www.CVOHARLEY.com

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Wet sumping ?  (Read 1575 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BillH

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 327
  • 2008 FLTRI
Wet sumping ?
« on: May 27, 2006, 01:16:14 AM »
Is wet sumping isolated to "B" motors, or can it happen in "A" motors as well?  I just completed a "95 in build, and have a lot of oil smoke on startup, and low oil level after it sits overnight.  It has all the signs of wet sumping, but I need to make sure that an "A" motor can suffer from this before I pull the cam cover again to get at the oil pump.

It's always something...

Billh
Logged
2008 FLTRI - 103, S&S 570 cams, SE cam plate, Ness Big Sucker, Woods lifters, GMR adjustable pushrods, Lozano Brothers heads, HPI 54mm throttle body mod, Supertrapp 2:1, SE compensator, BDL +1 clutch TTS tuner w/GMR Dyno, Ricor fork valves, Progressive 440's, Wild 1 515's bars, HID's, TrueTrack, J&M 71/2" speakers, Clearview +2, lots of other small stuff.

grc

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14216
  • AKA Grouchy Old Fart
    • IN


    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2
Re: Wet sumping ?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2006, 08:30:37 AM »
Quote
Is wet sumping isolated to "B" motors, or can it happen in "A" motors as well?  I just completed a "95 in build, and have a lot of oil smoke on startup, and low oil level after it sits overnight.  It has all the signs of wet sumping, but I need to make sure that an "A" motor can suffer from this before I pull the cam cover again to get at the oil pump.

It's always something...

Billh
Billh,

"Wet Sumping" is not limited to just one type of motor - any dry sump engine can experience the same thing, including those in NASCAR stock cars, piston aircraft, etc.  The oil pump design on the Twin Cams, A or B, relies on O-rings for sealing. Those O-rings can easily be cut, nicked, or torn during assembly, and that would be the first place I would look.

Jerry
Logged
Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

H-D and me  -  a classic love / hate relationship.  Current score:  love 40, hate 50, bewildered 10.

cigarmike

  • Guest
Re: Wet sumping ?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2006, 10:29:04 AM »
I had a torn o-ring on seeg from day 1 of purchase.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 10:29:24 AM by cigarmike »
Logged

BillH

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 327
  • 2008 FLTRI
Re: Wet sumping ?
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2006, 12:36:06 AM »
Here's the latest -

After a 25 mile ride, we pulled the crankcase plug and only got 2-3 oz's of oil.  Also the motor pulls REAL hard, so I think we can rule out wet sumping.  Next we did a compression test - got 175 lbs cold on both cylinders, seems OK.  Next the the leak-down was only 5% on both cylinders.  So why the concern in the first place?..after a very careful 95" build with Andrews 37g cams, SE flat top pistons, Vance & Hines Ovals, SE AC, SE lifters, .030 Cometics, Short Block Charlie heads & cylinders, I get A LOT of oil smoke when I first start it up, like 10 minutes worth!  The plugs foul and the garage fills with blue smoke.  After I get the motor cleared out, it runs fine and the plugs will burn off...until the next morning when it starts all over again.  At this point I am thinking either valve seals or guides, both of which were replaced with Charlies head work!

If anyone has any other ideas, I am looking for ANY reason not to pull the heads back off and be down for anopther 2 weeks.

Billh
Logged
2008 FLTRI - 103, S&S 570 cams, SE cam plate, Ness Big Sucker, Woods lifters, GMR adjustable pushrods, Lozano Brothers heads, HPI 54mm throttle body mod, Supertrapp 2:1, SE compensator, BDL +1 clutch TTS tuner w/GMR Dyno, Ricor fork valves, Progressive 440's, Wild 1 515's bars, HID's, TrueTrack, J&M 71/2" speakers, Clearview +2, lots of other small stuff.

denim

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 29
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Wet sumping ?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2006, 09:40:28 AM »
BillH,

My guess would be a valve seal.
Ed, the guy that sent you the map had these exact symptoms on an earlier bike. His was pretty easy to isolate as I remember. Once the rocker boxes were off you could see one of the seals was cocked.
Also I think you could see the oil in the exhaust port.
I wouldn't send the head back to SBC (just the bill $$), most any good shop should be able to replace the seal.
If you still have Ed's email you can ask him on the symptoms, but pretty sure they were exactly like yours. Smoked a lot on start up then cleared up after several minutes.

Good Luck,
denim
Logged

EZRIDN

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
  • FLHRSEI.ORG - Paying tribute to an American legend
    • NE


    • CVO1: FLHRSEI2
    • CVO2: 1947 FL
    • CVO3: 2004 FXSTI
Re: Wet sumping ?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2006, 04:31:23 PM »
I would agree in that it is probably a leaking valve seal.   Sometimes one of those rascals can sneak through quality control and be damaged or have incorrect sizing.  Also possible that it might have gotten damaged during the installation process.  

Another probability, though less likely, is an incorrect valve guide or valve stem clearance...meaning one may be over/undersized.  Leakdown tests (warm/cold) should reveal this.

Good luck with this...I hope its an easy fix.
Logged
"My goal is to become that old person everyone is afraid to take out in public."

"I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended...please be patient...I will get to you shortly ."

HD Owners Tip #39:  "Although the manual doesn't mention it, some swearing seems to help most machines run a little better."

BillH

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 327
  • 2008 FLTRI
Re: Wet sumping ?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2006, 10:31:15 PM »
Thanks for your ideas.  I talked to Charlie (SBC) today and he also seems to think that it must be valve stem seals leaking.  With the compression at 175, and the leakdown at 5%, there really isn't much left!  He is going to send new seals and gaskets since I do not want to take the 2-3 weeks to send them back for repair work and I can do it myself.  Charlie said that the had some seal problems a couple of years ago, but nothing recently.

Oh well, chit happens and I can still ride the ROT Rally this weekend.

Thanks again for the help.

Billh
Logged
2008 FLTRI - 103, S&S 570 cams, SE cam plate, Ness Big Sucker, Woods lifters, GMR adjustable pushrods, Lozano Brothers heads, HPI 54mm throttle body mod, Supertrapp 2:1, SE compensator, BDL +1 clutch TTS tuner w/GMR Dyno, Ricor fork valves, Progressive 440's, Wild 1 515's bars, HID's, TrueTrack, J&M 71/2" speakers, Clearview +2, lots of other small stuff.

arcticdude

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1544
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Wet sumping ?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2006, 10:36:43 PM »
Have fun at ROT!!  That's great riding in that part of Tx!! [smiley=banana.gif]   Take lots of pictures!! 8-)
Logged
don't waste your time with a usa-spec ipod adapter- chitty products with chitty support

slo_kid

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: Wet sumping ?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2006, 11:19:31 PM »
Would a cough of white smoke on start up point in this general direction????  I've been having this since about 350-400 miles on the bike.  Dealer said it was normal, but I haven't got much faith in that approach.  Any ideas?  
Logged
 

Page created in 0.146 seconds with 21 queries.