Topic: H-D's big secret for 2007 (Read 6049 times)

SPIDERMAN · « **on:** October 28, 2006, 06:15:44 PM »

Just got back from the weekly free BBQ at my local dealer. As is my usual practice, I hung out with the Asst Service Mgr and the Asst Parts Mgr and of course they asked about my trip and how I liked the new 07 etc. The subject rolled around to how well the ECM adjusted to Screamin Eagle mufflers and a K & N air filter without any re-map. Ssshhhhh

FR8TRN · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2006, 08:18:59 PM »

It can adjust up to a point, but for heavy mods it will need a remap. Even with light mods like pipes and air kit, a remap wouldn't be a bad idea, here is why.

If the ECM has an adjustment range of 6 in either direction, then it's good from -6 to +6, if your mods put it near the edge, say it's at +5 now at x RPM, if you go into an area that the O2 sensor tells the ECM to adjust it up a couple points (due to elevation or whatever), you no longer have a couple points to go up, and you'll start running lean....or rich, whatever the case may be. If you remap you've now got your ECM back to a 0 point (or close to it) and it once again has a range of 6 in either direction.

beerman · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2006, 08:36:50 PM »

Well, IMHO, you're both right, to a point
Yes, I've been told that minor mods will not req a remap, but Freighttrain is correct as well.
the big question is do you want to spend a whole lot a' $$ for the right to be 100% correct or are you happy with a resonable gain without a whole lot of money?? ( slip-ons, pipes, air cleaner)
To each his own
BTW - Fr8trn - you're about the only bagger guy I've ever seen actually RIDE a bike around a corner - Good Grief !! You need a new Sportster XR1200 their showing in Europe !!
Beerman

grc · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2006, 08:37:44 PM »

There's another reason a remap would be a good idea.

SPIDERMAN · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2006, 10:59:12 PM »

Hey guys,
I'm no techie. When y'all start talking about this esoteric chit about + this and - that, I get a little glassy eyed. I'm an old time gear head. All I'm sayin in my post is what I heard at my dealer today and that is that a stage 1 breather kit and set of perfomance mufflers do not require a re-map or a SERTon an 2007 model. Y'all can argue this 20 ways from Tuesday and I wouldn't know what to think. However, I have a older style SE Breather kit that will fit and a set of Hooker muffs gathering dust in the garage and I'm gonna spend the 45 minutes or so it'll take me to put em on Los Dragon and see what happens. If it runs good here in the neighborhood I'll run it up to 6,200 ft on Mt. Laguna and see how it goes there. If that works out good then I'll spring for new 07 breather and a new set of slip ons. If it sucks, I'll take it apart and go back to the K&N filter and 03 Screamin Eagle muffs I've got on it at the moment. At the most I spend a couple hours of wrench time to prove myself right or wrong.

Big B

SPIDERMAN · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2006, 11:03:39 PM »

Quote

Well, IMHO, you're both right, to a point
Yes, I've been told that minor mods will not req a remap, but Freighttrain is correct as well.
the big question is do you want to spend a whole lot a' $$ for the right to be 100% correct or are you happy with a resonable gain without a whole lot of money?? ( slip-ons, pipes, air cleaner)
To each his own
BTW - Fr8trn - you're about the only bagger guy I've ever seen actually RIDE a bike around a corner - Good Grief !! You need a new Sportster XR1200 their showing in Europe !!
Beerman

Beerman,
Check out the pictures section under Maggie Valley. There's about 100 of us running The Tail of the Dragon and layin them big baggers down in the corners. C'ept me of course since I'm the Yellow Line Bandit. 8-)

Big B

beerman · « **Reply #6 on:** October 29, 2006, 07:39:04 AM »

Big B
Ok - I have seen the light - actually - the lack of light coming from under a Bagger laid over on a corner in MV !! Nice Pictures !
The only guys ridng like that up here in Ohio are Cops !
BTW - it's high 30's and freezing rain / sleet in N Ohio last night. I took the opportunity to fire up the 1982 BMW R65 and let it idle a while - she gets the all white antique lic. plates next year to match my all white hair I quess
also - brand new 07 FXSTSSE in Blue on the floor at South East Harley in Cleveland, along side a new Dyna SE bike as well - snow's scaring the buyers off?

Shodan01 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 29, 2006, 12:18:16 PM »

I thought the same with slips - as the slips fit within the 6 percent difference. I changed headers, and breather -

THE ULTRA had a stock breather ! ! ! so the 6 percent rule is WAY OUT OF WHACK !

The bike runs much better with the SERT in place with the Zippers, Headers and Slips...

SPIDERMAN · « **Reply #8 on:** October 29, 2006, 01:12:09 PM »

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I thought the same with slips - as the slips fit within the 6 percent difference.

naitram · « **Reply #9 on:** October 29, 2006, 01:49:36 PM »

B,

one thing to factor is where are you know? by that i mean no 2 motors are truly identical and if an ideal basleine is sitting on 0 and you have room to auto adjust +/- 6 then small changes should be fine, but what if your setup is near the far end of spec already if your base line is already +/- 5 thats where you could run into a problem

SPIDERMAN · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2006, 02:21:32 PM »

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B,

one thing to factor is where are you know? by that i mean no 2 motors are truly identical and if an ideal basleine is sitting on 0 and you have room to auto adjust +/- 6 then small changes should be fine, but what if your setup is near the far end of spec already if your base line is already +/- 5 thats where you could run into a problem

Neil,
I understand what you're saying, but how do I find out where I am now? Try to remember I'm a gearhead and not a techie. Beags is my technogenius and he's still off doing his Martha Stewart impersonation. His bike has not moved from my garage in - - - -hmmmmm 7 weeks I think.

Thanks
B B

Twolanerider · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2006, 02:26:26 PM »

Quote

Neil,

naitram · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2006, 02:34:04 PM »

like 2lane said you cant really find that out without some diagnostic time, and if you are going to spend $$$$$$ to find out if you dont have to spend $$$$$$ you might just be better served spending it on the SERT in the first place

FR8TRN · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2006, 04:25:08 PM »

Just as a side note here, I picked 6 randomly, I don't actually how far the ECM can adjust, but I do know it's a very limited amount.

Thanks Beerman, but I know lots of bagger riders that push these things to the limits.

grc · « **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2006, 05:11:30 PM »

Many dealerships with dyno's run specials, such as one I saw recently: "One dyno run, $45.00".

SPIDERMAN · « **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2006, 06:48:33 PM »

Well here's where I'm at. Got the Hooker slip-ons installed (squeezed em down a bit from where they were at on a 103) No Stage 1 breather, only the K & N replacement for the stock air filter. Air flow in shouldn not be that much greater. Air flow out certainly is. Rode around the neighborhood a bit and let the motor heat up till the oil temp read 220. Then I pounded it through the gears. Went up one small hill, maybe 1,000 feet to see if that had any effect (nyet) I'll try to get out to Mt Laguna later in the week. I have to say it feels like the torque is up a decent amount. The top end seems about the same. No hicups or sneezes or coughs. Pops a little on decel as do all slip-ons with stock head pipes. Heat from the rear pipe seems a lot less. Sounds a lot better too. Unless it starts runnin ragged, I think this is good till I get around to the 103 upgrade.

Shodan01 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 29, 2006, 09:29:30 PM »

The biggest concern I had was temp. I had hoped to cool it down a bit. I do feel a bit more power out of it....it feels stronger in the lower RPM's.....

Who knows - if it is in my head...that is all that matters....

poast that, I hope to have it dyno tuned when my dealer gets it up and ready.....

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #17 on:** October 29, 2006, 09:40:46 PM »

Here's what the guy (Jamie) says about the 07 systems...take it for whatever grain of salt you choose...

Here's the link for the whole picture:

http://www.fuelmotousa.com/

Because of the large amount of questions I receive about the O2 sensors and all of the incorrect information we have seen on the 07 Harley EFI, I will further explain how the closed loop EFI system works on the Harley Delphi system and why Dynojet has developed the Power Commander with O2 sensor eliminators. First I will start by explaining how the narrowband O2 sensor works. Keep in mind the O2 sensor is only one of the many sensors which monitor engine functions in the EFI system. The narrowband O2 sensor can only accurately measure a small area within 14.7:1 stoichiometric air/fuel ratio range and works by providing a voltage signal to the ECM which then will continuously monitor the stoichiometric mid point crossover and adjust accordingly until the A/F is in the 14.7:1 range. The ECM is only using the O2 sensor feedback signal when the system is in closed loop mode. Closed loop mode occurs only under certain conditions which are light load, steady speed part throttle, constant mode under 3500 RPM's. It is only after these conditions that the will EFI go into closed loop mode and the ECM will adjust until the O2 crossover point is in the 14.7:1 A/F range. This is not at idle, not while accelerating, and certainly not at full throttle. Simply put, an narrowband O2 sensor only works for adjusting low load/cruise area and does not work well in performance applications because it can only monitor a small area within the stoichiometric A/F range. With that being said, yes the EFI can adjust itself on the 07 Harley models. That is if you consider the small amount of time it is in closed loop, and then when the ECM is able to adjust A/F it can only adjust it to 14.7:1 which is WAY too lean. For reasonable performance and drivability this 14.7:1 A/F is extremely lean and this is the reason for the 07 bikes to run very hot with poor drivability. This condition gets even worse when you change your exhaust or air cleaner. Optimum A/F ratio for cruise area is 13.4-13.6:1 and 12.8-13.2:1 for wide open throttle. When you install an aftermarket EFI module (regardless of manufacturer) you will need to eliminate the O2 sensors with eliminators that send a fixed signal. This will prevent the EFI from going into closed loop mode and you will be able to tune to an optimum A/F ratio for the bike to run properly, otherwise the stock O2 sensors and closed loop mode will try to lean the mixture within the 14.7:1 range. Even with the Harley Screamin Eagle Race Tuner in which you can retain the O2 sensors, again you can still only work within the stoichiometric range in which the O2 sensors can measure. Dynojet certainly has the technology to develop a Power Commander for the Harley models with a Wideband sensor that replaces the stock O2 sensor which would be able to tune in real time to target A/F ratios, Power modes etc.. although with the relatively simple design of the Harley/Delphi injection the current Power Commander USB is more than capable of adjusting what we need to adjust at the moment. Keep in mind in Japanese applications the Power Commander is widely used as well in EFI systems that are far more complex with technology such as Dual ECU's, computer controlled secondary throttle blades, multiple staged injectors for each cylinder, fly by wire throttle and for 2007 computer variable intake length. From our experience tuning bikes everyday we know the Power Commander is the best EFI module available and works like no other to effectively adjust the EFI in the full range of RPM's and throttle positions, including the light load/steady cruise areas. Keep in mind that our maps are developed using different modes for light load/cruise area and for upper RPM full throttle performance. We have seen excellent results on the 2007 bikes and hope this has helped with any questions.
Thank you.......Jamie

arcticdude · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2006, 01:46:02 PM »

I'd have to completely agree with Jamie's statements after yesterday. I came back across I-40 from Checotah to Oklahoma City (exit 264 to exit 140) in just over an hour (1:15 to be exact- I had a couple of "fuzz busters" in front of me). My bike ran fine as long as I wasn't trying to accelerate. Even slight acceleration or hill climibing created pinging and knocking out the wazoo. I could even get it to ping downhill! While I was certainly running the bike hard, IF the stock system had been a true full time closed loop system, it should have adjusted for the speed/load, stopping the pinging and knocking. It seems as though were "still in the 70's" for those who remember the early computer systems on the cars back then. It's sad to think you need to put a Power Commander (or the like) on a bone stock bike, just to get it to run properly.

Robmay · « **Reply #19 on:** October 30, 2006, 03:18:56 PM »

Sounds good. However......... with a SERT you can adjust to cruise at the specs Jamie suggests and then some. I think a race tuner is a good investment. Why would I want to buy a bike with closed loop technology and then close it off and manipulate the injector duty cycle? Just doesn't make sense. I can ask the SERT to give me 13.4-1 at cruise and 12.8-1 at WOT.

The beauty of the SERT is that I can not only change the AF ratio based on Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) and Throttle Position Angle (TP) BUT I can also adjust ignition timing at any RPM at any throttle position. Can I not??

FURTHERMORE..... If I am going to "true duals" I can adjust the AF ratio INDIVIDUALLY on each cylinder by using SERT Volumetric Effiency tables (VE).

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2006, 03:46:34 PM »

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Sounds good. However......... with a SERT you can adjust to cruise at the specs Jamie suggests and then some. I think a race tuner is a good investment. Why would I want to buy a bike with closed loop technology and then close it off and manipulate the injector duty cycle? Just doesn't make sense. I can ask the SERT to give me 13.4-1 at cruise and 12.8-1 at WOT.

The beauty of the SERT is that I can not only change the AF ratio based on Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) and Throttle Position Angle (TP) BUT I can also adjust ignition timing at any RPM at any throttle position. Can I not??

FURTHERMORE..... If I am going to "true duals" I can adjust the AF ratio INDIVIDUALLY on each cylinder by using SERT Volumetric Effiency tables (VE).

[highlight]Even with the Harley Screamin Eagle Race Tuner in which you can retain the O2 sensors, again you can still only work within the stoichiometric range in which the O2 sensors can measure.[/highlight]

Guess that's the unknown variable in this particular equation...are the sensors even CAPABLE of measuring much on either side of the lean map the ECM is originally set up with, and if you put the SERT on, what's REALLY going on under all operating conditions? Is the SERT "taking control" all the time, or does it allow the system to attempt self-calibration under certain conditions, and if so, adjusts to what parameters? The T-Max true closed loop is the ulitimate solution, though I'll bet that a PCIII closed loop is not far behind...

Twolanerider · « **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2006, 03:53:43 PM »

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The T-Max true closed loop is the ulitimate solution,

Lordy I hope so. Now if we could just get parts.... [smiley=nixweiss.gif] .

FR8TRN · « **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2006, 04:04:18 PM »

Thanks for the info TCN, thats good to know. Now what is needed is someone to come up with, or figure out which existing O2 sensors will correct this A/F to the correct range, and an ECM that will keep the system in Closed Loop regardless of load/RPM or other variables. Makes me kinda glad I held onto my '06 now.

arcticdude · « **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2006, 04:04:58 PM »

Maybe the setup to have if you want the SERT is to use wide band O2's instead of the narrow's. That would eliminate the potential limiting factor of the narrow O2's, yet still retain the closed loop functions.

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2006, 04:05:39 PM »

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Lordy I hope so.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #25 on:** October 30, 2006, 04:12:52 PM »

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No doubt it will be Don...I know you are anxious to get all the new goodies on your bike...you guys don't have to park 'em for extended periods in MO do you?

Twolanerider · « **Reply #26 on:** October 30, 2006, 04:15:20 PM »

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Maybe the setup to have if you want the SERT is to use wide band O2's instead of the narrow's.

hd-dude · « **Reply #27 on:** October 30, 2006, 04:23:01 PM »

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Sounds good. However......... with a SERT you can adjust to cruise at the specs Jamie suggests and then some. I think a race tuner is a good investment. Why would I want to buy a bike with closed loop technology and then close it off and manipulate the injector duty cycle? Just doesn't make sense. I can ask the SERT to give me 13.4-1 at cruise and 12.8-1 at WOT.

The beauty of the SERT is that I can not only change the AF ratio based on Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) and Throttle Position Angle (TP) BUT I can also adjust ignition timing at any RPM at any throttle position. Can I not??

FURTHERMORE..... If I am going to "true duals" I can adjust the AF ratio INDIVIDUALLY on each cylinder by using SERT Volumetric Effiency tables (VE).

Setting the AF for different targets is the one thing that the SERT does the the PCIII does not. You can do the cylinders individually and you have the ability to adjust the ignition timing.

grc · « **Reply #28 on:** October 30, 2006, 05:10:45 PM »

Typically, a narrow-band sensor system can only notify the ECM that the mixture is lean or rich compared to the stoichiometric 14.7 ratio.

grc · « **Reply #29 on:** October 30, 2006, 05:16:14 PM »

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Setting the AF for different targets is the one thing that the SERT does the the PCIII does not. You can do the cylinders individually and you have the ability to adjust the ignition timing.

Jim,

With the latest PC firmware and software you can also adjust timing, and if you promote the map to "advanced" you can set the mixture and the timing separately for each cylinder. Not quite the same as a SERT, but in the hands of a good tuner it should be more than adequate.

Jerry

hd-dude · « **Reply #30 on:** October 30, 2006, 05:38:54 PM »

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Jim,

With the latest PC firmware and software you can also adjust timing, and if you promote the map to "advanced" you can set the mixture and the timing separately for each cylinder.

Robmay · « **Reply #31 on:** October 31, 2006, 02:25:50 PM »

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Midnight Rider · « **Reply #32 on:** October 31, 2006, 02:59:45 PM »

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Why? You keep telling me that the SERT will only do within certain parameters, yet no one seems to know what that is.

I only say it's the ultimate solution because it is the only system out there with two sensors, to my knowledge, that truly has the ability to constantly self-tune, regardless of the running conditions/load, and is in closed loop mode ALL THE TIME. In addition, from what I'm reading about it, there will be available (in the near future) an adjustment that will allow you to set an A/F ratio (though I'm sure it will be limited to some extent) for fuel milage or performance, and anywhere in-between, without being plugged into a computer. I'm sure that a Dynojet system won't be far behind, as the market for this type of product is simply too lucrative to pass up. As long as a SERT is tied to the original ECM, as it exists at this point in time, just like the PCIII, will never be a true closed loop system, and to be dead-on the money (or A/F ratio across all throttle postions) will still need to be dyno'd to know what's happening.

That is my understanding, but I'm certainly no expert and will defer to those with more extensive knowledge.

SPIDERMAN · « **Reply #33 on:** November 01, 2006, 06:51:44 PM »

Here's the latest on my 07. As I said previously, I put the Hooker Slip-ons on it the other day and I have a K & N air filter ( not a stage 1 breather) Ok, rode around with the Hookers set the way I like em for Horsepower and of course it sounded better and all, but I didn't notice much on the low end and only a little on the top end. Since this bike isn't intended to be an Otis beater, I was mainly looking for low end. Well Beags gets to goin on me with his rant about shuttin off the left muffler and only 1/4 on the right side if I want torque, so I do it. Yee ha now Los Dragon has got some bottom end. Runs real good too. Big atta boy for Beags. I've pushed it around for two days and can't find anything to bitch about on the tune either. Seems to be running cooler too, of course the AMSOIL all around could be a big part of that. Long story short. Anyone with an 07 should at least try changing out the air cleaner and mufflers before they spend big $$ if they're only lookin to let the motor do a little better. Now you techno guys can give me 27,000 reasons why it doesn't work, but my butt tells me it does.

Later Dudes,
Big B

Rhino · « **Reply #34 on:** November 01, 2006, 06:54:35 PM »

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I only say it's the ultimate solution because it is the only system out there with two sensors, to my knowledge, that truly has the ability to constantly self-tune, regardless of the running conditions/load, and is in closed loop mode ALL THE TIME.

I think you may be correct.

Robmay · « **Reply #35 on:** November 01, 2006, 07:40:38 PM »

Okay.... I REALLY don't want to step on any toes here but I must ask this question: Is the TMAX wide band sensor TOTALLY available and working and shipping for the 07 SE UC as of yet??

Rhino · « **Reply #36 on:** November 01, 2006, 07:57:39 PM »

Sure, steps on somes toes. Here is my problem. I have, in hand, the ThunderMax ECM. I also have the closed loop set up. The wide band sensors are in a Bosch Box with a module. I also have a software disk.

The remaing problems are:

1. Zippers has not come up with a 110 map.
2. Zippers is doing a fix re; alarm issue?? that occured on the 110
3. I HAVE NOT RECEIVED MY BIKE AND EACH DAY THAT PASSES IT IS GETTING COLDER UP NORTH (DEALER) and I am in FL.

Rhino

Author Topic: H-D's big secret for 2007 (Read 6049 times)

SPIDERMAN

SPIDERMAN

SPIDERMAN

SPIDERMAN

SPIDERMAN

SPIDERMAN

SPIDERMAN

Rhino

Rhino