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[Midnight Rider]

Glad to hear that things are finally being taken care of/communicated to those who are waiting.  This system promises to be a good one, and I am especially anxious to hear of it getting on some bikes and hearing some evaluations of the performance/operation.

This system and Zippers Gear Driven Cams are both a year + out for me, but knowing things like this are available will let me get an exhaust system already set up for the change....O2 bungs installed.

[Hoist!]

Can someone clearly explain the different types of ECM modifications? My understanding (and I'm trying to better understand it, so I'm not sure if I'm correct) is that as of the '07 models, you can not do any ECM recalibrations. You need to modify the behavior of the ECM or replace it. There seems to be 4 levels or ways of doing this.

1. Products like SERF, V&H Fuelpak, Cobra FI2000 Digital Fuel Processor. These devices give you "carb" like control, like accelerator pump adjustment, high speed and intermediate jetting.
2. Products like Power Commander and Techlusion. These allow similar adjustments and some "mapping" around various known added components. They trick the ECM into changing its parameters, thereby allowing the supposedly correct A/F for given loads.
3. The SERT or Direct Link systems. These actually try to remap the ECM based on actual named added components in the mod and fine tune the ECM for operation around these components. It also allows input for A/F settings. Howevew, they also burn the remap into the ECM so the Factory knows what you've done. This could effect warranty as you can not remove the evidence of the change.
4. Last, the Thundermax AutoTune by Zippers. The first 3 are add-ons. This unit actually replaces the HD ECM that comes with the bike. It actually is a hardware change and complete reprogramming and remapping so the motors are set up optimally for given performance applications.

I think I got most of this correct. Please correct anything I'm confused about. My further confusion comes with the "open loop, closed loop, partial closed loop, with the O2's or with them disabled, etc.
WHAT DO THESE THINGS MEAN and how do they affect the operation of the '07 Fuel Injection and Ignition System??? Are ther absolute correct and incorrect things to do to these systems (do's and don'ts)?
I'm hoping someone can clearly explain this or refer me somewhere to better understand today's systems. I'm a carb guy and understand jetting, mixture, accelorator pumps and idle. I need to fully understand this FI thing to help make the right component changes for my desired riding characteristics and cost.
Hope to hear from someone on this. Thanks,
Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

Thanks for the post Don. As DOOD once said, YOU ARE DA MANNNN!!!!!

As of right now I will be waiting for the closed loop to be insalled on PUNKIN. It still needs the map to be completed and a choice in exhaust system needs to be made. When the guys at Zippes get caught up and get a little time we will get it finished.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Mike, your post here begs a question that I'd suggested at once in a message somewhere but not specifically asked.  If you've seen info enough on the system to suggest an answer or if Kitz sees this either might throw it in.

The question is how "auto" tuning is the auto tuning function when the system is in closed loop relative to whatever base map is started from.  Or to put it another way, how important is the base map when you've jumped from the T-Max by itself to the ECM with the closed loop hardware additional.

The area where this is especially prevalent in my mind is the "what if" thing sometime later.  An important side benefit of the closed loop system is the system's ability to (hopefully) effectively tune relative to the ambient hardware environment and natural environment.  However, if the base map still comes significanctly in to play that would suggest that hardware changes dramatically different enough from where it started might impact on the system's ability to compensate.

[Unbalanced]

Ok lets start at the top vs. trying to pick your post apart Hoist.

The SERT scream eagle race tuner actually reprograms your ECM as if Harley did it either from a base map that is in the software or one done to specification by a tuner such as a map for 13to 1 fuel ratios or 14 to 1 fuel ratios for both cylinders.   There is no additional pieces that stay on the bike they are only there for the recalibration.  You will want to clarify your ADD ON .. its an add on to the sale but you dont have to have anything extra on the bike when you ride it it does  what it does to the brain of the bike and is removed and the changes stay in the brain (ECM)

The Powercommander is there as an ADD on item that lies / tricks the ECM to get the results its looking for.  The only issue with a product like this is it could die and if it dies as a piggy back item to your ECM you may have to have the bike trailered vs. riding a too lean bike since your base map is setup for harley's closed air filter and their 2 into 1  70 / 30 pipe setup.

Thunder max which is a direct replacement for the ECM and monitors itself and works just like the harley system does but allows for some self learning by the unit based on your bikes tendancies.  It is an Alpha-n PRODUCT.  It has more tables than the Harley ECM allowing for more tunability.  Basically you install a base map then within X percentage it tunes the bike to what its set for.   Takes a small amount of time, but very useful.

Auto Tune by Zippers is an ADD on to the Thundermax ECM and uses Wide Band Sensors to read your Air Fuel Ratio from start of bike to shut down of bike.   This is when installed is the optimal way to keep your bike at X setting because it is constantly monitoring all systems where the stock 07 bungs are filled with Narrow Band sensors that monitor only up to 30 percent throttle / idle.

The Fuel Paks, Harley system are all just fuel add ons like the DFO's the problem is they really only help add fuel really arent a true tunable item.   Besides placing one ofr seat of the pants is ok, but for a 30k machine I am putting it on a dyno and making sure the changes are right so in my opinion you can keep all those TFO, DFO's fuel paks etc.

There is one other you didnt mention out there which is also a self contained unit called the Daytona Twin Tec.   I know some have tried it and most of them have switched not all but a lot of them havent stayed with it.   I found to many people I talked with to not like the updates / or the installation process, but its there for more information gathering for you.

Hope this helps clear up some more of your questions.   You can also send me a PM if you want to discuss any of this happy to spend the time if it will help you undersand the scenarios.

-harry

[Unbalanced]

Don,

From my conversations with Danny while trying to install the Closed Loop on my 07 he said its capable of a 20% swing in changes.   If you have a strong running Thundermax map or are mostly happy with it it should then take care of any spots it sees as issues and bring them up to where you want them.

-harry

[DCFIREMANN]

Twolane I do know you need a base map. How far + or -  from the original base map as far as adjustment for the wide band sensors go I don't think is a problem. You can set your A/F ratio and the closed loop system will keep it there. It will auto adjust for ambient changes.

I think they coverd most bases in the development of this system. I also do know that they would not release it till they had the bugs out of the system. When they were testing on the dyno and on the street they did run into a few VERY MINOR problems. They would not ship any of the units until all bases were clear. I know it is frustrating but if while on the dyno they encounter a problem everything stops till they fix the problem. When you are working with computers and have a problem with the operating system how long does it take to address and repair the problem? They didn't know either and were at the mercy of testing till all of the problems were repaired. They know as well it went way longer then they had originally thought. I am just glad they got the bugs worked out and are now shipping the product.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Twolanerider]

Don,

From my conversations with Danny while trying to install the Closed Loop on my 07 he said its capable of a 20% swing in changes.

[Hoist!]

Harry, Thanks so much for the rundown and clarifications. What does closed loop/partially closed/open loop refer to . Is this referring to the feed back to the ECM bsed on various operating conditions vs. preprogrammed stuff? I understand the narrow vs. wideband thing. Thanks for your help in understanding this. I'll be up to speed (get it!) in no time. Now that I'm understanding the various aspects of it, this Zipper's AutoTune thing seems like best way to go, as long as it work's reliably and as intended. Thanks again. Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

They didn't know either and were at the mercy of testing till all of the problems were repaired. They know as well it went way longer then they had originally thought. I am just glad they got the bugs worked out and are now shipping the product.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

That's all completely and perfectly understandable Mike.

[hogasm]

Can a map from a PC or other tuner be given to Zippers and their base map be produced from this?
Or does the base map have to be produced from scratch?

Hogasm

[Rhino]

Hi Guys,

Jus thought I would add my .02.   Zippers first is taking a stock 110 SE CUSE2. The are mappiing about 1,985 different combinations of throttle opening and fuel supply.  They are going for a 13.1 AFR or Air to fuel ratio, electronically. This is for best performance. So, compared to a stock bike, this is more precise. Any way you twist the throttle and no matter what gear you choose, with 1,985 combinations, you should be within that range easily while it maintains your AFR.  

Now, there are certain after market items.  Zippers takes each common combination and will do the same for that 13.1.  If you add Rhinehart Duals, Zippers will have a map for that. If you add a A/C, Zipperes will do that too. Slip Ons, K & N, etc..  They need a bit of time to work the different combinations.  They then create a particular map or baseline map, for that combi. We are concerned with the AFR's. ZIppers maps handle all the other stuff so we don't have to be programmers.

From THAT point, the closed loop will keep the fuel ratio. SInce it will only allow certain (maybe 20%) automated or manual corrections, you need to have a base map for the changes you have made on your bike.
If you download the zippers smartIV software, you can go to the lookup tables and see the combinations they have done for the 06 bikes. There are a lot. 07 will take a bit to get going, but it will.  

The closed loop portion is different than the stock application, becasue the stock bike only runs in closed loop in a narrow range. It becomes open loop when you accel or decel.  The wide band that ZIppers has allows it to stay in closed loop, hence the AFR will remain close to constant.  The advantage is that 13.1 is good wherever your combination takes you, vs EPA regs that will occur on stock stock, (EPA).

Finally, understand why there is a range you can manually adjust.  For example, you can tweak so many different things you can give yourself a headache, but, lets say you are going on a long cross country trip. You can change the AFR to 14, which is still safe, but it will really increase your fuel economy. But it will not perform as strong.  Now, what will happen, is that ZIppers is going to release a way for on the bike changes to AFR, so you do not have to use a computer on the road.   That product exists now, but doesn't fit our Ultras yet.  From the speedo, you can not only monitor parameters in the ecm< YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR afr'S.  I think it is going to be a beautiful thing for sure.

See:   http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=583&prod=2098

It does AFR. They may not have mentioned that.  

When they come up with a bezel to match, it would be a nice replacement for the stock speedo for certain.

Rhino

[Ironhorse]

Great news on the closed loop system being shipped?
Who do I call to check on my order?

DC Fireman,

Didja get a chance to speak to Dan yet? He has not reponded to my e-mails. I tried calling Dan again today but he was not taking calls, at least from me anyway. So I spoke to Randy. I told him what Dan told me on Monday Oct 30th, that there is a working ECM for my bike, and that it is closed loop compatible. Randy said he didn't know about that and would check with Dan and get back to me.

Mike I'm kind of getting frusrated here. I know they are working on my new ECM, but the frustration comes from the dark hole of information I get when I try to speak to them and get a straight answer. They may see me as impatient, and that may be partly true. But I AM A PAYING CUSTOMER. I bought and paid for their expensive system and it does not work properly. My speedo and turn signals do not function correctly, and I am getting 27mpgs. Whenever I try to address this with them, all I get is the "we're working on it" reply. This has been going on since September. How much longer should I put up with this? Is this the normal operating procedure for Zippers, to take money, and then leave a customer hanging with an improperly operating bike, and never contact him with an update?

What is a reasonable time frame for trying to get a straight answer from Zippers? I don't think I am out of line for trying to find out. I find it hard to believe, that I will never get a straight answer from Zippers for an indefinete amount of time, and that an improperly functioning bike and 27 mpgs is resonable and acceptable return for a $2,000.00 investment. You keep saying that they will stand behind the product and bend over backwards to help, but I just don't see it here with me. If anyone is getting bent over I think it's me. All I want from them is a straight answer.

Mike, answer me this question, how would you feel if you were in my boots?

[Unbalanced]

Ironhorse,

first myself nor mike is going to speak for Zippers, while we may be proponents for them here on the site and in public we have only an ability to carry the message forward.

[Hoist!]

Thanks Rhino for taking the time to explain the "loop" scenarios. When this AutoTune system gets perfected and enough maps written for various applications, this sounds like the optimum system. Thanks to you and Harry for helping me better understand it. Hoist!

[Hoist!]

Ironhorse, I'd be bummed too. Can you put it back to stock or semi-stock in the meantime easily enough? For what it's worth, I've known Zippers to stand behind their stuff. I think this AutoTune thing needs time to get everything right. After all it's still trials and errors. Someone else is doing it all and putting it on a disc. That's gotta take time. Maybe it shouldn't have been offered to you yet. All new stuff has bugs, but stand-up companies stand behind their stuff and I think Zippers will come through. Hang in there. Hoist!