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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: 11 CVO Convertible on February 15, 2013, 07:32:28 AM
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I purchased a used 2011 CVO Softail Convertible with 1,600 miles on it in October of 2012. I was expecting a lot more from the CVO's, so I was very disappointed in the performance. I put another 1,200 miles on the bike before getting fed up and tearing the motor apart. I'm keeping the stock bottom end and cylinders on this build as I'm only hoping to get one or two years out of it. My goal is 130/130+. Here is plan:
-Stock bottom end
-Stock cylinders
-Compression set at 11.0:1
-SE 10.5:1 pistons
-Swain Tech Gold Coat on pistons
-Cometic .027" headgaskets
-Hillside Stage III CVO heads w/ 2.120" valves
-Mill and set combustion chambers at 94cc's
-Swain Tech thermal barrier coatings on combustion chamber, valve faces, and exhaust ports
-Swain Tech flow coat on intake port
-Swain Tech PPM low friction coating on valve stems
-Woods 188 valve springs, retainers, keepers
-Woods TW-9F-6 cams
-Woods lifters
-Zippers tensioners
-S&S pushrods
-S&S roller rocker arms
-S&S 58mm Throttle Hog throttle body
-AIM lockup clutch w/ Barnett spring
-Bud's oil cooler
-TTS Master Tune (will be tuned Ed at The Dyno Difference)
-RB Racing Pro Stock Spyder exhaust w/ 2" Primaries
The bike is tore down all parts are in the mail to get reworked. I'm just sharing my build and progression for those that would like to see the results.
Here is the disassemble:
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130210_101241.jpg)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130210_101248.jpg)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130210_105136.jpg)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130210_105143.jpg)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130210_105158.jpg)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130210_122648.jpg)
Cylinders torqued down and checking for compression/deck height with new pistons:
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130210_143503.jpg)
Videos of the bike stock with the RB pipe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2aRWzV-0AY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2vjK4JxS9E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXl8GoP9RZk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg9BYBB6h50
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Could you measure the dome on that piston for me? Need to know in .ooo not in cc,,thanks
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sounds like a nice build ...ques tho the 1 to 2 years ? plan what are you doing afterwards ?
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why not just go 124" now and be done with it??
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Sure, you betcha or a HD 120r kit and your case and heads. Actually the 110 barrels will bore to 4.060 and that would save a case bore and barrels. Suburban HD in Wisconsin does this all the time and sells a 113" stock stroke piston at 4.060". Buy a crank and pistons and go to 120". If the extra 4" are wanted then bore the cases and use an S&S kit. The side benefit of the 120 or 124" are flat top pistons become viable with later closing cams.
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We've bored those to 113" on about 1/2 dozen different occasions, as well. :)
Scott
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There is an advantage to the S&S or HD Bigger bore cylinders however, the longer spigot for support and piston stability.
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One example is that we had a local client come in 2 weeks before Sturgis last summer, with a lifter and cams that created a debris-field in the cam chest, harming the pump/plate, etc,(local dealership said the noise was "normal" for those!!) and the crank was fubared as well.
Even with the crank going to Darkhorse, he went to Sturgis on time, with his now, 113"er, and logged over 8,000 miles on it prior to putting it up for the winter, last fall.
Like Phil Robertson says, he is "Happy, Happy, Happy". :2vrolijk_21:
Scott
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Have you told Ed about the plan ?
Sounds like a Noisey PMS build and I would almost bet he would agree
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What??????????
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Looks real nice
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Could you measure the dome on that piston for me? Need to know in .ooo not in cc,,thanks
I will when I get them back. I had to order a new deck bridge for my dial indicator. I couldn't accurately measure down to the thousandth, but I got close. For some reason, the rear piston was about .003-.004 lower that the front.
sounds like a nice build ...ques tho the 1 to 2 years ? plan what are you doing afterwards ?
124" build assuming I still want to keep the bike. I plan to buy a Street Glide in the next year or two, so these parts will go on the SG and I'll do a 150/150+ monster that runs on E85.
why not just go 124" now and be done with it??
I don't have all my tools. I started a new job last summer, and I sold my house and put all my tools in storage. Once I get a new house bought and get a shop/garage, I'll tackle the full build. I also didn't want to have to go chain drive yet. I didn't want to loose the rear belt sprocket that matches the rim. Once I get my stuff out of storage, I plan use my CNC mill to modify the rear belt sprocket to accept a bolt on chain sprocket.
Have you told Ed about the plan ?
Sounds like a Noisey PMS build and I would almost bet he would agree
I spoke with him Friday about it. He made no mention on any potential issues other than making sure I had my squish set at .030-.035 and getting some matched Marren 5.3 injectors.
Looks real nice
Thanks!
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Just to be clear, I just need to know the height of the piston dome from the flat part of piston to top of dome, not the deck height.
Just cant remember what mine were, and no one has one I can measure, thanks a bunch if you can do that for me.
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Just to be clear, I just need to know the height of the piston dome from the flat part of piston to top of dome, not the deck height.
Just cant remember what mine were, and no one has one I can measure, thanks a bunch if you can do that for me.
.175" from quench area on piston to top of thr pop up.
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Thanks so much for checking that for me. That will change my cam decision.
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Today I stripped the power coating off my Oil Bud oil cooler. The power coating was easily removed with aircraft remover. It will be going to Swain Tech to get their BBE heat radiating coating to help take some addition heat out of the motor.
Also, after talking with Scott we decided up up the compression to 11.2:1 to get every last bit out of this build. In addition, I decided to add a little gearing and ordered an Evolution Industries 49 tooth billet clutch basket. With this addition, I'm sure there is no way I won't be happy with the performance of this build.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130317_181420.jpg)
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thanks for keeping us in the loop .... sounds like its going well :)
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All my parts came back from Hillside week before last. Scott said the heads ended up flowing 315 cfm with the Swain Tech flow coat in the intake. He said it picked up around 6 cfm vs. the uncoated ports.
I finally cleared my weekend to start the assembly, and ran into some snags. The gasket that was used to mask the cylinder head was for a 4.125" bore bike as the OD of the ceramic coating measured 4.155". The heads went back to Hillside to re-mill them to remove the ceramic coating from gasket and quench area.
I did remove the original cam bearing and installed the new bearings. The eBay puller/installer I purchased worked okay once I modified the collet. I had to cut the slots in the collet about 3/8" deeper so it would flex properly. After that, it worked okay for the once in a blue moon installs that I will do. I also used the lifter block alignment studs for Evo's to align the oil pump before I tightened the nuts down.
The Zippers dual piston chain tensioners were used to button up the cam install.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_081005.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_081005.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_081250.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_081250.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_132039.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_132039.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_132846.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_132846.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_134656.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_134656.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130525_222059.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130525_222059.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130503_204909.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130503_204909.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_150509.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_150509.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_150605.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_150605.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_150614.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_150614.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_150621.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_150621.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_145423.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_145423.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_152512.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_152512.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_153437.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_153437.jpg.html)
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Below is the S&S 58mm Throttle Hog throttle body compared with the stock 50mm. It was designed for use with 1.800" intake ports as well. The biggest advantage I see is that the S&S has a much bigger intake plentum volume and the volume comes from the bottom of the intake. With ports shaped like the Harley's, the most flow potential will come from the bottom of the intake. Nicely done S&S!!!
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130504_160338.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130504_160338.jpg.html)
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wow this is really good stuff here .... I have a ques what are the benefits of the ceramic coating of the heads besides better flow.
does it reduce carbon build up ?
also the difference of the 6cfm air flow is that a lot where you can tell on the butt dyno ?
again thanks for posting the pics and info
Lever
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Ceramic coatings are not for better flow. They are for insulation. I'm trying to keep the heat in the combustion chamber, out of the piston, out of the exhaust port, out of the head, and ultimately out of the oil. I did have the intake ports coated in a product called flow coat. It is a very slick coating that was designed to improve flow. I also had my pistons coated with the 'Gold Coat' on the top and my oil cooler coated with a heat emitting coating. Bottom line, the coating should help manage heat and I feel this is critical in a air cooled motor.
Below are pictures of my pistons with Swain Tech ceramic Gold Thermal Barrier Coat.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130505_091148.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130505_091148.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130505_091159.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130505_091159.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130505_091220.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130505_091220.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130505_091238.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130505_091238.jpg.html)
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IMO if you bust through 130 on an honest dyno you have a winner. I have seen similar builds go there with no coatings and lesser TB.
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IMO if you bust through 130 on an honest dyno you have a winner. I have seen similar builds go there with no coatings and lesser TB.
True. Plus I'm not going to get hung up on dyno numbers because there are no two dynos that read the same. That's a goal because it would be cool to brag, but ultimately it's all about how it rips when the throttle gets twisted! :2vrolijk_21:
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Real nice bike. Deffinately going to be a go getter
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My Oil Bud oil cooler cam back from Swain Tech with their Black Body Emitting coating. It's very thin almost like an anodizing and it has a semi-gloss appearance. I easily see how it is better than a thick power coating.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130510_213148.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130510_213148.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130510_213205.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130510_213205.jpg.html)
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The heads made it back this week. I spent all day yesterday double checking all measurements. Since I knew the ACR's only open .020", I removed the additional shim that was added to ensure the chambers would be as small as possible. I cc'd the heads (about 5 times) and was disappointed in what I found. The front head is 94.5cc's and the rear head is at 94cc's. I asked to the heads to be at 93cc's for the 11.0:1 and Scott said he would bump that to 11.2:1, so I was expecting to find sub 93cc chambers. Just to make sure I wasn't missing anything, I went back and made a mold of the piston crown. I cut off the valve reliefs and cc'd the mold. I cc'd the reliefs on the piston and subtracted the two. Again, I found my self disappointed as the total cc's on the piston dome volume as they were only 10.5 cc's instead of the 11.5 that I read on the board. After that, I checked my deck height of the pistons. I found the rear sitting in the hole .0065" and the front in the hole .0035". The top of the piston above the ring land measured 3.968" and it was .172" to the top of the ring land. Lastly, my .027" Cometic gasket had a bore of 4.034". When you factor all that together, my compression is as follows:
Front Cylinder Static - 10.91:1
Front Cylinder Dynamic - 9.45:1 (calculated @ .053" lift....so not true dynamic compression)
Rear Cylinder Static - 10.89:1
Rear Cylinder Dynamic - 9.44:1 (calculated @ .053" lift....so not true dynamic compression)
I was wanting the compression up there at 11.2:1 (about 9.65-9.7 dynamic compression), so now I'm left with a decision. I can throw everything together, have the heads milled more to get the chambers where they need to be, or buy a -4 degree cam gear to get my dynamic compression back to the 9.65:1 that I had planned the build for.
Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on which direction they would recommend?
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Some pics of yesterdays work:
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130525_145339.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130525_145339.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130525_155450.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130525_155450.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130526_090329.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130526_090329.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130526_090432.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130526_090432.jpg.html)
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Consider shaving the front barrel .003 and the front head .009 rear head .003, YMMV to get the heads to match at 93cc.
After all the detailed work you have done no sense in shortcuts. You will be at ~11.15:1 after the work is completed.
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I know you're right...I was just hoping that someone would tell me that the -4 cam gear wouldn't affect the power that much.
So, I think the plan is to take off .010" off the rear cylinder and .007" off the front cylinder. That will put the slugs .0035" above the deck surface and put the quench at .0235" when cold. I'm guessing that will translate to somewhere around .035" quench when warm. I'll also have the heads milled (again...time #3) and chambers set to 93.5cc. Based on my calcs, that will put the compression at 11.18:1.
Now, just to try and find a good local machine shop that I trust....
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Several things...........
I've cc'd many sets of 110" domed pistons like you show in your pics. They ALL have come in at 11 cc.
Also, if you're checking your deck height beyond the valve pocket area(your bottom pic), there's more room for error :oops: than over each end of the wrist pin.
John
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Several things...........
I've cc'd many sets of 110" domed pistons like you show in your pics. They ALL have come in at 11 cc.
Also, if you're checking your deck height beyond the valve pocket area(your bottom pic), there's more room for error :oops: than over each end of the wrist pin.
John
Thanks for the incite! I'll error on the side of caution and calculate my compression based on your 11cc's. You appear to have a more high tech method for cc'ing pistons than I do. I measured my deck height at the wrist pin.
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Collin,
We too, have cc'd those pistons, and they've also come in at 11cc's, as John has already made mention of.
Looks like you are coming along real good!! :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Scott
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At what point do I need to worry about piston to valve clearance from milling heads, decking cylinders, and thin head gaskets? I'm not worried about the valves hitting the bottom of thr relief, but rather the valve hitting the backside of the relief at the outer part of the piston as the piston keeps moving up due to the machine work.
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You should have PLENTY of room as that cam has a relatively low TDC for what it is, but in order to double-check, a little clay will tell the story.
Scott
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I spoke with Mike Lozano from Lozano Brothers Porting today. He said he would be able to get the heads and cylinders in and out in a couple days. I plan to drop them off on Saturday. I'm torn with how much to take off the cylinders for fear of having piston to valve issues with the non-relieved part of the piston. For every .010" that is shaved of the head and deck of the cylinders, the valves gets ~.005" closer to the back of the unrelieved area (assuming an approximate 30° valve angle).
I think I'm going for broke and shooting for .022" cold quench (pistons up .005") and a chamber volume of 93.5. That should put me a little over 11.25:1.
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The heads and cylinders were dropped off to be machined. I've had several days now with nothing to do, so I've been researching compression ratios that others are using successfully without detonation. On harleytechtalk.org, there are SEVERAL builds with cranking compression well over 220 psi. Most all the bikes are heavier touring bikes, and all say that there is not issue with detonation even in heat on extended trips. I'm willing to gamble a little here, so now I'm thinking bumping up the squeeze to 11.5:1 and running really tight quench to help mitigate detonation. That would mean running my quench at .020" with the pistons .007" out of the hole and setting the chambers at 92 cc's. This would put my cranking compression at 210.7 psi. The bike stock was around 205 psi, so I'm really not pushing it too much more (in my mind).
Any thoughts???
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Might be a tick too much in that Texas heat.
Scott
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I got the heads and cylinders back from Lozano Brothers yesterday. I ended up setting the pistons at 0 deck height and the chambers at 92cc's. This should yield 11.33:1 compression with a quench of .027". When I was at Lozano Brothers, I spent about an hour talking with Mike as he showed my around their place. Extremely knowledgeable guy (that's a gross understatement) with both cars and motorcycles. He also does tuning, so I'll be taking my bike to him to tune instead of hauling it all the way to Dallas.
I started today looking at the heads and noticed that I could see light at the valve seat. I took them apart only to see that the intake valves only seal when oriented one way and the exhaust valves appeared to have the ceramic coating on the seat. I lapped all the valves until they sealed tight and put them back together.
The primary got the new Evolution Industries 49 tooth billet clutch basket installed. To make this work with out noise, I cut the rear part of the tensioner off as instructed on Evolution's website. I also installed the Barnett clutch spring and the AIM lockup clutch hat. I'm lacking oil, but I plan to run Mobil 1 ATF in the primary.
The engine went together pretty smooth after the valves were lapped. Prior to putting on the S&S Throttle Hog, I took some pictures to show the plenum difference between the 50mm stocker and the Throttle Hog. The rocker arm supports breather oil return holes (under the umbrella valve and sponge) were drilled out to a #38 (.1015") to help with oil control/vapors since I'll be keeping her wound up more. In the picture below, only the bottom hole was drilled for comparison.
I finished the night by getting the rear cylinder's pushrods adjusted and the Wood lifter preloaded .125". I'll hop on the front cylinder tomorrow and degree the cams to see where there were ground.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130608_144235.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130608_144235.jpg.html)
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looks great ..... want to give you some info that I had to do on my bike .... had to buy a spacer that goes between the primary cover and primary it self also had to grind out some metal area to allow the weights on the lock up to have room to work
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Once again a very detailed good job, good choices and parts that should play well assuming the pipe is there.
This statement is a red flag IMO
"I took them apart only to see that the intake valves only seal when oriented one way"
No a fan of lapping to fix a concentric issue which is what you are describing. Pretty far along now to go back.
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Once again a very detailed good job, good choices and parts that should play well assuming the pipe is there.
This statement is a red flag IMO
"I took them apart only to see that the intake valves only seal when oriented one way"
No a fan of lapping to fix a concentric issue which is what you are describing. Pretty far along now to go back.
Very true and I wasn't happy about it having to do it. I have to believe that Scott had everything right before they went to Swain. I think the heat added in the process might have warped some surfaces or it was just the coating that wasn't even on the valve seat. I couldn't pull the valve all the way out to see what was going on as I didn't want to damage the valve seals. Lesson learned....if the coatings are worth doing again (and I'm not convinced just do to the issues they have caused already) the valve job needs to be done after.
Plus, if this motor doesn't make the power I want or starts having issues, it will give me a good reason to start on the next motor faster. As nice set of B2 or Hurricane heads worked over by Lozano Brothers mated to a 117".... :2vrolijk_21:
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looks great ..... want to give you some info that I had to do on my bike .... had to buy a spacer that goes between the primary cover and primary it self also had to grind out some metal area to allow the weights on the lock up to have room to work
AIM claims theirs will work with the stock derby cover....that's why I went with theirs and not some others I found. Hopefully that is true. I'll keep you posted.
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Lesson learned....if the coatings are worth doing again (and I'm not convinced just do to the issues they have caused already) the valve job needs to be done after.
There you go, I agree
If it doesn't make power just fix the valves and seats and I betcha it will haul ass.
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I got everything finished up today. I installed the Oil Bud oil cooler. Hopefully will keep some of the heat out of the oil. I turned over the motor a few times with the rear wheel by hand. After that, I cranked it over several times. Everything sounds good, so I'm ready to get this running and tuned.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130609_124222.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130609_124222.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130609_124218.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130609_124218.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130609_152319.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130609_152319.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130609_152304.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130609_152304.jpg.html)
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Looking good Collin. :2vrolijk_21:
Scott
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looks great
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Not surprised by the findings of imperfect fitment after the coating is added, but I don't quite understand why it was a problem. Swain prefers to get the heads un-assembled and without a valve job done so they can put the coating on which is about .002 thick, they then tell you to do the valve job and lap the valves. If you do not do it this way and send them the heads and they do the coatings its SOP to pull the valves and lap them for fitment. In either case there is a procedure to follow. The real question is whether there was a concentric issue prior to having the coatings done, won't know now cause they have been lapped. Other question is why not go back to the original porter vs sending them Lozano brothers?
Bike looks great, have been interested in the buds cooling system, but haven't seen a lot of reports on them with worked engines, looking forward to your reports on the motor/build and the accessories you have added.
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Other question is why not go back to the original porter vs sending them Lozano
I originally wanted to use a local porter, but I didn't find anyone that I thought as reputable. Also, Scott is a great guy and does good work. I have realized that any future builds I will want to put greater attention to detail, and I think Lazano Brothers can deliver what I will be looking for jn the future. It does come with a very healthy price tag though.
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So, I couldn't get this fired up. I found out that the S&S rocker arms needed the rocker box covers clearanced, and I didn't do that. I checked the compression and I had about ~20 psi. I took off the rocker arm covers off, and the rear cylinder had 210 ccp. I ground the covers down, so hopefully tomorrow I will get it fired up.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130615_175603.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130615_175603.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130615_175551.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130615_175551.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130615_175544.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130615_175544.jpg.html)
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She's running! I also put a set of Lyndall Gold pads on to help stop her when I get her on the road.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jT4rCJ27xk
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130616_112433.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130616_112433.jpg.html)
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I'll bet it has a healthy exhaust note!
Scott
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This morning the bike was on the dyno. Mike quickly realized that the bike had TONS of detonation everywhere. At 20-30% throttle @ 3,000 rpm, 15+ degrees of timing in the table and the ECM was still was pulling timing. Mike didn't think it was the compression that caused the detonation. The motor is coming back apart and I'm going to remove the ceramic coatings. The bike also wouldn't make power (partially because timing, partially because of running lean), however, Mike thinks it is partially because the flow coating won't let the fuel droplets bend the way it needs to around the short side radius of the port (this is what LBP found back in the 70/80's when the teflon coating first came out). After the coatings are removed, Lozano Brothers will be flowing the heads, and seeing if a bigger valve can be put in the heads without re-doing the valves seats. If this is the biggest valve on the stock seat, they will be cleaning the ports up and putting a new valve job in it. Mike said on his dyno, if a Softail breaks 120 on the dyno, it's a ripper. Today, with a VERY rough tune, AFR's around 14.5 up top and 15+ degrees of timing pulled, the bike made 101 hp.
Well...I just learned one way that doesn't work. Just want to share the progress.
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Without sounding disrespectful I am not surprised. My limited experience with coating has been positive when trying to add an anti-wear barrier. Other attempts with heat retention or barriers has flopped. Same identical results as yours.
I don't blame the barriers I just think the mechanical compression needs to be lowered when the barriers are used. I never went that far and just bagged the experiment similar to what you are doing. Consider the car world and the mechanical compression used with cast iron heads VS aluminum. Same scenario.
As far as piston coatings, anti-wear on the skirts. Consider that a get out of jail free once card. Get the motor too hot, a little buffer before it folds. Modern cam and barrel ground skirts have an oil retention finish that does a good job of protecting the skirts when the clearance is right (bored to exact size specified by manufacturer).
All of these are just my opinions and based on limited experience on the particular topic.
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This morning the bike was on the dyno. Mike quickly realized that the bike had TONS of detonation everywhere. At 20-30% throttle @ 3,000 rpm, 15+ degrees of timing in the table and the ECM was still was pulling timing. Mike didn't think it was the compression that caused the detonation. The motor is coming back apart and I'm going to remove the ceramic coatings. The bike also wouldn't make power (partially because timing, partially because of running lean), however, Mike thinks it is partially because the flow coating won't let the fuel droplets bend the way it needs to around the short side radius of the port (this is what LBP found back in the 70/80's when the teflon coating first came out). After the coatings are removed, Lozano Brothers will be flowing the heads, and seeing if a bigger valve can be put in the heads without re-doing the valves seats. If this is the biggest valve on the stock seat, they will be cleaning the ports up and putting a new valve job in it. Mike said on his dyno, if a Softail breaks 120 on the dyno, it's a ripper. Today, with a VERY rough tune, AFR's around 14.5 up top and 15+ degrees of timing pulled, the bike made 101 hp.
Well...I just learned one way that doesn't work. Just want to share the progress.
Thanks for the update sorry its such a painful process. I wish it wasn't so expensive and time consumptive to remove the coating and retry the heads before reworking them to rule out the coating as many shops and race teams and such are now using the coatings. At least then you would know what to blame the issues on and what not to. Coating or not wouldn't be the first heads that have these issues either. Hopefully LB will help get you going.
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I don't blame the barriers I just think the mechanical compression needs to be lowered when the barriers are used.
Yeah, Mike said about the same thing. He said there might be merit in the ceramic coatings to help with power by keeping the heat in, but with high compression motors, they need to get rid of the heat.
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This is a thread which contains some factual, first hand experience, and vendor commentary.
Pay particular attention to post 11 on page 3 by a fella named Darin Morgan
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1050&start=30 (http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1050&start=30)
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Darin Morgan says that coating do work and they use them. So I just picked a bad vendor to do the coatings and Polydyn has a better ceramic coating?
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I don't know if Polydyne is the answer and Swain is not. One customer of mine made good power with a 107 that had all the Swain coatings just like yours. 124/120 with reasonable compression and a perfect tune.
An endorsement from Darin Morgan is one I would take with confidence. He is a true experienced professional. That said he is basically saying the same thing the dry film lubricants are beneficial and the ceramic piston coating may be beneficial but minimal. Plus his area of expertise and the context is high end water cooled V8s.
I am not sure throwing the baby out with the bath water is necessary. Just get the CR down a little, work with a tuner that can optimize your combination. The Delphi does an erratic hack and slash of timing and sometimes falsely. This can amount to momentary 12-15°+ in timing pulled then back to normal. There is no chance to make power when that is going on. So for testing purposes you can have the tuner toggle off Ion Sensing and then work the timing tables. Another trick is to limit the amount the Delphi can pull like 2 or 3 degrees and leave the ion sensing on.
On Polydynes page they suggest "less timing, more fuel". Personally I have limited experience and I would call Swain or Polydyne for more information. I know Swain does have quite a bit of HD experience as they are right in the same neighborhood as Dan Baisley, another very sharp man.
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If you eliminate the coating that leaves you with the heads :nixweiss: If it is the heads, hope there is enough there for the Lozano Brothers to correct the heads if that turns out to be the case.
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Before I tore the motor down, I did a compression check. The rear cylinder had 215 psi and the front had 115 psi. I took off the exhaust and cranked the motor. You could hear and feel the air bypassing the exhaust valve on the compression stroke. I guess the front exhaust valve never was seated properly. Most likely, the coatings screwed me again.
Either way, the heads, cylinders and pistons are in good hands.
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Coatings didnt screw you, getting the right directions bit you. water under the bridge at this point though
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I don't know if Polydyne is the answer and Swain is not. One customer of mine made good power with a 107 that had all the Swain coatings just like yours. 124/120 with reasonable compression and a perfect tune.
An endorsement from Darin Morgan is one I would take with confidence. He is a true experienced professional. That said he is basically saying the same thing the dry film lubricants are beneficial and the ceramic piston coating may be beneficial but minimal. Plus his area of expertise and the context is high end water cooled V8s.
I am not sure throwing the baby out with the bath water is necessary. Just get the CR down a little, work with a tuner that can optimize your combination. The Delphi does an erratic hack and slash of timing and sometimes falsely. This can amount to momentary 12-15°+ in timing pulled then back to normal. There is no chance to make power when that is going on. So for testing purposes you can have the tuner toggle off Ion Sensing and then work the timing tables. Another trick is to limit the amount the Delphi can pull like 2 or 3 degrees and leave the ion sensing on.
On Polydynes page they suggest "less timing, more fuel". Personally I have limited experience and I would call Swain or Polydyne for more information. I know Swain does have quite a bit of HD experience as they are right in the same neighborhood as Dan Baisley, another very sharp man.
15 degrees of timing was pulled out of the base table at 3,000 rpm and 50-70 kpa. It was still knocking and trying to pull 5-10+ degrees out. The ion-sensing was turned off, and it didn't knock loud like classic detonation, however, it did have some extra vibration that could be felt in the bars. Mike was pretty sure it was detonation.
I might call Swain tomorrow, but it will be tough for me to not remove the coatings.
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Before I tore the motor down, I did a compression check. The rear cylinder had 215 psi and the front had 115 psi. I took off the exhaust and cranked the motor. You could hear and feel the air bypassing the exhaust valve on the compression stroke. I guess the rear valve never seated properly. Most likely, the coatings screwed me again.
Either way, the heads, cylinders and pistons are in good hands.
I have to agree with Unbalanced. I think some procedure issues might have screwed you rather than the actual coatings. Coatings, properly applied are commonplace today in many types of motors.
And I absolutely agree your pieces are now in good hands. The Lozano Brothers are long established with a fantastic track record. We used some of there road racing motors back in the mid 80's with great success!
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I think some procedure issues might have screwed you rather than the actual coatings.
I was trying not to point fingers at the head porter/builder. That just happens to be the same person that sent the gaskets to Swain Tech for a 4.125" bore, but won't admit it and blames Swain Tech on switching the gaskets.
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Well the compression test turns the tables for sure.
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I was trying not to point fingers at the head porter/builder. That just happens to be the same person that sent the gaskets to Swain Tech for a 4.125" bore, but won't admit it and blames Swain Tech on switching the gaskets.
Me neither... Just pointing out that coatings, properly applied and properly utilized, are common and typically used successfully... :2vrolijk_21:
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I agree and have found it interesting studying the topic of coatings which included a talk with CP engineering.
It is too easy for a topic to carry way too much weight when they are discussed in this fashion. And sometimes become a red herring off the root cause of the problem.
Truly the coating thing, for example, is so far down the list of majors.
Well the good news is this build now has a path and should make good power when squared away. Good luck with it.
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I was trying not to point fingers at the head porter/builder. That just happens to be the same person that sent the gaskets to Swain Tech for a 4.125" bore, but won't admit it and blames Swain Tech on switching the gaskets.
Collin,
I beg your pardon, but I PERSONALLY, sent 4" bore Cometic gaskets in the Fed-Ex parcel when they were shipped to Swain Technologies, which they DID NOT return to us upon recieving them back from them.
Also noticed the stains on your granite heads once they were recieved from them as well.
Used Swain 3 times now, and never had issues with them.
Scott
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Have tuned engines with coatings one both pistons and chambers along with ex port. If you get a false signal its only going to show up on the data log, if you can hear it well then you have other issues. As far as valves not sealing a coating really would not create that. Even if it was extremely think at one point the valve would go through it like butter. Its not a anti wear coating( say .0015-.002) its very thin, on a area like a valve and seat the contact point would clean itself in extremely short order. Like a few raps with a rubber mallet or your palm. Those guys are very sharp, Mike will tell you what is going on and how what he needs to correct the issue.
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I talked to Swain Tech today and they recommended leaning out the tune and adding timing....I think I'll pass on even atempting to run the motor that lean or with more timing.
Also, the front piston/cylinder has some light scoring. For a motor that had 10-15 mike on it, I'm not very comfortable. I ordered a set of 20* Axtel .010" pistons. Those will be sent to LBP so my cylinders can be bored and the heads given the treatment to match. Hopefully in 3 weeks I'll be back on the dyno.
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Wow, this is really turning into a mess. Sorry your having to go through all this, I'm sure it'll be right when you get it back.
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I need some opinions here. I got re-looking at the pistons, and want to see if anyone has any ideas as to what caused this. To me it looks like the pistons got really hot below the oil control rings. My first though was an oil issue, but the rings have a nice coating of oil and slide smoothly in the ring lands. I want to make sure there are not other issues going on before the bike goes back together. Anyone seen this before?
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130627_061248.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130627_061248.jpg.html)
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(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130627_061211.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130627_061211.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130627_061200.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130627_061200.jpg.html)
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(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130627_061248-1.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130627_061248-1.jpg.html)
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Is this discoloration on both or only 1 piston. Do both ides of this piston skirt apear the same?
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Yes, both pistons are the same and it seems to be even on the adjecent sides. I also noticed that most of the moly seems be be missing off thr top compression ring in the are that is outside of the ring land. I will try to take pictures of this later.
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Anytime you have oil that is burnt and gold in color there is extreme heat , the underside area of the dome is most likely caused by too much heat on the face of the piston. Hard to tell but the face of the top rings has a odd look to it almost like it was trying to stick .. It may just be the flash or photo angle as the second ring does not look that way.
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Piston oilers installed and functioning?
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Heat.
I will also add, that at on time we had a clients bike in here converting it from an 80" Evo to it's current 96" configuration, and that he had used Castrol GTX 20W50 from almost day 1.
The entire of the engine had a dark brown stain throughout.
Did not witness any harm, only the discoloration. :nixweiss:
Scott
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Extreme heat from the detonation is my guess and probably why the molly is gone from the top ring. I think the pistons are fine but I would replace the rings as you will be starting out with fatigued rings.
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Please state your piston to wall clearance and ring end gap clearance.
Sadunbar mentioned oilers, I agree they should be tested or just replaced.
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This engine has no miles on it from what I understand it brand new.. A oiler that is not working can cause an issue however I do not believe that they are truly needed at all. Its an added feature, it helps cool the piston but there are so many other engines out there that never had them and they run just fine.
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When they are blocked the piston bottoms get tarnished. The need for oilers I will let others discuss.
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Fair enough.. ;D
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When they are blocked the piston bottoms get tarnished. The need for oilers I will let others discuss.
:2vrolijk_21:
The purpose of oilers is to cool the bottom of the piston. When they become blocked, the piston bottoms become tarnished, as Deweysheads stated. I doubt the cost conscious MOCO bean counters would approve of the cost of the oilers and associated machining if there was no perceived engineering need for them... :nixweiss:
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I think it was more of a EPA deal with the ultra lean afr advanced timing and then the need for a oiler was made known.. I had a S&S engine that was brought to me for a rebuild , at some point someone had used RTV to seal up the oilers and they sealed up the feed as well.. Looked like they used the old GMS that stuff is tenacious. But my point being is that the engine had no pistons issues at all, just was a leaking oil. But anyways I think we all will find out very soon what really went on.
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Please state your piston to wall clearance and ring end gap clearance.
Sadunbar mentioned oilers, I agree they should be tested or just replaced.
I don't know. The pistons and cylinders were sent to Hillside to be set at the proper gap and clearance. I didn't double check the work. I will call and request the cylinder bores be measured before they get bored. If the stock pistons are cast (and i don't know), and the clearances were not opened enough for the forged piston's extra expansion, that would explain the cylinder wall and piston skirt scuffing. That could also have been the reason the heat was building to cause detonation and not the coatings.
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Stock pistons are 4032 alloy forged. If the cylinder is bored to true 4" the clearance is built into the piston. The coatings on the skirt can add material and change the sizing requirement. The coating firm dictates the changes, if any. While looking at everything I woud certainly be looking for rings butting and proper clearance plus concentric bores.
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here is some info in regarding forged and cast pistons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYETyNxv8gk
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Stock pistons are 4032 alloy forged. If the cylinder is bored to true 4" the clearance is built into the piston. The coatings on the skirt can add material and change the sizing requirement. The coating firm dictates the changes, if any. While looking at everything I woud certainly be looking for rings butting and proper clearance plus concentric bores.
Then the clearances were fine. I check the end of the rings, but I didn't see anything except where they were filed. It just sounds like extreme detonation caused a lot of extra heat in the pistons.
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I got the heads and cylinders back from Lozano Brothers. I had to check the deck height, piston to valve clearance, and the squish. The deck height was dead on at .000" for both front and rear pistons. The piston to valve clearance (checked at TDC measured from the valve on seat to piston contact) was .380" on the intakes and .408" on the exhaust. This puts me at .160" TDC clearance on intakes and .207" on the exhaust. The squish was .033" measured with the clay thickness after it was squished. All this was measured with the old .027" compressed head gasket. Now everything has to go back to LBP for final head work to set the compression (right now the chambers are 98cc's). The cylinders were bored .010" for the Axtel 20° pistons. LBP said that the existing cylinders had a horrible bore/hone on them. They said it was way too coarse and was full of high and low spots. The new bore and hone on the cylinders are like a work of art. I've never had an engine with this nice of a hone.
Mike said that Hillside did a good jobs with the heads and all they did was remove the coatings....all the coatings. The valves remained the original size that Hillside installed. After LBP cut the 20° on the heads and slightly opened up the chambers to match, the heads flowed 326 cfm on their bench. The low friction coatings were removed from the valve stems and they were concentric again. Bottom line, it sounds like the coatings screwed everything up.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_125152.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_125152.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_115500.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_115500.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_114908.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_114908.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_124445.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_124445.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_124632.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_124632.jpg.html)
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I got the heads and cylinders back from Lozano Brothers. I had to check the deck height, piston to valve clearance, and the squish. The deck height was dead on at .000" for both front and rear pistons. The piston to valve clearance (checked at TDC measured from the valve on seat to piston contact) was .380" on the intakes and .408" on the exhaust. This puts me at .160" TDC clearance on intakes and .207" on the exhaust. The squish was .033" measured with the clay thickness after it was squished. All this was measured with the old .027" compressed head gasket. Now everything has to go back to LBP for final head work to set the compression (right now the chambers are 98cc's). The cylinders were bored .010" for the Axtel 20° pistons. LBP said that the existing cylinders had a horrible bore/hone on them. They said it was way too coarse and was full of high and low spots. The new bore and hone on the cylinders are like a work of art. I've never had an engine with this nice of a hone.
Mike said that Hillside did a good jobs with the heads and all they did was remove the coatings....all the coatings. The valves remained the original size that Hillside installed. After LBP cut the 20° on the heads and slightly opened up the chambers to match, the heads flowed 326 cfm on their bench. The low friction coatings were removed from the valve stems and they were concentric again. Bottom line, it sounds like the coatings screwed everything up.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_125152.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_125152.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_115500.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_115500.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_114908.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_114908.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_124445.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_124445.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130727_124632.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130727_124632.jpg.html)
did you measure squish on both sides of the wrist pins, I see you showed one side?
Were the original cylinders bored prior to putting in the build pistons? You stated the cylinders were rough full of high / low spots. If so, who did those and is per LSB is the heat to blame for the lows/high spots or is that a workmanship issue?
You stated the heads flowed 326 cfm at what lift .700?
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did you measure squish on both sides of the wrist pins, I see you showed one side?
Were the original cylinders bored prior to putting in the build pistons? You stated the cylinders were rough full of high / low spots. If so, who did those and is per LSB is the heat to blame for the lows/high spots or is that a workmanship issue?
You stated the heads flowed 326 cfm at what lift .700?
I did measure on both sides of the wrist pin. No, the cylinders were the original bore with only 2,600 miles. Hillside honed them to freshen them up. LBP noticed when I took the cylinders the first time to get decked that the cylinders didn't look so hot, but didn't say anything since I didn't bring them there for that. Mike says that stock Harley cylinders are horrible in stock form. I don't get hung up on flow bench numbers, so I didn't even bother asking at what lift. I'm sure it was either .650" or .700".
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Also, some feedback on the Axtel 20° domed pistons....The pistons would be good for a 10.5:1 build as the domes are only 14cc's per Axtel (LBP measured 13.2cc's). They have a huge dish in the center that reduces the volume, but also reduced the piston weight. They don't have any anti-friction coating on the skirts. The piston pins appear longer and heavier versus the stock and SE pistons. Lastly, and unfortunately, they use the thicker rings (1/16" vs. 1.5mm). They are made by JE and all and all appear to be a quality piston.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130728_165036.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130728_165036.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130728_165108.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130728_165108.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130728_165118.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130728_165118.jpg.html)
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did you measure squish on both sides of the wrist pins, I see you showed one side?
Were the original cylinders bored prior to putting in the build pistons? You stated the cylinders were rough full of high / low spots. If so, who did those and is per LSB is the heat to blame for the lows/high spots or is that a workmanship issue?
You stated the heads flowed 326 cfm at what lift .700?
Those were flow tested/checked to .700" valve lift, Harold, to insure that they continue to run past the cams peak lift, and as far as high/low spots, they were round/straight, and again, were checked with a calibrated Mititoyo dial bore guage.
Hope that answers your ongoing questions, Harold.
Scott
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I'm still waiting on getting the heads back from Lozano Brothers, but I did get some additional parts in today. I decided to purchase the Hayden primary chain tensioner. I wasn't happy with how tight the primary chain was when I took the cover off to drain the primary fluid, so this seemed like a great upgrade. I will most likely purchase the new 2014 Harley SE compensator to go with it as mine was making noises with the 9F cam lope. I read that the new 2014 tensioner has stiffer springs, so it should be a good upgrade.
I also purchased the 117" top end from TXCHOP on Harley Tech Talk. It dynoed at 169 hp and 143 tq on JD's Cycle Works dyno with a Wood 68G cam. The heart of the build is the Hurricane heads that have been worked over by Dan Baisley with his hybrid treatment. The exhaust ports were raised about 1/2" and enlarged to accept a 2" exhaust pipe. The ACR's were welded up and manual compression releases were installed. I spoke with Dan and he didn't have the exact numbers on these heads, but just did a similar set of Hurricane heads that flowed 384 cfm on the intake and 307 cfm on the exhaust at .700" lift and at 26". Along with this I purchased the Axtel 4.125" cylinders and pistons, 62mm throttle body, intake, air cleaner, billet rocker arm support, pushrods and the 1.7 Baisley geometry corrected rocker arms. For now, these parts are going to sit, but I'd like to put them on this bike when I get tired of this motor. They are full of carbon, so nothing much can be seen until I get them cleaned up.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130823_204723.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130823_204723.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130823_204735.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130823_204735.jpg.html)
TXCHOP's 117" Dyno:
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/TXCHOPDyno.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/TXCHOPDyno.jpg.html)
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wow impressive build for sure ...looking forward in see the end results thanks for sharing :2vrolijk_21:
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I spoke with Mike at Lozano's and he said the heads were finished today. I didn't have time to make it there, but I'll pick everything next week. Compression came in at 11.3:1 when all the final measurements were taken.
I picked up the new compensator along with the special $40 adhesive from Harley today. The new design features a lot of extra oiling via centrifugal oiling. Overall the design is pretty slick. The only thing that has me worried is the undercut for oiling in the shaft extension. It looks like it with make the last 1/8" of the shaft with spines very weak and prone to cracking. The bolt takes a T-70 Torxs. I ran around town for 2.5 hours looking for a T-70 bit. I finally decided to try Harbor Freight and they had it in a impact set of 1/2" drive Torx bits. Harbor Freight is becoming just like WalMart....a necessary evil.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161118.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161118.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161918.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161918.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_162102.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_162102.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_162724.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_162724.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_162646.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_162646.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161538.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161538.jpg.html)
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(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161558.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161558.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161624.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161624.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161636.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161636.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161650.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161650.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161658.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161658.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161718.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161718.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161735.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161735.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130830_161528.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130830_161528.jpg.html)
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wow the new compensator looks good... hopefully Harley has this issue fix finally, can't wait for you to give us reviews on it ...thanks for posting good pics
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We are testing one as well look forward to seeing how it works for you. Any final dyno numbers on that set up yet?
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Still not together....next weekend should be the motor build. Hopefully two weeks from tomorrow I'll have it back on the dyno (as long as Mike has time that Saturday).
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Looking to see how it does if you cannot get the time frame to work out let me know if I can help
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just wondering to you purchased the rotor assembly also with new comp.?
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new kit does not have rotor, most times from what we have seen the front of the rotor has damage and will need to be replaced.
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Hmmmm.....I hope not. I only have 2,600 mile and it really wasn't acting up until the slight knocking sound at idle with the addition of the 9F.
On another note, I purchased the Progressive Monotube fork kit. I'm starting with the front suspension due to the extreme diving during breaking. The front kit is pretty cheap (picked it up off eBay for $255 shipped). I'm going to wait to do the rear as they are a lot more money.
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the rotor has been redesign I think you will need it as well with new comp.
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the rotor has been redesign I think you will need it as well with new comp.
Nope, it's the same. If you have a non-CVO you will have to upgrade the rotor, but mine has the appropriate rotor.
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I got all the parts back from LBP today. I'll post picture tomorrow, but here are the final flow numbers from the Hillside Stage III CVO heads with the 20° chamber and coating removed. LBP did touch up the valve job. They were flowed at 28" with a 3.915" plate.
Intake
.200" 155
.300" 230
.400" 275
.500" 306
.600" 322
.700" 315
Exhaust
.200" 109 (70%)
.300" 157 (68%)
.400" 185 (67%)
.500" 204 (67%)
.600" 213 (66%)
.700" 218 (69%)
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Didn't get any engine work done today. LBP forgot to gap my piston rings (lucky I checked), so I had to order a piston ring filer. In the mean time, I installed the new compensator and Hayden chain tensioner. The funny thing is that the only thing left that is original in the primary is the clutch discs, clutch basket bearing, and the inner clutch hub. Everything else has been replaced. On another note, my stock compensator looked really good except for the inner hub for the drive sprocket. It looked like it was a little starved for oil. There was no fretting or other issues.
The Harley provided acrylic adhesive was a PAIN IN THE BUTT!!!! It required a special adapter to dispense from a caulk gun (which I didn't have), so I tried my hardest to evenly dispense the mixture with a couple sockets. That didn't work well at all, so I ended up just dumping a bunch on piece of cardboard and mixing by hand. It was a COMPLETE waste of $40. If anyone wants to do this, I'd recommend trying to find the Maxlok MX/T6 and buying it in a more conventional user friendly tube. Stupid Harley....
As for the primary oil, I'm really thinking about running a 50/50 blend of motorcycle 10w-40 and Mobil 1 ATF. I have been working with a Chevron lube engineer at work, so I have an email in to him to see what he thinks about the compatibility of the two oils. I like the clutch actuation of the ATF, but I would like a little extra metal-metal protection for the new compensator. Any thoughts?
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130907_153702.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130907_153702.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130907_153708.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130907_153708.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130907_153721.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130907_153721.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130907_153728.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130907_153728.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130907_173152.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130907_173152.jpg.html)
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Just saw the pic of the glue kit. Maxlok from Lord is something I've used before. Excellent product but be forewarned; it can be temperamental. Has a relatively short shelf life at common room temperature. Considerably less than a year as I remember. Something to definitely not pick up that's been on a dealer's shelf for awhile.
Obviously not a problem now. It's new to the system for Harley. But it'll get get there.
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And..... here's a source for what I think is the same 10 ounce package for $17 as opposed to the gratuitously higher price Mother Harley is charging:
http://www.chembar.com/adhesives/lord-maxlok-mx-t6/
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Didn't get any engine work done today. LBP forgot to gap my piston rings (lucky I checked), so I had to order a piston ring filer.
You're having incredibly bad experiences with vendors, aren't you... :nervous:
Did they charge you for gapping your rings? LB should ship you their ring filer, since they apparently don't use it on a regular basis! ::)
I suspect there are some who would have just assembled their motor without double checking the vendors work, which would have resulted in a catastrophic failure...cylinders, pistons, metal in the oil... Good for you for looking over their shoulder... :2vrolijk_21:
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And..... here's a source for what I think is the same 10 ounce package for $17 as opposed to the gratuitously higher price Mother Harley is charging:
http://www.chembar.com/adhesives/lord-maxlok-mx-t6/
It appears to be the adhesive and the application dispenser! :2vrolijk_21:
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You're having incredibly bad experiences with vendors, aren't you... :nervous:
Did they charge you for gapping your rings? LB should ship you their ring filer, since they apparently don't use it on a regular basis! ::)
I suspect there are some who would have just assembled their motor without double checking the vendors work, which would have resulted in a catastrophic failure...cylinders, pistons, metal in the oil... Good for you for looking over their shoulder... :2vrolijk_21:
It happens....that's why I double check everything. I could have caught it at LBP, but Mike and I always end up shooting the chit instead of me looking over the parts. No, they didn't charge me. I've built 6+ motors in the past and used a standard file, but I'm trying to make sure this is as good as it can be. I ordered a diamond wheel ring file and ring squaring tool from Summit. It should be here this week. Hopefully, I'll get it fired up next weekend.
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It appears to be the adhesive and the application dispenser! :2vrolijk_21:
The product I've used before is exactly that. And the pic there looks the same. Enough to do many primary covers if a few boys local to each other could only share. Once you mix the binaries there's no going back though! Tallyho!!
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Doorbell just rang at 8:40 tonight and the FedEx guy dropped off the new Progressive cartridges. I'm pretty excited if it gets rid of most of the front end
movement when you grab a hand full of brakes. I have an email into Lyndall to have a custom 13" front rotor made to match the Stinger wheels that the CVO Convertible comes with. I'm trying to get the chassis and brakes lined out with this build, so when I switch to a 117/124 motor it will be able to handle the power.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130907_204335.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130907_204335.jpg.html)
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As for the primary oil, I'm really thinking about running a 50/50 blend of motorcycle 10w-40 and Mobil 1 ATF. I have been working with a Chevron lube engineer at work, so I have an email in to him to see what he thinks about the compatibility of the two oils. I like the clutch actuation of the ATF, but I would like a little extra metal-metal protection for the new compensator. Any thoughts?
Well, I got the email back from the Chevron engineer and he shot down my idea of a 50/50 blend of ATF/engine oil. I'm going to run Lucas' synthetic 5W-20 motorcycle engine oil in the primary per his recommendation of running an engine oil to help with the compensator wear, but make it a light weight oil to match the viscosity properties of ATF. It will be about the same weight as the ATF (I think ATF is about a 10/20 wt oil), so it should provide less drag on the clutches for a better disengagement and ease to find neutral. I ordered a case of 6 off eBay for $65 shipped.
http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=55&catid=16&loc=show (http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?iid=55&catid=16&loc=show)
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The adhesive on the plastic oil trough set and is solid.
Since I didn't have anything else to work on today, I tore into the front suspension. Right now, all I can say is that all Harley owners are STUPID for purchasing such a low tech POS. I was blown away when I saw what they consider to be fork dampening. I thought since the shocks were Showa forks, that they would have actual have valving, but I was sorely mistaken. Harley uses an orifice to control the dampening. This is a JOKE!!! No wonder that the front end dives as bad as they do on the Softails.
Either way, the stock fork guts are history. I've installed the Progressive gas dampers and stock height springs. The springs are much shorter, so I'm assuming they are stiffer as well. This will be welcome on this bike as the suspension felt spongy. Since I wasn't planning on doing this today, I didn't have any 10W fork oil, so I will do the final assembly once i get some next weekend.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130908_132231.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130908_132231.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130908_160904.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130908_160904.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130908_172211.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130908_172211.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130908_172157.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130908_172157.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130908_163226.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130908_163226.jpg.html)
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20130908_163218.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20130908_163218.jpg.html)
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Well, this looks like it will be another wasted weekend. When I check ring gap last weekend I started with the 2nd rings at they were at .013" gap. Since that was too tight, I didn't even bother checking the top rings. Just my luck, the top rings are sitting at .021-.0215" of gap. Per the Axtell instructions, it says with OE Harley cylinders, to set the gap at .016". I searched Summit and Jeg's for the rings I need, but since Axtell uses the big 1/16" rings, they don't have much of anything for 4.010" bores. They do have a set of 8 JE piston rings, but I was hoping to buy individual rings.
I guess I'll be giving Axtell a call Monday to see what they can do. This crap is getting old.
I have a chance to buy a 2008 Street Glide with 3,500 miles on it for $12,000. At the rate I'm going, I better jump on that....
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You need to rethink this program a little. A 4" bore air cooled motor will run just fine at that ring end gap if the second is set a few thou larger. ;)
I would be measuring the piston to wall clearance about the time I got a ring end gap that large. Might be surprised what you are running VS spec.
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You need to rethink this program a little. A 4" bore air cooled motor will run just fine at that ring end gap if the second is set a few thou larger. ;)
I would be measuring the piston to wall clearance about the time I got a ring end gap that large. Might be surprised what you are running VS spec.
I agree... I'd not be to concerned with a .021 top ring gap vs. the spec of .016. And, given the laundry list of issues you've faced with this build, I'd check and double check the piston to bore fit.
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You need to rethink this program a little. A 4" bore air cooled motor will run just fine at that ring end gap if the second is set a few thou larger. ;)
I would be measuring the piston to wall clearance about the time I got a ring end gap that large. Might be surprised what you are running VS spec.
Guess I'm a little lost, so I'm sure I didn't convey the issue correctly. I measure the pistons at 4.0085" and the cylinders at 4.0115". With the unfiled rings in the cylinder bore, the top rings measured .021". Since I'm trying to get as much power as I can, I'm shooting for the .016" that Axtell recommends with the stock HD jugs. The 2nd ring is fine as they have plenty of meat to file to get the .020" I am shooting for. I'd like to run .016" top and .020" 2nd ring gaps.
Am I missing something?
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Guess I'm a little lost, so I'm sure I didn't convey the issue correctly. I measure the pistons at 4.0085" and the cylinders at 4.0115". With the unfiled rings in the cylinder bore, the top rings measured .021". Since I'm trying to get as much power as I can, I'm shooting for the .016" that Axtell recommends with the stock HD jugs. The 2nd ring is fine as they have plenty of meat to file to get the .020" I am shooting for. I'd like to run .016" top and .020" 2nd ring gaps.
Am I missing something?
Sounds like you've inspected the piston to cylinder fitment and found good results. :2vrolijk_21:
My only point is I agree with Deweyheads that .021 top piston ring gap is fairly insignificant vs. the .016 spec. If it were mine, I'd not be overly concerned by that small variance from the spec.
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I thought about it, but I just couldn't get over setting my second ring gap at the corresponding .025" (top + .004"). When I put the top and second ring together, it looks like the second ring is a larger OD, so I'm wondering if I got 4.000" rings for the top and 4.010" rings on the second. I'm so far into this build trying to do everything by the book, why stop being OCD now?
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If you got even .005" undersize rings, you would have a lot more than .021" butt clearance. ::)
John
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If you got even .005" undersize rings, you would have a lot more than .021" butt clearance. ::)
John
So where to you stand on this John? What are your ring gaps that you would set up on a motor like this?
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I would go with the .021" ,and call it a day.
I see quite a few of today's engines come thru with compression ring gaps even higher......no miles to speak of on them (off the showroom floor).
John
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.004"-.005" per inch of bore, and those are minimum dimensions.
Scott
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I'm keeping the stock bottom end and cylinders on this build as I'm only hoping to get one or two years out of it.
...
Sorta sounds like you're good to go, especially since this build will be short-lived. :nixweiss:
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I finally had a day to work on the bike. I took a week off two weeks ago and rented Ultra Glide with some buddies to Ruidoso, NM. We ended up racking up 1600 miles. After that, I had hell to pay at work catching back up, so I'm just now getting back at it.
Good news is the engine is back together. I decided to keep the gaps as they are on the top rings (.021"/.0215"). Chaz at Axtell told me to run .018" on the second, but that goes against what I have set the gap on other motors that I have build....I always run .004" larger on the second ring. I talked to Mike at LPB and he said that he typically runs .030-0.035" in the second rings. I decided that I've been listening to Mike most of the time, so I decided to try it. He said by the significanly larger second gap that it helps reduce ring flutter at high RPM. I though my .004" that I always ran was enough, but LBP said go bigger. I set the second ring gap at .030".
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I fired up the motor today and did my break in heat cycles and took it for a quick trip around the block. All I can say is HOLY CRAP! This motor is a totally different beast from the last. It feels extremely strong at part throttle compared to the last setup. The Hayden primary chain tensioner made a HUGE difference. The shifts don't sound like some took a hammer to the engine case and it goes in and out of gear a lot smoother.
After the quick ride, I did a compression check and the results have me wondering. The front cylinder had 216 ccp and the rear had 190 ccp. I took it for another ride and took it a little higher in the RPM and harder on the throttle to build some cylinder pressure to seat the rings. I came back and the rear tested at 195 psi. I'm guessing that the rear rings didn't seat as quick? I'm done with the bike until I get it back to LBP to be dyno tuned, so hopefully on the dyno the rear cylinder will work itself out.
The whining sound in the video is the Hayden tension. They said it would whine for up to 500 miles until the chain wears to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFVPyxlk7RM
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I fired up the motor today and did my break in heat cycles and took it for a quick trip around the block. All I can say is HOLY CRAP! This motor is a totally different beast from the last. It feels extremely strong at part throttle compared to the last setup. The Hayden primary chain tensioner made a HUGE difference. The shifts don't sound like some took a hammer to the engine case and it goes in and out of gear a lot smoother.
After the quick ride, I did a compression check and the results have me wondering. The front cylinder had 216 ccp and the rear had 190 ccp. I took it for another ride and took it a little higher in the RPM and harder on the throttle to build some cylinder pressure to seat the rings. I came back and the rear tested at 195 psi. I'm guessing that the rear rings didn't seat as quick? I'm done with the bike until I get it back to LBP to be dyno tuned, so hopefully on the dyno the rear cylinder will work itself out.
The whining sound in the video is the Hayden tension. They said it would whine for up to 500 miles until the chain wears to it.
Glad you are finally get this all worked out, what a set of hoops to jump through. It is a shame that it didn't work out like it should of the first go around and that you had to have stuff corrected by another vendor to make it the way it should of been, especially when they are on here day in and day out pushing their wares. I hope you are being reimbursed for at least part of this. Any further thoughts on the compression situation beyond maybe the rings?
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I know you are referring to Hillside, so don't want to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Hillside's knowledge, headwork and prices were great. Hillside's stage III porting on the CVO 110 heads is a top notch porting job. They flow excellent numbers and when the 20° dome is cut into the chamber they flow even better. I couldn't be happier about all those things.
The coatings didn't work on a 200+ ccp build that is my fault, not Hillsides. Now, as far as the order of the coating and valve job were performed and the bore size of the head gasket that was used is where I got frustrated. The coating got masked off and applied with a 4.125" bore gasket. Scott said he sent a 4" bore gasket and Swain Tech said they don't keep gaskets around there and used what was sent. Scott quickly took the heads back to have them re-surfaced for me for no cost....again he was doing what it took to get this going for me. After that, I found out that the coating had made it onto area of the seat and caused the valves not to seal properly. I was asking them to work with coatings that they don't normally do, so there is always going to be hiccups. To get this going, I just had to find someone closer than New York.
Bottom line is that I would use Hillside again for headwork....Scott and Craig know how to get a set of heads flowing.
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x2 very well spoken... as Hillside custmer as well with over 10,000 miles so far on build very happy and like you i will use them again also ...
" UNBALANCE" has thing for them ..and if you do a little research you will see a continous effert to slam Hillside and there products ...so i have learned to take UNBLANCE post with a grain of salt
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I know you are referring to Hillside, so don't want to leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Hillside's knowledge, headwork and prices were great. Hillside's stage III porting on the CVO 110 heads is a top notch porting job. They flow excellent numbers and when the 20° dome is cut into the chamber they flow even better. I couldn't be happier about all those things.
The coatings didn't work on a 200+ ccp build that is my fault, not Hillsides. Now, as far as the order of the coating and valve job were performed and the bore size of the head gasket that was used is where I got frustrated. The coating got masked off and applied with a 4.125" bore gasket. Scott said he sent a 4" bore gasket and Swain Tech said they don't keep gaskets around there and used what was sent. Scott quickly took the heads back to have them re-surfaced for me for no cost....again he was doing what it took to get this going for me. After that, I found out that the coating had made it onto area of the seat and caused the valves not to seal properly. I was asking them to work with coatings that they don't normally do, so there is always going to be hiccups. To get this going, I just had to find someone closer than New York.
Bottom line is that I would use Hillside again for headwork....Scott and Craig know how to get a set of heads flowing.
Kind words from a true gentleman. :2vrolijk_21:
Scott
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I just took the plugs out of the bike and sprayed WD40 in the cylinders and did a cold compression test. The front was 206 psi and the rear was 205 psi. It looks like the rear cylinder didn't have enough oil. I'm extremely relieved!
I'll be at LBP at 9:00 am tomorrow morning to get it dyno tuned. I'll be posting results tomorrow!
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wooohooo grats ...cant wait to see it all pay off for ya
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oh btw your bike sounds a lot like mine at idle
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Got the bike dyno tuned today at LBP by Mike....bitter sweet day for me. I think the +3 tooth clutch basket was messing with the top speed limiter, so all WOT tuning and dyno runs was done in 4th gear...not optimal for the numbers game (not my goal, but nice bragging rights). I ended up with basically 126 hp and 108 ft-lbs. The pipe pushed to power band to the right, so we had to spin it to 6,400 to start to see the hp start to slow it's climb, but it was still climbing. I'm sure there is 3-5+ more hp in it with some additional rpm, but it's not worth it with my stock bottom end. The linear hp line reminds me of a centrifical superchager motor. Mike said that 5th gear usually ads 2-3 hp to the graph and engine synthetics are good for 1 additional (I had conventional in the bike during the dyno to get the rings seated....I already changed to oil to Mobil 1 15W-50). I'm sure if I can get the tune switched over to my TTS so I can make a 6th gear pull, it would be very close to 130 hp. Torque...that's another story. I'm just lucky that I put the +3 tooth clutch basket in. The torque curve is oddly flat.
Overall, I'm happy to have it running, but slightly disappointed in the torque. It doesn't feel too bad with my riding style, so I'm not too concerned. The RB pipe makes power up top and would be great for drag racing, but defiantly hurts the bottom end. Once I get my TIG welder out of storage and moved into whatever house I buy, I'll cut the pipe up and probably make the first section of pipe 1.875" to get a little torque back down low. The step should also help with reversion. Might think about playing with a Bassani Road Rage in the meantime....
Either way, I'm just happy to have a bike to ride.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20131012_192908.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20131012_192908.jpg.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cokkbUKkAH0
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6,400 to start to see the hp start to slow it's climb, but it was still climbing.
Good sign!
Cam and pipe changes will allow you to further tune the bike to where you want it. Unfortunately costly and complex compared to the same result with more mainstream and proven parts packages.
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we have a very similar build ... between his bike and mine ... like the poster mention about his tq being kinda low I notice that as well the big difference between his and mine are I have woods 8 cam and VH pro pipe ... he is running wood 9 and rbs pipe if my tq is 120 and his is only 108 I'm thinking he short at least minimum 12- 17 tq shouldn't the woods 9 produce more tq and hp then the woods 8 if both builds are the same
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we have a very similar build ... between his bike and mine ... like the poster mention about his tq being kinda low I notice that as well the big difference between his and mine are I have woods 8 cam and VH pro pipe ... he is running wood 9 and rbs pipe if my tq is 120 and his is only 108 I'm thinking he short at least minimum 12- 17 tq shouldn't the woods 9 produce more tq and hp then the woods 8 if both builds are the same
Yeah, it's the 2" primaries without steps killing me in my street application. The 9F won't produce more torque than the 8F, but it should be good for a couple extra hp. The 8F is a great cam from what I have read, so you picked a good one. From everything I've read on HTT, Harley's RPM range/band is equally dictated by the pipe and the cam. Several other 9F builds have topped around 6,000, but it must have been the pipe or heads stopping them. I want to keep the pipe and only put 1.875" primaries out of the head, because I think it would work well like that on 117"-124" combo.
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ahhh ok makes sense to me now thanks ;D
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The bike is extremely fast, but missing the torque down low. I've ordered an Andrews -4 degree crank gear, a Bassani B2 Road Rage pipe, and a Power Vision tuner with the wide band auto tune package so I can retune my VE after I make changes. I've actually had the Bassani exhaust for a while, but never put it on because I personally thought it is ugly and lacks a merge collector. I also plan to cut the stamped collector off and weld on a merge collector to see if that I worth any power/torque.
My plan is to get the exact tune I have switched over to the TTS tuner so I can dyno in 5th gear and get a baseline dyno at the Harley shop near me. After that, I'll switch one part at a time, retune, and re-dyno.
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How can you bring your self to continue spending so much $$ on this. No disrespect at all, but as I am reading this thread and my heart hurts from all the work, expense, and trial and error. I'm just putting my self in your shews, and can't help being stressed out by it all. :-X Hope it all works out.
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Everything's BIGGER in Texas? ??? :nixweiss: :-\
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Thanks for documenting your build, impressive results.
Needless to say, I learned a lot.
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How can you bring your self to continue spending so much $$ on this. No disrespect at all, but as I am reading this thread and my heart hurts from all the work, expense, and trial and error. I'm just putting my self in your shews, and can't help being stressed out by it all. :-X Hope it all works out.
I love projects and solving problems....I love fabrication more, but my equipment is in storage right now until I find a different house. This bike is 'holding me over'.
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I got my tune downloaded from the SEPST and copied over to the TTS. The primary ratio was set to the correct ratio with the 49 tooth clutch basket. This made a big difference in the ride-ability of the bike....it just seems smoother everywhere.
I also got my Andrews -4° crank gear. Hopefully I can get my cranking compression up to the 210+ range with this and bring the peak power down in RPM's slightly. Next step is to get bike dyno'd on the local dyno before I start changing stuff.
(http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac318/moparmuscl3/20131116_124902.jpg) (http://s911.photobucket.com/user/moparmuscl3/media/20131116_124902.jpg.html)
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The bike is extremely fast, but missing the torque down low.
It will be hard to get back what the original cam does in this motor from idle to 2,500.
I would not expect the +4 to make much difference but it is cheap enough. The pipe, cam and heads plus static compression will be the main drivers how the torque curve looks, the shape. The larger humped up torque curve the internet et-al seems to prefer can be obtainable to a certain degree but in your case you are telling the motor to run then asking it to hold back. Mixed signals. The heads have a large CSA for the amount of cubic inches. The cam has a late intake close and the compression is added to try and recapture the low end lost.
Fixing this is a lot simpler than you may think. Considering a pipe like a FatCat and a different cam like a Tman 660sm at 10.3-10.5 would be a start. Then a retune. All of that said if someone was starting from scratch there are a lot easier less costly schemes to get a 110 to run well peaking in the low 120s at 5,500 rpm with 190ccp and more gross torque under the curve.
No put down or disrespect meant to any of the companys involved in the project or to you, the owner. Your attention to detail is meticulous and appreciated.
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The bike is extremely fast, but missing the torque down low.
It will be hard to get back what the original cam does in this motor from idle to 2,500.
I would not expect the +4 to make much difference but it is cheap enough. The pipe, cam and heads plus static compression will be the main drivers how the torque curve looks, the shape. The larger humped up torque curve the internet et-al seems to prefer can be obtainable to a certain degree but in your case you are telling the motor to run then asking it to hold back. Mixed signals. The heads have a large CSA for the amount of cubic inches. The cam has a late intake close and the compression is added to try and recapture the low end lost.
Fixing this is a lot simpler than you may think. Considering a pipe like a FatCat and a different cam like a Tman 660sm at 10.3-10.5 would be a start. Then a retune. All of that said if someone was starting from scratch there are a lot easier less costly schemes to get a 110 to run well peaking in the low 120s at 5,500 rpm with 190ccp and more gross torque under the curve.
No put down or disrespect meant to any of the companys involved in the project or to you, the owner. Your attention to detail is meticulous and appreciated.
Thanks for the input. You summed up what I have learned....the hard way. I'm just tinkering right now and using the 110 . Right now I have a Power Vision with wide band kit, Bassani Road Rage, and the Andrews +4° crank gear. I might cut up the RB pipe to add a step and reduce the primary size or add a merge to the Bassani. Other than that, there won't be anymore money spent on the 110". Right now, the tinkering is just keeping me busy.
Semi related question....why can the 662-1 with a 45° closing handle more 0.5 points compression than the 660SM with a 46° intake closing?
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I didn't read every post, I thought you still had a 9f.
The 662-1 and 660sm are close to each other when comparing low end torque characteristics all things being equal. On the CVO head motors I prefer the LSA of the 660 a little more but we are splitting hairs.
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I didn't read every post, I thought you still had a 9f.
The 662-1 and 660sm are close to each other when comparing low end torque characteristics all things being equal. On the CVO head motors I prefer the LSA of the 660 a little more but we are splitting hairs.
I do still have the 9F....just asking questions.
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I like the 660sm a little better for this application. Actually the SE259 has been a good performer too in a lower lift grind.
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6,400 to start to see the hp start to slow it's climb, but it was still climbing.
Good sign!
Cam and pipe changes will allow you to further tune the bike to where you want it. Unfortunately costly and complex compared to the same result with more mainstream and proven parts packages.
I read a bulletin from the MoCo a while back stating "Do not rev the B motor past 6200 no matter what mods are done to it."
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I read a bulletin from the MoCo a while back stating "Do not rev the B motor past 6200 no matter what mods are done to it."
Is this the same MOCO that says .012" of crank run out is acceptable? J/K.... kind of. I understand the risks of running out a counter balanced motor. Lots of moving parts that were not made to spin that fast.
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Is this the same MOCO that says .012" of crank run out is acceptable? J/K.... kind of. I understand the risks of running out a counter balanced motor. Lots of moving parts that were not made to spin that fast.
Yes, the next version of that shared set of specifications will allow infinite crank run out but say the motor simply can't be started if the warranty is to remain in effect.
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I also purchased the 117" top end from TXCHOP on Harley Tech Talk. It dynoed at 169 hp and 143 tq on JD's Cycle Works dyno with a Wood 68G cam. The heart of the build is the Hurricane heads that have been worked over by Dan Baisley with his hybrid treatment. The exhaust ports were raised about 1/2" and enlarged to accept a 2" exhaust pipe. The ACR's were welded up and manual compression releases were installed. I spoke with Dan and he didn't have the exact numbers on these heads, but just did a similar set of Hurricane heads that flowed 384 cfm on the intake and 307 cfm on the exhaust at .700" lift and at 26". Along with this I purchased the Axtel 4.125" cylinders and pistons, 62mm throttle body, intake, air cleaner, billet rocker arm support, pushrods and the 1.7 Baisley geometry corrected rocker arms. For now, these parts are going to sit, but I'd like to put them on this bike when I get tired of this motor. They are full of carbon, so nothing much can be seen until I get them cleaned up.
Is that 117 end kit still for sale??
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What size exhaust valves were used?