Topic: zippers ECM and Closed loop system for 07... (Read 12852 times)

nixobilly · « **on:** November 06, 2006, 03:14:17 PM »

Well, its 11/6 and still no updates on the new Zippers ecm and closed loop system for our 07 bikes.

I'm getting kinda impatient as we have no firm expectation of when it will be available and ready to ship. (this week, next month, next year)

I'm looking to pull the trigger on V&H True Duals & Oval slipons, A/N big sucker, SERT (map 74 or 84), and Daytona Sensors Twin Scan 88+ for fine tuning.

Anybody feeling the way I do on this or am I being too impatient?

Mark

Twolanerider · « **Reply #1 on:** November 06, 2006, 04:46:26 PM »

Mark,
With the 07 bikes having been somewhat recently released you have to give the aftermarket time to digest the differences. So I don't know that it's fair to complain about not being tailored to the unforeseen alarm differences in the 07s yet. However...... the missed ETA promises for all the prior models is something of a different question.

I just wish we even knew if it was a QC issue, actually a production issue, a QC issue causing production issues or a technology question that's keeping things from working as expected. As was suggested once before, the discomforting issue for many isn't open or closed loop; it's simply being out of the loop. Hell, I've even been charged for mine and still am blissfully waiting for happy parts.

nixobilly · « **Reply #2 on:** November 06, 2006, 06:15:58 PM »

Twolanerider,

Yup, I hear ya -- that is exactly the issue. It also makes me worried about what kind of support they can do after the sale.

Various SERT and PCIII biased folks have been feeding the fires by talking about reliability, availability, and serviceability on the Zippers ECM gear (they say their engine builds are excellent though). Additionally, I haven't found anybody locally who knows how to tune one if something happens and I need tuning (I live in Houston).

Maybe I'm getting cold feet. I do know that alot of folks in the forum hold their (zippers) ECMs in high esteem so I'm wavering....

Mark

Ironhorse · « **Reply #3 on:** November 06, 2006, 06:57:55 PM »

Guys I identify 100%.

Texas103 says the closed loops are in and they are shipping him one. However I just got an e-mail from Randy saying there is nothing available at the moment. It's this kinda thing that makes me a little leery. I am in the same boat in deciding about ditching the Zippers stuff and going with the Daytona Twin-Tec systems too. Right now I have half a foot in bed with Zippers, and half a foot out. I also have someone interested in buying my ECM, SERT, and bored out Throttlebody. However I am hesitant to sell them, because I don't want get stuck with the Zippers stuff if it does not work right.

Anyway, DC Fireman is a straight shooter. He's going to be checking on this for us sometime this week. Let's see what he has to say.

110tHunDer · « **Reply #4 on:** November 06, 2006, 07:53:52 PM »

Quote

. . . Hell, I've even been charged for mine and still am blissfully waiting for happy parts.

THAT is not right!

[smiley=soapbox.gif]

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #5 on:** November 06, 2006, 08:29:36 PM »

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Twolanerider,

Yup, I hear ya -- that is exactly the issue.

nixobilly · « **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2006, 08:45:25 PM »

Hey DC,

Aren't you going down to Zippers to get the closed loop system this week?

msb

Twolanerider · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2006, 09:21:13 PM »

I'm not concerned about their intent to service the product and any attendant hassles after the fact.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2006, 09:27:35 PM »

Quote

I can tell you that should be the least of your worries. They will stand behind the product. They will go out of their way to make sure you are happy. I PROMISE!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Mike,
No one doubts their intent (or yours here). Though of course, intents notwithstanding, everyone also realizes that promises of Zippers performance are Zippers to make and not yours.

No one is asking for any more than knowing (really) "what's up." From that decisions could be made and options could be picked from. Continual and succeeding promises of "soon," however, are sophomoric; not professional. When all is said and done we'll be (literally) putting our asses on the line (the one down the middle of the road) based on expectations from Zippers here. For that I think many would like a more thoroughgoing discussion than continual and succeeding promises of "soon."

Don

jdk20723 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2006, 11:35:26 PM »

We will start shipping all orders Tuesday, November 7th.

nixobilly · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2006, 12:22:51 AM »

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We will start shipping all orders Tuesday, November 7th. The AutoTune has been thoroughly tested, and I feel comfortable that we are releasing a glitch-free product. Thanks to all for your patience.

The issue we ran into regarding the installation on the 2007 110" bike was in fact not related to the security system, but due to this engine's electronic compression release and the way it is processed through the ECM. The bike we worked on coincidentally was the first '07 we had tried with a security system on it, as well as the first 110 which has the compression release. The system works fine with the security system, but a circuit board revision with a driver for the compression release must be designed, tested and put into production before we will have an ECM that supports that function. I don't anticipate delivery of this unit until after the first of the year, and no I can't pinpoint an exact date. On the 110 we have been mapping, we simply disconnected the release; the bike starts fine without it thanks to the enhanced starting capabilities of the ThunderMax. The current product will run the motorcycle without the release.

JK

Ok, I think this is good news but I have no idea what the compression release is and how it's absence might impact my bike.

Could you spare a few lines and describe what the impact is and, if I buy the TM ECM and closed loop system now, how will the fix for this issue be retrofitted in this release of the product (software upgrade, ECM replacement, etc)?

Mark

Framemaker · « **Reply #11 on:** November 07, 2006, 12:43:32 AM »

I may be wrong, but a compression release is used on high compression engines to reduce compression on start up, thereby reducing strain on the starter motor. Some engines have manual valves that need to be opened before cranking. Apparently the 07 110 has automatic compression releases controlled by the ECU.

Hope this is correct, Framemaker

hd-dude · « **Reply #12 on:** November 07, 2006, 12:57:49 AM »

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I may be wrong, but a compression release is used on high compression engines to reduce compression on start up, thereby reducing strain on the starter motor.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #13 on:** November 07, 2006, 01:38:03 AM »

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We will start shipping all orders Tuesday, November 7th.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #14 on:** November 07, 2006, 03:00:32 PM »

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John,

Thanks for the heads up.

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #15 on:** November 07, 2006, 03:55:11 PM »

Glad to hear that things are finally being taken care of/communicated to those who are waiting. This system promises to be a good one, and I am especially anxious to hear of it getting on some bikes and hearing some evaluations of the performance/operation.

This system and Zippers Gear Driven Cams are both a year + out for me, but knowing things like this are available will let me get an exhaust system already set up for the change....O2 bungs installed.

Hoist! · « **Reply #16 on:** November 07, 2006, 04:45:53 PM »

Can someone clearly explain the different types of ECM modifications? My understanding (and I'm trying to better understand it, so I'm not sure if I'm correct) is that as of the '07 models, you can not do any ECM recalibrations. You need to modify the behavior of the ECM or replace it. There seems to be 4 levels or ways of doing this.

1. Products like SERF, V&H Fuelpak, Cobra FI2000 Digital Fuel Processor. These devices give you "carb" like control, like accelerator pump adjustment, high speed and intermediate jetting.
2. Products like Power Commander and Techlusion. These allow similar adjustments and some "mapping" around various known added components. They trick the ECM into changing its parameters, thereby allowing the supposedly correct A/F for given loads.
3. The SERT or Direct Link systems. These actually try to remap the ECM based on actual named added components in the mod and fine tune the ECM for operation around these components. It also allows input for A/F settings. Howevew, they also burn the remap into the ECM so the Factory knows what you've done. This could effect warranty as you can not remove the evidence of the change.
4. Last, the Thundermax AutoTune by Zippers. The first 3 are add-ons. This unit actually replaces the HD ECM that comes with the bike. It actually is a hardware change and complete reprogramming and remapping so the motors are set up optimally for given performance applications.

I think I got most of this correct. Please correct anything I'm confused about. My further confusion comes with the "open loop, closed loop, partial closed loop, with the O2's or with them disabled, etc.
WHAT DO THESE THINGS MEAN and how do they affect the operation of the '07 Fuel Injection and Ignition System??? Are ther absolute correct and incorrect things to do to these systems (do's and don'ts)?
I'm hoping someone can clearly explain this or refer me somewhere to better understand today's systems. I'm a carb guy and understand jetting, mixture, accelorator pumps and idle. I need to fully understand this FI thing to help make the right component changes for my desired riding characteristics and cost.
Hope to hear from someone on this. Thanks,
Hoist!

Twolanerider · « **Reply #17 on:** November 07, 2006, 05:47:21 PM »

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Thanks for the post Don. As DOOD once said, YOU ARE DA MANNNN!!!!!

As of right now I will be waiting for the closed loop to be insalled on PUNKIN. It still needs the map to be completed and a choice in exhaust system needs to be made. When the guys at Zippes get caught up and get a little time we will get it finished.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Mike, your post here begs a question that I'd suggested at once in a message somewhere but not specifically asked. If you've seen info enough on the system to suggest an answer or if Kitz sees this either might throw it in.

The question is how "auto" tuning is the auto tuning function when the system is in closed loop relative to whatever base map is started from. Or to put it another way, how important is the base map when you've jumped from the T-Max by itself to the ECM with the closed loop hardware additional.

The area where this is especially prevalent in my mind is the "what if" thing sometime later. An important side benefit of the closed loop system is the system's ability to (hopefully) effectively tune relative to the ambient hardware environment and natural environment. However, if the base map still comes significanctly in to play that would suggest that hardware changes dramatically different enough from where it started might impact on the system's ability to compensate.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #18 on:** November 07, 2006, 05:51:56 PM »

Ok lets start at the top vs. trying to pick your post apart Hoist.

The SERT scream eagle race tuner actually reprograms your ECM as if Harley did it either from a base map that is in the software or one done to specification by a tuner such as a map for 13to 1 fuel ratios or 14 to 1 fuel ratios for both cylinders. There is no additional pieces that stay on the bike they are only there for the recalibration. You will want to clarify your ADD ON .. its an add on to the sale but you dont have to have anything extra on the bike when you ride it it does what it does to the brain of the bike and is removed and the changes stay in the brain (ECM)

The Powercommander is there as an ADD on item that lies / tricks the ECM to get the results its looking for. The only issue with a product like this is it could die and if it dies as a piggy back item to your ECM you may have to have the bike trailered vs. riding a too lean bike since your base map is setup for harley's closed air filter and their 2 into 1 70 / 30 pipe setup.

Thunder max which is a direct replacement for the ECM and monitors itself and works just like the harley system does but allows for some self learning by the unit based on your bikes tendancies. It is an Alpha-n PRODUCT. It has more tables than the Harley ECM allowing for more tunability. Basically you install a base map then within X percentage it tunes the bike to what its set for. Takes a small amount of time, but very useful.

Auto Tune by Zippers is an ADD on to the Thundermax ECM and uses Wide Band Sensors to read your Air Fuel Ratio from start of bike to shut down of bike. This is when installed is the optimal way to keep your bike at X setting because it is constantly monitoring all systems where the stock 07 bungs are filled with Narrow Band sensors that monitor only up to 30 percent throttle / idle.

The Fuel Paks, Harley system are all just fuel add ons like the DFO's the problem is they really only help add fuel really arent a true tunable item. Besides placing one ofr seat of the pants is ok, but for a 30k machine I am putting it on a dyno and making sure the changes are right so in my opinion you can keep all those TFO, DFO's fuel paks etc.

There is one other you didnt mention out there which is also a self contained unit called the Daytona Twin Tec. I know some have tried it and most of them have switched not all but a lot of them havent stayed with it. I found to many people I talked with to not like the updates / or the installation process, but its there for more information gathering for you.

Hope this helps clear up some more of your questions. You can also send me a PM if you want to discuss any of this happy to spend the time if it will help you undersand the scenarios.

-harry

Unbalanced · « **Reply #19 on:** November 07, 2006, 05:59:07 PM »

Don,

From my conversations with Danny while trying to install the Closed Loop on my 07 he said its capable of a 20% swing in changes. If you have a strong running Thundermax map or are mostly happy with it it should then take care of any spots it sees as issues and bring them up to where you want them.

-harry

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #20 on:** November 07, 2006, 06:10:33 PM »

Twolane I do know you need a base map. How far + or - from the original base map as far as adjustment for the wide band sensors go I don't think is a problem. You can set your A/F ratio and the closed loop system will keep it there. It will auto adjust for ambient changes.

I think they coverd most bases in the development of this system. I also do know that they would not release it till they had the bugs out of the system. When they were testing on the dyno and on the street they did run into a few VERY MINOR problems. They would not ship any of the units until all bases were clear. I know it is frustrating but if while on the dyno they encounter a problem everything stops till they fix the problem. When you are working with computers and have a problem with the operating system how long does it take to address and repair the problem? They didn't know either and were at the mercy of testing till all of the problems were repaired. They know as well it went way longer then they had originally thought. I am just glad they got the bugs worked out and are now shipping the product.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Twolanerider · « **Reply #21 on:** November 07, 2006, 06:14:30 PM »

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Don,

From my conversations with Danny while trying to install the Closed Loop on my 07 he said its capable of a 20% swing in changes.

Hoist! · « **Reply #22 on:** November 07, 2006, 06:19:04 PM »

Harry, Thanks so much for the rundown and clarifications. What does closed loop/partially closed/open loop refer to . Is this referring to the feed back to the ECM bsed on various operating conditions vs. preprogrammed stuff? I understand the narrow vs. wideband thing. Thanks for your help in understanding this. I'll be up to speed (get it!) in no time. Now that I'm understanding the various aspects of it, this Zipper's AutoTune thing seems like best way to go, as long as it work's reliably and as intended. Thanks again. Hoist!

Twolanerider · « **Reply #23 on:** November 07, 2006, 06:22:48 PM »

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They didn't know either and were at the mercy of testing till all of the problems were repaired. They know as well it went way longer then they had originally thought. I am just glad they got the bugs worked out and are now shipping the product.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

That's all completely and perfectly understandable Mike.

hogasm · « **Reply #24 on:** November 07, 2006, 06:32:02 PM »

Can a map from a PC or other tuner be given to Zippers and their base map be produced from this?
Or does the base map have to be produced from scratch?

Hogasm

Rhino · « **Reply #25 on:** November 07, 2006, 07:23:55 PM »

Hi Guys,

Jus thought I would add my .02. Zippers first is taking a stock 110 SE CUSE2. The are mappiing about 1,985 different combinations of throttle opening and fuel supply. They are going for a 13.1 AFR or Air to fuel ratio, electronically. This is for best performance. So, compared to a stock bike, this is more precise. Any way you twist the throttle and no matter what gear you choose, with 1,985 combinations, you should be within that range easily while it maintains your AFR.

Now, there are certain after market items. Zippers takes each common combination and will do the same for that 13.1. If you add Rhinehart Duals, Zippers will have a map for that. If you add a A/C, Zipperes will do that too. Slip Ons, K & N, etc.. They need a bit of time to work the different combinations. They then create a particular map or baseline map, for that combi. We are concerned with the AFR's. ZIppers maps handle all the other stuff so we don't have to be programmers.

From THAT point, the closed loop will keep the fuel ratio. SInce it will only allow certain (maybe 20%) automated or manual corrections, you need to have a base map for the changes you have made on your bike.
If you download the zippers smartIV software, you can go to the lookup tables and see the combinations they have done for the 06 bikes. There are a lot. 07 will take a bit to get going, but it will.

The closed loop portion is different than the stock application, becasue the stock bike only runs in closed loop in a narrow range. It becomes open loop when you accel or decel. The wide band that ZIppers has allows it to stay in closed loop, hence the AFR will remain close to constant. The advantage is that 13.1 is good wherever your combination takes you, vs EPA regs that will occur on stock stock, (EPA).

Finally, understand why there is a range you can manually adjust. For example, you can tweak so many different things you can give yourself a headache, but, lets say you are going on a long cross country trip. You can change the AFR to 14, which is still safe, but it will really increase your fuel economy. But it will not perform as strong. Now, what will happen, is that ZIppers is going to release a way for on the bike changes to AFR, so you do not have to use a computer on the road. That product exists now, but doesn't fit our Ultras yet. From the speedo, you can not only monitor parameters in the ecm< YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR afr'S. I think it is going to be a beautiful thing for sure.

See: http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=583&prod=2098

It does AFR. They may not have mentioned that.

When they come up with a bezel to match, it would be a nice replacement for the stock speedo for certain.

Rhino

Ironhorse · « **Reply #26 on:** November 07, 2006, 10:49:50 PM »

Great news on the closed loop system being shipped?
Who do I call to check on my order?

DC Fireman,

Didja get a chance to speak to Dan yet? He has not reponded to my e-mails. I tried calling Dan again today but he was not taking calls, at least from me anyway. So I spoke to Randy. I told him what Dan told me on Monday Oct 30th, that there is a working ECM for my bike, and that it is closed loop compatible. Randy said he didn't know about that and would check with Dan and get back to me.

Mike I'm kind of getting frusrated here. I know they are working on my new ECM, but the frustration comes from the dark hole of information I get when I try to speak to them and get a straight answer. They may see me as impatient, and that may be partly true. But I AM A PAYING CUSTOMER. I bought and paid for their expensive system and it does not work properly. My speedo and turn signals do not function correctly, and I am getting 27mpgs. Whenever I try to address this with them, all I get is the "we're working on it" reply. This has been going on since September. How much longer should I put up with this? Is this the normal operating procedure for Zippers, to take money, and then leave a customer hanging with an improperly operating bike, and never contact him with an update?

What is a reasonable time frame for trying to get a straight answer from Zippers? I don't think I am out of line for trying to find out. I find it hard to believe, that I will never get a straight answer from Zippers for an indefinete amount of time, and that an improperly functioning bike and 27 mpgs is resonable and acceptable return for a $2,000.00 investment. You keep saying that they will stand behind the product and bend over backwards to help, but I just don't see it here with me. If anyone is getting bent over I think it's me. All I want from them is a straight answer.

Mike, answer me this question, how would you feel if you were in my boots?

Unbalanced · « **Reply #27 on:** November 07, 2006, 11:22:16 PM »

Ironhorse,

first myself nor mike is going to speak for Zippers, while we may be proponents for them here on the site and in public we have only an ability to carry the message forward.

Hoist! · « **Reply #28 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:55:36 AM »

Thanks Rhino for taking the time to explain the "loop" scenarios. When this AutoTune system gets perfected and enough maps written for various applications, this sounds like the optimum system. Thanks to you and Harry for helping me better understand it. Hoist!

Hoist! · « **Reply #29 on:** November 08, 2006, 01:15:18 AM »

Ironhorse, I'd be bummed too. Can you put it back to stock or semi-stock in the meantime easily enough? For what it's worth, I've known Zippers to stand behind their stuff. I think this AutoTune thing needs time to get everything right. After all it's still trials and errors. Someone else is doing it all and putting it on a disc. That's gotta take time. Maybe it shouldn't have been offered to you yet. All new stuff has bugs, but stand-up companies stand behind their stuff and I think Zippers will come through. Hang in there. Hoist!

Ironhorse · « **Reply #30 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:56:07 AM »

Quote

Ironhorse, I'd be bummed too. Can you put it back to stock or semi-stock in the meantime easily enough? For what it's worth, I've known Zippers to stand behind their stuff. I think this AutoTune thing needs time to get everything right. After all it's still trials and errors. Someone else is doing it all and putting it on a disc. That's gotta take time. Maybe it shouldn't have been offered to you yet. All new stuff has bugs, but stand-up companies stand behind their stuff and I think Zippers will come through. Hang in there. Hoist!

Hoist,

Actually, the Auto-Tune is not really the base issue. I bought their highly touted Magnetti-Marelli conversion kit, to convert my bike over to Delphi. John Williams the sales guy did a whiz-bang job in selling it to me as the next best thing to buying a new bike. Said it would take care of ALL of my issues. So I bought it and installed it.

After a few install and tuning issues, they got me a close map and sent me to a local tuner. All the while my speedo was acting funny and the turn signals were not operating correctly. The tuner did the best he could, but the bike got poor mpgs. All Zippers could tell me is that it was all due to my heads, exhaust, and cam package. As for the speedo, I was told it was a rare issue with bikes like mine. I WISH TO HELL JOHN WILLIAMS HAD TOLD ME THIS UP FRONT BEFORE I SUNK ALL THIS MONEY INTO THEIR KIT!!! But his job is a salesman, and sell he did!

So I felt my options to get the bike to run good and get decent mpgs were to buy all the Zippers stuff, their heads, their cams, and their exhaust. As for the speedo turn signal issues, well their "working on it". Last week I spoke to Dan about my issues and mpgs. He said they had a working ECM for my bike that would resolve these problems, and be compatible with the closed loop. He said I would never get my bike to run right and get decent mpgs without the closed loop.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #31 on:** November 08, 2006, 05:14:17 AM »

Quote

Great news on the closed loop system being shipped?
Who do I call to check on my order?

DC Fireman,

Didja get a chance to speak to Dan yet? He has not reponded to my e-mails. I tried calling Dan again today but he was not taking calls, at least from me anyway. So I spoke to Randy. I told him what Dan told me on Monday Oct 30th, that there is a working ECM for my bike, and that it is closed loop compatible. Randy said he didn't know about that and would check with Dan and get back to me.

Mike I'm kind of getting frusrated here. I know they are working on my new ECM, but the frustration comes from the dark hole of information I get when I try to speak to them and get a straight answer. They may see me as impatient, and that may be partly true. But I AM A PAYING CUSTOMER. I bought and paid for their expensive system and it does not work properly. My speedo and turn signals do not function correctly, and I am getting 27mpgs. Whenever I try to address this with them, all I get is the "we're working on it" reply. This has been going on since September. How much longer should I put up with this? Is this the normal operating procedure for Zippers, to take money, and then leave a customer hanging with an improperly operating bike, and never contact him with an update?

What is a reasonable time frame for trying to get a straight answer from Zippers? I don't think I am out of line for trying to find out. I find it hard to believe, that I will never get a straight answer from Zippers for an indefinete amount of time, and that an improperly functioning bike and 27 mpgs is resonable and acceptable return for a $2,000.00 investment. You keep saying that they will stand behind the product and bend over backwards to help, but I just don't see it here with me. If anyone is getting bent over I think it's me. All I want from them is a straight answer.

Mike, answer me this question, how would you feel if you were in my boots?

The ThunderMax is produced by Thunder Heart Industries and is sold BY ZIPPERS ONLY. When a problem shows up there are a few people that straigthen it out. It is a computer glitch that needs to be found and then a solution needs to be found. This may be out of Dans hands and Thunder Heart is working on the problem. I have not had the time to go down there as of yet. I need to go down there to talk to Dan myself in person. It is not that he is not taking your call and Lisa doesn't screen his calls. If he is tied up on a project he stays focused on what he is doing. When I have been down there and working on THE CVO project I have seen him get 20 calls in a very short time. If he takes all of his calls when they are having a POW WOW on a certain problem it would never get solved.

ZIPPERS WILL NOT LEAVE YOU HANGING. I have told you that in the past. If they can't find a soloution then they will tell you. I know they have some other MM conversions out there with no problems. If you are getting nervous then return it, if you like it keep it and wait it out.

I really can't wait till I get the closed loop installed on my bike. It has been a pleasure to drive but the MPG's are much lower now. I guess after the breakin it is hard to stay out of the throttle.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Ironhorse · « **Reply #32 on:** November 08, 2006, 10:14:00 AM »

Quote

The ThunderMax is produced by Thunder Heart Industries and is sold BY ZIPPERS ONLY. When a problem shows up there are a few people that straigthen it out. It is a computer glitch that needs to be found and then a solution needs to be found. This may be out of Dans hands and Thunder Heart is working on the problem. I have not had the time to go down there as of yet. I need to go down there to talk to Dan myself in person. It is not that he is not taking your call and Lisa doesn't screen his calls. If he is tied up on a project he stays focused on what he is doing. When I have been down there and working on THE CVO project I have seen him get 20 calls in a very short time. If he takes all of his calls when they are having a POW WOW on a certain problem it would never get solved.

ZIPPERS WILL NOT LEAVE YOU HANGING. I have told you that in the past. If they can't find a soloution then they will tell you. I know they have some other MM conversions out there with no problems. If you are getting nervous then return it, if you like it keep it and wait it out.

I really can't wait till I get the closed loop installed on my bike. It has been a pleasure to drive but the MPG's are much lower now. I guess after the breakin it is hard to stay out of the throttle.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Dawg,

Thanks for your response, I learned something new. That Zippers sometimes can't fix these issues and farms them back to ThunderHeart. That could explain why they can't answer my questions, because they don't know what is going on themselves. Could be they are as in the dark as I am. Perhaps I should consider contacting ThunderHeart directly about this.

When you get down there, would you be able to find out if my issues are being handled by Zippers or ThunderHeart? Dan said there is a working ECM for me. See if they have it or ThunderHeart does. See if you can get a time frame on it. Also see if Dan has a new MAP to help my mpgs get out of the mid 20s. The last one he sent me was in a different format, it corrupted the software and crashed the program. Randy helped me get that straightend out, and told me to delete and reload the software again. But I am still waiting on another MAP from Dan. Let me know if he says writing another MAP is useless because of my engine build. Let me know if he needs afr readings to write the MAP. If he does I'll have to buy the Daytona Twin-Tec WEGOII from them to get the afr reading. If he says that won't help, then my only options are to live with mpgs in the mid 20s, or buy their heads, cams, exhaust, and everything else.

erniezap · « **Reply #33 on:** November 08, 2006, 10:16:29 AM »

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ZIPPERS WILL NOT LEAVE YOU HANGING. I have told you that in the past. If they can't find a soloution then they will tell you. I know they have some other MM conversions out there with no problems. If you are getting nervous then return it, if you like it keep it and wait it out.

I really can't wait till I get the closed loop installed on my bike. It has been a pleasure to drive but the MPG's are much lower now. I guess after the breakin it is hard to stay out of the throttle.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

I have never bought anything from Zippers and from what I've read they make some great products. That being said, between this thread, Twolane's issues, and everyone else being told "soon" whenever there's a problem, [highlight]there is no F'ing way that I would deal with this company![/highlight] If/when they ever decide to start acting like a company who cares about their customers, I might change my mind. Until then, my $s will not be spent on their products or in their shop.

Hoist! · « **Reply #34 on:** November 08, 2006, 11:22:14 AM »

I don't know why, but it seems like a "East Coast-West Coast" thing. Most people I know on this ocean's side have pretty good luck with them. Good Luck Ironhorse! Too bad you weren't closer, it might've helped if you could bring your bike into them. Personally, I'll wait until all the bugs are worked out in the AutoTune before installing it. I'll leave it stock as long as I have to. It seems I'll be able to find out right here when that day comes. Just my $.02 not my $2K. Regards, Hoist!

Fired00d · « **Reply #35 on:** November 08, 2006, 11:29:57 AM »

Quote

..... Personally, I'll wait until all the bugs are worked out in the AutoTune before installing it. I'll leave it stock as long as I have to. It seems I'll be able to find out right here when that day comes. Just my $.02 not my $2K. Regards, Hoist!

Excellent decision. Since the 110ci along w/a lot of the features are new it's best (IMHO) to give all (MoCo & aftermarket) time to work out bugs and get things working/adjusted. Remember good things come to those who wait, and patience is a virtue.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

Twolanerider · « **Reply #36 on:** November 08, 2006, 11:36:18 AM »

Quote

I have never bought anything from Zippers and from what I've read they make some great products.

Hoist! · « **Reply #37 on:** November 08, 2006, 11:49:35 AM »

That's exactly why I'm asking so many questions about the different available ECM mod options. Nobody wants to be a Guniea Pig. You just don't know you're being one. Unfortunately, corporations today have grown accustomed to testing/proving their products in the field rather than taking the time to perfect them, before releasing them to the public. Gotta get it out the door! We'll Fix it under warranty, learn and fix the problems, and call it a newer generation product. This isn't just Zippers. It's become the new American corporate way. In all fields! That's why I fully agree with dOOd. Gotta wait til it's right! I feel for you guys with these problems. It's extremely frustrating. Hang in there. At least Zippers will be there to deal with. Other companies will just fold in the face of problems/warranty issues. Hoist

Ironhorse · « **Reply #38 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:07:39 PM »

Quote

wait until all the bugs are worked out in the AutoTune before installing it. I'll leave it stock as long as I have to.

I wish I could, I seem to be struggling on two fronts that are all related to the ECM. The Speedo/turn signals are all controlled by the ECM. The 27mpgs comes from an afr mixture that cannot seem to be properly adjusted due to my current build. All the MAPs Zippers has are for their heads, cam, etc... They gave me a "close MAP" to get it running. I tweaked the MAP, and had others help me tweak it. The bike runs and idles better than ever, but the mpgs are just horrible. Dan himself said that the best way to deal with the poor mpgs is through the closed loop system. And since all of this has dragged on beyond their 30 day return policy, I can't return the stuff anymore.

Sure I could strip all the Zippers stuff off, and reinstall the OEM stuff. But then I would be back where I started, with a bike that had a working speedo and turn signals, gets decent mpgs, but runs and idles like crap. I've tried to contact them and get a time frame on all of this, but they are so busy, so over worked, so overloaded, that they don't have time to respond to e-mails, return calls, or take calls. All I get is "we're working on it".

So I'm really at their mercy. It's won't run right, and it's too late to return it. It would be nice if I lived close and could visit them like Mike. I have thought about shipping my bike the them, but all that does is leave me without a bike for an indefinite length of time. I've considered flying out there and visiting them face to face. After all the time and money I have spent with Zippers, what's another few thousand? But then I think that maybe that money is better spent buying their engine package and hope it brings my mpgs up.

I just have to wait for however long it takes them to figure this one out and send me a working ECM.
I guess I better get use to a funky speedo, malfunctioning turn signals, and 27mpgs.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #39 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:16:30 PM »

Quote

And since all of this has dragged on beyond their 30 day return policy, I can't return the stuff anymore.

That can not be an acceptable response when nearly every day of all the time waiting has been spent waiting for answers from the supplier. They were made aware of significant issues from almost day 1 (weren't they?). They then asked you to "try this and do that" thus by their direction they were extending your efforts. To do that and then, when all thier efforts and directions still prove to be failing, not step up is not the customer service and support we've been told to expect.

Have you in fact recently asked them, "Hey guys, at your direction I have tried X, X, Y, Z, and all these other things. I have done these things, at my time and expense, at your direction rather than just sending it back within the 30 days. The bike is still basically unrideable. It's time to punt. Can I have my money back?"

Hoist! · « **Reply #40 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:20:06 PM »

Ironhorse, I can't believe the 30 day policy will apply if you've never been satisfied and they're telling you to wait while they're working on it. Have you tried another ECM program in the meantime? I know you won't like this (devil's advocate here) but the right combination of parts, not just performance parts themselves, are the only way to insure that the bike runs right as well as performs. Another program with the same rusults would indicate improperly matched components. Dan had indicated that to you. He still might be right. I don't know your stuff and I'm not saying that's your situation, just some other things to look at. The electronic glitches have nothing to do with your components (signals, speedo) and they should be addressing/correcting that or returning your $$$. The poor MPG might be due to component selection/mismatch and all the maps in the world won't help that, if this is the case. I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, just make you aware of all the possibilities/realities. Hoist!

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #41 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:21:23 PM »

Quote

Dawg,

Thanks for your response, I learned something new. [highlight]That Zippers sometimes can't fix these issues and farms them back to ThunderHeart.[/highlight] That could explain why they can't answer my questions, because they don't know what is going on themselves. Could be they are as in the dark as I am. Perhaps I should consider contacting ThunderHeart directly about this.

When you get down there, would you be able to find out if my issues are being handled by Zippers or ThunderHeart? Dan said there is a working ECM for me. See if they have it or ThunderHeart does. See if you can get a time frame on it. Also see if Dan has a new MAP to help my mpgs get out of the mid 20s. The last one he sent me was in a different format, it corrupted the software and crashed the program. Randy helped me get that straightend out, and told me to delete and reload the software again. But I am still waiting on another MAP from Dan. Let me know if he says writing another MAP is useless because of my engine build. Let me know if he needs afr readings to write the MAP. If he does I'll have to buy the Daytona Twin-Tec WEGOII from them to get the afr reading. If he says that won't help, then my only options are to live with mpgs in the mid 20s, or buy their heads, cams, exhaust, and everything else.

Mark it is not that they FARM them back to Thunder Heart. THUNDER HEART BUILDS THE UNITS! It would do you no good to call them. Zippers is the distributer for the unit and all questions will have to go through them. I will ask when I get down there. I can tell you unless they think they have ut right they are not going to send you anything.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Twolanerider · « **Reply #42 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:26:30 PM »

Quote

The poor MPG might be due to component selection/mismatch and all the maps in the world won't help that, if this is the case. I'm not trying to be the bad guy here, just make you aware of all the possibilities/realities. Hoist!

That "match/mismatch" is a relative thing though.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #43 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:28:05 PM »

Quote

I have never bought anything from Zippers and from what I've read they make some great products.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #44 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:30:40 PM »

Quote

I don't know why, but it seems like a "East Coast-West Coast" thing. Most people I know on this ocean's side have pretty good luck with them. Good Luck Ironhorse! Too bad you weren't closer, it might've helped if you could bring your bike into them. Personally, I'll wait until all the bugs are worked out in the AutoTune before installing it. I'll leave it stock as long as I have to. It seems I'll be able to find out right here when that day comes. Just my $.02 not my $2K. Regards, Hoist!

Hoist for the most part the bugs are worked out. I can't wait till I can get it installed on Punkin.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

hdfatboy · « **Reply #45 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:31:04 PM »

Quote

We will start shipping all orders Tuesday, November 7th.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #46 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:36:50 PM »

Quote

Hoist [highlight]for the most part [/highlight]the bugs are worked out.

[highlight]That [/highlight]is not a promising statement from a consumer perspective.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #47 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:39:38 PM »

Quote

Isn

Hoist! · « **Reply #48 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:44:16 PM »

Dawg is right and they will stand behind it. Nobody likes to be the one with the "only one to have this issue" problem. I'm not sure from reading this that Zippers picked all of Mark's components. Research, talk, inquire, network. Whatever you have to do to be convinced that everything you do is properly engineered and perfected is a buyers responsibility. Buying something before that is called "buyer beware". If some salesman at Zippers talked you into something, they'll at least get it straightened out or refund you. I'd give Dawg a chance to find out what's going on. He seems to know these guys pretty well and should get a straight answer for you. You'll still be in the "trial and error" process though. Maybe it'll be right, maybe it'll be closer. If you can't deal with the process anymore, ask for a refund. Hoist!

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #49 on:** November 08, 2006, 12:58:25 PM »

Quote

[highlight]That [/highlight][highlight]is not a promising statement from a consumer perspective[/highlight].

OK The bugs are out of the unit and they are being shipped!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #50 on:** November 08, 2006, 01:05:43 PM »

Quote

Dawg is right and they will stand behind it. Nobody likes to be the one with the "only one to have this issue" problem. I'm not sure from reading this that Zippers picked all of Mark's components. Research, talk, inquire, network. Whatever you have to do to be convinced that everything you do is properly engineered and perfected is a buyers responsibility. Buying something before that is called "buyer beware". If some salesman at Zippers talked you into something, they'll at least get it straightened out or refund you.[highlight] I'd give Dawg a chance to find out what's going on. He seems to know these guys pretty well and should get a straight answer for you. [/highlight]You'll still be in the "trial and error" process though. Maybe it'll be right, maybe it'll be closer. If you can't deal with the process anymore, ask for a refund. Hoist!

Thanks I do know them very well. Hell I wish I was on the payroll.

Ironhorse I just had a thought. You said your bike had a problem with the speedo and the turn signals. Have you checked for a bad speed sensor on your bike?

? They do go bad all of the time and will cause the exact same problem that you are having. Just a thought.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #51 on:** November 08, 2006, 01:07:07 PM »

Quote

Isn

dejavo · « **Reply #52 on:** November 08, 2006, 01:53:35 PM »

With all the questions about tmax problems why wouldnt you use daytona twin tech. They have a unit that has been out for a few years and is set to work with the new systems. (supposedly) Anyone have any experience with them?

erniezap · « **Reply #53 on:** November 08, 2006, 01:59:06 PM »

Quote

[highlight]I don't know why, but it seems like a "East Coast-West Coast" thing[/highlight]. Most people I know on this ocean's side have pretty good luck with them. Good Luck Ironhorse! Too bad you weren't closer, it might've helped if you could bring your bike into them. Personally, I'll wait until all the bugs are worked out in the AutoTune before installing it. I'll leave it stock as long as I have to. It seems I'll be able to find out right here when that day comes. Just my $.02 not my $2K. Regards, Hoist!

This has nothing to do with east coast-west coast. In fact, I'm originally from Brooklyn and Long Island. Zippers makes a lot of great products. It's just that recently, reading this board, that they are in over their heads right now and that their customer service has gone out the window. There about 4 or 5 different examples with different products. In fact, they have people's $s but haven't developed the parts yet! [highlight] It's all about communication, just like I tell the people that work for me. Customers would rather hear the truth, even if it's bad news, than hear no news or vague answers that avoid really answering the question.[/highlight] When Zippers (and a lot of other companies) learns that, and I'm sure that they will, they will be a lot better off.

Hoist! · « **Reply #54 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:10:23 PM »

That reference (East Coast/West Coast thing) was that it's easier to deal with more localized companies than from across the country. I fully agree with you about customer service. There's nothing worse nor is there any excuse for not returning calls or false promises. In this case, it appears they said they were working on it. I'm sure they couldn't predict when they'd have an answer so they didn't provide one. At least you're dealing with someone that will eventually get an answer. They did say they wanted to get it right before sending anything out. I have absolutely nothing to do with Zippers. Don't shoot the messenger. I have had decent experiences with them though and they're not going anywhere. Hopefully this will eventually get resolved to Ironside's satisfaction. Hoist!

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #55 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:28:55 PM »

Quote

This has nothing to do with east coast-west coast.

erniezap · « **Reply #56 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:38:35 PM »

Quote

ERNIE they are not in over their head. If fact they only have ONE problem unit out there and it is an early MM conversion. [highlight]They have offered to buy back the unit[/highlight]. They were told no. They have everything [highlight]DEVELOPED[/highlight] for the closed loop system. [highlight]I have been running a Thunder Max for OVER TWO YEARS now with NO PROBLEMS.[/highlight] It doesn't matter that I live close to them or I have been dealing with them for a long time. It has been flawless. The new motor they just built for me is GREAT. I am going to go to Zippers in a few weeks (after all of the back orders have been filled) and buy a closed loop system for my bike. Yes I agree their customer service is a little low right now. Yes I also agree that the customer would love the truth not speculation. You noticed I didn't say lied too. They don't just lie to get the sale. Their timing on this was off. Hell I was supposed to have a closed loop system to take to Maggie Valley. They were waiting on the units and did not recieve them in time as they thought they would have.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

DC,

It's interesting that you say that they back their products considering Ironhorse's problems. Whatever, I'm not going to argue with you over a company that I've never dealt with. You SHOULD work for them, since per you they are perfect and NEVER make a mistake, communicate in a fantastic manner with their customers, and are the greatest thing since electric start. Enjoy them, their products, and anything else that you do with them. I just know that I won't be dealing with them anytime soon. Ride safe and keep being their salesman...

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #57 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:39:15 PM »

Quote

That reference (East Coast/West Coast thing) was that it's easier to deal with more localized companies than from across the country. I fully agree with you about customer service. [highlight]There's nothing worse nor is there any excuse for not returning calls or false promises. In this case, it appears they said they were working on it. I'm sure they couldn't predict when they'd have an answer so they didn't provide one. [/highlight]At least you're dealing with someone that will eventually get an answer. They did say they wanted to get it right before sending anything out. I have absolutely nothing to do with Zippers. Don't shoot the messenger. I have had decent experiences with them though and they're not going anywhere. Hopefully this will eventually get resolved to Ironside's satisfaction. Hoist!

Hoist I think you hit the nail right on the head. Two problems here. Problem one Ironhorse has a early MM conversion that is giving him a problem. This is a problem not even related to the closed loop system or the later model FI systems that most of us have. They have been working with him on this. He is not happy but they are working on it.

Problem 2 they took money for a system and didn't ship it right away. Along with the other problems Don had with his upgrades from other vendors. He has had a rough time. He is a patient person. I feel for him.

I called to talk to Danny today. He is out. I will send him an e mail and try to get some answers on Ironhorses problem. I don't know that I can help but will at least try.

Hell after all of this I think I am going to apply for the new position that just opened up at Zippers. CUSTOMER SERVICE AGENT!!!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

nixobilly · « **Reply #58 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:44:53 PM »

[highlight]Hell after all of this I think I am going to apply for the new position that just opened up at Zippers. CUSTOMER SERVICE AGENT!!!!!!!![/highlight]

Dawg,

Keep your regular job -- it is much safer than a Customer Service Agent for Zippers.

mark

hdfatboy · « **Reply #59 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:53:57 PM »

Quote

[highlight]Hell after all of this I think I am going to apply for the new position that just opened up at Zippers. CUSTOMER SERVICE AGENT!!!!!!!![/highlight]

Dawg,

Keep your regular job -- it is much safer than a Customer Service Agent for Zippers.

Hoist! · « **Reply #60 on:** November 08, 2006, 03:00:44 PM »

Dawg, I think he's lucky that at least he has someone local like yourself, whom Zippers knows, to help him. Zippers goal is not to make or keep us unhappy. With over 2500 CVO members here, most of which seem to own multiple performance oriented bikes, I would doubt that Zippers will be comfortable with this problem being left unresolved. They also have a lot riding on this (us!). Hell they wouldn't waste their time being a member and participating here if they didn't think that we were not important to their business. People like us ARE their business. Therefore either of 2 things will happen. they'll eventually make him happy or they won't. Unfortunately it will take some time to see which occurs. My money's on the former. I hope it works out for you guys. I know the outcome will effect decisions I make in the future, as I'm sure it will with others as well. Hoist

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #61 on:** November 08, 2006, 03:13:43 PM »

Quote

[smiley=rifle.gif] SERIOUSLY DC! That's like suicide man! Dealin' with us, that is

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #62 on:** November 08, 2006, 03:14:45 PM »

Quote

[highlight]Hell after all of this I think I am going to apply for the new position that just opened up at Zippers. CUSTOMER SERVICE AGENT!!!!!!!![/highlight]

Dawg,

Keep your regular job -- it is much safer than a Customer Service Agent for Zippers.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #63 on:** November 08, 2006, 03:16:54 PM »

Quote

Hoist I think you hit the nail right on the head. Two problems here. Problem one Ironhorse has a early MM conversion that is giving him a problem. This is a problem not even related to the closed loop system or the later model FI systems that most of us have. They have been working with him on this. He is not happy but they are working on it.

Problem 2 they took money for a system and didn't ship it right away. Along with the other problems Don had with his upgrades from other vendors. He has had a rough time. He is a patient person. I feel for him.

I called to talk to Danny today. He is out. I will send him an e mail and try to get some answers on Ironhorses problem. I don't know that I can help but will at least try.

Hell after all of this I think I am going to apply for the new position that just opened up at Zippers. CUSTOMER SERVICE AGENT!!!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Dawg,

No need to, I finally got an answer back from JK. It was the first indepth comprehensive response I ever got. It told me where things were in development and how much more they have to do. He gave me a time frame of 6 weeks, 16 weeks, 16 months, or whenever it gets done.

He offered to buy the system back. I told him I am learning to deal with the malfunctioning speedo and turn signals. I added that 27mpgs in not acceptable. I said that if we could just get my mpgs up to a reasonable range, I would endure all the other issues, keep the system on the bike, and continue to wait for whenever. I told him that on November 1st Dan sent me a new MAP to try and improve my fuel economy. But the MAP Dan sent me was incompatible with the ThunderMax software and corrupted the program. I asked JK if the MAP could be sent again, this time in the correct format for me to try.

The difficult part is, for the FIRST TIME EVER, the bike starts good, runs great, and idles steady. However the mpgs are horrible. If we can get the mpgs to improve, I'll keep the system on the bike. If they cannot improve the mpgs, I'm returning it. I'm not asking them to speed rush R&D and make me an ECM, all I'm asking for are new MAPS to improve my mpgs. I hope that is not an unreasonable request.

Let's see what happens.

JCZ · « **Reply #64 on:** November 08, 2006, 03:25:01 PM »

Quote

Dawg,

No need to, I finally got an answer back from JK. It was the first indepth comprehensive response I ever got. It told me where things were in development and how much more they have to do. He gave me a time frame of 6 weeks, 16 weeks, 16 months, or whenever it gets done.

He offered to buy the system back.

Let's see what happens.

After all the time, effort, energy and miles you've put down all over Southern Calif. trying to make it right........they should just give you your money back.

Hoist! · « **Reply #65 on:** November 08, 2006, 03:27:22 PM »

Ironhorse, Bear in mind, if they're getting you a new closed loop ECM to replace what you have now, the new maps for this ECM might not help your existing conditions. You're choosing to work with them until the new unit is developed for you. That sounds pretty good to me. If you decide to wait this out, try not to get too frustrated in the process. They've told you it'll take some time, but they're not blowing you off. They offered a refund as well. Sounds to me like they're standing behind their product and offering you choices. Hang in there! Hoist!

Ironhorse · « **Reply #66 on:** November 08, 2006, 04:19:16 PM »

Quote

Ironhorse, Bear in mind, if they're getting you a new closed loop ECM to replace what you have now, the new maps for this ECM might not help your existing conditions. You're choosing to work with them until the new unit is developed for you. That sounds pretty good to me. If you decide to wait this out, try not to get too frustrated in the process. They've told you it'll take some time, but they're not blowing you off. They offered a refund as well. Sounds to me like they're standing behind their product and offering you choices. Hang in there! Hoist!

Hoist,

Your're right, eventually, but I can't say when, I should get a new ECM that solves the speedo/turn signal issues and is closed loop compatible. That one will come with it's own MAP. For now, all I am trying to do is get a MAP from Zippers to work with my current Zippers ECM that will get me better than 27mpgs.

JCZ, you are right, they should. Right now I really don't want to reflect on all the additional expenses I have shelled out for just to take me this far in the process. All I want for now is better mpgs. I'll "live" with the rest of it. Let's see if they can come up with a better MAP. In the mean time keep checking the corner gas stations, 'cause that's where you'll find me,...... filling up. LOL!

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #67 on:** November 08, 2006, 05:24:19 PM »

Well I am glad to some progress today at least.

Back on topic. Since JK said they were shipping has anyone got one as of yet?

?? Who is going to be the frist to have theirs installed?

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Rhino · « **Reply #68 on:** November 08, 2006, 07:38:25 PM »

Well I am glad to some progress today at least.

Back on topic. Since JK said they were shipping has anyone got one as of yet?

?? Who is going to be the frist to have theirs installed?

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Hey Guys, even if everyone with a 110 received the closed loop and module, there still needs to be a base map, or you can try to work with one that doesnt exactly match the bike and componenets from the Zippers Library. Me personally, I want to wait until the true matching map is ready before I tweak around with it. If you start without at least a base line guide for your component mix, it can go either way, off course, too rich, too lean etc, and not have info enough to compensate.

I think Ironhorse may be experiencing some of this, for example, if his bike mods do not EXACTLY match one that Zippers created a base map for, from a twin brother bike, then some of the tuning issues he has may require a tuner/programmer to get it right. I think that would take a call to Thunderheart or Zippers, whoever has the responsibility for actually making the base software map and giving them the bike specifications, pipes, cams etc... Once a base map was created, tweaking it out is the fun part. Just my 02 ....again.

So I think that some performance mods that I may do will be based on what ZIppers mix has already created.

Rhino

Twolanerider · « **Reply #69 on:** November 08, 2006, 07:56:55 PM »

Speaking to Dawg's question on delivery and Rhino's accurate portrayal of the question on base maps I know I'm likely halfway home but still only assuming I am ok on the other. There was UPS delivery notice here when I got back this evening. A box from Zippers is in town. Assuming nothing unexpected in the package that should answer the delivery question.

The base map question, however, is still somewhat in the asked but unanswered category that characterizes much of what we've been discussing here lately. More than a month ago I sent Kitzmiller a message that discussed base maps, described the exhaust I'd be hanging on the parts they were sending me and asking if the base map would be satisfactory to start with. It was a question I never got an answer to.

So while I am willing to assume that the control range of the system can handle the variances attributable to something as minimal as different exhaust systems, and I am willing to assume they wouldn't send a system out without an adequate base map to start from within it; I can't say what's really there or absolutely know what to expect because they never told me.

I will, of course, know before it gets hung on the bike. But this instance as has been others was one where a question's answer went missing.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #70 on:** November 08, 2006, 09:16:07 PM »

Ok to anwser the last 2 post. Don I am 99.99% sure that the Map for your package was done some time ago. I saw the bike with the 103 muscle kit on the dyno. It was not mine as mine did all of the early testing and my motor was being gone through. So I am sure you are more than OK in regards to the map.

I am not sure about the 110 maps. All I need to do is make a call to find out the status on the 110 motor.

Rhino getting back to Ironhorse. He has a different application then anyone else on this board. He has a conversion for MM to Delphi. There are some maps for those packages but when you start changing things that there is no map for it is tough to dial it in with out a dyno and sniffer. They are working on a closed loop system for that application but there is no time frame for completion. When it is done then the auto tune (with a close map) will take care of tuning issues.

As far as Thunderheart Industries goes. They manufacture the unit. Zippers designed the unit. So placing a call to Thunderheart will do you no good. Hell I don't even think there is a completed map for Punkin's build as of yet.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Twolanerider · « **Reply #71 on:** November 08, 2006, 09:25:33 PM »

Quote

Ok to anwser the last 2 post. Don I am 99.99% sure that the Map for your package was done some time ago. I saw the bike with the 103 muscle kit on the dyno. It was not mine as mine did all of the early testing and my motor was being gone through. So I am sure you are more than OK in regards to the map.

THE DAWG

Thanks Mike. Good to know you've seen a project in house there that should supply the product in question. I always figured if nothing else I'd plug the unit in, hook up a laptop and see what kind of tell tales came from the unit itself. One way or another an answer needed rounded up. Glad you saw the work being done for the map needed here.

Rhino · « **Reply #72 on:** November 08, 2006, 09:38:59 PM »

Yup. Ditto what he said!!

Rhino

Texas 103 · « **Reply #73 on:** November 09, 2006, 12:03:34 AM »

Quote

Well I am glad to some progress today at least.

Back on topic. Since JK said they were shipping has anyone got one as of yet??? Who is going to be the frist to have theirs installed?

Be Safe

THE DAWG

I should get mine Friday , If they in fact shipped Tuesday 11/7/..It will be on Friday night>>>>>>Greg

jdk20723 · « **Reply #74 on:** November 09, 2006, 02:08:19 AM »

Please see our Vendor site for some Q&A about ThunderMax AutoTune.

Greg, your unit did ship Tuesday, thanks for your trust in us, JK

Twolanerider · « **Reply #75 on:** November 09, 2006, 03:18:11 AM »

http://www.thunder-max.com/

Texas 103 · « **Reply #76 on:** November 09, 2006, 08:10:48 AM »

Quote

Well I am glad to some progress today at least.

Back on topic. Since JK said they were shipping has anyone got one as of yet??? Who is going to be the frist to have theirs installed?

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Dawg,I should have mine today, any luck installed by tonight>>> Greg

Texas 103 · « **Reply #77 on:** November 09, 2006, 08:13:16 AM »

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Speaking to Dawg's question on delivery and Rhino's accurate portrayal of the question on base maps I know I'm likely halfway home but still only assuming I am ok on the other. There was UPS delivery notice here when I got back this evening. A box from Zippers is in town. Assuming nothing unexpected in the package that should answer the delivery question.

The base map question, however, is still somewhat in the asked but unanswered category that characterizes much of what we've been discussing here lately. More than a month ago I sent Kitzmiller a message that discussed base maps, described the exhaust I'd be hanging on the parts they were sending me and asking if the base map would be satisfactory to start with. It was a question I never got an answer to.

So while I am willing to assume that the control range of the system can handle the variances attributable to something as minimal as different exhaust systems, and I am willing to assume they wouldn't send a system out without an adequate base map to start from within it; I can't say what's really there or absolutely know what to expect because they never told me.

I will, of course, know before it gets hung on the bike. But this instance as has been others was one where a question's answer went missing.

Twolane, I should get mine today, I'll have in in there ASAP and keep you posted>>> Greg

Texas 103 · « **Reply #78 on:** November 09, 2006, 08:16:24 AM »

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Please see our Vendor site for some Q&A about ThunderMax AutoTune.

Greg, your unit did ship Tuesday, thanks for your trust in us, JK

You are welcome JK and I;m sure the producet will perform>> Greg

Boatman · « **Reply #79 on:** November 09, 2006, 10:00:30 AM »

JDK was up late last night updating the Vendor section with answers and links to product operation. Thanks, that's what we needed!

Twolanerider · « **Reply #80 on:** November 09, 2006, 10:44:19 AM »

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JDK was up late last night updating the Vendor section with answers and links to product operation.

nixobilly · « **Reply #81 on:** November 09, 2006, 12:03:40 PM »

I dug around the site looking for a listing of the maps and didnt find one.

Does anybody have a link to the 110 maps?

PS I did download the software but you have to have a key to activate it...

Thanks,

Mark

icybay · « **Reply #82 on:** November 09, 2006, 04:44:40 PM »

I received a call this morning from Pete to let me know my closed loop system was shipping. Pete was generous with his time and he answered all my questions that I had from the installed TMax. I was happy to know they have upgraded the software to make it more user friendly in the AFR adjustment sectors. You can now adjust the TMax by RPM range instead of throttle percentage. This should make it far easier to adjust for power/ economy modes. Youcan also adjust the AFR on a global scale across the RPM range. Looking forward to getting the closed loop in the next week and trying it out when the Northwest rains and floods subside.

Boatman · « **Reply #83 on:** November 09, 2006, 06:57:33 PM »

Nixobilly-

The key code is: 85MDN1ZJXXPF-4

nixobilly · « **Reply #84 on:** November 09, 2006, 07:18:56 PM »

Ah, many thanks!

No 110 maps found in database.... also did update.

The app looks really good though, much, much more than PCIII.

Mark

Unbalanced · « **Reply #85 on:** November 09, 2006, 08:59:07 PM »

I followed up with Zippers today in regards to the 110 Autotune. They said they will be a while longer as they need to build a driver board (guessing like a daughter board for PC's... Best analogy I could come up with) for them to support the 110 motor due to the compression releases. They need to build a driver to support the compression releases this will take some time as they need to build the board, then marry it to the ECM and then mass produce it. I was given no time table other than they want it as badly as we do. The good news is they are working on the 110 maps they have a bike in house that they have disabled the compression releases on, so that they can make the maps for the 110 bikes. All the ducks are lining up its just a matter of time now. And before you ask, No time frame has been expressed or given nor did I ask for a round about idea.

-harry

nixobilly · « **Reply #86 on:** November 09, 2006, 10:34:14 PM »

UB,

Thanks for the update.

I work with lotsa folks who do development so i understand "No wine b4 its time".

I will go ahead and do sert 'cause it is cheap and i can tune it for what i have installed.

when the wine is ready, i'll pull my sert'd MOCO ECM and do the wide band zip in the spring to feed my OCD if it works.

cheers,

Mark

ps RobMAY

jdk20723 · « **Reply #87 on:** November 10, 2006, 07:56:24 AM »

Regarding the 110, several thing we have noticed so far:

The 110 uses the SE255 cam, an extremely narrow cam profile probably designed (probably? LOL) for emissions. This engine has higher cranking compression than any other modern H-D powerplant (hence the compression release), and owners probably have noticed the propensity for pinging. This is also the compliant cam H-D is supplying with the 103 kit for 96" engines. It requires some pretty tricky timing maps to control detonation. The maps we develop for this cam will be quite different than previous timing maps. There are better cam choices out there, but we are building maps for this application because the dealers will be selling them by the bucketful. We will also test our current design cams in 96, 103 and 110" engines, but of course, this all takes TIME.

The stock header pipes and crossover system within does create some difficulty for the closed loop as reversion pollutes the readings of the oxygen sensor at some RPM ranges. This can lead to some exhaust popping in those ranges with some brands of mufflers. I'll post which work better than others when we test more. A true dual headpipe eliminates this issue, and is recommended for better performance.

The compression release enabled prototype ThunderMax is undergoing testing at Zippers now and will be a part of an already-in-progress board revision that we anticipate releasing shorty after the first of the year. Maps will be released soon.

Some clarification as to why I am ALWAYS vague about when a product will be released: Testing is a dynamic process; meaning it can be ever-changing. If an issue with a component or process is found, corrections to that component are made, then you go back to testing. Upon more testing, there is always the possibility that the last correction or change can lead to more issues with another connected component or process.

This is why I can't forcast an exact date of when a product will be "done". It's "done" when it has been thoroughly tested and we are satisfied that we have a product ready for market. Once that happens, production parts are made, and then have to endure another round of tests to make sure the production parts do what the prototype parts did.

At this time of year, lots of testing goes on, for many different products. Along with the ongoing ThunderMax development (this product will always be undergoing some type of testing for new or enhanced features - and as they envolve, you can update yours with an internet connection), we also design and manufacture our own line of camshafts, cylinder head designs, complete engine kits, participate in the testing of software and many other products such as upcoming 1-piece 54 and 60mm throttle bodies, fuel injection for the Sportster, etc, etc, etc.

When H-D releases a new engine platform or three, there is a lot of work to be done. We are a small company (30 employees, everybody works, no desk jockeys) which is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because we can respond quickly to changes, a curse because there is only so much we can do in a day (we're only "one-a somebodies"). Some folks have mentioned here that they think we have taken a cavalier approach to them or their problems, wants or needs. This is not the case at all. We didn't get to where we are (25 years at this now) by shirking our responsibilities to our customers, and that will never change.

I will be working for the next few months on updating our catalog and will not be able to participate here as much here as I would like. I will respond to PM's and jump in here when I can (there have been and will be gaps), but suggest anyone that has any questions about our products to call our sales team. Bill, Pat, John Williams, Pete and Lisa will be happy to help you. But if they tell you they can't give you an exact delivery date on a new product, it's for the above reasons. But rest assured, we're on the job.

As always, I/we appreciate all of your business, past, present and future. This board is one of the more civilized ones on the net, its members reflecting the reason I got into this business in the first place - because it's fun! Thanks, JK

Twolanerider · « **Reply #88 on:** November 10, 2006, 12:01:35 PM »

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As always, I/we appreciate all of your business, past, present and future.

jdk20723 · « **Reply #89 on:** November 13, 2006, 11:27:46 AM »

Here's a DynoJet sheet on the 110 with our "Zip Kit".

Author Topic: zippers ECM and Closed loop system for 07... (Read 12852 times)

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