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[FlaHeatWave]

From what I understand, Revolution Performance / T-Man / Wiseco have increased the thickness of the Coating on the "updated" Pistons as well as the 3mm Oil Rings...

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Well the coating that is used will help but its not a fix and a thicker oil ring will not fix the design on the piston either.. A ring is not for piston stabilization. It may slightly aid in it but over time if the piston is rocking it will only create a issue with oil control . The reason for the thicker ring was piston rock to start with.. Its a band aid at best.. There is a reason that many builders are not found of that wiseco brand of piston.

Bummer if you think about it , but Even S&S did not step back into that area for the 107 piston even though they use it in the 106 kit and wiseco does have a 107 piston that can be bought.. They opted for a CP . 

[HD Street Performance]

Not mentioned but Wiseco supplies Rev Perf. with very low tension rings for compatibility with the Nikasil.
With a slipper skirt Wiseco there is very small area to stabilize the piston in the cylinder, about the size of a dime contact when new. Although the rings are not the main item that determines stability they certainly factor in especially with such short narrow skirts. Not a real happy combo.

[FlaHeatWave]

Hi Ed.  Sorry to her about the issues.  I'm not following the piston slap without any witness marks.  Especially with the piston skirt coating being intact. But I just ride em, no wrenching. 

Andrew has always worked with me on any issue.  My Nikasil are sitting on a shelf waiting for Lexi to eat the Axtell Kit.  However Lexi is a whole different animal.  Where's that principal's office in case I need to drop her buy?

Ride safe.

JW

Jeff, if the exorcism didn't do it, I don't know what will

One of the Principal's Offices was the S&S transporters at BikeWeek when we were hearing a Lifter noise, I guess the locations vary as to the Components being scrutinized??? LMAO

[FlaHeatWave]

As always, I'm thanking you guys for the feedback. I have some questions, some thoughts, and some theories...
I know...I know... Theory doesn't always translate to the real world...

Those that have followed this Thread know that longevity in a Sport Touring platform was the primary focus, and that I kinda "backed into" the 117 from the 113...

Since then, I have seen / known some folks to have issues with the 4.060 set-ups, mostly heat related (liner too thin??), although (maybe due to earlier Nicasil issues) I don't personally know of any running the Nicasil 4.060 Kit. The 4.060s should have better stability since a larger Skirt can be used???

Could be the reason the MoCo chose to go 4.060 / 4-5/8 in the 120s?? forgoing Increased Piston Speed for the stability of the Larger Skirts?? 'Hard to discern since I've yet to see any reliable reports of 120s with big trouble free miles  ...

The reasons (theories) that I chose the 117, is less Piston Speed and less (Piston) deflection angle over the 4-5/8 Crank 124...

I think that we agree that there is a Piston Stability issue with the 4.125 Pistons in the Twin Cam, mostly due to the relatively small Skirts necessitated by the TC Geometry and Pistons of this size?? Yes, the 3mm Oil Rings, Nitrided Oil Rails and thicker Skirt Coatings might seem a "bandaid" to some, but remember that the "powers that be" are dealing with the confines of the TC Geometry... When the dike is leaking... you stick a finger in every hole you can find...   

One of the reasons (theories again ) that I liked the Nicasils is that the Piston to Wall Clearance of Forged Pistons is 1/2 of Ductile Iron due to the more compatible expansion rates... 'Figured that less Clearance might add Piston stability??

Note that the Nicasil does not appear to be any issue in my case, and that folks are having the exact same issues with Ductile Iron... The jury is still out on the Steel HD Drop-In Kits as the miles are accumulated??   

In the Forums that I am active on I don't see any detailed Postings by folks with bigger miles and 4.125s and what Piston / Ring / Cylinder combinations they are using??? With the Geometry in play, I don't see how the Skirts can be much larger??

I would like to hear what set-ups of this size that folks (honest sources) are getting big(ger) trouble free miles out of???

Gotta finish changing the fluids in the '09... "The Ball & Chain" has informed me that she "Needs some Breeze"

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Its not so much the length of the skirt but the degree of taper in a given piston. .  .  Use of 4032 vs 2618 is another way to run a tighter piston to wall spec. As you said you do your best to " plug the leaks" 

[FlaHeatWave]

Its not so much the length of the skirt but the degree of taper in a given piston. .  .  Use of 4032 vs 2618 is another way to run a tighter piston to wall spec. As you said you do your best to " plug the leaks"

Just out of curiosity...

Is it 4032 or 4132 ??

Who makes / sells Piston / Ring Packs for this application?

What clearance can be run on a street motor with these Pistons?

What Cylinders are the 4032 / 4132 compatible with??

What potential "downsides" to running this different alloy??

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

its 4032 and many use this type of material to build pistons. In fact Wiseco does on the pro tru piston but the 2618 is the main line. But even with the different material the shape of the piston can be just as important.

if you set a 2618 at  2.5 piston to wall many of the 4032 are at 2 thou . each piston will have its own spec . Downside for a V twin none . now on a power adder type build the 2618 is used more often . As it will go into a plastic like stage before it goes terminal where as the 4032 tend to break apart.. Either way its well outside of the usage that 99.5 % of the v twin user will ever see. Also broke is broke its more about not breaking as many parts ..

I have run 4032 and 2618 in my race car. I have broken parts in the past. I ran over 400 worth of NOS on the 4032 and they did fine. the new pistons after the crank let go and damaged  some parts are CP 2618.

KB forged pistons Mahle, Diamond all have the 4032 as well many others

In the end myself have never been a over whelming huge fan of Wiseco .  Have seen several where the skirt has cracked from the under side.  They leave a sharp edge when machined,.. in some case's after the piston could bobble it would crack the skirt on either side of the pin boss up to the oil control ring area. 

Ring pack is the issue with the type of cylinder you have. Low tension is what they have to make the coating not streak.  I do not use those kits for several reasons. but that is my choice.. I hope that the new kit works well for you and you have no further issues. But if you do maybe do some research and see what is out there from a few places . Provided you can get the same land size the ring pack is a simple swap .

[HD Street Performance]

Steve laid it out well.
One more thing.
Once Nikasil travels in a motor the whole thing needs to be rebuilt. EVERYTHING cleaned including disassembling the crank as that crud gets everywhere.
Good luck and hope it works out for you.

[FlaHeatWave]

Yea, I get it... you guys aren't fans of Nicasil... 'Truth be known, I don't have a Nicasil tattoo on my a$$...

If you guys know of any tried and true TC 4.125 Cylinder / Piston / Ring Kits or packages that are proven to give consistently better longevity than I have reported here,,,,,, I'm all ears... please Post a link in this Thread...

As far as the Nicasil traveling through the motor and causing damage... yea, that stuff is harder than times twenty nine, and more abrasive than my ex-wife...           

[HD Street Performance]

I buy cylinders from S&S, custom dimensions. I then bore and hone them to the pistons. They seal, run quiet and last.
Pistons to suit the application from either CP, Diamond, or KB (Forged), line2line coating as an option

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Don set up is what many of us have gone to now.. It has gotten to the point that the "kits" are good but in some cases it better to build it your way. S&S cylinder is the top pick however they use wiseco so we are on to a custom piston , and then on to the next custom item.

[FlaHeatWave]

Don't take me wrong... I'm not trying to put words in anybody's mouth, correct me if I'm off base here??

There is no 4.125 "Kit" (currently) available that has proven significantly superior longevity to (what I've Posted,,, my personal documented experience) the Nicasils???

The S&S Cylinders seem to be a favorite, albeit as Don has Posted in a Custom Order Configuration, Dimensions, then add Custom Pistons, then taking the Custom Pistons and having them Custom Coated, Line2Line, and Custom (or Special Order) Ring Packs... Nothing anywhere near "off the shelf" here...

While I commend you Builders for trying to figure out a "solution",   your criteria for "they last" might be different than mine, and what I've experienced with my set-up... "What we felt were the best Components available at the time" Again, don't get me wrong,,, acquiring reliable data on something like this is pretty much impossible at your (mine too) level,,, so many variables...

Only now are we (publicly) seeing the MoCo do this on scale with the M8s...

S&S certainly has the "horsepower" to try / develop different Cylinder / Piston / Ring combinations yet they continue to support the Wiseco 2mm 2618 Pistons,,, Is cost the only consideration??? Surely there are there other reasons??? Good Luck getting a straight answer on that one,,,           

As a Consumer, I have neither the resources nor the wherewithal to attempt to develop a solution with Custom Components, so I will stick with "off the shelf" Components and try to get the best service life that I can...

In a prior life, I have participated in R&D with OEM Support, but at this stage, I will leave the R&D to folks that know more than I do, to Builders such as yourselves...

As you have both wished me; "Good luck, and hope it works out for you" (and your Customers)...

 
   

[HD Street Performance]

I am a bit confused
If you can let us figure out what works and sell you a plug and play product what's the issue?
Cost is higher but not any more than Harleys 117 bolt on kit. Time from order to receiving the product is longer, no biggie, just plan for it.

[FlaHeatWave]

I am a bit confused
If you can let us figure out what works and sell you a plug and play product what's the issue?
Cost is higher but not any more than Harleys 117 bolt on kit. Time from order to receiving the product is longer, no biggie, just plan for it.

When you guys "figure out" a plug and play Kit that has been tried and true, proven to have a service life significantly greater than what I'm currently running, 30k miles, 27-28k miles with no Oil Consumption, I will consider a purchase...

As I stated previously;
"In a prior life, I have participated in R&D ("figuring it out") with OEM Support"
"OEM Support" was the Manufacturer supplying all Components, compensation for labor, and Complete Engines / Long Blocks if necessary ... In exchange for "real world" feedback by an experienced, knowledgeable operator / Tech...

From the outset of this Build (and Thread) I was supplied with Components at cost or less so I would have difficulty justifying paying you guys more $$ for a yet to be proven product...

On the other hand, I know a guy with a well sorted test mule ...