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[HUBBARD]

I rode from Seattle back to the Nc with Don this year on the Petty Charity Ride. He is one heck of a LD Rider.
Ask him about the fog the rain and the free range cows on the Big Horn Mountains.
Dave

Yeah, 'er 'uh, DavidB,
  He invited me to go on that ride, but some of us have to work for a livin'!  [smiley=furious2.gif] We were in deep conversation last Thursday, when the power went off, and he had to close up shop.  He's pretty much all healed up now, and ready to get back on a Dresser.  He's a Trooper, no doubt.  I could sit and listen to him all day.  From his stories about racing against Richard Petty, Ned Jarrett, Ralph Earnhart and Cale Yarbrough, right up to the present day.  He's just an an amazing Man!  Later--HUBBARD    

[HUBBARD]

Yeah, er, uh, BLM777,
  Talked to Neal Taylor, my Engine Builder at Tilley's, this a.m.  It appears my gut told me right, yet again.  Ol' Maudie had one valve keeper broken, but in place.  Wouldn't have been for long, though.  That would have been BIG!  Valve seats, loose.  No big deal, but loose.  Front tensioner, shoe scarred, but intact.  Rear tensioner, shoe gone, chain riding on the metal.  Oil pump, junked out.  That's why the Oil Pressure didn't come immediately, when OTIS and I loaded her up to go.  Ol' girl couldn't have survived much longer.  Cam shoes were scheduled for inspection @ 15K miles, but something kept tellin' me do it now.  Tilley suggested the RedShift Gear Drives from Zipper's, and I agreed.  I'll post all failed parts when I bring the Ol' Girl home.  Man, it feels good to catch it before it blows all to hell!  Wish I had that talent with Women!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD    

[Twolanerider]

Hub, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.  Just glad it got caught now rather than 200 miles later and 150 miles away from home.  Sounds like the bike gave you a Christmas present all by herself.

And, of course, before and after comparisons on the cams; PLEASE !

[spydglide]

 Man, it feels good to catch it before it blows all to hell!  Wish I had that talent with Women!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD    

Hub, you are you lucky so & so!  Good timing on taking ole Maudie in for a check-up.  And my guess is that you did and still do, you just won't listen to yourself.  Har!  spyder

[HUBBARD]

Hub, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.  Just glad it got caught now rather than 200 miles later and 150 miles away from home.  Sounds like the bike gave you a Christmas present all by herself.

And, of course, before and after comparisons on the cams; PLEASE !

It will be done!  Later--HUBBARD

[HUBBARD]

Hub, you are you lucky so & so!  Good timing on taking ole Maudie in for a check-up.  And my guess is that you did and still do, you just won't listen to yourself.  Har!  spyder

Brilliant deduction, my Good Man!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD

[OTIS]

I'am one of the few people that knows what Maudie has been through if she would have blew Hubbard you couldn't complain she's been wide open for 2 yrs.

                                  OTIS [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[BadAss2]

How much of these failures can be related to rpm during the life of these tensioner shoes? Hub, do you live in the 4000 plus rpm range over the 9600 miles on your set? Is it rpm that wears some out at 9000 miles, yet some are going 50,000 to see this much wear? I'm at 20,000KM( 12,500 miles). Use HD synthetic 3. Changed oil at 1000, 5000, and 10,000. Cut open every filter and media has been clean. Really am going to talk to my dealer about this. Have the 7 year warranty. Hopefully that covers my butt.

[BLM777]

Yeah, er, uh, BLM777,
  Talked to Neal Taylor, my Engine Builder at Tilley's, this a.m.  It appears my gut told me right, yet again.  Ol' Maudie had one valve keeper broken, but in place.  Wouldn't have been for long, though.  That would have been BIG!  Valve seats, loose.  No big deal, but loose.  Front tensioner, shoe scarred, but intact.  Rear tensioner, shoe gone, chain riding on the metal.  Oil pump, junked out.  That's why the Oil Pressure didn't come immediately, when OTIS and I loaded her up to go.  Ol' girl couldn't have survived much longer.  Cam shoes were scheduled for inspection @ 15K miles, but something kept tellin' me do it now.  Tilley suggested the RedShift Gear Drives from Zipper's, and I agreed.  I'll post all failed parts when I bring the Ol' Girl home.  Man, it feels good to catch it before it blows all to hell!  Wish I had that talent with Women!  [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] Later--HUBBARD    

That's some scary chit, Hub.  I'm about getting to the point where the cam gets changed to gear drive as one of the first priorities on bikes I'm keeping for a while.  I've always figured that there was 15-20K grace period with those nasty little "shoes", but am seeing more and more that some are letting go waaaaay early.  Really looking forward to watching ol' Maudie run with the RedShift setup.

[syclone]

How much of these failures can be related to rpm during the life of these tensioner shoes? Hub, do you live in the 4000 plus rpm range over the 9600 miles on your set? Is it rpm that wears some out at 9000 miles, yet some are going 50,000 to see this much wear? I'm at 20,000KM( 12,500 miles). Use HD synthetic 3. Changed oil at 1000, 5000, and 10,000. Cut open every filter and media has been clean. Really am going to talk to my dealer about this. Have the 7 year warranty. Hopefully that covers my butt.

Hub's tensioner wear is because he has a very agressive cam with lots of lift..and ..the high pressure valve springs needed to get the valves closed before they get friendly with a piston top. Lot more pressure on the lifter..more pressure on the cam lobes..more stress on the cam chains to turn the cams...more pressure and stress on the tensioner blocks....lots of wear.
He'll be good to go with the gear drive...Red shift 657's I bet...
Of course, the fact that Hub has to down shift to slow the bike from "light speed" because his brakes pads long ago told him " F-you..we aint takin this anymore" ..Just might have something to do with it!

[BLM777]

Hub's tensioner wear is because he has a very agressive cam with lots of lift..

Got to disagree on that observation.  Looked at an '05 dyna in the shop this past weekend with 5100 on the odometer and a trashed stock 88....source of the problem....cam shoes!  I've know the bike and the lady that owns it since new.  Probably not a better maintained, easily ridden scoot in the country.  My observations....CHAIN DRIVE=JUNK.  Sorry, HD.

[Fired00d]

This chit is scary. I had gear drive cams on my wish list and after seeing and reading all the information that is here and other places it has definitely moved up on the priority list. It amazes me that the MoCo is still putting chain drives in our bikes. You would think after a couple times replacing/repairing these (and in some cases doing major motor work because of the complications due to failure) that they would go to gear drive from factory. I've heard that there is a little more noise associated with gear drive vs. chain drive and was wondering is that the reason they don't? [smiley=confused5.gif] But for most of us we have upgraded our factory exhaust anyway so is the difference that noticeable? Either way I will be going to gear drives sooner then later.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[grc]

This chit is scary. I had gear drive cams on my wish list and after seeing and reading all the information that is here and other places it has definitely moved up on the priority list. It amazes me that the MoCo is still putting chain drives in our bikes. [highlight]You would think after a couple times replacing/repairing these (and in some cases doing major motor work because of the complications due to failure) that they would go to gear drive from factory[/highlight]. I've heard that there is a little more noise associated with gear drive vs. chain drive and was wondering is that the reason they don't? [smiley=confused5.gif] But for most of us we have upgraded our factory exhaust anyway so is the difference that noticeable? Either way I will be going to gear drives sooner then later.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

Fired00d,

It would be nice if they would go back to gears, but it really shouldn't be necessary.  Seems rather strange to me that I've owned 3 SUV type vehicles with overhead cams, chains, and tensioners with zero problems, and based on warranty data my experience is typical.  The auto industry seems to be able to make tensioners that last the life of the engine, so there is no legitimate reason H-D can't do the same.  IMHO, this is another case of $$$ being more important than reliability or customer satisfaction to H-D.  Yes, in theory gear drive is slightly noiser than chain, so H-D would have to reduce noise elsewhere to meet noise standards.  There are plenty of other areas they could do that without reducing the reliability of the engine.

Jerry

[Fired00d]

Fired00d,

It would be nice if they would go back to gears, but it really shouldn't be necessary.  Seems rather strange to me that I've owned 3 SUV type vehicles with overhead cams, chains, and tensioners with zero problems, and based on warranty data my experience is typical.  [highlight]The auto industry seems to be able to make tensioners that last the life of the engine, so there is no legitimate reason H-D can't do the same.  IMHO, this is another case of $$$ being more important than reliability or customer satisfaction to H-D.[/highlight]  Yes, in theory gear drive is slightly noiser than chain, so H-D would have to reduce noise elsewhere to meet noise standards.  There are plenty of other areas they could do that without reducing the reliability of the engine.


Jerry

Jerry,
Seems here again we have a "quality" issue  or as you put it $$$ issue. It's not rocket science but shouldn't they know we pay good money for "inferior" product, then why wouldn't we pay more for a quality product out the door? I guess they are looking at numbers (how many bikes are in production with chain drive vs. how many have the failure), and when they don't have high enough failures they don't believe there is a problem. But if they would truly look at the numbers I would like to see how many bikes in production with chain drive, still have chain drive. One thing for sure is you can't have a chain drive/tensioner failure with gear drive cams. [smiley=confused5.gif] As you stated chain drive cams with better quality chain tensioners seem to work well on autos w/o failures, why can't we have them on our scooters?

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[syclone]

Got to disagree on that observation.  Looked at an '05 dyna in the shop this past weekend with 5100 on the odometer and a trashed stock 88....source of the problem....cam shoes!  I've know the bike and the lady that owns it since new.  Probably not a better maintained, easily ridden scoot in the country.  My observations....CHAIN DRIVE=JUNK.  Sorry, HD.

That 5100 mile bike could also be riding style...lugging the motor...chugging around in too low a gear for the given rpm will also result in lots of chain slap....same thing you can see in the bottom span of the rear drive belt as it hops up and down as you ride behind and to the side of the guy that just has to run 2000 rpm in fifth gear cause it "sounds " good.
Now I'm not saying it should happen... but it does and thats why we're all waiting on Zippers.
If the slack or play never changed on the chain ...dependent on loading and turning effort..there would be no need for a tensioner. We've all heard of these guys with real high mileage bikes.. 03's and 04's with 50-60000 miles with tensioners that show realitively little wear. Thats because the motor sits at 3,000 rpm rolling down the highway under a constant/continous/unvaring load....little shifting for the amount of miles on the bike...less abuse on the tensioners.
A motor like Hubbards with 180 lb CLOSED pressure springs will put lots more load on the face of the lobe as it tries to force the lifter up to open the valve. So the effort to turn the cam goes up , and the chain pushes harder against the tensioner. Then when it drops off the nose of the big ramp on the cam..all that load disappears suddenly..then starts all over again.
Just not as much abuse with a stock cam with .479 lift and soft springs. Unless you're constantly lugging the the motor and rattling the chains.
It's a Sh*tty design as we all agree....thats a bomb waiting to happen with agressive ramps and high pressure springs.