Post by: T-Roy on April 06, 2015, 06:31:55 PM
Post by: moscooter on April 06, 2015, 06:41:58 PM
It would seem to me the Barnett clutch plates or whatever.......has absolutely nothing to do with loss of hydraulic pressure in the clutch lever. This whole deal should be on their dime (Harleys), and the fact that you have some Barnett clutch parts in no way is the culprit. :drink:
Post by: T-Roy on April 06, 2015, 07:20:08 PM
:-\
It would seem to me the Barnett clutch plates or whatever.......has absolutely nothing to do with loss of hydraulic pressure in the clutch lever. This whole deal should be on their dime (Harleys), and the fact that you have some Barnett clutch parts in no way is the culprit. :drink:
I agree, but I was surprised for them to even do the master cylinder without a bunch of fuss. If the master cylinder does not fix it I will fight that battle then.
Post by: MrSurly on April 06, 2015, 07:29:28 PM
I expect you'll be good and there are worse places to be stranded(!)
Now, how LONG you'll be waiting on the part.....
Post by: T-Roy on April 06, 2015, 08:08:09 PM
Your description of the failure is 'textbook' for a bypassing master cylinder.
I expect you'll be good and there are worse places to be stranded(!)
Now, how LONG you'll be waiting on the part.....
That is gonna be great when that fixes it. They overnighted the part which ships tomorrow. So they should have the master cylinder changed Wednesday and I was going to be here till Wednesday anyway. If that does not fix it I will return the rental bike and my daughter will come get me. She is only about 1.5 hours away. It could have been so much worse. Like it could have happened in August on the way to Sturgis. Also the Harley shop lowered the bike rental rate to match what ESP will pay. ESP will pay for rental for 10 days but I have to head to Galveston Texas on Thursday to go offshore to work, hopefully on MY BIKE.
Post by: T-Roy on April 06, 2015, 08:10:12 PM
Post by: cambo on April 06, 2015, 09:53:54 PM
Cam
Post by: MrSurly on April 06, 2015, 10:22:10 PM
I had to think on that for a minute, but yes, a leaking slave would put brake fluid straight into the trans.
I'd be greatly troubled by his "IDK" response. It isn't that complicated. If fluid left the reservoir it went SOMEwhere.
If it's not on the floor, it's in the gearbox.
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Post by: T-Roy on April 06, 2015, 10:38:50 PM
Post by: fastfreddy on April 06, 2015, 10:40:41 PM
Post by: 120R on April 07, 2015, 01:01:02 AM
Giulio
Post by: moscooter on April 07, 2015, 07:47:37 AM
Hey 120R.............You need to review the DOT fluid types and understand that synthetic fluid (DOT 5).........should NOT be put into a bike with an ABS brake system.
How Many Different Types of Brake Fluid are there?
There are several types of brake fluid. They include glycol-based fluids DOT 3, DOT 4 and DOT 5.1, as well as a silicone-based brake fluid named DOT 5. The silicone-based brake fluid is put only into vehicles with non-ABS systems. These must not have ever been filled with the glycol-based fluids. The different DOT categories refer to the different boiling points of the fluids and DOT stands for Department of Transportation. The higher the DOT number, the better quality of the brake fluid, as well as the more expensive it is. Your car's manual can tell you which one is best for your car or truck's optimal performance level.
Post by: grc on April 07, 2015, 08:36:27 AM
Jerry
Post by: snowrider13 on April 07, 2015, 09:09:02 AM
Post by: jpb on April 07, 2015, 10:07:16 AM
I had the exact same problem on my 2015 Non-CVO Ultra Limited with 480 miles on it. The dealer called late Saturday and told me that it had half the fluid and blamed HD for not filling it properly. They had it all fixed and ready for me to pick it up, which I couldn't do until today. When I picked up the bike today the clutch was still not operational. They took the bike back to the shop and told me it was bone dry (their words) again! This time they changed the master cylinder, filled it with fluid, rode it around the block and gave it back to me. I rode it around for 60 miles and so far so good. Unfortunately it will be raining the rest of the week and I won't get to ride until Saturday to see if the problem has been remedied. What concerns me is that the mechanic who worked on the bike had no idea what happened to the fluid they put in on Saturday if it was bone dry again by Monday morning since there was never any fluid around the bike. :nixweiss:
Cam
Hello Cam,
Like I said the other day, if you could not find any leaks on the floor it's in the tranny. I think the slave is leaking like a mofo. Sorry to be the bad news guy but the new master cylinder won't fix your problem. Make sure when you take it back to get it fixed correctly with a new slave that they change out the contaminated tranny fluid as well. I don't know for sure but the lubrication properties could be altered in a seriously negative way. This could, Maybe?, affect the seals as well.
Will you have it back for this Saturday's ride?
John
Post by: cambo on April 07, 2015, 01:07:14 PM
Hello Cam,John,
Like I said the other day, if you could not find any leaks on the floor it's in the tranny. I think the slave is leaking like a mofo. Sorry to be the bad news guy but the new master cylinder won't fix your problem. Make sure when you take it back to get it fixed correctly with a new slave that they change out the contaminated tranny fluid as well. I don't know for sure but the lubrication properties could be altered in a seriously negative way. This could, Maybe?, affect the seals as well.
Will you have it back for this Saturday's ride?
John
Even with reinforcements (one of my riding buddies who is as knowledgeable as you came with me) this dealer would not budge and considers the problem taken care of! So since I am real close to the 1000 mile service I think I will ride it this weekend which should get me there (currently I have 600 miles on it). Then I'll take it to Frederick HD and have them check it out and fix it. What do you think?
Can
Post by: RonandJanet on April 07, 2015, 01:16:50 PM
It is interesting that the clutch line could leak fluid into the transmission and mix with the fluid there. That can't be a good thing. I would have thought that the mechanism had to be separated. That is what I get for thinking!
Post by: jpb on April 07, 2015, 02:29:02 PM
John,
Even with reinforcements (one of my riding buddies who is as knowledgeable as you came with me) this dealer would not budge and considers the problem taken care of! So since I am real close to the 1000 mile service I think I will ride it this weekend which should get me there (currently I have 600 miles on it). Then I'll take it to Frederick HD and have them check it out and fix it. What do you think?
Can
I would say leave it sit for a few days and pull the master cylinder cover off and see if it has dropped. I am almost positive you will find it empty again. You have already dropped two master cylinder load fulls into the tranny. This will make a third.
I hope I don't get bashed for this but I believe rubber parts that come into contact with brake fluids are specially formulated and the seals on your tranny are not. This transmission / brake fluid mixture you may or may not have might just cause your tranny seals to fail?
Of course even if it does it is covered under warranty but do you want this same guy working on your transmission? NOT!!
Post by: grc on April 07, 2015, 04:05:25 PM
If the system just had a lot of air in it from new and the fluid level in the reservoir dropped as the air was purged, the clutch would have operated very poorly with that much air in the system. Such as severe clutch drag causing difficult shifting when moving and a huge bang and grind when engaging first from neutral. If you didn't have any of those problems early on, then a large amount of air in the system wasn't the problem.
I think you need to get the bike to a competent shop, before you find yourself stranded with an inoperable clutch.
Jerry
Post by: cambo on April 07, 2015, 04:29:00 PM
You are both correct. The bike was not right from day one but I thought maybe because it is new so didn't make a big deal out of the fact that I could not start it while in gear (it would lurch forward even with the clutch engaged) and it acted like an automatic transmission at stop lights, meaning unless I applied the break the bike would creep forward. Then it stopped working completely and I could not put it in gear from neutral or roll it with the clutch engaged and the engine not running unless I put it in neutral. So essentially the clutch was dead.
Ron,
On Saturday they did the bleed and refill routine and told me it was low and had a lot of air in the line. By Monday when I went to pick up the bike the fluid was all gone again. The mechanic was adamant that he had never seen this problem before (he was the senior mechanic at the dealership) and the service manager stated that the fluid would not leak into the transmission anyhow because Harley has a new design that isolates the clutch from the transmission and I have nothing to worry about. When I asked about where all the fluid went if it's not in the transmission or on the floor I got blank stares. I did not have enough knowledge of clutch/transmission design in general or how HD does things so I had to take his word on it, especially since both the manager and the head mechanic promptly left for lunch before they even told the service writer that the bike was fixed (according to them) and what they did to fix it.
I will try the clutch again the rest of the week and if there are any issues will take it to Frederick (not the dealership that has so far worked on it). Regardless when I take it for the 1000 mile service I will ask that they look into the leak situation and document what they find and what they do about it for future reference.
:nervous:
Cam
Post by: 120R on April 08, 2015, 12:40:06 AM
Giulio
Post by: grc on April 08, 2015, 08:51:42 AM
Back in 2012, for the 2013 models, the CVO clutch actuator setup was changed, but I don't see anything that would preclude fluid getting into the trans if the actuator was leaking. The models with the new setup are easy to identify, they have the separate plastic cover over the actual trans side cover, and the bleeder fitting is hidden. If the cylinder develops a leak, the fluid can still track into the trans through the pushrod hole. If the leak was external to the trans side, then the fluid would eventually find it's way to the bottom of the bike and drip on the floor. In Cam's case it has been stated there was no sign of an external leak, and the amount of fluid that was "missing" would have made for a decent sized puddle. Of course, now we know his clutch wasn't releasing properly since day one, so maybe he just had a ton of air in the system that wasn't removed the first time by the dealership tech, but the amount of fluid drop that's been described would translate to a huge amount of air and I doubt the clutch would have released at all. I guess time will tell what really happened, at least when a competent tech checks the bike out.
Jerry
Post by: RonandJanet on April 08, 2015, 11:45:14 AM
Post by: cambo on April 08, 2015, 06:42:45 PM
Camcvo, I very interested in how this works out and I hope everything is fine now.
Ronald,
Based on the opinion expressed by knowledgeable folks John, Jerry, and the rest of the members on this site I don't think I'm out of the woods yet! I'll be riding with John and the gang this weekend and will be 'smoke testing' the fix as it were. I will keep everyone posted as to the outcome unless I don't survive the test unscathed in which case I'm sure John will provide the blow by blow! :nervous:
Cam
Post by: T-Roy on April 08, 2015, 11:53:15 PM
Post by: MrSurly on April 09, 2015, 01:54:27 AM
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Post by: grc on April 09, 2015, 08:55:39 AM
Makes me wonder if they just did a rebuild of the M/C and somehow screwed it up, or they actually installed a new M/C and it was one of the defective ones that caused the M/C recall not too long ago. Hopefully the second shop will get it right for you.
Jerry
Post by: cambo on April 09, 2015, 09:02:27 AM
Cam
Post by: OBB on April 09, 2015, 09:35:10 AM
Interesting how this is obviously an issue that happens a lot and yet the service departments have no way of sharing any info on its occurrence or how, if ever, they fix it. As a computer geek I see an opportunity for a knowledge sharing website for the dealer network. Kinda like what we have here for us riders. Hmmm...Hell, all they have to do is create an account here and read everything we post about. :2vrolijk_21:
Cam
T-Roy, Just from your description of the second failure with you saying the clutch lever locked up, to me it sounds like something got jammed in the mech itself. It wouldn't surprise me if it's part of a zip tie or something stupid. Interesting to see how it turns out.
Post by: cambo on April 09, 2015, 09:40:34 AM
Cam
Post by: MrSurly on April 09, 2015, 12:27:24 PM
I wonder if the contamination might actually be visible in the drained trans fluid.
I wouldn't drain it at this point but I'd sure want to check the level and document it.
Actually, if it were on my lift, I know what I would do.
I would drain the trans dry, leave it open and start filling and operating the clutch while catching the fluid from the trans in a clean plan. Just to clear up the *mystery* which is actually not a mystery at all.
Your clutch actuator is leaking. Your transmission is receiving and storing.
Now, how in the HELL any 'mechanic' could not figure this out is beyond belief.
Post by: cambo on April 09, 2015, 01:09:48 PM
2 hours later Garry, the service manager called to arrange for the bike to be picked up (tomorrow at 10 AM as their driver is gone for the day). He did not remember me even though I talked to him last Saturday and met him this past Monday (3 days ago) when they delivered the bike with the clutch not working, he was the one to check and verify that the clutch is dead and went inside and got the service guy to come out and take the bike in. I also bought the bike from them and they picked it up once already last week. This don't sound good guys. Very disappointed.
I told Scott that I don't lose my cool as I don't think it helps to throw a fit but I am documenting my experience online.
Oh, Ken never called.
:'(
Cam
Post by: Jswerve on April 09, 2015, 01:52:51 PM
Post by: jpb on April 09, 2015, 02:12:35 PM
Wow. Sad experience. Sorry Cam.
Damn Cam,
It's like I said, I knew it would happen!
Bring that puppy over and we will through it on the lift and change the actuator/slave out and change the tranny fluid. :bananarock:
No charge on my part. Then take back the defective part and demand a refund. :apple:
Post by: T-Roy on April 09, 2015, 02:16:50 PM
Post by: grc on April 09, 2015, 02:40:12 PM
Interesting how this is obviously an issue that happens a lot and yet the service departments have no way of sharing any info on its occurrence or how, if ever, they fix it. As a computer geek I see an opportunity for a knowledge sharing website for the dealer network. Kinda like what we have here for us riders. Hmmm...
Cam
There is a technet system on the Harley network for the dealers (not available to the general public). I haven't been on it so I have no idea what kind of information is available to the techs, but the problem goes a lot deeper than just having someone tell them exactly what the problem is and what to do about it. The bigger problem is that these so-called techs don't understand how the system works, and therefore have no clue how to diagnose a problem. They really should be called parts changers, not technicians or mechanics. And Harley does in fact have easy to follow diagnostic routines available to the dealership employees, both in paper manuals and on the shop computer system. As someone said a long time ago, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Most Harley dealers need to seriously upgrade the quality of the people in their service departments, but as we've talked about many times before most aren't willing to spend the money and don't see a need to do anything as long as the "faithful" keep coming back and buying more bikes and accessories and clothes and other crap.
Jerry
Post by: cambo on April 09, 2015, 03:18:58 PM
Damn Cam,John,
It's like I said, I knew it would happen!
Bring that puppy over and we will through it on the lift and change the actuator/slave out and change the tranny fluid. :bananarock:
No charge on my part. Then take back the defective part and demand a refund. :apple:
Thank you very much for the offer. The dealer is insisting that I give them one more shot. They are prioritizing the repairs and will have the bike back to me tomorrow or Saturday if all goes well. If not I will do as you said and then will owe you big time.
Jerry you are so right. But unless I get to be as good as the rest of y'all and do my own repairs or someone else makes a bike that looks and acts like a Harley I have to find a way to live with the shortcomings.
The saga continues...
Cam
Post by: phato1 on April 09, 2015, 09:13:14 PM
John,
Thank you very much for the offer. The dealer is insisting that I give them one more shot. They are prioritizing the repairs and will have the bike back to me tomorrow or Saturday if all goes well. If not I will do as you said and then will owe you big time.
Jerry you are so right. But unless I get to be as good as the rest of y'all and do my own repairs or someone else makes a bike that looks and acts like a Harley I have to find a way to live with the shortcomings.
The saga continues...
Cam
You're not a virgin anymore! You did your own exhaust mod and loaded the tune with windows - I'll bet that with a modestly stocked tool box and a shop manual there's not much you wouldn't be able to tackle so don't sell yourself short. Besides if you get into a repair and need help we'll be here on the old interweb, and some of the members would probably even be willing to be there in person to help you out.
I do hope that the dealer has an actual technician with some troubleshooting skills work on and repair your bike this time.
Post by: cambo on April 09, 2015, 11:58:50 PM
You're not a virgin anymore! You did your own exhaust mod and loaded the tune with windows - I'll bet that with a modestly stocked tool box and a shop manual there's not much you wouldn't be able to tackle so don't sell yourself short. Besides if you get into a repair and need help we'll be here on the old interweb, and some of the members would probably even be willing to be there in person to help you out.
I do hope that the dealer has an actual technician with some troubleshooting skills work on and repair your bike this time.
Thanks Phato. Actually Russ (05train) helped me out with the Hayden Tensioner install on the CVO BO and John (jpb) has volunteered to help out with the clutch repairs if necessary. There's also Jimmy (2k) who last year told me to bring the chrome brake calipers and he was going to help me install them while I stayed at his place. So you are right. Unfortunately due to my relative lack of real mechanical skills all I can offer is to show up for moral support (and bring the beer as soon as the bagger is operational) or as an extra pair of hands to move heavy objects around.
Cam
Cam
Post by: cambo on April 10, 2015, 02:05:05 PM
Quantico showed up this morning and picked up the bike around 9 AM. I got a call from Blake in the service department around 1:30 to explain one more time what I have experienced with the bike. I went through the whole thing again and insisted that they either explain where the fluid is ending up or flush the transmission regardless of what they have to do to fix the clutch. The service guy told me he had to contact Harley to see if they would approve the repairs!!! I asked him if he really needed to do that for a bike that is 4 months old and only has 500 miles on it. He said Harley has to approve the process and encouraged me to contact them myself if I so desired. So...
Contacted Harley customer service, went through the whole story yet again and the harley representative said there is no record of any request to them or any info on my bike regarding any service. He wanted to know why I called since that is not necessary. I told him I was told I needed to contact them. He disputed the opinion that the clutch fluid could 'ever' end up in the transmission and wanted to know where I got that idea. I told him I am in no position to argue that point but asked him to tell me where else the fluid, which as been filled up 3 times in four months, could possibly end up. I also told him regardless of where the fluid is I need them to tell me and also flush whatever area contained the lost fluid, cuz it sure as heck ain't on my garage floor or their shot floor.
He was very apologetic and said he will contact the dealership and call me back with updates.
Stay tuned...
Cam
Post by: MrSurly on April 10, 2015, 02:16:07 PM
Did you happen to check the level of the transmission fluid?
Post by: jpb on April 10, 2015, 02:27:48 PM
Update:
Quantico showed up this morning and picked up the bike around 9 AM. I got a call from Blake in the service department around 1:30 to explain one more time what I have experienced with the bike. I went through the whole thing again and insisted that they either explain where the fluid is ending up or flush the transmission regardless of what they have to do to fix the clutch. The service guy told me he had to contact Harley to see if they would approve the repairs!!! I asked him if he really needed to do that for a bike that is 4 months old and only has 500 miles on it. He said Harley has to approve the process and encouraged me to contact them myself if I so desired. So...
Contacted Harley customer service, went through the whole story yet again and the harley representative said there is no record of any request to them or any info on my bike regarding any service. He wanted to know why I called since that is not necessary. I told him I was told I needed to contact them. He disputed the opinion that the clutch fluid could 'ever' end up in the transmission and wanted to know where I got that idea. I told him I am in no position to argue that point but asked him to tell me where else the fluid, which as been filled up 3 times in four months, could possibly end up. I also told him regardless of where the fluid is I need them to tell me and also flush whatever area contained the lost fluid, cuz it sure as heck ain't on my garage floor or their shot floor.
He was very apologetic and said he will contact the dealership and call me back with updates.
Stay tuned...
Cam
Cam,
Hang n there. Your dealing with idiots. Once you get it fixed you can stay clear of them in the future.
Tell them you are going to invoke the lemon law and you want a full refund. Bike has been in for the same repair three times in less than two weeks.
I am glad you are staying cool! I would be there raising hell and probably would be hauled to jail by the local police about now.
Post by: RonandJanet on April 10, 2015, 02:35:47 PM
Post by: cambo on April 10, 2015, 03:54:26 PM
*<subscribed>*
Did you happen to check the level of the transmission fluid?
No. As much as I am being asked if I have touched the clutch system or anything else in any way every time I talk to them I want to be able to say no emphatically.
Post by: MrSurly on April 10, 2015, 04:12:19 PM
Personally, *I* would be Soooooo curious that I would have to look.
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Post by: Fired00d on April 10, 2015, 04:23:46 PM
Ok, I can understand that position.After all the BS Cam has been through w/this issue I doubt if I could let them look at my bike w/o me looking over their shoulder. :sauer005:
Personally, *I* would be Soooooo curious that I would have to look.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Post by: Jswerve on April 10, 2015, 04:42:34 PM
After all the BS Cam has been through w/this issue I doubt if I could let them look at my bike w/o me looking over their shoulder. :sauer005:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Amen dOOd
Post by: sadunbar on April 10, 2015, 05:42:02 PM
Update:
Quantico showed up this morning and picked up the bike around 9 AM. I got a call from Blake in the service department around 1:30 to explain one more time what I have experienced with the bike. I went through the whole thing again and insisted that they either explain where the fluid is ending up or flush the transmission regardless of what they have to do to fix the clutch. The service guy told me he had to contact Harley to see if they would approve the repairs!!! I asked him if he really needed to do that for a bike that is 4 months old and only has 500 miles on it. He said Harley has to approve the process and encouraged me to contact them myself if I so desired. So...
Contacted Harley customer service, went through the whole story yet again and the harley representative said there is no record of any request to them or any info on my bike regarding any service. He wanted to know why I called since that is not necessary. I told him I was told I needed to contact them. He disputed the opinion that the clutch fluid could 'ever' end up in the transmission and wanted to know where I got that idea. I told him I am in no position to argue that point but asked him to tell me where else the fluid, which as been filled up 3 times in four months, could possibly end up. I also told him regardless of where the fluid is I need them to tell me and also flush whatever area contained the lost fluid, cuz it sure as heck ain't on my garage floor or their shot floor.
He was very apologetic and said he will contact the dealership and call me back with updates.
Stay tuned...
Cam
Arghhhhh.... Incompetence runs rampant at every turn...
Post by: cambo on April 10, 2015, 05:57:56 PM
Post by: cambo on April 13, 2015, 12:24:52 PM
So I called back Harley customer service. Talked to Tim, who told me the dealer told them they bled the line, topped it off with fluid and the bike is working perfectly now.
I asked Tim where the fluid could be going since this is the fourth time they are topping it off and why they don't seem to care one way or another. They say the dealer is disputing my claim and they have to side with their dealer.
I asked to talk to somebody higher up and I was told there is nobody higher up at Harley I can talk to.
Does anyone have any contact info within Harley customer service to get me connected?
I am about to go with another brand. Can not take a chance with a bike that is gonna have me AND my wife on it with clutch/transmission problems.
Cam
Post by: MrSurly on April 13, 2015, 12:48:26 PM
How in the Hell anyone could just 'blow off' the lost clutch fluid issue is beyond me.
I can certainly understand your frustration. If it were me, I would have to force the issue with the dealer.
Before that, the only other thing to try would be to contact different dealer service managers to ask if THEY can fix your bike after hearing the issue.
As to forcing it, I would go there and demand that they CHECK the trans fluid level right in front of me, then drain the trans. Then pull the trans door and lets just SEE if we can make it leak while it's open. I would offer, (if necessary) to pay their hourly rate IF it's proven not to leak.
Or try this: call CS again and speak to whomever, but insist that they get an engineer on the line to agree with what you're being told.
I will expect that this will not be your course of action but at LEAST call another dealer and see if they will fix it.
Ricky
Post by: gadgetz on April 13, 2015, 12:51:52 PM
I'm at a loss for words at the way they've treated your issue Cam, I'd be in jail about now; or at least barred from the Dealership for life-oh and they'd own the bike back too, use the lemon law on'em guy. :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 12:54:21 PM
Once the rep is there ask to have the darn side cover of the tranny - the side with the clutch actuator obviously- taken off to check the thing. This should not be taken as a outrageous request since it's not really that hard to do.......
Sorry you have to deal with this extreme level of incompetence.
Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 01:03:24 PM
Post by: T-Roy on April 13, 2015, 01:16:52 PM
Post by: T-Roy on April 13, 2015, 01:19:43 PM
Post by: MrSurly on April 13, 2015, 01:25:58 PM
You and I don't have access to it, but someone does and engineering does.
That info MUST contain in writing the steps for checking trans fluid and draining in the event of an actuator leak.
THIS is the info that somebody needs to shove in the face of the dealer AND CS.
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Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 01:32:26 PM
Post by: MrSurly on April 13, 2015, 01:33:54 PM
How anyone can claim to be a mechanic and NOT get this is a fool.
Cam, please do this: pose the question differently, say "Ok, MINE may not be leaking, but just academically... I have to ask "*IF* a clutch actuator seal (the seal around its piston) DOES leak.... where does THAT fluid go?"
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Post by: cambo on April 13, 2015, 01:37:57 PM
Just got a call back from him and he explained to me that there is no fluid loss because there was air in the clutch system that they had to bleed out so every time they have added fluid it has in fact still been too low and that's why they are confident that the fluid is not ending up in the transmission. I told him how I could possibly believe them since they apparently had to bleed this line 3 times to get the air completely out and every time they have told me the bike is fixed. He said he understands my concern but wants to assure me that the air was the only problem and it is now, this time, fixed for sure.
They are keeping the bike one more day to make sure it's really fixed this time and will call me tomorrow and return the bike once the service manager signs off on it.
:nixweiss:
I have always been a supporter of HD and have tried to counter balance the negativity surrounding the quality and service. But man right now I am doing all I can to not join the detractors.
Serenity now...serenity now...
Cam
Post by: RonandJanet on April 13, 2015, 01:40:17 PM
Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 01:42:14 PM
Keeping the bike in the dealer's service bay won't accomplish anything since the problem seems to occur after using the clutch during normal operation.
Tell him to put a couple hundred miles on it and then call you when it's fixed.
Post by: MrSurly on April 13, 2015, 01:44:59 PM
OR... Have they done this and we don't know?
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Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 01:49:08 PM
Seems the service at this particular establishment leaves much to be desired..or maybe like you posed they did look into it further and just don't communicate very well.
Post by: MrSurly on April 13, 2015, 01:58:53 PM
EDIT: I don't have my books here, but I wonder if the various manuals actually STATE the capacity of the clutch? That would be great information to have on hand. Right after you get the record of their services (and you can bet they charged the MOCO for the maximum allowable quantity each time). Hmmm...I wonder what the max is?
Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 02:05:28 PM
You know the conversion requires math right? Or at least the ability to use a computer to look it up....
Post by: cambo on April 13, 2015, 02:09:54 PM
Cam
Post by: MrSurly on April 13, 2015, 02:12:05 PM
EDIT: Please ask Tim how many years of experience he has as a wrench.
If you call, and do not give them a reference or case number, can you get to anyone OTHER than Tim?
Did you ask to speak to an engineer?
It is ridiculous that he can be a one-man buffer between the customer and the moco.
PLEASE call another dealer's service guy and tell him that your clutch is losing fluid and you don't see a leak; ask him where he thinks it might be going.
DON'T mention the current dealer or warranty or CS or anything. Just ask him for an opinion.
Post by: cambo on April 13, 2015, 02:24:53 PM
Actually recalling the whole conversation is really pissing me off big time. So I shall stop...
Serenity n...oh what's the use. :sauer005:
Were's my bottle of medicine formulated and prescribed by Dr. Jack Daniels?
Cam
Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 02:24:59 PM
In fact I'm going to stop by my dealer and ask a few questions on my way home from work....
Sorry but Tim sounds like a tool.....and not Tim the tool man Taylor.
Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 02:29:36 PM
Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 03:03:57 PM
1. The seal of the actuator
2. The O ring on between the engagement rod and gear box which may be damaged. If it were missing the fluid would just flow freely into the tranny.
3. Which actually related to number 2 is a burr on the engagement rod which has damaged the O ring causing a leak whenever the clutch is used.
It's just like the master cylinder for the brakes on any car....
Tell your dealer that all this can be checked by simply pulling the dam side cover and actuator assembly. Once they remove those assemblies the problem should become obvious.
They have definitely put more fluid into the system then it was designed to hold.
Or you could bring it to another dealer who is willing to investigate the problem and not just keep filling the thing with more fluid.
If you want to bring it to CT my dealer can take care of it. It's really not that complicated.
Post by: cambo on April 13, 2015, 03:17:03 PM
I may just get the bike back and open up the dang thing and look at it myself just to be sure. After all it is me and my wife's life and health we are talking about! :)
Cam
Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 03:27:21 PM
Post by: grc on April 13, 2015, 04:37:33 PM
After all this stupidity over a simple hydraulic system, does anyone still think I'm being too negative when I call out H-D for lousy customer service? Poor quality and this kind of disservice after the sale is exactly why I refuse to buy anything from H-D.
Jerry
Post by: phato1 on April 13, 2015, 09:16:52 PM
The problems getting the bike repaired falls squarely upon the dealership in question and the management and ownership should be doing more to address the concerns. Especially when it concerns someone's SAFETY. If the "tech" working on the bike is stumped they should be asking for guidance from the service manager and if the service manager can't provide the guidance required they should be in contact with HD tech support (they do have one of those departments, don't they??). After four,count 'em,four attempts to diagnose and repair the clutch nobody in either the dealership or at HD thought to look at the Illustrated Parts Breakdown to see if it was possible that the fluid was "disappearing" into the transmission? none of these folks thought "lets drain the quart of oil out of the transmission and 1)measure it 2) see if the clutch fluid has contaminated it"
I admit I'm not an expert in fluid dynamics but it seems to me that the Syn3/gear oil in the transmission would NOT want to mix well with the DOT fluid in the clutch assembly, therefore any cross contamination would be readily apparent.
Seals,gaskets and O-rings fail all the time. Sometimes from wear and tear which is normal, sometimes from faulty manufacturing of the component and sometimes somebody assembles thing wrong. I know I've messed up a few gasket and O-rings myself, stuff happens.
IMHO any decent shop would listen to a customers concerns and do what was needed to address them and not just top of a fluid reservoir on a critical control system REPEATEDLY and tell the customer it's just got air in the system, unless of course they have no clue as to how to properly bleed the system the FIRST time.
When I stopped in today it took the service department at my dealership less than 5 minutes to look up the parts breakdown and see that it IS possible for the fluids to mix - even though they admit to never seeing it happen on HD hydraulic clutch - YET.
So to answer your question Jerry, no your not being overly negative regarding HD's culpability with this and other problems some have experienced.
To be fair though there are some great dealerships out there that will do their best for their customers - the challenge is finding them. Iv'e got six dealers within an hour of my house.....only two of them will ever service my bike or sell me the parts I need, and that's by my choosing..
Post by: cambo on April 13, 2015, 10:17:54 PM
I guess I'm saying that I am being unreasonable expecting drones like Tim and Jaime to give a flip beyond what they have been told they have to do. As soon as I see my bikes as just a pile of mechanical parts and stop attaching any emotions to it their reaction to my problem will become much more acceptable. But then again if I look at my bikes as just a pile of mechanical parts I would have a real tough time justifying the decision to pay twice as much as a bike with the same features and a better engine like a Triumph Rocket 3 or a Honda Goldwing.
Wait!!! Did I just say a Honda Goldwing? Somebody shoot me now! BTW, please note that I did not mention BMW as an alternative! ;)
I filled out the customer satisfaction survey Harley emailed to me to day. I gave them 1's across the board, typed many, many lines of my interaction with Tim and Jaime and told them in no uncertain terms I am a very unhappy customer. Except for the question regarding how likely I am to recommend a Harley bike to friends and family: 8 out of 10. Really??? There. See what I mean? I deserve to be treated this way.
So the problem, ladies and gentlemen, is me and people like me.
Post by: Para Bellum on April 14, 2015, 02:21:32 AM
So the problem, ladies and gentlemen, is me and people like me.
Well, yes and no.
By yes, I mean all of us who still want to ride a Harley even after dealing with the insane idiocy of some of the dealers and the MoCo--and they qualify here for being unable to see how the slave cylinder can leak fluid.
By no, I mean that we pay big money for the bikes (especially the CVO group) and we are entitled to receive what we pay for: a bike that can be ridden regularly, and without fear that something as routine as a hydraulic clutch is going to kill us.
Maybe it's time to get the NHTSA involved for a safety issue that HD is ignoring. If there's one thing they do respond to, it's hits to the bottom line from fines and recalls.
Post by: cambo on April 14, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
I asked about what I was told about the problem, namely persistent air in the clutch system according to the dealership, and how this recall figures into the fix I was told they have applied to my bike, which supposedly had fixed the bike and I was going to get it back today. Blake told me that the recall involves air being introduced into the system. So I asked the obvious question: since they have bled the system 4 times and added fluid to the clutch, where as all this fluid gone? He said they popped the cover on the transmission and there was no clutch fluid in the transmission and I can rest assured my bike's transmission is healthy as can be.
I'm glad they allegedly checked the transmission but the mystery of what happened to the fluid is still bugging me. Maybe they flushed the transmission and will not admit to it to save face.
Anyhow, recall, repair kit, master cylinder, 6 day wait, ...
Cam
Post by: jpb on April 14, 2015, 01:24:22 PM
Update: Just got a call from the dealership. Harley just issued a recall for the master cylinder on 2015 bikes and is in the process of providing fix info along with a repair kit, which the dealer will not have until 5/6 days from now. So the bike stays at the dealership.
I asked about what I was told about the problem, namely persistent air in the clutch system according to the dealership, and how this recall figures into the fix I was told they have applied to my bike, which supposedly had fixed the bike and I was going to get it back today. Blake told me that the recall involves air being introduced into the system. So I asked the obvious question: since they have bled the system 4 times and added fluid to the clutch, where as all this fluid gone? He said they popped the cover on the transmission and there was no clutch fluid in the transmission and I can rest assured my bike's transmission is healthy as can be.
I'm glad they allegedly checked the transmission but the mystery of what happened to the fluid is still bugging me. Maybe they flushed the transmission and will not admit to it to save face.
Anyhow, recall, repair kit, master cylinder, 6 day wait, ...
Cam
They are still wrong. In order to introduce air into a full system you would have to displace fluid first. Total Bull $hit.
Get a new bike under the lemon law. Screw those jokers.
Post by: RonandJanet on April 14, 2015, 01:38:40 PM
They are still wrong. In order to introduce air into a full system you would have to displace fluid first. Total Bull $hit.
Get a new bike under the lemon law. Screw those jokers.
I agree with this. However, one point to consider is that they said it was topped off. That could be very little fluid and if they did not or (could not) bleed the system correctly they may have been taking as much fluid out as they put in during the process. Very odd situation and this would have to be a notification that goes out to everyone since this is a safety issue. Maybe the recall (and new knowledge) will help explain what was going on.
I would be so pi..ed by now if this was my new bike.
Post by: Brownie113 on April 14, 2015, 07:52:17 PM
Post by: phato1 on April 14, 2015, 08:44:26 PM
Update: Just got a call from the dealership. Harley just issued a recall for the master cylinder on 2015 bikes and is in the process of providing fix info along with a repair kit, which the dealer will not have until 5/6 days from now. So the bike stays at the dealership.
I asked about what I was told about the problem, namely persistent air in the clutch system according to the dealership, and how this recall figures into the fix I was told they have applied to my bike, which supposedly had fixed the bike and I was going to get it back today. Blake told me that the recall involves air being introduced into the system. So I asked the obvious question: since they have bled the system 4 times and added fluid to the clutch, where as all this fluid gone? He said they popped the cover on the transmission and there was no clutch fluid in the transmission and I can rest assured my bike's transmission is healthy as can be.
I'm glad they allegedly checked the transmission but the mystery of what happened to the fluid is still bugging me. Maybe they flushed the transmission and will not admit to it to save face.
Anyhow, recall, repair kit, master cylinder, 6 day wait, ...
Cam
AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH :furious2: In order to introduce air into the system you have to displace the liquid in there -- unless the person bleeding the system is so incompetent that they can't remove all the air in the lines after four tries. If you don't get all the air out of the system and you trap a whole bunch in the line then yes, it will eventually find it's way to the master cylinder since the captive air will "rise" to the highest point eventually. Then the master cylinder will be full of the air, but then the bottom of the system will be full of fluid. That being said after four fills of the master cylinder the system capacity (which is not in the manual, or at least I can't find it) would be reached - assuming you don't keep trapping more air by not bleeding it correctly...
I know, I know :beatdeadhorse:
Didn't HD have a recall concerning the return port in the clutch master cylinder? Is this the one the dealer is referring to or is there another one coming out?
As long as they document inspecting the transmission on the work order and the findings that there was no contamination... as they say CYA
Post by: cambo on April 14, 2015, 09:17:54 PM
Post by: cheeset202 on April 14, 2015, 09:51:50 PM
Post by: cheeset202 on April 14, 2015, 09:54:37 PM
Here is the description from Harley on recall 0159
Recall Description: On both original equipment and Harley-Davidson Parts & Accessories intended for these bike models, the hydraulic clutch system may develop a tear in the primary cup (seal) on the master cylinder piston.
Safety Risk Description: If the primary cup (seal) on the master cylinder piston develops a tear, then the system may lose the ability to maintain sufficient lift to keep the clutch disengaged. If this condition remains undetected, it could allow the motorcycle to “creep” forward from a stop, which could lead to a loss of control of the vehicle possibly causing a crash.
Remedy Description: Owners of the affected motorcycles will be asked to arrange service with an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer, who will confirm that the motorcycle or part is covered by this recall. If covered, the dealer will rebuild the clutch master cylinder using the recall kit provided. This service will be provided at no charge to the customer.
Post by: OBB on April 15, 2015, 06:07:46 AM
RECALL NOTICE:
NHTSA Recall Campaign Number: 15V-216Recall Date APR 14, 2015
Last UpdatedApr 14, 2015
Harley-Davidson has learned that the hydraulic clutch system equipped with master cylinder part numbers 36700056 and 36700049 on certain model year 2014 and 2015 Touring model motorcycles may exhibit a condition in which it may lose the ability to generate enough lift to disengage the clutch after being parked for an extended period.
Model
2015 Road Glide Special
Safety Risk
If this condition remains undetected it could lead to loss of control of the vehicle when started in gear or first shifted into gear after being parked for an extended period.
REMEDY
Owners of the affected motorcycles will be asked to arrange service with an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer, who will confirm that the motorcycle is covered by this recall. If covered, the dealer will flush the clutch system withthe recommended wash solution and rebuild the clutch master cylinder using the recall kit provided. This service will be provided at no charge to the customer.
We strongly urge you to take your motorcycle to your dealer to have the appropriate service performed as soon as possible. Should you choose to ride your motorcycle prior to this service, we urge you to be aware of this condition. Some product campaigns may have expired and you may have to pay for the service. Please see your local Harley-Davidson dealer for further details.
Post by: cambo on April 15, 2015, 07:19:33 AM
This is directed to the RGS but I'd have the part numbers checked.Ding ding ding - We have a winner!!!
RECALL NOTICE:
NHTSA Recall Campaign Number: 15V-216Recall Date APR 14, 2015
Last UpdatedApr 14, 2015
Harley-Davidson has learned that the hydraulic clutch system equipped with master cylinder part numbers 36700056 and 36700049 on certain model year 2014 and 2015 Touring model motorcycles may exhibit a condition in which it may lose the ability to generate enough lift to disengage the clutch after being parked for an extended period.
Model
2015 Road Glide Special
Safety Risk
If this condition remains undetected it could lead to loss of control of the vehicle when started in gear or first shifted into gear after being parked for an extended period.
REMEDY
Owners of the affected motorcycles will be asked to arrange service with an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer, who will confirm that the motorcycle is covered by this recall. If covered, the dealer will flush the clutch system withthe recommended wash solution and rebuild the clutch master cylinder using the recall kit provided. This service will be provided at no charge to the customer.
We strongly urge you to take your motorcycle to your dealer to have the appropriate service performed as soon as possible. Should you choose to ride your motorcycle prior to this service, we urge you to be aware of this condition. Some product campaigns may have expired and you may have to pay for the service. Please see your local Harley-Davidson dealer for further details.
The problem manifested itself after I had the bike sitting in the garage December-February. But it was never 'right' from day one compared to my BO or other bikes as far as the clutch. Also the dealer said that this recall was brand spanking new and the date on the above notice is for yesterday.
Cam
Post by: grc on April 15, 2015, 08:47:20 AM
Ding ding ding - We have a winner!!!
The problem manifested itself after I had the bike sitting in the garage December-February. But it was never 'right' from day one compared to my BO or other bikes as far as the clutch. Also the dealer said that this recall was brand spanking new and the date on the above notice is for yesterday.
Cam
They have had more than one recall so far on the hydraulic clutch master cylinders cam. This reads like the first one that came out, before they then followed up with another because the first "fix" wasn't a good fix.
Btw, the problem mentioned in the recall wouldn't cause you to lose fluid, it just basically means the seals in the M/C are allowing fluid to bypass and therefore not provide full pressure to the actuator to release the clutch. So the story you got from the aces at the dealership the first couple trips was still BS.
Jerry
Post by: RonandJanet on April 15, 2015, 09:09:06 AM
Post by: cambo on April 15, 2015, 09:24:49 AM
They have had more than one recall so far on the hydraulic clutch master cylinders cam. This reads like the first one that came out, before they then followed up with another because the first "fix" wasn't a good fix.
Btw, the problem mentioned in the recall wouldn't cause you to lose fluid, it just basically means the seals in the M/C are allowing fluid to bypass and therefore not provide full pressure to the actuator to release the clutch. So the story you got from the aces at the dealership the first couple trips was still BS.
Jerry
Jerry,
A good friend and forum member (and a new BFF), texted me the other day and meant to say 'how's the bagger?'. Of course his iPhone, being the helpful assistant that it is autocorrected it to say 'how's the nagger?', which still applied. :) I have been nagging, frankly. So I told him I'm doing fine and thanked him for his concern AND his candor! ;)
But allow me to nag some more here: this recall describes 'exactly' what I reported to them multiple times: to the sales guy, his manager, the service writer, the service manager, the senior tech number one, the service writer number 2, the senior tech number two, HD customer rep number one (Jaime) and HD customer rep number two (Tim). They totally disregarded my description of the problem and kept bleeding the line and adding fluid.
Now they have a recall for the problem and I am not expecting an apology. But I would hope I have enough credibility for them to have checked the transmission as they stated to see what happened to all that fluid. Also since they want the whole system to be flushed using a 'special' solution, I assume there is some type of contamination that needs to be cleaned up.
Post by: Chains on April 15, 2015, 09:46:56 AM
http://www.ibtimes.com/harley-davidson-recall-2013-2014-touring-motorcycles-recalled-do-not-ride-faulty-hydraulic-clutch
Post by: T-Roy on April 15, 2015, 11:13:31 AM
Post by: zigscvobo on April 15, 2015, 11:38:02 AM
Post by: T-Roy on April 15, 2015, 12:51:11 PM
Post by: cambo on April 15, 2015, 02:26:17 PM
Cam, will this end up happening to our Breakout?
I don't think so. The recall references specific part numbers and mentions touring models as being affected.
Post by: grc on April 15, 2015, 02:43:51 PM
The first recall for this problem was issued in October of 2013, and yes it did include the 2014 CVO Breakout built between May 3 and Oct. 14 of 2013. The following year another recall was issued for ALL Touring models from the 2014 model year, I believe that one was released in September of 2014. And now of course we have recall number three.
If you have a question about whether or not your bike is included in a recall, you can input your VIN on the Harley website and get that information. You can do the same thing on the NHTSA site as well, but there is a lag and recently announced recalls may not show up.
https://vinrcl.safercar.gov/vin/
Jerry
Post by: zigscvobo on April 15, 2015, 02:49:01 PM
Post by: T-Roy on April 15, 2015, 02:52:37 PM
Post by: grc on April 15, 2015, 03:02:04 PM
I got my BO in Dec of 13. First mistake in Va. Dont buy a bike in Dec, you will have to pay personal property tax for that year. 10years in Fl. and came back to Va. Wow was I spoiled down there. I will have to put my vin on the HD site. Do I just go to HD.com?
https://www.harley-davidson.com/content/h-d/en_US/home/owners/maintain-your-bike/service-recalls.html
Jerry
Post by: zigscvobo on April 15, 2015, 03:50:08 PM
Post by: jpb on April 16, 2015, 08:45:59 AM
They have had more than one recall so far on the hydraulic clutch master cylinders cam. This reads like the first one that came out, before they then followed up with another because the first "fix" wasn't a good fix.
Btw, the problem mentioned in the recall wouldn't cause you to lose fluid, it just basically means the seals in the M/C are allowing fluid to bypass and therefore not provide full pressure to the actuator to release the clutch. So the story you got from the aces at the dealership the first couple trips was still BS.
Jerry
Right on and like I said BS
Post by: jpb on April 16, 2015, 09:14:37 AM
Jerry is right on with his explanation. The tear in the piston of the master cylinder as described in the recall will not have any influence on the fluid disappearing from the master cylinder. The fluid will only bypass the torn piston and generate little, if any, lifting of the pressure plate. This condition will also not introduce any air into the system so long as there is ample fluid in the master cylinder and the porting is not exposed to air. However it is good to get this known recall issue resolved under the recall promotion even if it doesn't directly address his current issue with the clutch.
I am sure it is possible, but I have yet to see any hydraulic system become self bleeding by way of the air working it's way up the lines ending up in the master cylinder reservoir. If there was any excessive air in the system the moco tech would have not have been able to even test ride the bike on a single of the many attempts they said it was fixed and returned to Cam.
Like I said I hope I am very wrong. I still hold out that the slave is leaking into the tranny. In the end I think this is what will need to be replaced. I believe the dealer at this point will also change the slave out but won't admit it in order to save face. lol
Post by: GMR-PERFORMANCE on April 17, 2015, 08:56:50 AM
I am happy to hear that you are able to get it taken care of. That very same bearing is used in the other top brand after market clutch as well.. so Nothing more than have a defective bearing.. Please let me know if there is any thing else that you need assistance with
Post by: FlaHeatWave on April 17, 2015, 05:42:13 PM
Roy, I think Hammond Harley is great for diagnosing / fixing your Aftermarket Clutch issues.
Cam, 'can feel your frustration, (I would have probably "lost it" long ago!) Your issue (and maybe a few others) might have spawned the most recent recall? 'Really hope it solves your problems!
Jerry, I agree with you, some of the HD techs, I wouldn't let work on my bicycle but, (there's always a "but" with me these days. LOL at self). Like yourself, I have direct (Tech) experience with OEMs and 'have been an Independent as well (Outboard Motors). With OE, we relied more on the Manufacturer for Diagnostic Procedures and Parts Replacement, if the OEM didn't have the proper Parts or Procedures, life could be difficult for us (we hated being relegated to "educated parts changers"~ sometimes that's all we could do!) and The Customer, then some kind of Recall / TSB would usually be initiated (To my knowledge there is no OEM that doesn't operate in this manner ~ The Customer is a guinea pig). As my knowledge progressed, and I was attending the OEM (OMC & Mercury) "Top Gun" Schools, we were placed in the Test Cells with the Engineers to assist with writing Procedures on the soon to be launched Engine Programs, it made sense to me, that the OEMs gave us credit for knowing what worked in the real world. Then as an Independent with a lot of time in the saddle (like Steve) we could pretty much Diagnose over the phone and be correct... We used to bitch (brag) about having to "fix the $hit that the OEMs should have designed properly in the first place" or (Automotive / Inboard/Outboards) "I'd like to get the engineers by the nuts, and tell them, You come work on this POS!"
I'm really surprised that The MoCo hasn't had more issues with the Rushmores, we'll see as the time / miles progress...
Post by: T-Roy on April 17, 2015, 09:33:23 PM
Post by: cambo on April 22, 2015, 01:56:51 PM
Today since I did not hear anything, which is normal with this dealer to be honest, I called the service department. I was told they are waiting for the recall kits, expecting to receive it by tomorrow afternoon, and my bike should be ready, actually he did not tell me when it will be ready, just that they are doing everything they can to get the bike fixed as fast as possible.
So I asked about what I was told yesterday about my bike being fixed as we spoke. Long story short, he talked for a couple of minutes and I did not get any additional info as to what I was told yesterday, and when I can get my bike back. In fact I have no idea how he used a couple of minutes of air time and told me absolutely nothing other than they are doing all they can to get my bike back to me. :nixweiss:
Cam
Post by: MrSurly on April 22, 2015, 02:10:50 PM
I salute your resolve, really, Cam.
Did you get the name of the guy who lied to you yesterday?
Did you get the name of the guy who's lying to you today?
I would be taking names and making notes and confronting. But that's just me.
I truly hope they get your bike fixed properly and soon.
Carry on.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: cambo on April 22, 2015, 02:56:40 PM
Called back to talk to Scott, the sales manager, he was with a customer. Asked to talk to the owner Ken, his off day today. Asked for Morgan, the sales guy who sold me the bike, off today as well. I was told Scott will call me back, he has not so far.
Called HD customer service (Keith), they told me the parts for the recall was delivered to the dealership two days ago and there no 'second stage' parts for the recall and they have no idea what the dealership was talking about. I told Keith I just want my money back.
He told me he will call the dealership right now and call me back ASAP to let me know what's going on.
:sauer005:
Cam
Post by: MrSurly on April 22, 2015, 03:25:22 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Jswerve on April 22, 2015, 03:28:20 PM
Post by: cambo on April 22, 2015, 03:54:58 PM
I thanked him first of all for being the first harley person to call me back during this ordeal, Jamie and Tim NEVER did and I had to call them back to see if anything had been done. Then I told him about some inaccuracies regrading what the dealer had told him. Then I said I'm not smart enough to walk away from Harley as I would have done with other brands because love is blind but I'm beginning to get at least part of my vision back so...
The saga continues. More to come tomorrow, I'm sure.
Cam
:bigcry:
Post by: moscooter on April 22, 2015, 06:59:15 PM
"Heard back from Harley (but not the dealership) and talked to Keith."
This gives the overall appearance of a need for a business (Harley in this case) to avert an ever-growing discussion and complaint with the clutch on their newest models. It demonstrates the power and demonstrable "negative" press that a forum like this one can bring to bear. :drink:
I hope those effected get the satisfactory results they deserve. ::)
Post by: MrSurly on April 22, 2015, 07:15:42 PM
Why would they have requested the slave after swearing that it was never needed.
Why would they request the slave and not tell the customer?
Why would the MoCo approve the slave if it isn't suspect?
If Blake wanted to be the only one talking to Cam, that would simple to accomplish. He could CALL Cam.... And he would have an exclusive
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: phato1 on April 22, 2015, 08:59:49 PM
Heard back from Harley (but not the dealership) and talked to Keith. He says the dealer has asked for and been given authorization for a complete replacement of the clutch system top to bottom. The parts are shipped to the dealership and will be there tomorrow. The dealership will replace the entire system and call me tomorrow to let me know the bike is ready to be picked up. He said Blake at the dealership wants to be the only person to talk to me so there is no confusion. I told him it's a little too late for that.
I thanked him first of all for being the first harley person to call me back during this ordeal, Jamie and Tim NEVER did and I had to call them back to see if anything had been done. Then I told him about some inaccuracies regrading what the dealer had told him. Then I said I'm not smart enough to walk away from Harley as I would have done with other brands because love is blind but I'm beginning to get at least part of my vision back so...
The saga continues. More to come tomorrow, I'm sure.
Cam
:bigcry:
I'm with MrSurly on this one Cam.
Unfortunately the dealership seems to have done everything it could to lose a customer and the first TWO reps at HD customer service did nothing to assist you in your endeavor to have the bike repaired correctly...
I sincerely hope that they get it fixed correctly this time..
I trust that you have consulted an attorney regarding your rights under the Lemon Law and possibly any other state statutes. What are you up to 4 or 5 trips to the dealer, the latest of which has resulted in your loss of use of the vehicle for over two weeks? I feel that the LEAST these people owe you is a sincere apology for the attitude you've been shown. The time for niceties has long since passed -- unfortunate really
Post by: cheeset202 on April 22, 2015, 09:50:05 PM
Post by: RonandJanet on April 23, 2015, 12:26:52 PM
I'm with MrSurly on this one Cam.
Unfortunately the dealership seems to have done everything it could to lose a customer and the first TWO reps at HD customer service did nothing to assist you in your endeavor to have the bike repaired correctly...
I sincerely hope that they get it fixed correctly this time..
I trust that you have consulted an attorney regarding your rights under the Lemon Law and possibly any other state statutes. What are you up to 4 or 5 trips to the dealer, the latest of which has resulted in your loss of use of the vehicle for over two weeks? I feel that the LEAST these people owe you is a sincere apology for the attitude you've been shown. The time for niceties has long since passed -- unfortunate really
X2
Post by: jpb on April 23, 2015, 02:07:20 PM
Where is this dealership.......I want to make sure I never darken their doorstep! Dude (Cam) you have the patience of a saint, if this were me they would have heard words that would make Eddie Murphy blush.
Dealership is Quantico. To make matters worse it is a Harley Dealership owned by an auto dealership. We all know two wrongs like this can never make a right. Right!
Link about purchase by auto dealership.
http://performancebrokerageservices.com/performance-brokerage-facilitates-sale-east-coast-harley-davidson-dumfries-virginia/
http://www.harleydavidsonofquantico.com/
Post by: jpb on April 23, 2015, 02:17:26 PM
"Word has been going around that the owner of East Coast Harley in Dumfries, VA Kurt has been charged with impersonating a police officer and multi other changes this pass Rolling Tunder. He took one of the Fairfax County Police Motorcycle which the bike was in his service department for repairs and service.The police bike was later seen on May 29, 2011 by a Fairfax Police Officer parked in DC on Constitution AVE. The officer know the officer in which the bike belong to and called him. A wrecker was called, but by the time the wrecker got there, Kurt was gone with the police bike.
If this is true Kurt is finally getting his!
He has been doing this for years, every year taking a police bike from his service department and riding it for Rolling Thunder. Wearing a police helmet and riding with the lights on.."
Post by: cambo on April 23, 2015, 02:21:10 PM
Startdate 3028.2 (!)
Contacted the dealership as instructed by HD and talked to Blake. He checked to see if parts had arrived and the answer was affirmative. He then told me that they will install the parts ASAP but asked me if I would let them hang on to the bike until next Wednesday to make sure the issues is resolved. I told him why not. So no bagger at least until next Wednesday.
Cam
Post by: cambo on April 23, 2015, 02:25:54 PM
Just found this on another forum. Don't know if its true but if it is it speaks volumes on honesty!
"Word has been going around that the owner of East Coast Harley in Dumfries, VA Kurt has been charged with impersonating a police officer and multi other changes this pass Rolling Tunder. He took one of the Fairfax County Police Motorcycle which the bike was in his service department for repairs and service.The police bike was later seen on May 29, 2011 by a Fairfax Police Officer parked in DC on Constitution AVE. The officer know the officer in which the bike belong to and called him. A wrecker was called, but by the time the wrecker got there, Kurt was gone with the police bike.
If this is true Kurt is finally getting his!
He has been doing this for years, every year taking a police bike from his service department and riding it for Rolling Thunder. Wearing a police helmet and riding with the lights on.."
Kurt was the previous owner who ran the dealership to the ground and sold it to the current owner. The current owner has a number of auto dealerships in the area and this was his first HD dealership.
Post by: jpb on April 23, 2015, 02:52:10 PM
Kurt was the previous owner who ran the dealership to the ground and sold it to the current owner. The current owner has a number of auto dealerships in the area and this was his first HD dealership.
Who seems to be carrying on the tradition of it's previous owner. lol
Post by: cheeset202 on April 23, 2015, 09:51:02 PM
Post by: cambo on April 24, 2015, 03:13:45 PM
Harley-Davidson is recalling nearly 46,000 motorcycles in the U.S. because they could stay in gear due to clutches that won't fully disengage.
The recall covers certain Electra Glide, Ultra Limited, Police Electra Glide, Street Glide, Road Glide and Road King models from the 2014 and 2015 model years.
Harley says in documents that gas bubbles can cause the clutch master cylinder to lose its ability to fully disengage the clutch, especially if the bike has been parked for a long time. This could cause a rider to lose control of the motorcycle if it's started in gear.
Read MoreGM issues new recall affecting nearly 84,000 vehicles
The problem was found through customer complaints. Harley reported 27 crashes and four minor injuries. (Tweet This)
Dealers will flush the clutch and rebuild the master cylinder. The recall was to start April 23.
:'(
I almost became crash umber 28 and potentially injury number 5. I survived the experience because I'm in the habit of applying the front brake when I shift into the first gear otherwise the the way the bike slammed into first I would have been thrown off of it.
Cam
Post by: sadunbar on April 24, 2015, 03:19:27 PM
"Harley says in documents that gas bubbles can cause the clutch master cylinder to lose its ability to fully disengage the clutch."
Pretty odd description of the problem...
Post by: grc on April 24, 2015, 03:23:02 PM
It's amazing that since making hydraulic clutches standard, something the rest of the industry did long ago, H-D can't seem to get such a simple system right. As I've mentioned before, they don't start from scratch and actually invent anything, they just apply existing and often old tech to their new bikes. Doesn't require a group of rocket scientists, so why do they always seem to have major problems?
Jerry
Post by: RonandJanet on April 24, 2015, 03:33:38 PM
Manufacturer: Harley-Davidson Motor Company
SUMMARY:
Harley-Davidson Motor Company (Harley-Davidson) is recalling certain model year 2014-2015 Electra Glide Ultra Classic (FLHTCU), Electra Glide Ultra Classic - Twin Cooled (FLHTCU TC), Ultra Limited (FLHTK), Police Electra Glide (FLHTP), Street Glide (FLHX), Street Glide Special (FLHXS), CVO Street Glide (FLHXSE), 2015 Electra Glide Ultra Classic Low (FLHTCUL), Ultra Limited Low (FLHTKL), Electra Glide Ultra Classic Low - Twin Cooled (FLHTCUL TC), Road Glide Special (FLTRXS), Road Glide (FLTRX), and 2014 CVO Road King (FLHRSE) motorcycles manufactured April 28, 2014, to October 24, 2014. In the affected motorcycles, the clutch master cylinder may lose the ability to generate enough lift to disengage the clutch, especially if the motorcycle has been parked for an extended period of time.
CONSEQUENCE:
When the engine is running and the motorcycle is in gear, if the clutch cannot be fully disengaged, the motorcycle may move unexpectedly, increasing the risk of a crash.
REMEDY:
Harley-Davidson will notify owners, and dealers will flush the clutch system and rebuild the clutch master cylinder, free of charge. The recall is expected to begin April 23, 2015. Owners may contact Harley-Davidson customer service at 1-800-258-2464. Harley-Davidson's number for this recall is 0165.
Post by: jpb on April 24, 2015, 03:47:07 PM
Some folks on this site put an insulation sock or sleeve over the line to keep things in order??
Post by: MrSurly on April 24, 2015, 05:05:46 PM
They've found some reason to replace/rebuild the master cylinder and the fluid.
They've used this description but it doesn't matter.
Who knows? It might be that they've just discovered that they used the wrong fluid or the wrong seal material or a wrong method on install.
What really matters is if their action will fix the problem or not.
It certainly doesn't "fit" exactly with what Cam was told was done to his bike.
But it might be that the recall procedure actually fixes his clutch.
If it does, then we can be happy for Cam that it's fixed and we will also know that the dealer hasn't been completely accurate in the description of his "repairs" to this point.
I'm glad the MoCo has at least publically admitted there is an issue with the clutch and now the dealers can stop pretending there's nothing wrong.
This is a WIN for Cam and for us all.
Post by: Fired00d on April 24, 2015, 05:14:23 PM
Call it what it is: a cover story.:beadyeyes2: :annoyed: :smartass2: :wiseguy: This just validates their statement "they all do this/that". :sauer005:
They've found some reason to replace/rebuild the master cylinder and the fluid.
They've used this description but it doesn't matter.
Who knows? It might be that they've just discovered that they used the wrong fluid or the wrong seal material or a wrong method on install.
What really matters is if their action will fix the problem or not.
It certainly doesn't "fit" exactly with what Cam was told was done to his bike.
But it might be that the recall procedure actually fixes his clutch.
If it does, then we can be happy for Cam that it's fixed and we will also know that the dealer hasn't been completely accurate in the description of his "repairs" to this point.
I'm glad the MoCo has at least publically admitted there is an issue with the clutch and now the dealers can stop pretending there's nothing wrong.
This is a WIN for Cam and for us all.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Post by: skreminegul07 on April 24, 2015, 07:05:11 PM
This is new
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-harley-davidson-recall-20150424-story.html
It is on Foxnews as well.
Now with the info on manafacturing date, it looks like the new recall will be done in addition to the last recall 159. I just had that done two weeks ago! DOH!
Post by: T-Roy on April 24, 2015, 10:30:18 PM
Post by: rbaker on April 25, 2015, 12:39:00 AM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/harley-recalls-nearly-46000-motorcycles/ar-AAbD34r (http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/harley-recalls-nearly-46000-motorcycles/ar-AAbD34r)
Post by: Phantom309 on April 25, 2015, 01:06:16 AM
Post by: vinver on April 25, 2015, 03:28:05 AM
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Post by: cambo on April 25, 2015, 08:13:10 AM
Not to sound like a smart ass, but isn't this old news? I had mine done last summer after HD mailed the recall out. Or is this already a NEW recall for last year's recall??
It's not old news unfortunately. It certainly may sound like deja vu all over again, but this one was issued 11 days ago on April 14th. Ask me how I know! :bigcry:
Cam
Post by: grc on April 25, 2015, 08:40:56 AM
Not to sound like a smart ass, but isn't this old news? I had mine done last summer after HD mailed the recall out. Or is this already a NEW recall for last year's recall??
This is recall #3 (so far), apparently for the same problem and a good indicator of Harley's inability to contain and fix a problem the first (or second) time. Whatever they changed when they made hydraulic clutches standard on all the bikes in 2014 obviously wasn't done right, and their attempts to fix it also weren't done right.
Jerry
Post by: Royalroadie on April 25, 2015, 08:42:56 AM
Post by: grc on April 25, 2015, 08:50:18 AM
Are any of the 2012 2013 in the recall. We had that clutch system on ours. The regular models where still us ing a cabled clutch system.
No, the recalls involve 2014 and 2015 models. The hydraulic clutch M/C in the 2014/15 CVO's and standard bikes isn't the same as the 2013 and earlier CVO's.
Jerry
Post by: skreminegul07 on April 25, 2015, 09:02:54 AM
Why need a flush?
Phil
Post by: cambo on April 25, 2015, 09:20:09 AM
What's crazy is I had last years recall (159) done on 4/15/2015 and on 4/14/2015 they issue recall 165. What does my bike have? Do I need another? Doing a flush and rebuild and bubbles sounds like DOT 5 fluid was in there by mistake. DOT5 is tough to bleed with regard to bubbles.
Why need a flush?
Phil
That would explain why the dealership kept bleeding the clutch line and thinking they fixed the problem.Also the flush means whatever was put in there has to be cleaned out completely.
BTW, the dealer called me yesterday and told me they have replaced all the parts on my bike and it's working perfectly. They are going to let it sit until Tuesday, go for a test ride, and if all goes well, deliver the bike to me on Wednesday. Which means I'll be going to Ocean city next Friday on the bagger with GOPRO recording the ride. :cucumber: :cucumber:
Cam
Post by: skreminegul07 on April 25, 2015, 09:44:18 AM
My dealer is going to call me back to let me know if my recall fix needs to be fixed again.
This opened old wounds.
Can I go back to a clutch cable?
Post by: jpb on April 25, 2015, 10:54:24 AM
Harley-Davidson is recalling multiple 2014 and 2015 touring models because of a clutch problem. The recall affects 45,901 motorcycles from the following models:
2014 CVO Road King
2014-2015 Electra Glide Ultra Classic
2014-2015 Ultra Limited
2014-2015 Street Glide
2014-2015 Street Glide Special
2014-2015 CVO Street Glide
2015 Electra Glide Ultra Classic Low
2015 Ultra Limited Low
2015 Road Glide Special
2015 Road Glide
The affected motorcycles have black-painted clutch master cylinders. Chrome master cylinders and those purchased from Harley-Davidson’s Parts & Accessories are not included in the recall.
According to documents released by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a chemical reaction in the clutch system may generate gas bubbles that can prevent the clutch from disengaging after the motorcycle has been parked for an extended period. Customers may notice a large amount of free play in the clutch lever when this occurs.
Harley-Davidson began investigating the issue in October 2014 after receiving eight warranty claims and two customer complaints about the clutch master cylinder. Harley-Davidson and its part supplier inspected the affected master cylinders and found evidence of gas generation in the DOT4 fluid. By January 2015, Harley-Davidson had received 15 reported incidents with two minor injuries.
An external chemist was called in to help with the investigation while Harley-Davidson contacted more customers for more information. An updated search found 313 warranty claims, 31 customer complaints and 27 accidents resulting in four minor injuries.
Harley-Davidson dealers will inspect recalled vehicles and, if necessary, flush the clutch system and rebuild the clutch master cylinder, replacing it if it shows signs of corrosion.
Sent from my iPhone
Post by: cambo on April 25, 2015, 11:13:55 AM
A little more detail in this recall description
Harley-Davidson is recalling multiple 2014 and 2015 touring models because of a clutch problem. The recall affects 45,901 motorcycles from the following models:
The affected motorcycles have black-painted clutch master cylinders. Chrome master cylinders and those purchased from Harley-Davidson’s Parts & Accessories are not included in the recall.
Now I have a valid reason when my wife asks me why I waste so much money on chrome 'everything'. "Honey, it's a documented fact that chrome parts are safer than black-painted parts". :D
Cam
Post by: skreminegul07 on April 25, 2015, 12:00:55 PM
A little more detail in this recall descriptionThanks for that info. It begs more questions, what are they changing that was causing the chemical reaction? Do we flush every spring or move to a warmer climate where we don't have to store the bike.
Harley-Davidson is recalling multiple 2014 and 2015 touring models because of a clutch problem. The recall affects 45,901 motorcycles from the following models:
2014 CVO Road King
2014-2015 Electra Glide Ultra Classic
2014-2015 Ultra Limited
2014-2015 Street Glide
2014-2015 Street Glide Special
2014-2015 CVO Street Glide
2015 Electra Glide Ultra Classic Low
2015 Ultra Limited Low
2015 Road Glide Special
2015 Road Glide
The affected motorcycles have black-painted clutch master cylinders. Chrome master cylinders and those purchased from Harley-Davidson’s Parts & Accessories are not included in the recall.
According to documents released by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a chemical reaction in the clutch system may generate gas bubbles that can prevent the clutch from disengaging after the motorcycle has been parked for an extended period. Customers may notice a large amount of free play in the clutch lever when this occurs.
Harley-Davidson began investigating the issue in October 2014 after receiving eight warranty claims and two customer complaints about the clutch master cylinder. Harley-Davidson and its part supplier inspected the affected master cylinders and found evidence of gas generation in the DOT4 fluid. By January 2015, Harley-Davidson had received 15 reported incidents with two minor injuries.
An external chemist was called in to help with the investigation while Harley-Davidson contacted more customers for more information. An updated search found 313 warranty claims, 31 customer complaints and 27 accidents resulting in four minor injuries.
Harley-Davidson dealers will inspect recalled vehicles and, if necessary, flush the clutch system and rebuild the clutch master cylinder, replacing it if it shows signs of corrosion.
Sent from my iPhone
BTW, my dealer said my bike was not affected.
Post by: skreminegul07 on April 25, 2015, 12:02:35 PM
Phil
Post by: sadunbar on April 25, 2015, 12:47:04 PM
"a chemical reaction in the clutch system may generate gas bubbles"
Very curious as to what the "fix" is and what was changed from the historic MOCO hydraulic clutch system to cause the current problem...
Post by: MrSurly on April 25, 2015, 01:59:33 PM
Harley contracted with a vendor to supply the new CMC to be used for all the new non-chromed applications.
A new material (or a minor variation of the old material) was used in the CMC soft parts and this new material has been surprisingly found to chemically react with the Dot-4 fluid and generate gas bubbles.
So the fix would be to replace the CMC internals with a different (proven) material AND get rid of any fluid previously in the system as it would be contaminated and possibly prone to react further.
It DOES make sense and would explain Cam's bike's symptoms.
Did Harley specify this new material, or did the vendor make the decision? We don't know, but it's the MoCo's problem no matter which.
And the problem of all the Beta testers like Cam.
EDITED TO ADD:
This is a perfect example of the type of problem that DOES require a recall.... It's a higher-level issue that requires higher-level detective work to solve (and time and money). Dealers don't have chemists on staff to ferret out this type of problem and frankly, all of us (including myself) are wrong with our assessment of slave cylinder leakage. (Mostly due to dealer mis-info)
Chemically generated gassing is a thing, and none of us would have been quick to sort this out, either. Until we installed totally different components AND flushed the fluid, we would all be doing a lot of head scratching.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: jpb on April 25, 2015, 03:03:42 PM
I can only guess since the chrome parts are immuned the fluid and or combination of parts must be reacting with the unchromed unplated bare aluminum parts.
Many many question come to mind?
Post by: jpb on April 25, 2015, 03:37:11 PM
Post by: cambo on April 25, 2015, 05:42:44 PM
Now that I have pondered Cam's statement over a few more tall beers I have concluded that he is absolutely correct in his statement that Chrome parts are safer. Hats off to all Chromosapians! Long live chrome.Safety first! ;)
Post by: MrSurly on April 25, 2015, 09:09:25 PM
We (me too) all assumed based our experience that unexplained air meant that there had to be a leak.
The gassing explanation (if true) would absolutely explain the unexplained air in the system.
As any bubbles would form in the fluid they would displace their *tiny* volume by pushing that tiny bit of fluid into the CMC reservoir, but the total amount would have to be very very tiny. Entrained bubbles totaling a tenth of an ounce would be enough to wreak havoc on a system this small.
Yes, I'm buying it as plausible, if unproven.
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Post by: jpb on April 25, 2015, 09:36:37 PM
Gas bubbles take up space. They will displace fluid. If the bubbles were not dissipating on their own the master cylinder would be even fuller to the point it would expel fluid out of the master cylinder cover. Since none was seen at any time on the floor or anywhere for that matter it stands to reason that it likely it drained itself into the transmission via a defective piston seal on the actuator.
While I completely agree that the recall needs to be performed on his bike to eliminate this gassing potential I still feel it does not directly address his missing and disappearing fluid on multiple occasions. The recall scope will however reach out and replace the actuator by default and hopefully it is finally fixed for good.
We will just have to agree to disagree.
Post by: MrSurly on April 25, 2015, 09:51:45 PM
It is apparent that you have information from Cam that I don't and that information does present a different scenario. I'm not going to re-read all these posts to verify but I don't recall the part about a dry CMC.
I agree that if it has been dry, then yes, the fluid went *somewhere* and the trans as I stated way back is where to look.
Since from the beginning of this saga we've not even managed to get *anyone* to check the trans fluid and report back, I'm now surprised to hear that we have a first hand report on the CMC.
The bike definitely needs to be fixed and given the crap they've put Cam through, I would find it just implausible to let it out the door withOUT replacing the actuator assy even if the dealer had to eat it just to be sure.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: cambo on April 25, 2015, 11:20:21 PM
We have zero disagreement. I don't recall it being stated here that the CMC was dry, only that "the dealer said it had air in it again" .The first time they fixed the bike and I went to pick it up the clutch was still not working. So they took it back and checked the fluid and that's when the mechanic told me it was 'bone dry'. He suggested applying a repair kit :nixweiss: to the master cylinder, bled the line, test rode it around the block and I was on my way, only to have the same problem the following day.
It is apparent that you have information from Cam that I don't and that information does present a different scenario. I'm not going to re-read all these posts to verify but I don't recall the part about a dry CMC.
I agree that if it has been dry, then yes, the fluid went *somewhere* and the trans as I stated way back is where to look.
Since from the beginning of this saga we've not even managed to get *anyone* to check the trans fluid and report back, I'm now surprised to hear that we have a first hand report on the CMC.
The bike definitely needs to be fixed and given the crap they've put Cam through, I would find it just implausible to let it out the door withOUT replacing the actuator assy even if the dealer had to eat it just to be sure.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
According to the dealer they applied the recall remedy to my bike this past Monday but then they reached out to HD and got authorization to not just do the recall but to replace the entire system because the problem had been more pervasive than the recall (they did no elaborate as to the extent). HD UPSed the parts and they installed them Tuesday, tested the bike and it worked perfectly. They wanted to keep the bike until next Tuesday to let it just sit and then ride it again. If all goes well I get it back next Wednesday.
Post by: Phantom309 on April 26, 2015, 05:12:26 AM
It's not old news unfortunately. It certainly may sound like deja vu all over again, but this one was issued 11 days ago on April 14th. Ask me how I know! :bigcry:
Cam
After reading your whole saga Cam all I can say is you are a trooper. Good luck when you pick it up (hopefully for the LAST time). I called one of the local stealers today and was told mine is ok ... I also punched mine in to HD and to the NHTSA (thanks for the link Jerry) in case the guy was BSing me. All that came up for mine is the possible pinched brake hose under the tank which I forgot about. I was gonna pull the tank last night and look at that until I remembered there's 6 gal of fuel in it, so that will wait til I run the tank down. That recall can stay open for all I care cause I'm not letting them mess with it unless I find a hose or hoses badly damaged that would need replaced ... hopefully I can just secure them be ok. My clutch master recall was closed from last year and the most recent one wasn't showing for mine. I do need to replace the gasket from the idiot who did it, gasket is squished out of place a tad from over-tightening the screws for the cover ... very slight seepage, but not dripping. Just goes to show nothing is done right unless you diy.
Post by: sadunbar on April 26, 2015, 08:13:22 AM
After reading your whole saga Cam all I can say is you are a trooper. Good luck when you pick it up (hopefully for the LAST time). I called one of the local stealers today and was told mine is ok ... I also punched mine in to HD and to the NHTSA (thanks for the link Jerry) in case the guy was BSing me. All that came up for mine is the possible pinched brake hose under the tank which I forgot about. I was gonna pull the tank last night and look at that until I remembered there's 6 gal of fuel in it, so that will wait til I run the tank down. That recall can stay open for all I care cause I'm not letting them mess with it unless I find a hose or hoses badly damaged that would need replaced ... hopefully I can just secure them be ok. My clutch master recall was closed from last year and the most recent one wasn't showing for mine. I do need to replace the gasket from the idiot who did it, gasket is squished out of place a tad from over-tightening the screws for the cover ... very slight seepage, but not dripping. Just goes to show nothing is done right unless you diy.
:2vrolijk_21: Isn't that the truth... :(
Post by: MrSurly on April 26, 2015, 10:26:47 PM
1.) have them verify that they drained and refilled the transmission lube. ( the whole actuator could be removed without draining the trans)
Also,
2.) please ask for a full list of the part numbers used.
I remain curious about whether they changed the actuator assembly (the whole 'door') or just put a seal in the thing.
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Post by: moscooter on April 27, 2015, 08:06:26 AM
I'm no chemist nor a specialist in lubrications. But, I'm getting tired of the repeated "concern" about the transmission lube needing changed out.
Recall that Harley (touted) the use of Syn3 in all three holes............Hard to believe, and most of us for sure didn't or don't use it in the transmission and instead use gear lube or a popular choice is Redline Heavy Duty Shock Proof.
With the above in mind, and the relatively minor amount of hydraulic fluid from the clutch that very likely went into the trans...........No BFD in my mind.
Should the Dealer change out the trans lube because of the clutch problem and the likelyhood that it did in fact end up in the trans..........probably so, but if they don't, I would venture to say the "dilution" from the hydraulic fluid is so minimal as to not be of any concern. :nixweiss:
Post by: cambo on April 27, 2015, 08:14:56 AM
Cam, I'm going to ask a favor of you...OK, make it two. While your bike is sitting there, pleaseAccording to Blake at the dealership they did check the fluid in the transmission and there was no cross contamination. Now I asked if they changed the fluid out and he said yes. Also I can't think of any other way they would check for contamination other than draining the fluid. I will ask for the paperwork. The previous two times it did not have a lot of detail, just that they bled the line and rebuilt(?) the master cylinder. Hopefully this time around they will include more info. If not I'll ask for the parts list.
1.) have them verify that they drained and refilled the transmission lube. ( the whole actuator could be removed without draining the trans)
Also,
2.) please ask for a full list of the part numbers used.
I remain curious about whether they changed the actuator assembly (the whole 'door') or just put a seal in the thing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Two more days and I'll get to ride the bike again! Have to get it ready for the trip to Ocean City with John (jpb). :bananarock:
Cam
Post by: skreminegul07 on April 27, 2015, 08:33:02 AM
Post by: zigscvobo on April 27, 2015, 12:37:15 PM
Harley-Davidson Recall
April 26, 2015
Please see the following announcement from the Motorcycle Riders Foundation that was released on April 24, 2015:
HD recall - http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/harley-recalls-46000-motorcycles-30559287
Harley-Davidson is recalling nearly 46,000 motorcycles in the U.S. because
they could stay in gear due to clutches that won't fully disengage.
The recall covers certain Electra Glide, Ultra Limited, Police Electra
Glide, Street Glide, Road Glide and Road King models from the 2014 and
2015 model years.
Harley-Davidson Motor Co. said in documents that gas bubbles can cause the
clutch master cylinder to lose its ability to fully disengage the clutch,
especially if the bike has been parked for a long time. This could cause a
rider to lose control of the motorcycle if it's started in gear.
The problem was found through customer complaints. Harley reported 27
crashes and four minor injuries.
Dealers will flush the clutch and rebuild the master cylinder. The recall
was to start April 23
Matt Danielson
McGrath & Danielson
The Motorcycle Law Group
1-800-321-8968
Motorcyclelawgroup.com
Post by: MrSurly on April 27, 2015, 10:18:13 PM
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Post by: cambo on April 28, 2015, 09:14:32 AM
I'm heading for the Texas Hill Country in two days and I'll be thinking of you and rooting for your ride to finally be fixed!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thanks MrSurly. I'm supposed to hear from the dealer today and get the bike back tomorrow. My cell phone is charged up and within reach and I frequently practice picking it up and answering it on the first ring in a very pleasant, friendly voice!
I have a ride to Ocean City planned for Friday AM. Between getting the bike on Wednesday and Friday AM there are floorboard extensions, shorty antenna, and HD premium shocks to be installed. In other words, if I don't get the bike tomorrow as promised I'll be seriously pi$$ed. Not that there's anything I can do about it other than forgetting about the friendly voice thing.
Fingers crossed even as I typed the above.
Cam
Post by: MrSurly on April 28, 2015, 09:29:12 AM
2.) Evidence abounds that you don't get pissed easily.
3.) If they manage to cross THAT lofty threshold, I don't want to be nearby!
And <thread drift alert> The video in your sig has me so confused....is that someone reading a MAP while riding?
Maybe its the WSJ?
Post by: cambo on April 28, 2015, 09:59:02 AM
:) I'd never noticed that! Had to check out the hi-res version. That's actually the sun reflecting off of the bike's windshield.
And <thread drift alert> The video in your sig has me so confused....is that someone reading a MAP while riding?
Maybe its the WSJ?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/33856264@N03/10336696083/sizes/o/
Cam
Post by: MrSurly on April 28, 2015, 10:07:58 AM
Sorry. Pins~needles here.
Post by: T-Roy on April 28, 2015, 05:52:55 PM
Post by: cambo on April 28, 2015, 06:19:08 PM
YOU CALL 'EM YET? HUH? YOU CALL 'EM YET?
Sorry. Pins~needles here.
Called them and was told the bike is ready and they will drop it off tomorrow before 10 AM! :bananarock:
I'm gonna ride it as soon as delivered and report back.
Cam
Post by: phato1 on April 28, 2015, 09:27:27 PM
Post by: sadunbar on April 28, 2015, 09:40:51 PM
Called them and was told the bike is ready and they will drop it off tomorrow before 10 AM! :bananarock:
I'm gonna ride it as soon as delivered and report back.
Cam
Be careful until you're confident it's working.... :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: cambo on April 29, 2015, 01:12:15 PM
Then I sat and waited until around ten when I heard the Fullsac rumble outside.
Found my jacket, grabbed my helmet, made it outside in seconds flat.
And went for a quick 75 mile ride and all is well. Perfect weather BTW.
Anyhow I'm all set for now. Thank you everyone for your expert advice, moral/emotional support and putting up with all my bellyaching.
Over and out.
Cam
Post by: zigscvobo on April 29, 2015, 01:37:36 PM
Post by: cambo on April 29, 2015, 01:43:58 PM
Thats awsome Cam. Have a safe trip and hope to see ya at Payne's one day soon.
Let me know whenever you're in the neighborhood and I'll meet you there in less than 10 minutes. It would be great to have to CVOBO's side by side for some pics!
Post by: zigscvobo on April 29, 2015, 01:46:12 PM
Post by: MrSurly on April 29, 2015, 01:50:20 PM
Every day, that's the orders.... Really, Honey, I have to!
Post by: zigscvobo on April 29, 2015, 01:53:25 PM
Post by: T-Roy on April 29, 2015, 09:13:41 PM
Post by: cambo on April 29, 2015, 09:35:40 PM
Thanks and sorry for taking over your topic man! I should have started a new one. It's just that initially it sounded like we had the same problem. :-[
And yes, I'm on my way. jpb was kind enough to donate a quart of Redline and we changed the transmission fluid this evening. So even if the dealer had not done so, we are in the clear as far as possible fluid contamination.
Like they say in Louisiana: Laissez les bons temps rouler! :bananarock:
Cam
Post by: beto47 on April 30, 2015, 10:51:11 AM
Post by: Driver30 on April 30, 2015, 12:09:46 PM
Post by: T-Roy on April 30, 2015, 03:19:56 PM
T-Roy,
Thanks and sorry for taking over your topic man! I should have started a new one. It's just that initially it sounded like we had the same problem. :-[
And yes, I'm on my way. jpb was kind enough to donate a quart of Redline and we changed the transmission fluid this evening. So even if the dealer had not done so, we are in the clear as far as possible fluid contamination.
No problem Cam. I did not consider it a take over. It was just additional information. As far as my issues go the Harley shop said they should have the rest of the parts by the end of the day tomorrow so I am hoping I will be leaving town on my bike this Sunday.
Like they say in Louisiana: Laissez les bons temps rouler! :bananarock:
Cam
Post by: casbar on April 30, 2015, 03:56:56 PM
Post by: ONE2BAJA on April 30, 2015, 04:30:01 PM
not yet..but i have one coming!
Post by: beto47 on April 30, 2015, 05:01:58 PM
Post by: RonandJanet on May 01, 2015, 01:01:45 PM
Post by: T-Roy on May 01, 2015, 10:09:09 PM
Post by: MrSurly on May 02, 2015, 02:02:13 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Tractor Bubba on May 03, 2015, 10:43:37 AM
The wife opened it while I was working in the yard.
She was all "you can't ride her now...", but I told her "...it would be fine - just don't stand in front of it when I fire her up!"
Post by: RonandJanet on May 04, 2015, 12:55:51 PM
Notice came in the mail yesterday.
The wife opened it while I was working in the yard.
She was all "you can't ride her now...", but I told her "...it would be fine - just don't stand in front of it when I fire her up!"
But wouldn't that help to keep the bike from getting scratched! HA Just kidding!
Just remember as long as you ride everyday you wont; have a problem!
Post by: cambo on May 04, 2015, 01:12:45 PM
The Harley shop received the rest of the parts today. This shop stays open through the weekend so my fingers and toes are crossed that they can have it ready for me to leave town on it this Sunday.T-Roy,
Did things work out for you this past weekend?
Cam
Post by: BritGuy on May 04, 2015, 07:35:16 PM
So, called the nearest dealer (they did the last recall, last year on the same clutch....) and having established that my VIN really was subject to a recall and I wasn't just trying to get the work done for chits and giggles, he says "I will put you on the list, no kits from Harley to do the work and I don't have the first idea when they will arrive. Call you when I have them".
Seriously Harley? You know where the bikes where retailed through, send the dealers a working stock of recall kits based on the retail footprint and then top them up as required as I know not every dealer who retailed one will still be looking after it. Really, how hard can it be??
My bike is used regularly and I always start in neutral with the clutch pulled in so I am thinking I should be OK. If not, I have a washing machine rather than a riding machine until Harley extracts it's digit.
Post by: MrSurly on May 04, 2015, 07:42:56 PM
I'm of the impression that even if you don't have the parts to replace...if your bike exhibits the symptoms, it would seem that the 'get by' fix would be to fully flush and replace the fluid. I would imagine that doing this would buy you some time, though I can't prove it.
Post by: BritGuy on May 05, 2015, 08:24:06 PM
Post by: T-Roy on May 06, 2015, 07:35:39 AM
T-Roy,
Did things work out for you this past weekend?
Cam
No I am afraid not. When they took the slave cylinder apart to remove the pushrod they found that end of it all chewed up also. I sure would have thought they would have done that already?? Sooo now they have ordered a new slave cylinder and I left town in the cage to go offshore to work. The silver lining in the cloud is the service manager said he is going to put as much of the bill as he can on an ESP CLAIM since the have some factory parts that have failed. He said he is going to treat it like the slave cylinder failing was the root cause of everything else going bad.
Post by: RonandJanet on May 06, 2015, 04:04:08 PM
Post by: RonandJanet on May 06, 2015, 04:04:56 PM
Post by: longlast on May 10, 2015, 04:06:06 AM
Think that recalls are only limited to the car and truck driving motorist? Think again. Today Harley-Davidson announced that they will be recalling nearly 46,000 motorcycles over an issue regarding the clutch that could cause the clutch to not disengage fully.
The recall consists of 2014 and 2015 Electra Glide, Ultra Limited, Police Electra Glide, Street Glide, Road Glide, and Road King models.
14_FLHXS_L
According to Harley-Davidson, the affected bikes could develop gas bubbles that would prevent the clutch master cylinder from fully disengaging the clutch. This is apparently more of a problem for bikes that have been sitting for awhile. So basically everywhere other than in California.
A clutch that is not fully disengaged can cause an accident. Harley-Davidson discovered the problem through customer complaints. 27 crashes have been caused as a result of this defect, including 4 minor injuries.
15_FLTRX_LOC1
Dealers will flush the clutch and rebuild the master cylinder as part of the recall. If you think you might be affected, contact your local dealership right away.
27 crashes to figure out there’s a problem seems like a lot. What do you think? Let us know in the forums!
via [ABC News]
Tags: Electra Glide, Harley, Harley Davidson, HD, motorcycle, Police Electra Glide, Recall, road glide, Road King, street glide, total recall, Ultra Limited
Post by: JCZ on May 10, 2015, 11:10:05 AM
Post by: Brownie113 on July 23, 2017, 05:07:54 PM