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[CVOMOE!!]

Thanks for the info Don and HD-DUDE.  Makes a lot of sense and it is something I will be looking at in the Spring for sure.  I did the cams on my 95" Ultra a couple of years ago and the tensioner shoes were (inside one) was totally shot and almost down to the spring at 20,000 miles.  Makes me a little nervous now.

Cheers, Moe [smiley=banana.gif]

[Twolanerider]

After following your stuff, Iwould have never expected anything less. And you now have these 2 extra strong parts to help insure that. That motor's gonna run sweet. Can't wait to see what kind of numbers it runs after break-in and dyno tuning. Are you going to dyno tune even though you have the AutoTune? Hoist!

Sometime in the spring I'll get it spun on a dyno just to satisfy my own curiousity.  Will be interested to see what it reports.  Won't have any further tuning done though.  Quite frankly even were I so inclined it's not really an option.  No one I know within any kind of riding distance who is equipped or trained to tune the Thundermax.

The huge benefit to the T-Max and it's attendant autotune components are that we can swap parts (within reason) and not have to extend the price of those changes with a dyno tune everytime.  Another is that the system apparently should get you awfully darned good on its own.  The one downside though is that it is relatively proprietary.  

Reading the system won't be a big deal.  Tuning it is just about a Zippers-only task (with but a few exceptions).  So if one were so inclinded to just wring every possible .10th out of it doing this isn't really an option.  However......  given the variability that comes from even a relatively competent tuner using a SERT or PC I'm inclined to think that a bike specific system that is constantly monitoring and "learning" the bike it's on is likely to be as or more effective as the efforts of most tuners we accept.

[Twolanerider]

Thanks for the info Don and HD-DUDE.

[Hoist!]

Sometime in the spring I'll get it spun on a dyno just to satisfy my own curiousity.

[Twolanerider]

Speaking of which.....I heard of a new system today called Terminal Velocity, I believe. It's an add-on to the stock ECM (not a replacement). By adding this, you convert your stock system to a constant sampling closed loop system, similar to the TMax .

I've looked at the specs on that before.  It's an Alpha N type unit from a company called Terry Components.  They even had a version that worked on the old M&M bikes.  But personally I'd not be interested in using it.  The installation method is enough to keep me from doing so.

At least when I last looked at them it only sniffed one cylinder rather than two; but that wasn't the biggest drawback for me.  To install it you had to open up the ECM plug and you also had to solder in to several of the wires to the ECM.  It's a cut and splice install done at the ECM.  

Granted, I'm pretty handy with the tools and dexterity to do that kind of chore.  But I still don't want to.  And just the thought of it is going to freak a lot of people out.  The device needs to advance a generation with the mftrs developing an interconnect harness (or something).  They also need (if they haven't done so already) to sniff both cylinders since the OE and aftermarket standards both now do just that.

[Hoist!]

I've looked at the specs on that before.

[DCFIREMANN]

HOIST the one thing about the Thunder Max auto tune is it has WIDE BAND O2 sensors not narrow band like most of the other systems on the market. What that means is it is constantly tuning the ECM. The narrow band units only tune when the sensor reaches a certain temp. Meaning it will open and cloe the loop at various times. I would much preder this over the SERT. Not to mention the adjustment points the T max has over the Sert. The Tmax has over 1900 adjustment points as oposed the less than 200 for the Sert. That will give you better driveability and better tuning.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Hoist!]

HOIST the one thing about the Thunder Max auto tune is it has WIDE BAND O2 sensors not narrow band like most of the other systems on the market. What that means is it is constantly tuning the ECM. The narrow band units only tune when the sensor reaches a certain temp. Meaning it will open and cloe the loop at various times. I would much preder this over the SERT. Not to mention the adjustment points the T max has over the Sert. The Tmax has over 1900 adjustment points as oposed the less than 200 for the Sert. That will give you better driveability and better tuning.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

I agree with you Mike. After warranty, I'll do what I want to the bike. Until then, I just want it to run properly. My thinking is that the SERT will offer the best and easiest way to deal with MoCo, while having the bike run decently in the meantime. The wide band closed loop with continuous monitoring, tuning and adjustment seems like the only real way to properly control the bike. You need to convince me that it will make it easier to maintain my warranty with the TMax vs. the SERT. I'm hoping you can. Waiting two years for it is not so bad as an alternative though. Thanks Mike.

[syclone]

HOIST the one thing about the Thunder Max auto tune is it has WIDE BAND O2 sensors not narrow band like most of the other systems on the market. What that means is it is constantly tuning the ECM. The narrow band units only tune when the sensor reaches a certain temp. Meaning it will open and cloe the loop at various times. I would much preder this over the SERT. Not to mention the adjustment points the T max has over the Sert. The Tmax has over 1900 adjustment points as oposed the less than 200 for the Sert. That will give you better driveability and better tuning.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

narrow band o2 sensors start to and continue to work once they reach a temp of 200 degrees "C".  but they are "narrow " band because they can only tell the ECM if the fuel ratio is above or below 14.7:1. they are an "on" - "off" sensor. The fuel ratio is never static when they are being used to make adjustments....rather , it's always rich-lean-rich-lean, just above and below the 14.7:1 target...its a continous average so to speak. Each time the ratio goes just above or below the 14.7;1 target...is called a "cross count"  The ECM is programmed to monitor the sensors for fuel control only during idle and periods of steady state cruise conditions...other times it just ignores them and delivers fuel based on the internal map..but they are always delivering the "yes"-"no" signal. The motor is then in closed loop only when the  ECM wants and uses their input...since it "knows" that under a load or an acceleration event the sensor will be fixed on the rich side above 14.7:1....but cant tell by how much.
5 or 7 wire heated wide band o2 sensors know the amount of oxygen left in the exhaust stream  at all times, under all conditions so an engine controller can use their input from idle to wide open throttle and every place in between.
The T-max is a good system...for sure... but it has to have 1,900 points of adjustment,because it is not load based (ignores the MAP Sensor) and has to constantly compute engine load ,off of the T.P.S. and RPM rate of change.
If it were to use the MAP signal....it would have 200 some odd cells like the SERT.
Then we are talking a closed loop controller that would be much more expensive....different technology.

[DCFIREMANN]

Thanks syclone. When I said they are off and on I should have been a little clearer.  You were very clear on the operation of the sensors though. Thanks

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Hoist!]

narrow band o2 sensors start to and continue to work once they reach a temp of 200 degrees "C".

[syclone]

Unfortunately it comes naturally...been dealing with engine control systems...BROKEN ONES mostly......ever since 1982. Mostly GM (Delphi) some Ford and the cager drag race stuff like F.A.S.T.
(Fuel-Air-Spark-Technologies)  their wide band race controllers with 2-3-4 bar map sensors(lots of boost !!) data recording, nitrous control etc....run over $2000.00
And ..the current Delphi system used on the '06-'07 bikes , is pretty crude actually, when compared with what's running around today on 4 wheels.

[DCFIREMANN]

Unfortunately it comes naturally...been dealing with engine control systems...BROKEN ONES mostly......ever since 1982. Mostly GM (Delphi) some Ford and the cager drag race stuff like F.A.S.T.
(Fuel-Air-Spark-Technologies)

[Boatman]

The MOCO won't spend any more money than it has to..   It might take a few years,   but eventually the bikes will run right from the factory.   (We can always hope).

[Hoist!]

The MOCO won't spend any more money than it has to..