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[HDGearHead]

What lapping compound and grit do you use when lapping the cam plate oil bypass plunger and seat?  I assume that it's not a silicon carbide based compound.   

Would something like Brownells Granet Lapping 600 grit compound be safe to use here (http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/abrasives/lapping-compounds/garnet-lapping-compounds-prod25658.aspx?psize=24)?

I bought a new SE Camplate and tested it with the 9010 Feuling Pressure Relief PSI Test Tool and found the bypass to be leaking out of the box starting at around 13-15 PSI.

After installing the Axtell Bypass kit, it appears to leak around the Axtell cartridge at about 4 psi (not at the valve seat within the cartridge) .  The Axtell valve that rides within the cartridge also seems to open at around 8 psi (much sooner than the standard OE plunger spring combo).

The stack height of the Axtell kit is seems to be correct (proper fit with no sizable gap between the cap and roll pin - just enough room to install the roll pin).

I don't see any obvious marks or nicks or feel an burrs on the cam plate plunger seat.

Is what I am observing with the Axtell normal?  Am I over thinking this?

[HOGMIKE]

I've used this for years:
http://www.newmantools.com/clover.htm

Seems to get the job done

 

[HDGearHead]

I just called Axtell.  The leakage and early valve opening that I am experiencing with their Bypass Kit is not normal.

They theorized that it may be the result of manufacturing tolerances.  They've generally found that the gold 25282-11 SE billet cam plate bypass valve seat is more consistent and flat that in the cast plates and they their kit usually seats well against it.

They also test each of their bypass kits before it leaves the factory, however they don't test it in a cam plate using the 9010 Feuling Pressure Relief PSI Test Tool.

Without my having to ask, they immediately offered to express shipping me a replacement even though I had purchased it from Zippers. 

I informed them that they wouldn't be getting mine back in the original condition that it was in when I purchased it.  I had already attempted to lap its internal valve to the cartridge and lightly polish the end of the cartridge to try and fix the leaking (had not yet attempted to lap the cartridge to the SE Cam Plate though).

Because of this I offered to pay for the new replacement part which they declined.

I will be returning mine to them once I receive the replacement.

Fingers crossed and hoping that the replacement works.  The SE Cam plate is still in its original condition (other than having had its roll pin removed).  If the replacement doesn't check out, I'll re-contact Axtell and see if they'd be interesting in having me ship them my cam plate to test.   Maybe the manufacturing tolerance problem resides in the SE Cam Plate and not their part.

So far, I am very impressed with Axtell's customer service and support.   

[HDGearHead]

I've used this for years:
http://www.newmantools.com/clover.htm

Seems to get the job done

 

Thanks Mike. 

I have a can of 400 grit clover.  However, generally silicon carbine is used for lapping hardened metals.  I'm concerned about using it on an aluminum seat and having the abrasive becoming embedded in it.   As a rule of thumb, the softer the metal the softer the abrasive, the hard the metal the harder the abrasive.

The SE bypass plunger and/or the Axtell Cartridge/valve assemble are steel.  The cam plate that they seat against which needs the lap is aluminum.

Would it cause any real world noticeable harm if I used silicon carbine for this in this one small area, I don't know...

[Steve Cole]

Might take a look at the seat area and see if they got anodize on it.

[HDGearHead]

Might take a look at the seat area and see if they got anodize on it.

The seat is the same gold color as the plate.  I assume the gold is from the anodization. 

I thought about lapping it, however, the person that I spoke with Axtell said it shouldn't be necessary.  Their cartridge was specifically designed to seat without needing to do this provided of course that there are no burrs, nicks or bubbles on the seat (or other malformations that sometimes appear in cast plates). 

If I were to lap it, I'm not sure how that would impact the fit of the bypass cartridge/cap stack. I recall Axtell mentioning that the clearance between the cap/cartridge stack and roll pin should be less than a couple of thousands; ideally none (for some reason <.003 is stuck in my mind).

I haven't actually measured mine, maybe I have a hair too much clearance (manufacturing tolerance differences).   I don't see how that would affect the internal valve within the cartridge which is now opening at around 8 psi though.    Axtell rep told me that shouldn't open until 50-55 psi.

The spring that holds the valve in mine does not seem to be very stiff as compared to the stock one.  Maybe I have a faulty/wrong spring.  That would reduce the spring pressure being applied by both the cartridge and internal valve against their corresponding seats.

Work in my cam chest is on hold for now.  Not just because of this though. 

The SE plate is a little thicker than the cast unit and from what I've read, this increases the chance of stripping the threads at the dowel pin locations.  So I going to install studs and use 12 point ARP fasteners at those two locations.   I had to order the studs and 12 points from summit racing.

I also discovered during disassembly that the cams weren't properly aligned.  While the marks on the primary cam chain side were  aligned, the dots on the cams were not.  It looks like they were off one tooth or possibly shifted when the tensioner was installed.  This might explain why its never run right since the dealer rebuilt the motor.

[HDGearHead]

Axtell Bypass Kit

[HDGearHead]

Has anyone here used the Fueling Cam Plate Relief Valve Bore Reamer 9008 to lightly machine/clean the valve seat (http://www.feulingparts.com/products/Tools/Camplate/9008)?

Its pretty expensive for a reamer, but am willing to buy one if its works and there is not a better alternative.

 

[Steve Cole]

The problem with Anodize that is used by most people is that it can and does effect the dimensions. You have to go with a hard anodize which cost more to really control it properly. This could be what your fighting as HD has never been known to go that extra step.

[HDGearHead]

For what they charge for the bike, parts and accessories, we should expect better.  Yet I keep coming back and buying from them...

Ignorance can be bliss.  If I hadn't bought the Feuling 9010 Tester, I wouldn't have know about the leak and would have just installed the parts.  Any question or concerns I had about oil pressure afterwards would have be assuaged by the dealer telling me that's normal for Harley...

I won't be surprised to find out that the cast camplate installed by dealer during the original re-build is also leaking.   Although the bike always seemed to maintain good pressure.  I'll going to test it sometime this weekend just to see.

[Steve Cole]

They all leak to some degree. If you look down the bore there really is no seat in the AL cast plate and the stock plunger doesn't seal well. If you thought it leaked now try heating the oil to 200 degree and rerun your test. It will look like the flood gates opened. I got so upset after the stock one leaked so bad I bought the billet one and it sucked too, so I took it back. I ended up modifying the stock one and it worked out great. Engine hot idle holds right at 20 psi with oil at 250 deg. and it's a stock pump and plate!

[HD Street Performance]

I agree
 
The OEM relief valve has a very low cracking pressure, wide span between full relief.
Google relief valve cracking pressure for an explanation. They were not intended to be a very precision hydraulic component. Line up a half dozen springs and you will see what I mean, the free lengths vary radically. I often wonder if the lack of precision was just the MOCO design tolerances because they planned for the seats to leak, part of the low cracking pressure.
Well good news is there are improvements we can make to tighten that up. I use Feulings tester to check all of them.

[hrdtail78]

When testing the Axtell bypass or any of them.  I oil up the parts.  Air can slide though place that oil doesn't as easy.  I also do it to eliminate friction of plunger and side wall.

The last Axtell I did.  I center punched on the outside of their drop in seat.  A line of 4 around the thing at 12, 3, 6, and 9.  Installed with Loctite green bearing an sealer and tapped it in with a brass dowel.  This was in a fueling plate which has a screw plug installed and can be removed to aid in removing the thing.  Not like the stock ball.

[HDGearHead]

I agree
 
The OEM relief valve has a very low cracking pressure, wide span between full relief.
Google relief valve cracking pressure for an explanation. They were not intended to be a very precision hydraulic component. Line up a half dozen springs and you will see what I mean, the free lengths vary radically. I often wonder if the lack of precision was just the MOCO design tolerances because they planned for the seats to leak, part of the low cracking pressure.
Well good news is there are improvements we can make to tighten that up. I use Feulings tester to check all of them.

When checking them, were should I draw the line as to whether the relief valve is performing well or improvements should be made before installation?  I don't want to chase this down the rabbit hole... but at the same time I want to install a properly functioning part (I probably should have bought a Fueling plate and pump)

When using the Feuling tester, I liberally oil the relief valve components before install and then slowly increase the pressure while monitoring for leaks. 

With the stock plunger installed, I could feel/hear a small amount of air escaping out the feed port starting at about 13-15 psi.  I assume this was point the valve reached its cracking pressure. Below that PSI, no air escaped.  As I continued to increase the pressure, the amount of air being bypassed seemed to increase proportionately.  I never really perceived what I would delineated as a clear pop off. 

With the Axtell ByPass installed, by the time I had reach 3-4 PSI, air was escaping through both the feed port and the pressure relief valve passage.  This indicated to me that air was making it past the cartridge seat and passing between the cartridge and the relief valve bore since the return to the feed port is supposed to be blocked by the cartridge.

I don't know if this was a result of the cartridge having a bad seat, its fit with the bore, or the strength of the spring or combination of all.

The only thing keeping the cartridge stack fully seated if there is any measurable space between the roll pin and cartridge stack is the small spring between the cap and valve riding inside the cartridge within the stack.  I have .001 to  .002 space between my roll pin and stack. 

As I continued to increase pressure, the leaking from both the feed port and relief valve passage continued to increase without much of a perceived difference between the two.

At around 8 PSI that amount of air escaping out the pressure relief valve passage started to become more pronounced (I assume this is the point at which the valve inside the cartridge had reached its cracking pressure). 

Continuing to Increasing pressure from this point steadily increased the amount of air escaping from both holes (although significantly more was escaping though the relief valve passage than through the feed port.

I'm hoping that the replacement Axtell kit being shipping to me will perform better.

[HDGearHead]

When testing the Axtell bypass or any of them.  I oil up the parts.  Air can slide though place that oil doesn't as easy.  I also do it to eliminate friction of plunger and side wall.

The last Axtell I did.  I center punched on the outside of their drop in seat.  A line of 4 around the thing at 12, 3, 6, and 9.  Installed with Loctite green bearing an sealer and tapped it in with a brass dowel.  This was in a fueling plate which has a screw plug installed and can be removed to aid in removing the thing.  Not like the stock ball.

That would definitely seat the cartridge and seal off the return passage to the feed side of the pump.  Like you described, the only drawback on the OE Cast/SE Billet plate is that it would make it nearly impossible to remove in the future.