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[tdowell65]

Wow my last post looked like a 1st grader wrote it.  Guess I better start checking back over them more. 
Steve recommends the sert.  Which is different from what most others have said.  His reason was that with a power commander is nothing more than a piggyback and you usually have to disconnect the o2 sensors which basically disconnets the auto tune.  Plus to really get it right you have to pay 350 to dyno.  I was concerned about the bike after throwing on the changed muffs and he explained how the bike is designed to recognize these changes and adjust for them. 

[miker]

You'll want the sert to disable the fly by wire wfo limiter anyway.

I am prolly going D&D slip on muffys, a super sert canned map for break in then D&D 2-1 fat cat quiet and dyno tune after break in...This is on the CUSE4....And for now...I know the 2-1 isn't the best option for SERG because a ghost pipe is need for asthetics but they can't be beat for torque.

[customryder]

Sure Man, you can do this.

Steve sent me pics of the disassembly. A die grinder is a rotary tool, like a dremmel. I will buy an electric with an extended reach (longer neck between the handle and chuck) from Harbor Freight $39.00. You just need to come up with a carbide cutting bit to put in the 1/4" arbor/chuck on the rotary tool.

Look at the muff tips and you will see that 3 screws will remove the tips. Even with the tips on, you look past them and see where the core faces are spot welded onto the inner wall of the muff sleeve. After removing the tips, just grind away at those spot welds a little at a time. I believe there are three spot welds per muff. Wear goggles and work with good lighting, I will bet that you can grind through those spot welds and..... presto pull out the stock baffles (cores). Then you will measure back from the tip in the location Steve provides you and drill a hole to mount the new cores internally. Be sure and center punch that hole spot for drilling so the drill bit doesn't crawl all over the chrome muff outer housing and screw it up. A drill press would probably be best for this step.

Talk to Steve, I really don't view this procedure as a big deal. If you want to wait, I will do this myself after Steve does the initial check out Friday. I've got to order the cores first, but Steve is reluctant to ship them until he knows that they will fit the new SERG muffs that he should receive this Friday. Hey great idea, thanks!

I could send you step by step pics if you like.. when I retro mine...

But, What the hell do I know??

 I would love to see the pic.. please send to customryder@comcast.net..

you can buy a drill bit especially for cutting spot welds for a few bucks.. any autobody supply shop.

 thanks,
Jeff

[GregKhougaz]

Iglide and guys, 

          Thanks for the info!  It seems you do know some things notwithstanding your signature line.  I don't get my SERG until mid October so my patience on this issue is enforced.  Your directions seem clear and doable.  I would love to see some pics when you get there.  By the time I'm ready maybe Rinehart will have a set of true duals w/ 4" muffs.  The old models worked great for me.  I sold a 103" RG w/ 257 cams that ran away from most (see below).  Still, I do like the look of the stock mufflers on the SERG....   Can't wait to hear how your comes out. 

Greg

[Greaseball]

You'll want the sert to disable the fly by wire wfo limiter anyway.

To my knowledge, the SERT does not do this.  I have no first hand experience with the SUPER SERT, so maybe there is a way with that particular tuner to overide the timings for fuel delivery.

[Greaseball]

Overall, I'm liking the idea of the Fullsac core conversions, so I'll be watching this thread as you other guys get on the cutting edge.  Heck, I can only watch as my bike will not get here until January, otherwise I'd be out on the edge with you.

I may b in the minority here, but the new exhaust system looks like a solid design with the front and rear cylinder exhaust merging together like a 2 into 1.  The fact that the pipe out of the merge that goes under the bike is smaller in diameter than the pipe that goes straight back to the right muffler means that, for the most part, this system will perform like a 2 into 1 except at higher rpm's (more exhaust volume and higher flow) where this smaller pipe will help bleed off the excess and therefore keep the backpressure down at higher rpm's.

Or maybe not..............time will tell with some dyno runs!!

[Iglide]

Here's a new twist:

I've got two sources telling me that you do not need a fuel management upgrade (Race tuner / Power commander) after making minor changes such as exhaust and air intake.

The thought here is that the stock electronic fuel manager will receive a signal from the O2 sensors and adjust the air fuel as is.
Further, I was told that until we get more fuel into the engine, that an aftermarket tuner is not necessary.
ie.... Clean up the casting imperfections and business end of those heads, a moderate cam, and maybe some minor valve work. So...

At this point I will look behind the air intake filter for any restrictions and go with upgrading the muffs, then dyno.

Sad part is, the local dyno I have used in the past had been sold and moved out of state. I know John with Rolling Thunder had a set up in Joplin, but that's about 7 hours away. Does anyone know a bike dyno closer to the Amarillo, Texas area? Someone you could trust...

Just my 2 cents and ..... Well you know the rest!

[bbrown]

Here's a new twist:

I've got two sources telling me that you do not need a fuel management upgrade (Race tuner / Power commander) after making minor changes such as exhaust and air intake.

The thought here is that the stock electronic fuel manager will receive a signal from the O2 sensors and adjust the air fuel as is.
Further, I was told that until we get more fuel into the engine, that an aftermarket tuner is not necessary.
ie.... Clean up the casting imperfections and business end of those heads, a moderate cam, and maybe some minor valve work. So...

At this point I will look behind the air intake filter for any restrictions and go with upgrading the muffs, then dyno.

Sad part is, the local dyno I have used in the past had been sold and moved out of state. I know John with Rolling Thunder had a set up in Joplin, but that's about 7 hours away. Does anyone know a bike dyno closer to the Amarillo, Texas area? Someone you could trust...

Just my 2 cents and ..... Well you know the rest!

Wow now that is interesting.   Anyone agree that a tuner is not needed?

I talked to Samson and the recommend it for the new 4 stage Calibers tru duals they are doing for the touring bikes

[grc]

The closed loop system on the latest models will "self tune" to the stock air/fuel ratios, at least at the engine speeds and throttle settings where the system goes into closed loop mode.  However, the stock 14.7:1 AFR is too lean to produce maximum power and best drivability even with the stock exhaust.  And what about those conditions where the system goes to open loop mode?  There is no "self tune" capability in open loop mode, the mixture is controlled strictly by the map in the ECM just like the older models.  My understanding is that the system goes to open loop when the throttle opening is over 50% and/or the rpms exceed roughly 4000.  It also runs in open loop mode when first started until the engine reaches normal operating temperature.

While you might be able to get by without a tuning device after a pipe and air cleaner change, in my opinion it would not be a very wise thing to do.  These engines need to be richened up some to control the high temperatures and improve drivability, even if you don't care about maximum power.  And without checking the AFR at wide open throttle after the modifications, you won't have any idea if you are running dangerously lean or not.

Jerry

[Iglide]

Thanks grc,

I have a gentleman I will pass your info on to and get back with the reply  :-) !

Don't shoot the messanger..... yet   maybe later

[Screamin]

The closed loop system on the latest models will "self tune" to the stock air/fuel ratios, at least at the engine speeds and throttle settings where the system goes into closed loop mode.  However, the stock 14.7:1 AFR is too lean to produce maximum power and best drivability even with the stock exhaust.  And what about those conditions where the system goes to open loop mode?  There is no "self tune" capability in open loop mode, the mixture is controlled strictly by the map in the ECM just like the older models.  My understanding is that the system goes to open loop when the throttle opening is over 50% and/or the rpms exceed roughly 4000.  It also runs in open loop mode when first started until the engine reaches normal operating temperature.

While you might be able to get by without a tuning device after a pipe and air cleaner change, in my opinion it would not be a very wise thing to do.  These engines need to be richened up some to control the high temperatures and improve drivability, even if you don't care about maximum power.  And without checking the AFR at wide open throttle after the modifications, you won't have any idea if you are running dangerously lean or not.

Jerry

This mirrors what the H. D. mechanic told me in Milwaukee. Due to the E.P.A., right out of the box these are too lean.

[MikeD]

The closed loop system on the latest models will "self tune" to the stock air/fuel ratios, at least at the engine speeds and throttle settings where the system goes into closed loop mode.  However, the stock 14.7:1 AFR is too lean to produce maximum power and best drivability even with the stock exhaust.  And what about those conditions where the system goes to open loop mode?  There is no "self tune" capability in open loop mode, the mixture is controlled strictly by the map in the ECM just like the older models.  My understanding is that the system goes to open loop when the throttle opening is over 50% and/or the rpms exceed roughly 4000.  It also runs in open loop mode when first started until the engine reaches normal operating temperature.

While you might be able to get by without a tuning device after a pipe and air cleaner change, in my opinion it would not be a very wise thing to do.  These engines need to be richened up some to control the high temperatures and improve drivability, even if you don't care about maximum power.  And without checking the AFR at wide open throttle after the modifications, you won't have any idea if you are running dangerously lean or not.

Jerry

Anyone translate this?

Jerry are you a mechanic or just really friggin smart!   You really read smart!  I'm serious and not a wise @ss!  When I created this post, I anticipated a response similar to: Rinehart, D and D, V and H, Tuner, Super Tuner, Fuel pack, etc.  I'm going to contact you with any upgrade concerns in the future if you dont mind.

MikeD

[Greaseball]

 grc, that pretty much sums it up.  In theory, these systems are capable of self tuning in closed loop mode.  Problem is, the base afr is way to lean to start with....hence the heat issues on these STOCK bikes.....things really get ugly after modifications when the bike goes into open loop mode.

But HD is so benevolent, they have a way to "help" us (and of course themselves financially) with the SERT or SUPER SERT...........oh, and don't forget that new Timken bearing kit for the crank........and new mufflers..........and the SE cam plate........and....get the picture??  Next time, I'm going to just order the frame and the fenders and build the rest myself!  LOL

[Iglide]

Great !

Well it's much needed info...

I'm getting the picture that SERT is needed for the bike stock ??

And WTF else ??

Your comments grc?

[bbrown]

Great !

Well it's much needed info...

I'm getting the picture that SERT is needed for the bike stock ??

And WTF else ??

Your comments grc?

I agree ....Now I am really confused???