor with 8.7:1 compression need compression releases?
That said 95hp and a great torque curve would satisfy most but the guys that want bragging rights with higher HP.
For those the compression needs to go up, a longer cam, and head work done.

roadking321 · « **Reply #36 on:** May 14, 2017, 12:56:07 PM »

Yea you make a great point - I hadn't thought about the relatively low compression but I'm still thinking of buying the easy start with future potential of head work &/or HC pistons. I always hate buying parts then changing direction. I just pulled off a cool Ness diamond cam cover on my '85 FXRS after about 1000 mi cuz it won't fit w the Carlini torque arm I had on it previously. I have 10.25:1 JE/Edelbrock pistons/RPM heads in it & it definitely grunts a bit before wanting to start (no comp releases).

hd-dude · « **Reply #37 on:** May 14, 2017, 08:28:26 PM »

Mark, We did not use ez start cams on this build. Not needed.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #38 on:** May 15, 2017, 08:33:36 AM »

LOL,....I feel like a kid who didn't do his homework,...if it wasn't for HD-Dude and his postings, I really wouldn't know what I have. What I do know is the results, and they are more than in line with what I expected. I still can't get over how smooth it runs.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #39 on:** May 15, 2017, 01:30:59 PM »

Quote from: Mikey on April 03, 2017, 12:24:31 AM

When my 2003 was new I had the stock head pipe, V & H can's, PCIII, and Zippers air filter it dyno'ed at 85HP. Freedom Cycle owner Brad Yuill had a hot CVO set up back in those years for the 103. At 15K I added the YB14SC cam's, gear drive, true dual Freedom exhaust and it dyno'ed at 103HP. It made it a really fun ride. It now has 37K and has'nt had any problems with that set up. Interesting that Freedom also had .575 cams but didn't use them on the CVO's?

Mikey,

I have the YB13 in my wife's 04 pumpkin and have 85k miles on it, but note it was gear drive only back then dunno if that has changed with Brad. The cams yb13/14 are great cams provided you like to run in higher rpm's had the 14's in my 07 SEUC but again was a late bloomer for power. The Zippers 575 hit low and hard and are great for touring on a 800+ motorcycle. I had these also in several bikes and would by far recommend them for the avg guy looking to enjoy his cvo 103 motor.

Author Topic: 2003 RK cvo 103 cam choice (Read 7456 times)