Topic: Lifters Again. (Read 7457 times)

HarleyJeffOregon · « **on:** June 24, 2016, 04:46:28 PM »

Well here we go again. Lifters went bad last march on my 2010. 70,000 miles on the clock. Now At 97,000 miles they went bad again. this time when I take the dipstick out into the sun it looks like a metallic paint job. last time I caught it very early and there was not any metal in the oil. I have esp still. having it looked at in the morning. any advise for me if the dealer tries just to replace the lifters again. I think it should be a replacement motor this time.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #1 on:** June 24, 2016, 05:49:45 PM »

Plus the oil cooler and oil pan.
You answered your own question properly.

grc · « **Reply #2 on:** June 24, 2016, 07:05:30 PM »

If the oil in the pan is full of metal particles, the entire engine is full of metal particles. IMHO it would be cheaper for the ESP company to just buy a long block versus completely tear down, clean, inspect, and replace all the damaged parts. If they tell you they only plan to flush the pan and replace the lifters, you need to immediately go over the local rep's head to the folks in the home office with the authority to do the right thing. If they continue to resist doing the right thing, you need to protect yourself legally. In other words, hope for the best but be prepared for the worst.

Jerry

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #3 on:** June 24, 2016, 07:07:28 PM »

Very true, 100% right on the money.

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #4 on:** June 24, 2016, 07:16:31 PM »

Pull the crank position sensor, it will tell the whole story...

Ridgerunr · « **Reply #5 on:** June 25, 2016, 07:50:58 AM »

When you get the motor straightened out, put in some lifters with a record of lasting. But even S&S considers them a maintenance item.

Kingspoke · « **Reply #6 on:** June 25, 2016, 04:31:18 PM »

Wow, thankfully you have an extending warranty.

Hopefully they'll replace the motor!

HarleyJeffOregon · « **Reply #7 on:** June 27, 2016, 11:10:43 AM »

Got the bike in Saturday morning, I was with the tec when he pulled the nosecone. lots of large pieces in the bottom. the rear roller on the intake side went bad and ate the lobe off of the cam. Anything over $1000 Harley has to come and approve. The dealer said they will look and price both ways and then decide weather to rebuild or replace. They said the bonus to a complete rebuild would be getting to make a 117 pro out of it for only about $1000 out of my pocket. could also put a Darkhorse crank and have it balanced. Will know more on Tues when Harley looks at it. Thanks for your advice on the pan and the cooler. I will ask about those. Another good friend also told me about that. The cooler I was going to try to get replaced. But I didn't think about the pan. I just want it done right.

HarleyJeffOregon · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2016, 11:12:10 AM »

Quote from: Kingspoke on June 25, 2016, 04:31:18 PM

Wow, thankfully you have an extending warranty. Hopefully they'll replace the motor!

Yes I am very Happy to Have It!!!!

bakon · « **Reply #9 on:** June 27, 2016, 12:32:00 PM »

SE lifters?

HarleyJeffOregon · « **Reply #10 on:** June 27, 2016, 03:44:57 PM »

The 117 kit comes with the new heavy duty SE lifters. The dealer says they are as good as any of the lifter's out there. They said to be safe they should be changed every 20,000 miles to be safe. They have seen failures of all brands. Changing then is a cheap insurance policy I guess. I got 70,000 out of my original set and only 27,000 out of the new set. I was told that it was very unusual to see the intake side go away. Like maybe the last set was set too tight to begin with.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2016, 03:52:08 PM »

Those lifters from SE fail too. All of them are a maintenance item especially on the 110s

Dan_Lockwood · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2016, 04:10:37 PM »

Quote from: HD Street Performance on June 27, 2016, 03:52:08 PM

Those lifters from SE fail too. All of them are a maintenance item especially on the 110s

Too much valve spring?

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2016, 08:05:17 PM »

It's easy to knee jerk to that conclusion but with even stock cams with steep ramps and valves plus spring packages that are heavy, add in pole vault pushrods and you have very tough duty for the lifters. The spring pressure can go down a little but not a lot and still the lifters are pushed.

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2016, 09:01:12 PM »

Quote from: HD Street Performance on June 27, 2016, 03:52:08 PM

Those lifters from SE fail too. All of them are a maintenance item especially on the 110s

How about the Woods directional Lifters? Thats whats in my King now. When I do the build next month, I will be putting the new Woods Alpha lifters in it.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #15 on:** June 27, 2016, 09:18:42 PM »

Quote from: FLSTFI Dave on June 27, 2016, 09:01:12 PM

How about the Woods directional Lifters? Thats whats in my King now. When I do the build next month, I will be putting the new Woods Alpha lifters in it.

As hare brained as this sounds the few bikes around me that occasionally make use of my beer fridge and lift all hear me say don't spend the money on the high dollar lifters. Have seen them fail too. Instead doing something like the standard S&S or the Feuling HP+ lifters. Just good standard product. Then replace them with regularity.

It just amazes me that we so blithely or even nonchalantly accept engine internals that fail so regularly and catastrophically as a norm. Modern manufacturing, design, repeatable tolerances and materials sciences suggest otherwise for seemingly everyone but Harley. Yet here we are with consumable lifters. Even as bad as Harley screws up its early releases of everything I am so tired of the Twin Cam bullchit I wish they do whatever comes next and put this bastard step-child to bed.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2016, 03:57:11 AM »

Made by Morel, decent.

bakon · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2016, 08:54:35 AM »

Which brand failed was my question. I have only had SE fail on me but on a .650 lift cam and HTCC CNC heads

LC110 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2016, 09:26:32 AM »

For a lifter I would recommend the Topline Hylift Johnson B-2313SE.
They have a tighter I.D Grind which makes for a very slow leak down.
Direct shot oil system, sends oil directly to the axle and roller needle bearings.

sadunbar · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2016, 09:36:35 AM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on June 27, 2016, 09:18:42 PM

As hare brained as this sounds the few bikes around me that occasionally make use of my beer fridge and lift all hear me say don't spend the money on the high dollar lifters. Have seen them fail too. Instead doing something like the standard S&S or the Feuling HP+ lifters. Just good standard product. Then replace them with regularity.

It just amazes me that we so blithely or even nonchalantly accept engine internals that fail so regularly and catastrophically as a norm. Modern manufacturing, design, repeatable tolerances and materials sciences suggest otherwise for seemingly everyone but Harley. Yet here we are with consumable lifters. Even as bad as Harley screws up its early releases of everything I am so tired of the Twin Cam bullchit I wish they do whatever comes next and put this bastard step-child to bed.

Me too! I'd like to buy a new bike, but I'll never buy another Harley with a Twin Cam motor... With allowing for a few years beta testing for whatever comes next, it's not looking like I will have the opportunity for a purchase for quite some time....

HarleyJeffOregon · « **Reply #20 on:** June 28, 2016, 10:41:35 AM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on June 27, 2016, 09:18:42 PM

As hare brained as this sounds the few bikes around me that occasionally make use of my beer fridge and lift all hear me say don't spend the money on the high dollar lifters. Have seen them fail too. Instead doing something like the standard S&S or the Feuling HP+ lifters. Just good standard product. Then replace them with regularity.

It just amazes me that we so blithely or even nonchalantly accept engine internals that fail so regularly and catastrophically as a norm. Modern manufacturing, design, repeatable tolerances and materials sciences suggest otherwise for seemingly everyone but Harley. Yet here we are with consumable lifters. Even as bad as Harley screws up its early releases of everything I am so tired of the Twin Cam bullchit I wish they do whatever comes next and put this bastard step-child to bed.

I know! Why Cant we make a good Lifter!!!

HarleyJeffOregon · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2016, 10:47:00 AM »

Quote from: bakon on June 28, 2016, 08:54:35 AM

Which brand failed was my question. I have only had SE fail on me but on a .650 lift cam and HTCC CNC heads

When they were replaced the last time it was with the last version stock Lifter that comes from the MOCO in new bikes. My original 2010 set lasted 70,000 miles. the new set only 27,000. My goal was to make it to the 100,000 mile mark and then rebuild it. Oh well.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2016, 11:23:26 AM »

Quote from: HarleyJeffOregon on June 28, 2016, 10:41:35 AM

I know! Why Cant we make a good Lifter!!!

It's the system and not just the part.

sadunbar · « **Reply #23 on:** June 28, 2016, 11:33:48 AM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on June 28, 2016, 11:23:26 AM

It's the system and not just the part.

Absolutely correct... The very same design lifters work just fine in other applications. Lifters work just fine in an EVO! As Don said, it's the overall system - the lubrication, forces, angles, pressures, temperatures and so on... The Twin Cam package is plain not conducive long lifter life. No one factor, probably no two or three factors. The entire package. If I were one thing, it would have been solved by someone a long time ago...

Just like the compensator. There is no magic compensator design for this package. Compensators work just fine in lots of applications, but not in this overall system.

coloradotom · « **Reply #24 on:** June 28, 2016, 11:51:00 AM »

Quote from: sadunbar on June 28, 2016, 11:33:48 AM

Absolutely correct... The very same design lifters work just fine in other applications. Lifters work just fine in an EVO! As Don said, it's the overall system - the lubrication, forces, angles, pressures, temperatures and so on... The Twin Cam package is plain not conducive long lifter life. No one factor, probably no two or three factors. The entire package. If I were one thing, it would have been solved by someone a long time ago...

Just like the compensator. There is no magic compensator design for this package. Compensators work just fine in lots of applications, but not in this overall system.

I wouldn't say it's the design. My '01 twin cam had 85k on it and I had no lifter issues or any issues with that motor whatsoever. People whined about wanting bigger motors and the moco delivered. Bigger motors = bigger problems.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #25 on:** June 28, 2016, 11:51:32 AM »

Quote from: sadunbar on June 28, 2016, 11:33:48 AM

Absolutely correct... The very same design lifters work just fine in other applications. Lifters work just fine in an EVO! As Don said, it's the overall system - the lubrication, forces, angles, pressures, temperatures and so on... The Twin Cam package is plain not conducive long lifter life. No one factor, probably no two or three factors. The entire package. If I were one thing, it would have been solved by someone a long time ago...

Just like the compensator. There is no magic compensator design for this package. Compensators work just fine in lots of applications, but not in this overall system.

Which, looking at it from a design perspective rather than a pissed off owner's perspective, is actually interesting as to the product and informative as to the company.

Lifters didn't fail like this in earlier Twin Cams. Sure, cam bearings did (early on) and chain tensioners did. But not lifters. The cam bearings especially were a component rather than a system issue too.

Then Harley took an engine designed to be (with some basic adequacy) a low horsepower 88 inch engine and thought they were smart enough to make it both larger and weaker at the same time. Timken bearings and reinforcements went away, crankshafts became less robustly manufactured, geometries and pressures became more challenging and displacements and outputs went up.

The only band-aids were compression releases to help with starting (and nothing else), a grossly ineffective compensator system (to minimize crank issues that would otherwise likely be even worse) and a little water running through the heads. The system was adequate (not great, just adequate) enough for what it was. It is still, basically, a decades old design that they are now trying to limp in to the 21st century and compete with companies producing more power. It's no wonder the damn things die like ants in a playground full of boys with magnifying glasses.

There is simply no way Harley didn't know this was a questionable recipe with weak ingredients. MoCo is in the enviable position of selling vehicles that don't get many miles though. So they can get away with a LOT that other manufacturers would not. As much as we hear now; think what the tumult would be if this was discussed over an actually large fleet that regularly got 100,000 miles in 6 years?

Twolanerider · « **Reply #26 on:** June 28, 2016, 11:54:58 AM »

Quote from: coloradotom on June 28, 2016, 11:51:00 AM

I wouldn't say it's the design. My '01 twin cam had 85k on it and I had no lifter issues or any issues with that motor whatsoever. People whined about wanting bigger motors and the moco delivered. Bigger motors = bigger problems.

It definitely is the overall design. We can't compare the 01 valve train and top end to what's going on in a 110 now. MoCo has made changes over the years to what was a system that was ok, marginally so, but ok; for a lower displacement lower horsepower but still decades old basic design. They now try to make it compete in a market it was never originally designed for nor envisaged. So, they die.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #27 on:** June 28, 2016, 02:00:13 PM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on June 27, 2016, 09:18:42 PM

As hare brained as this sounds the few bikes around me that occasionally make use of my beer fridge and lift all hear me say don't spend the money on the high dollar lifters. Have seen them fail too. Instead doing something like the standard S&S or the Feuling HP+ lifters. Just good standard product. Then replace them with regularity.

It just amazes me that we so blithely or even nonchalantly accept engine internals that fail so regularly and catastrophically as a norm. Modern manufacturing, design, repeatable tolerances and materials sciences suggest otherwise for seemingly everyone but Harley. Yet here we are with consumable lifters. Even as bad as Harley screws up its early releases of everything I am so tired of the Twin Cam bullchit I wish they do whatever comes next and put this bastard step-child to bed.

Your wish is my command!!!!!! Keep your eyes open and just wait to see what happens in August. I just wish we could ask the pool boy to confirm the release of a NEW Big Twin!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Twolanerider · « **Reply #28 on:** June 28, 2016, 02:05:16 PM »

Quote from: DCFIREMANN on June 28, 2016, 02:00:13 PM

Your wish is my command!!!!!! Keep your eyes open and just wait to see what happens in August. I just wish we could ask the pool boy to confirm the release of a NEW Big Twin!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Have heard a few rumors also Mike. One in particular from a source I'd almost trust. But you know me. Without provenance or citation or something I still don't trust chit. So I'm just waiting to see; like everyone else. Interesting mixed product line may be ahead of us. Maybe

.

Rooster · « **Reply #29 on:** June 28, 2016, 04:08:29 PM »

:vrolijk_11:I will be watching this time instead of participating.

TN · « **Reply #30 on:** June 28, 2016, 04:09:45 PM »

I'm sure something is in the works, the twin cam patent has run its course and we know how MOCO likes to be proprietary.

Buying the first year 110 I have learnt my lesson, so much so I purchased a third year 110.

And with all the dealer support I received and Moco backing them up I'm in HOG heaven........

TN

HarleyJeffOregon · « **Reply #31 on:** June 28, 2016, 05:55:50 PM »

Does this same thing happen on the new 103's?

LC110 · « **Reply #32 on:** June 28, 2016, 06:50:46 PM »

Just a rumor

sadunbar · « **Reply #33 on:** June 28, 2016, 07:16:34 PM »

Quote from: Rooster on June 28, 2016, 04:08:29 PM

I will be watching this time instead of participating.

Me too!

We were both victims of the 2007 catastrophe... But they did send us a book....

Ohio HD · « **Reply #34 on:** June 28, 2016, 09:40:42 PM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on June 28, 2016, 11:23:26 AM

It's the system and not just the part.

I agree.

Rooster · « **Reply #35 on:** June 30, 2016, 02:38:11 PM »

Quote from: sadunbar on June 28, 2016, 07:16:34 PM

Me too!

We were both victims of the 2007 catastrophe... But they did send us a book....

I didn't get a book

sadunbar · « **Reply #36 on:** June 30, 2016, 02:39:31 PM »

Quote from: Rooster on June 30, 2016, 02:38:11 PM

I didn't get a book

Holy cow... You really got the sharp end of the stick...

Para Bellum · « **Reply #37 on:** July 01, 2016, 02:25:33 AM »

Quote from: sadunbar on June 30, 2016, 02:39:31 PM

Holy cow... You really got the ~~sharp~~ chitty end of the stick...

Modified it for you.

Author Topic: Lifters Again. (Read 7457 times)