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[RJ749]

It's in the way you dress. The way you boogie down. The way you sign your unemployment check. You're a man who likes to do things your own way. And on those special odd-numbered Saturdays when driving is permitted, you want it in your car. It's that special feeling of a zero-emissions wind at your back and a road ahead meandering with possibilities. The kind of feeling you get behind the wheel of the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition from Congressional Motors.

 All new for 2012, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the mandatory American car so advanced it took $100 billion and an entire Congress to design it. We started with same reliable 7-way hybrid ethanol-biodeisel-electric-clean coal-wind-solar-pedal power plant behind the base model Pelosi, but packed it with extra oomph and the sassy styling pizazz that tells the world that 1974 Detroit is back again -- with a vengeance.

We've subsidized the features you want and taxed away the rest. With its advanced Al Gore-designed V-3 under the hood pumping out 22.5 thumping, carbon-neutral ponies of Detroit muscle, you'll never be late for the Disco or the Day Labor Shelter. Engage the pedal drive or strap on the optional jumbo mizzenmast, and the GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition easily exceeds 2016 CAFE mileage standards. At an estimated 268 MPG, that's a savings of nearly $1800 per week in fuel cost over the 2011 Pelosi.

 Even with increased performance we didn't skimp on safety. With 11-point passenger racing harnesses, 15-way airbags, and mandatory hockey helmet, you'll have the security knowing that you could survive a 45 MPH collision even if the GTxi SS/Rt were capable of that kind of illegal speed.

 But the changes don't stop there. Sporty mag-style hubcaps and an all-new aggressive wedge shape designed by CM's Chief Stylist Ted Kennedy slices through the wind like an omnibus spending bill. It even features an airtight undercarriage to keep you and a passenger afloat up to 15 minutes -- even in the choppy waters of a Cape Cod inlet. Available a rainbow of color choices to match any wardrobe, from Harvest Avocado to French Mustard.

Inside, a luxurious all-velour interior designed by Barney Frank features thoughtful appointments like an in-dash condom dispenser. A special high capacity hatchback holds up to 300 aluminum cans, meaning fewer trips to the redemption center. And the standard 3 speaker Fairness ActoPhonic FM low-band sound system means you'll never miss a segment of NPR again.

 Best of all, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt is made right here in the U.S.A. by fully card-checked unionized workers and Detroit 's famous visionary jet-set managers. Even if you don't own one, you can enjoy the patriotic satisfaction that you're supporting the high wages, good benefits, and generous political donations that are once again making the American car industry the envy of the world.

But why not buy one anyway? With an MSRP starting at only $629,999.99, it's affordable too. Don't forget to ask about dealer incentives, rebates, tax credits, and wealth redistribution plans for customers from dozens of qualifying special interest groups. Plus easy-pay financing programs from Fannie Mae.

So take the bus to your local CM dealer today and find out why the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the only car endorsed by President Barack Obama. One test drive will convince you that you'd choose it over the import brands. Even if they were still legal.

[iski]

 

Excellent!

This one is worth spending some of those carbon credits that the politically correct green commuter so desperately hordes in the pocket of their hand woven by the commune hemp shirt.  Of course they expect to get the model with the optional pedal safety clip feature.

[Jock]

But why not buy one anyway? With an MSRP starting at only $629,999.99, it's affordable too. Don't forget to ask about dealer incentives, rebates, tax credits, and wealth redistribution plans for customers from dozens of qualifying special interest groups. Plus easy-pay financing programs from Fannie Mae.

 

 

[Jbbrown73]

 

[SPIDERMAN]

Somewhat on topic I s'pose. Beagle and I stopped at the local Ford dealer this morning. 2009 F-150 Crew Cab models fully loaded with 22" chrome wheels for $22k That's a $10k discount and a couple on the lot were almost $12k off.

B B 

[RJ749]

Somewhat on topic I s'pose. Beagle and I stopped at the local Ford dealer this morning. 2009 F-150 Crew Cab models fully loaded with 22" chrome wheels for $22k That's a $10k discount and a couple on the lot were almost $12k off.

B B 

There you go B B, if more folks would take advatage of the deep discounts that can comfortably afford them, we might get a jump start to the sales.

There's no good answer but now the Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, BMW, MB guiys are all in the dumper along with everyone else, no solution beyond working our colective way out of it.

You guys in California know how hard your State budget has been hit with the lack of car sales to collect sales tax.  If it continues the way it is it will only get much worse.

NADA has figures that show many cities rely on the local auto dealer sales for nearly 40% of the tax revenue generated annually from car sales.  Not sure that could go on too long before the cuts the cities and States will need to make will look insurmountable.

[grc]

Somewhat on topic I s'pose. Beagle and I stopped at the local Ford dealer this morning. 2009 F-150 Crew Cab models fully loaded with 22" chrome wheels for $22k That's a $10k discount and a couple on the lot were almost $12k off.

B B 

This is the best of times for folks who need a new truck.  I can't remember ever seeing discounts as deep as those currently available, even back in the last major recession in the early 80's.  There are plenty of excellent deals on cars as well.

Jerry

PS, the Pelosimobile is funny stuff on the surface, but the pending demise of the American auto companies is no laughing matter.  If GM is allowed to fail, you will see a rapid snowball effect that will sweep up the other companies as well as the suppliers and dealers.  We are talking millions of jobs and billions in tax revenues disappearing in a very short period of time.  Government at all levels will lose major amounts of revenue while having to provide services for those thrown out on the street. Welcome to the Great Depression, Part Deux.  In the meantime, the crooked bastards on Wall Street and Capital Hill who brought this economy to it's knee's keep tossing around hundreds of billions of our money among themselves, with no accountability whatsoever.  Does anyone else see something rotten here, or am I totally out of touch?

[RJ749]

This is the best of times for folks who need a new truck.  I can't remember ever seeing discounts as deep as those currently available, even back in the last major recession in the early 80's.  There are plenty of excellent deals on cars as well.

Jerry

PS, the Pelosimobile is funny stuff on the surface, but the pending demise of the American auto companies is no laughing matter.  If GM is allowed to fail, you will see a rapid snowball effect that will sweep up the other companies as well as the suppliers and dealers.  We are talking millions of jobs and billions in tax revenues disappearing in a very short period of time.  Government at all levels will lose major amounts of revenue while having to provide services for those thrown out on the street. Welcome to the Great Depression, Part Deux.  In the meantime, the crooked bastards on Wall Street and Capital Hill who brought this economy to it's knee's keep tossing around hundreds of billions of our money among themselves, with no accountability whatsoever.  Does anyone else see something rotten here, or am I totally out of touch?

You got it Jerry, not to mention the fact that I was at $4.00 a gallon for regular less than two months ago and now it's $1.80, how the hell is that possible if the high end wasn't being manipulated?

[RJ749]

Since the thread has morphed a bit  (thanks B B)

Today from the Detroit Free Press:

 Editorial: Invest in America
A Special Free Press Editorial

We have chronicled the U.S. auto industry since its birth, as Detroit became the world's Motor City, as cars and trucks changed the American culture and landscape, as assembly line jobs gave rise to the American middle class. Our journalists have reported the automakers' triumphs and exposed their troubles. We know this industry better than anyone. We also know that while a newspaper needs to inform, there are times when a newspaper needs to speak up for what's right. We know what automakers and autoworkers mean to this nation. We know what will happen if one of the auto companies is allowed to collapse. We know because this industry has been our story since it started. And we know that America needs this story to continue.

The loss of jobs, the devastated retirements, the massive loss of health care coverage, the sharp drop in local tax revenues, the closings of supplier and ancillary businesses — all would be calamitous in the best of times. More than 3 million jobs are at stake in the industry. General Motors, Ford and Chrysler are threaded in the fabric of businesses in every state across America. A failure of one or more of the automakers would deepen the country's worst recession in 27 years, and it could take decades to rebuild the nation's industrial base, which will atrophy like an unused limb without the muscle-flexing of Detroit's automakers. Remember, too, that Detroit helped rescue America as the Arsenal of Democracy in World War II and, through GM's no-interest loans, helped jump-start the battered economy after 9/11. Now, when our automakers and autoworkers need a hand up, will America really turn its back? The Detroit automakers are hemorrhaging cash to stay in business. Two of them are nearly drained, and the third is getting by on a transfusion. They can get well. They have shown how. But first they have to survive. And their survival is in America's best interests. You can help them. And if you don't, make no mistake: There will be bleeding throughout the land.
Source:  Detroit Free Press

 

[RJ749]

With a follow up regarding Wall Street:

Help the Detroit 3 for the Sake of Banks

WASHINGTON -- A new and potentially powerful argument for rescuing America's automakers emerged Thursday on Capitol Hill: Let them fail, and the financial markets bailed out to the tune of $700 billion could be severely wounded. Why? Detroit's automakers -- General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC -- and their suppliers have about $1 trillion worth of exposure in the financial markets by some estimates, and their collapse would send shock waves through the investment community. Investment firm J.P. Morgan said this month that GM, Ford and their financing arms account for up to 10% of the junk bond market -- investments that could be worth nothing should the companies fail. GM reported that the Detroit Three automakers account for about $700 billion of outstanding debt.
Source:  Detroit Free Press

[SPIDERMAN]

There you go B B, if more folks would take advatage of the deep discounts that can comfortably afford them, we might get a jump start to the sales.

There's no good answer but now the Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, BMW, MB guiys are all in the dumper along with everyone else, no solution beyond working our colective way out of it.

You guys in California know how hard your State budget has been hit with the lack of car sales to collect sales tax.  If it continues the way it is it will only get much worse.

NADA has figures that show many cities rely on the local auto dealer sales for nearly 40% of the tax revenue generated annually from car sales.  Not sure that could go on too long before the cuts the cities and States will need to make will look insurmountable.

Roger
        Beagle took his wife's 97 Explorer to his mechanic and told him to go over it with a fine tooth comb and an eye toward getting a couple more years out of it. Aprx $500 later, he's got the Explorer back in the driveway with a solid recommendation from his mechanic that it's got two years and then some of use left in it. I've been driving a 93 Explorer with 155,000 miles on it myself lately. The girls have the new cars and Daddy (who pays the bills) has the oldest one in our fleet of 5. Of course the Caddy Deville (my personal favorite) is sitting in a garage in Maine. OK, I'm meandering here, but my point is and Beagle and I have dicsussed this at great length. Right now with the economy the way it is, he and I and a lot of other people are basing buying decisions not on WANT, but on NEED. Sure Beags would love to have one of those deeply discounted 09 F-150 Crewcabs. Does he need it ? Obviously not, no more than I do. In a falling economy, a wise consumer bases buying decisions purely on need. Nothing a retailer can do will entice folks to spend money when they have zero confidence in the economy. Also, worth a mention is what happened with the big banks this week. After you and me and Beags and every taxpayer in the USA foot the bill to the tune of $250,000,000,000 to shore up the banking system, rather than put that money out on the street to revive the economy as Congress intended, the banks not only failed to loan it out, but actually cut 50% of their credit lines. In case anybody missed it, beginning on Monday of this week, something like 3.5 TRILLION dollars in credit was either cancelled outright or reduced. The very thing the government was trying to avert happened. So what I have to say to the Big Three is this FILE FOR CHAPTER 11, renegotiate your contracts with the UAW, stop paying high school grads $80-100K a year to turn nuts and bolts, stop providing insane pensions to these same workers, start collecting some co-pay on insurance premoums for these workers, get rid of the ivory towers (have you see GM's world headquarters ?) chitcan the corporate jets, executive dining rooms, golden parachutes. In short, Go Lean or Die, but don't ask me the taxpayer for a penny because you (Corporate America) have proven that you will lie, lie, lie and cheat the taxpayer and the public every chance you get to line your own pockets.

B B

[RJ749]

I hear you, but unfortunately, the US economy isn't built of saving it is built on buying and selling.

Since most all of us agree to tighten our belts and not buy, we have no where to go but down deeper before the "true" bottom is reached and we work our way out of it.

This is going to get ugly.

I canx my SERG and within the week will most likely cut personnel and more of our budget to avoid going down.  We'll be contributing much less to the community and its commerce which will simply add to the spiral. 

As to the cutting of credit, I hosed those guys and pulled out my entire credit line about a month ago just beating the shrikage of credit lines.  Damn glad I did too as it most likely will be needed to hang on.

[RJ749]

Study: Autos Bankruptcy would be 'Catastrophic' to U.S.
A bankruptcy filing by two of the Detroit Three would cost taxpayers more than four times what they would pay if Congress was to give them a $30 billion bridge loan, according to a report released by Anderson Economic Group and BBK, an international business advisory firm. The study found the job loss would reverberate through the national economy, causing damage that would be "unequivocally much higher than the losses from company restructuring with the help of federal bridge loans," the study concluded. The number crunching calculated that the bankruptcy of two automakers (assuming they would go into Chapter 11 and then be liquidated in Chapter 7) would cost taxpayers $65.9 billion over two years. That includes: $19.8 billion in lost federal income tax; $20.5 billion in lost social security tax; $5.1 billion in lost state income tax; $2.4 billion in lost state sales tax; $3.6 billion in lost property tax; $800 million in state unemployment tax; $8.3 billion in benefits paid out from the unemployment insurance fund; and $5.4 billion in underfunded pensions. That total compares with a $16.4 billion cost to taxpayers if the government provides a $30 billion loan, with half of that amount paid back. According to a Detroit News story, if General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC were to go bankrupt, as they have claimed is likely without an emergency loan, the study estimated more than 1.8 million jobs would be eliminated, as well as corresponding losses in tax revenue.

[iski]

One reason the public is against the auto bailout is discrimination.

A business with a few employees, or a few hundred employees, or even a few thousand employees also pays taxes on all these same levels of course in a lesser amount.  But that lesser amount is not considered vs a potential cost of government bailout & they are allowed to go into Chapter 7.

The public sees the unfairness of this since big businesses get special privileges (even considering this bail out is not done for business going under with 250 employees for example) & also the big businesses & unions pay BIG campaign $$ contributions. Not exactly a coincidence......

[RJ749]

One reason the public is against the auto bailout is discrimination.

A business with a few employees, or a few hundred employees, or even a few thousand employees also pays taxes on all these same levels of course in a lesser amount.  But that lesser amount is not considered vs a potential cost of government bailout & they are allowed to go into Chapter 7.

The public sees the unfairness of this since big businesses get special privileges (even considering this bail out is not done for business going under with 250 employees for example) & also the big businesses & unions pay BIG campaign $$ contributions. Not exactly a coincidence......

If in fact there is any validaty to the fact this is a "loan" and not simply giving them money, I as a small businessman do have the ability to receive a loan through the SBA which may be pointed out is still in the business of supporting small business that presents a viable business plan to them.  My banker in fact is promoting these loans currently as the SBA is on a mini campaign to remind businesses they are still here even in these trying times.

No question about the Unions, big business and political contributions etc. however and no I am sure it isn't coinkadink

[iski]

If in fact there is any validaty to the fact this is a "loan" and not simply giving them money, I as a small businessman do have the ability to receive a loan through the SBA which may be pointed out is still in the business of supporting small business that presents a viable business plan to them.  My banker in fact is promoting these loans currently as the SBA is on a mini campaign to remind businesses they are still here even in these trying times.

No question about the Unions, big business and political contributions etc. however and no I am sure it isn't coinkadink

We are being told it is a loan, but.......

Would any banker in their right mind (business mind) loan these guys $16 bil + considering their track record?  They run their biz about as well as Cali runs their state government, and that bailout looms large in the not so distant future.  SBA requires collateral & good biz practices unless they have changed a lot.  These Big 3 guys can't get conventional financing so they go to DC.  Like Cali will eventually.

Big biz, big lobbies, big unions - all give money so when it's time, they can get greased.  Our tax $$ at work helping out pols & their buds.....biz as usual.


And I still like your original post - excellent!   

[SPIDERMAN]

I was watching HARDBALL and a couple other talking head shows yesterday and the subject I mentioned in my post several posts back was being discussed. Also being discussed was DELTA Airlines Chapter 11 reorganization as an example of how Chapter 11 not only saved DELTA, but produced a much leaner, profitable company. It would appear for once our elected officials are actually doing some thinking. Especially after the way Wall St hosed the taxpayers. Sec Paulson and the Bushies allowed that money to flow freely without regulations or restrictions and as we have seen, Joe Q Taxpayer got nothing. Even folks with high credit scores are seeing loan apps denied and credit lines dry up. We've already paid the piper to the tune of $250,000,000,000 to shore up the banking system and gotten nothing in return.Instead of putting the bailout money out on the street to consumers, Wall St used it to cover their asses.
  Something else I've figured out and this bears paying attention to. If you buy and sell and keep your portfolio in constant state of flux you gain the advantage of taking a loss in a down market as we are most certainly experiencing right now. But if you stay the course, ride out the storm and all the other beatitudes and platitudes the big boys chant at us small fry like sheep bleating, you only can take a loss if the value of your issues is less than what you paid originally. Now you pay capital gains every year based on the previous year's gain, but don't get the loss unless you sold the issue and reinvested.
  One final thought. If the market is so poor, why is the volume of trading so high ? For every seller there has to be a buyer. Who's buying and why ?
  Anyway, bottom line is I am not in favor of giving Detroit a single penny and plan on sending e-mails to my two US Senators today stating so. We need a revolution in this country to force corporations to operate with some sense of morality, decency and obligation to their employees and customers. If that means furthering this recession then so be it in my opinion. It would seem there's no better time than now to bring these self appointed Gods (CEO's) to the knees and chop off their greedy,immoral heads.

B B

[grc]

The problem I see with that approach Brian is that it won't be the CEO's and directors who suffer, it will be the employees and retirees just as it was with the airlines, steel companies, etc.  If Washington wants to come up with a way to force the companies to keep all their promises to the employees (pensions and health insurance for starters) in any bankruptcy filing, then perhaps that would work.  Unfortunately, I've never seen government or the courts show much interest in protecting the rights of the employees in any bankruptcy.  Tear up the union contracts, tear up the salaried employee benefit programs, but let the top dogs get "retention bonuses" to keep them from leaving.  Strange how the clowns who ran the company into the ground get retention bonuses, when they should have been summarily fired years ago for incompetence.

Jerry

BTW, in case anyone wants to know, yes I have a dog in this hunt.  I'm retired from FoMoCo, and if they were to file bankruptcy I could easily lose half my pension and all my medical benefits.  It's one thing to be in your 20's or 30's and have to start over; it's a totally different thing to be nearly 60 and not in great health when they cut you off at the knees.  I kept up my half of the bargain with my employer (and then some) for 35 years, and I don't think my government should help them avoid living up to their half of the agreement.

[RJ749]

BTW, in case anyone wants to know, yes I have a dog in this hunt.  I'm retired from FoMoCo, and if they were to file bankruptcy I could easily lose half my pension and all my medical benefits.  It's one thing to be in your 20's or 30's and have to start over; it's a totally different thing to be nearly 60 and not in great health when they cut you off at the knees.  I kept up my half of the bargain with my employer (and then some) for 35 years, and I don't think my government should help them avoid living up to their half of the agreement.

Jerry,

I just got a PM from a site member whose bro-in-law just shuttered his dealerships.  I imagine all of his employees are having a tough go.  Currently the auto industry employs roughly 6m people in the United States.  I am told that one in ten jobs are auto related.

Not sure how the house of cards is built but it would/will is devastating the effect this financial crisis is having on everyone, especially certain segments of the economy.

Watch for another bank bailout if the dealerships go down all at once, their debt is unreal and would hammer the banks once again.

[SPIDERMAN]

The problem I see with that approach Brian is that it won't be the CEO's and directors who suffer, it will be the employees and retirees just as it was with the airlines, steel companies, etc.  If Washington wants to come up with a way to force the companies to keep all their promises to the employees (pensions and health insurance for starters) in any bankruptcy filing, then perhaps that would work.  Unfortunately, I've never seen government or the courts show much interest in protecting the rights of the employees in any bankruptcy.  Tear up the union contracts, tear up the salaried employee benefit programs, but let the top dogs get "retention bonuses" to keep them from leaving.  Strange how the clowns who ran the company into the ground get retention bonuses, when they should have been summarily fired years ago for incompetence.

Jerry

BTW, in case anyone wants to know, yes I have a dog in this hunt.  I'm retired from FoMoCo, and if they were to file bankruptcy I could easily lose half my pension and all my medical benefits.  It's one thing to be in your 20's or 30's and have to start over; it's a totally different thing to be nearly 60 and not in great health when they cut you off at the knees.  I kept up my half of the bargain with my employer (and then some) for 35 years, and I don't think my government should help them avoid living up to their half of the agreement.

Jerry
       I read your post and I see your point and I agree with everything you say BUT, there has to be something drastic happen to change the way GM,FORD and CHRYSLER do business. GM's headquarters looks like the Taj Mahal meets Buckingham Palace meets Trump Tower meets Billion Dollar Vegas Casino. You can't tell me the cost of that building is justified by it's function, nor can you justify the salaries and perks of everyone from newly hire floor sweeper on up to CEO. The auto industry salary/wage/benefit/perk levels need to be re-invented from the top down and the bottom up. Nothing about how these corporations do business should be beyond question. So how are you going to do that ?  Do you let the same pack of jackals who've been running Detroit for a century continue business as usual ? Do you simply give these two legged hyenas 35 -50 billion dollars to do with as they see fit ? Or do you somehow demand government oversight on salaries, perks, wages and benefits. Make the whole thing part of the GS pay scale system. Hell last time I checked POTUS only makes $250k a year. Ok so his perks are worth millions, in some cases beyond estimation. Of course we're told all of that is part of the demands of the job and I'll buy that. Air Force One certainly does make a hell of an impression on the locals in Zimbawe and other places of that nature. And the White House has been referred to as the greatest home court advantage in the world. Ok, I'm off track, but at the end of the day, we have reached a point in our history where our entire free market ecomomy isn't working and government intervention seems the only way out. So what would you do ? At what point do we draw the line at checks and balances ? Do we have GSA auditors in every business Congress bails out. Do we as I said before institute a GS system of pay ? It is the question of our lifetimes to date. At 55 certainly the most signficant issue in my lifetime. Adherance to a free market economy means we let those that would fail - fail. A socialistic approach means we take taxpayer money (as we have with the financial industry) and give it to private industry. With or without strings ? I ask anyone reading this to tell me, because I sure as hell don't know.

B B

As to those workers who put in their time and are now retired ?  You can't change the past and nobody should try to. Pension levels and benefits have to be left untouched or there is no integrity in the bargaining process for the future. I for one would never vote for any contract if I saw the company I work for go back and change past contracts as to retiree items. Once you do that, the entire collective bargaining process is dead.

B B

[Markum]

SPOT ON BB!!

[iski]

Real estate holdings have been devalued, bank assets in turn have been devalued - hell's bells even oil/gas has been devalued.  Now other industries are quite possibly facing similar devaluations, including one of the USA sacred cows, the auto industry.  Several other devaluations come to mind as well but currently the auto industry is on the media bubble. For some reason (pollyanna thought process) it is not popular to consider that as major devaluations occur, they do not operate in a vacuum.  The domino effect is not pleasant since it ends up affecting the bottom as well as the top.  The current as well as future administrations along with Congress (God help us!) are working in their way to prevent this, slow it down, or control it in what they perceive to be a reasonable manner (wasting vast amounts of our tax monies).  So far it has not worked.  You can blame the present administration for it, you can blame Congress, you can blame the future politicians who are pre-playing their game, and you can stick your head in the sand & yell until your mouth fills with sand, but the fact remains - markets correct when they require corrections.  Regardless.  That brings change - real change - and some will profit and others will not.  It's worldwide but each country is mainly worried about their own hide - understandable.

[SPIDERMAN]

Real estate holdings have been devalued, bank assets in turn have been devalued - hell's bells even oil/gas has been devalued.  Now other industries are quite possibly facing similar devaluations, including one of the USA sacred cows, the auto industry.  Several other devaluations come to mind as well but currently the auto industry is on the media bubble. For some reason (pollyanna thought process) it is not popular to consider that as major devaluations occur, they do not operate in a vacuum.  The domino effect is not pleasant since it ends up affecting the bottom as well as the top.  The current as well as future administrations along with Congress (God help us!) are working in their way to prevent this, slow it down, or control it in what they perceive to be a reasonable manner (wasting vast amounts of our tax monies).  So far it has not worked.  You can blame the present administration for it, you can blame Congress, you can blame the future politicians who are pre-playing their game, and you can stick your head in the sand & yell until your mouth fills with sand, but the fact remains - markets correct when they require corrections.  Regardless.  That brings change - real change - and some will profit and others will not.  It's worldwide but each country is mainly worried about their own hide - understandable.

iski
       I always look forward to reading your posts and have great respect for your writing,but as regards the above, you're talking like a politician amigo. You've said a ton but not said anything at all. Could you do this ignorant old fool a favor and boil this down to something I can understand ?

B B

[iski]

iski
       I always look forward to reading your posts and have great respect for your writing,but as regards the above, you're talking like a politician amigo. You've said a ton but not said anything at all. Could you do this ignorant old fool a favor and boil this down to something I can understand ?

B B

BB,

I enjoy reading your posts also, and consider you to be much smarter than me (most are smarter than me) as a result.  Your posts led to my post above - my train of thought must have left the track somewhere along the way.



Heartlessly condensed:  Let 'em go bankrupt.  All of the Big 3.  Allow the market to correct.  Now. Quit spending our great grandkids future tax monies on market prevention boondoggles. 

The alternative (bailout) is quasi-socialism & the inefficiencies that would saddle us with are worse than the bankruptcies that will follow the Big 3 auto bankruptcies.  Let their assets be devalued & be done with it.  Should have done the same with the banks.


That will lead to a large number of other assets which are currently over valued to also be devalued =  Bankruptcies aplenty.  Suppose my main regret here is realizing all the bankruptcy lawyers who will benefit, but they went to school for it & are well positioned.  I digressed, dammit. 

That's the way it goes down if the government does not step in.  The government will more than likely step in, so these devaluations (bankruptcies) will be moved on down the line for a while.  At some point, unless we revert to nationalization of business assets as govt. policy, the markets will correct. Better now than later is the question?

Do I like this scenario?  Hell no!!!  It sucks & people will be hurt that do not deserve it.  Not fair.  Currently some politicians are pretending we can wish this away but it ain't happening.

Mike

[miker]

You mean to let capitalism run its course!  Pshaw! 

And let all this posturing and indignant harummphing from pols go to waste?

[SPIDERMAN]

Neal
       I see you reading this thread and I seriously hope you're not thinking about locking it.  This is not politics, this is our daily lives we're discussing here. The future of our country and the impact of decisions made in Washington on all of us. I know you have asked us not to discuss politics, but I truly feel this thread to be more than a political discussion. The majority of us who post on the site regularly have a lot of pent up angst as to financial markets, our jobs. businesses, the ecomomy - - what have you. This thread is a great venue for us to vent some of that angst.

Hopefully I'm just flapping my jaws and you're reading here because you're as interested in all of this as the rest of us are.

B B

[RJ749]

 THE AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT
Agreement reached on $15 billion plan to rescue GM, Chrysler

Automotive News | December 9, 2008 - 11:00 pm EST

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- The White House and congressional Democrats on Tuesday night reached an agreement in principle on a $15 billion proposal for bailing out U.S. automakers and forcing them to restructure or fail, officials said.

A Bush administration official and a Democratic leadership aide said the outline covered key points but final issues needed to be resolved and put in writing.

Democrats have arranged to have the House of Representatives vote on a bill as early as Wednesday and send it to the Senate for consideration.

President George W. Bush and President-elect Barack Obama were both urged by a key lawmaker to help rally support by Democrats and Republicans for the pending measure.

"Bipartisan hard work has paid off," said Democratic Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan whose home state headquarters General Motors, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC.

"I understand an agreement has been reached," Levin said in a statement.

The bailout is designed to allow GM and Chrysler to avert threatened bankruptcy through March with short-term loans. Ford Motor Co. is not requesting immediate help but would like a $9 billion line of credit in case its finances worsen.

The parties that negotiated the tentative deal agreed last week that the money would come from an Energy Department fund established in September to help Detroit make more fuel-efficient cars.

Proof of viability

The administration official said the negotiators satisfied the key White House concern in the talks that companies receiving aid obtain the necessary concessions and make other changes to prove they can survive and compete.

In addition to providing loans, the proposal would force automakers to answer to a presidentially appointed trustee -- or "car czar" -- and make the government their biggest shareholder.

The overseer will have powers to shape a restructuring of the companies, withholding further loans if progress toward a turnaround stalled.

A major provision would permit the czar to recommend a bankruptcy restructuring if companies borrowing money fail to obtain the necessary concessions.

Some Republicans wanted some sort of bankruptcy option included as an incentive for labor and other stakeholders to agree on givebacks.

The administration still opposes a Democratic bid to force automakers to drop lawsuits against California and other states seeking to cut auto emissions and other greenhouse gases. The administration official said it was his expectation the bill will not succeed unless that provision is struck.

Another issue raised by Republicans was the use of taxpayer money in the case of Chrysler, which is owned by private equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP. During the talks, Democratic aides said the administration resisted a bid to hold Cerberus liable for repayment if Chrysler defaulted on any loan.

It remains unclear if that matter still needs to be clarified.

Filibuster scenario

Democrats control Congress and were expected to be able to muscle a bill through the House. But it was unclear if Republicans could stop a measure in the Senate with a procedural roadblock that requires 60 votes to clear.

"Ball is in the Senate Republicans' court," said Jim Manley, a spokesman for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a Nevada Democrat. "There is no word yet whether they will give us consent."

A spokesman for Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, said he would decline comment until he saw the bill.

An auto bailout has evoked competing emotions in Congress.

Lawmakers fear if automakers collapse, it would deepen the U.S. recession. But many say market forces, not a government saddled with a record deficit, should determine their fate.

There also is reluctance to provide another federal rescue in the wake of the voter backlash against Congress for its passage of a $700 billion bailout for Wall Street in October.

At the same time, many argue that if Congress provided relief for millionaires in the U.S. financial industry, it should also help blue-collar autoworkers facing unemployment.

A poll by CBS News conducted last week found Americans split on whether taxpayer funds should help automakers.

But more than 65 percent said in exchange for any aid, the government should have a say in the automakers' management and require more fuel-efficient cars.



PRINTED FROM: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081209/ANA02/812099953/1197&template=printart

[grc]

...
As to those workers who put in their time and are now retired ?  You can't change the past and nobody should try to. Pension levels and benefits have to be left untouched or there is no integrity in the bargaining process for the future. I for one would never vote for any contract if I saw the company I work for go back and change past contracts as to retiree items. Once you do that, the entire collective bargaining process is dead.

B B

Unfortunately Brian, the mover's and shaker's in business and government don't seem to put much credence in that idea.  Promises mean nothing, even those made in signed contracts.  Don't forget, we have the Me generation running things in this country, and doing the right thing is not part of their mantra.  If anyone needs a reminder of how greedy and amoral the leaders in this country have become, check out the front page of just about any newspaper this morning and be amazed at the blatant abuse of power in Illinois.  I hope no one believes that is just an isolated situation.

Unless and until government forces big business to fully fund pensions and benefits, and then change laws to eliminate their ability to raid those funds and dump the responsibility on the PBGC by going bankrupt, every person with a defined benefit pension and/or medical benefit is at risk.  In the past it was steel and the airlines, now it will be the auto companies, next it will be ??  If the auto industry is allowed to fail, there surely will be many more to follow.  It's easy for those not directly affected (at least for the moment) to just say let 'em fail.  The problem I have with that, other than my previously disclosed self interest, is that the vast majority in the industry who will be heavily impacted are not responsible for the problems of the industry.  They are victims of poor management and poor government policy, and guess who doesn't suffer in a bankruptcy.

Oh well, we won't solve the problem here so I'll move on.  I would just remind folks who are quick to throw anchors instead of flotation devices that just because they are personally fortunate enough to not be immediately affected themselves doesn't mean that will always be the case.  Even if they work for themselves, odds are a major economic collapse will dump them right in the mess with the rest of us.  When we are all circling the drain, the anchor throwers will probably be singing a different tune.

BTW, buy American, while you still have that choice! 

Jerry

[iski]

You mean to let capitalism run its course!  Pshaw! 

And let all this posturing and indignant harummphing from pols go to waste?

Sometimes I dream the impossible dream......

[iski]

THE AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT
Agreement reached on $15 billion plan to rescue GM, Chrysler

Automotive News | December 9, 2008 - 11:00 pm EST

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- The White House and congressional Democrats on Tuesday night reached an agreement in principle on a $15 billion proposal for bailing out U.S. automakers and forcing them to restructure or fail, officials said.

A Bush administration official and a Democratic leadership aide said the outline covered key points but final issues needed to be resolved and put in writing.



In addition to providing loans, the proposal would force automakers to answer to a presidentially appointed trustee -- or "car czar" -- and make the government their biggest shareholder.

The overseer will have powers to shape a restructuring of the companies, withholding further loans if progress toward a turnaround stalled.

A major provision would permit the czar to recommend a bankruptcy restructuring if companies borrowing money fail to obtain the necessary concessions.

Some Republicans wanted some sort of bankruptcy option included as an incentive for labor and other stakeholders to agree on givebacks.

Gee, I hope this new "car czar" will be as effcient as the gummint drug czars have been

and

after the gummint blows $$??? billions, the 3 auto companies may get to go bankrupt anyway.


When oil companies failed in the 80's, the USA population was not interested in bailouts.  Same deal with the textile industry mass failures as well as other entire industries.  Times have changed.....

[RJ749]

Gee, I hope this new "car czar" will be as effcient as the gummint drug czars have been

and

after the gummint blows $$??? billions, the 3 auto companies may get to go bankrupt anyway.


When oil companies failed in the 80's, the USA population was not interested in bailouts.  Same deal with the textile industry mass failures as well as other entire industries.  Times have changed.....

Of any concern I have over the entire "bailout" it is the czar appointment.  I don't seem to recall good things when a czar of any kind is involved.  Maybe that's why we call them a czar in the first place.

[Mrs Rooster]

 Another one for Portland Oregon.

Premiere Ford, Beaverton Mitsubishi latest to close
by Jeff Manning, The Oregonian
Tuesday December 09, 2008, 10:15 PM
A dismal year for local auto dealers continued this week with the demise of two more dealerships and the layoff of more than 100 employees.

Premiere Ford in Gladstone shut down last Friday, putting 56 people out of work. Premiere owner Joe Khorasani said he intends to close his Beaverton Mitsubishi dealership later this week, idling another 45.

"We'd been trying to sell the store in the last couple months," said Khorasani, who bought Premiere Ford three years ago. "No one has the appetite to buy a dealership right now. It's a brutal, brutal time."

Ford Motor Co. will divvy up the approximately 150 new cars on the Premiere lot among other local Ford dealers. Those dealers will honor the service warranties of Premiere Ford customers, Khorasani said.

Khorasani said his two other operations -- Hyundai dealerships in Gladstone and Hillsboro -- will remain open.

Years after getting his start as a lot attendant at Ron Tonkin Chevrolet, Khorasani has never seen such a confluence of negative trends: wildly fluctuating gas prices, the stock market declines, mounting layoffs, and an inability by some dealers and consumers alike to get financing. Those factors have combined to drive many dealers out of the business.

"It's terrible," Khorasani said. "It's not a matter of trying to make a profit. It's a matter of survival."

Three years ago, Khorasani had five dealerships, 330 employees and annual sales of about $275 million. Now, he's down to two dealerships, 60 employees and annualized sales (based on the past three months) of between $20 million and $25 million.

"We had a good business plan, we cut expenses," Khorasani said. "But if we can't get money from our finance company, we can't make it."

It's ironic, Khorasani said, that the Big Three automakers are going hat-in-hand to the federal government for enormous loans to stay alive when their own finance companies won't loan money to their dealers. Khorasani shut down his Lincoln-Mercury dealership on Southwest Canyon Road three months ago.

The closure of Khorasani's Ford and Mitsubishi stores brings to 21 the number of Oregon auto dealerships to close this year.

Khorasani said he still owes about $30,000 in commissions to his sales staff at Premiere Ford. But he won't be able to pay them until the sales close, which he estimated will be about Dec. 20.

Customers of Premiere Ford or Beaverton Mitsubishi with questions can get additional information at 503-353-0800.

-- Jeff Manning

[Hugh Janis]

Come on guys, this is in the humor section!

Early transportation barons were in shipping and railroads.  Made instant millionaires out of many.  These were replaced by airlines and automobiles.  Again, made instant millionaires out of many.  It was painful when the railroads began shutting down now it's happening to banks and automakers.  It's the natural cycle of economics and should be allowed to progress.  I've never bought a new car or truck in my life.  I shouldn't feel obligated now (even with my tax dollars)

[iski]

Jim,

The idea of a "car czar" is funny, except for the part where it's not funny.......

Mike

[miker]

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have.
The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.

- Thomas Jefferson

We could not socilize medicine without gnashing of teeth and beating of breastses but car czar, no problemo. 

[grc]

Of any concern I have over the entire "bailout" it is the czar appointment.  I don't seem to recall good things when a czar of any kind is involved.  Maybe that's why we call them a czar in the first place.

I was wondering just what the qualifications would be for that job.  Will it be necessary to know anything at all about the auto industry, or will any political hack do?  After the comments he made about the current administration, I rather doubt  they will ask Iacocca.

Jerry

[RJ749]

I was wondering just what the qualifications would be for that job.  Will it be necessary to know anything at all about the auto industry, or will any political hack do?  After the comments he made about the current administration, I rather doubt  they will ask Iacocca.

Jerry

He said to let the companies work it out without a Czar like he did.

[RJ749]

Just in, the bail out is in trouble with Republicans.

[CVOJOE]

This is going to get ugly.

  Roger nailed it, thus endeth the lesson. 

[SPIDERMAN]

Maybe it's just me, but if they ever find out who killed Jimmy Hoffa they should give them a medal. Labor Unions came into being because of greedy bastards like the Corporate CEO's who keep showing up in Washington with their hands out. Unions were a good thing and wage and salary scales were within reason. Then along comes the mob and the unions became just another racket and the whole country jumped on the anti-union bandwagon when President Reagan (a man I respect and admire) broke PATCO. So here we are, at the mercy of Corporations so large and powerful that their demise becomes a matter of National Security. CEO's who make more money in one year than even the highest paid UAW worker couldn't hope to earn in two lifetimes. And who are we jealous of ?  The guy in the union. Fine then, bankrupt the country to save the company. Makes sense to me. 

B B

[RJ749]

U.S. House passes auto aid
Next up: Senate, where prospect is less certain


Harry Stoffer
     
 
 
WASHINGTON -- The House of Representatives approved emergency U.S. aid for Detroit's automakers, setting up a showdown in the Senate where prospects for passage are less certain.
The legislation would provide an immediate $14 billion in loans to prevent the collapse of General Motors and Chrysler LLC and set the stage for government stakes in automakers and Washington-directed restructurings.
The Wednesday night House vote, 237-170 in favor, was expected.
"We are hastily reacting to very fast-moving events," said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., at the outset of the House debate.
 
 

[grc]

..................................................................... CEO's who make more money in one year than even the highest paid UAW worker couldn't hope to earn in two lifetimes. And who are we jealous of ?  The guy in the union. ......................................
B B

Yup, makes a lot more sense to blame that overpaid and underworked union guy instead of the greedy CEO or government incompetents & crooks for all our economic problems.  The fact that any such argument wouldn't hold water for more than a second doesn't seem to keep lots of folks from making the argument, however.

I've been reading lots of letters to the editor in the local newspaper lately from folks who don't have union jobs, like the one today where a gentleman said he made $13 an hour and didn't see why his taxes should help bail out those overpaid UAW members with the gravy jobs.  Well, first he needs to understand that the $73 per hour number thrown around in the media isn't real, it's a calculation that uses all labor related expenses, including all retiree costs, and divides that number by the current year's production hours.  When you have an old corporation like GM that has shrunk dramatically over the past 20 years, it's not surprising that retirees outnumber active employees.  That situation will definitely skew that labor cost calculation.  The truth is that the typical seniority employee working on the assembly line makes roughly $26 per hour (52k per annum).  That is a pretty decent wage, but it isn't going to make anyone wealthy.  And that wage only applies to seniority workers; the labor contract has had a dual wage clause for many years now whereby new employees start out at roughly half the senior employees wage scale.  As for the gravy job, if that was actually true then why is it that we constantly had problems trying to hire and keep new employees?  Unlike the old days when a new hire was signed up, given a physical, and started working the same day, in my last 10 years we had prescreening performed, then we put them through a full week orientation and physical training program before they set foot on the plant floor.  After all of that, we lost half the applicants in the first week and between 80% and 90% over the first month.  So much for gravy train, do nothing jobs.

All I ask is that this country treat all of us fairly and equally.  If we as a country do not want to help the manufacturing sector survive, so be it.  But we need to take back all those billions that have been handed out to those crooks who don't make a damned thing and just sit around moving money around the board while slicing off a percentage for themselves.  Talk about your overpaid, do nothing jobs.

Jerry

[RJ749]

 When you have an old corporation like GM that has shrunk dramatically over the past 20 years, it's not surprising that retirees outnumber active employees.  

How many UAW members work at the companies that will be a part of this year’s auto talks?

There are 180,681 UAW members employed at Chrysler, Ford and General Motors. Of these, 177,498 are covered by the national agreements that will expire Sept. 14, 2007. The remaining 3,183 UAW members at Chrysler Jeep in Toledo, Ohio, negotiate a local contract distinct from the national agreement. Certain Delphi employees who have rights under the GM Benefit Guarantee also will be affected by the outcome of these negotiations.

An additional 419,621 retired members and 120,723 surviving spouses will also be covered by the agreements negotiated this year. Their pension payments and retiree health care benefits are subject to the terms of the UAW national auto industry agreements

WOW, Jerry you said it.  540,344 retirees and surviving spouses.  That's a big load to pull with 178,000 workers.

[hard10]

How many UAW members work at the companies that will be a part of this year’s auto talks?
...
WOW, Jerry you said it.  540,344 retirees and surviving spouses.  That's a big load to pull with 178,000 workers.

Is this not the exact problem that "we the people" have been talking about since the Regan era? As the population gets older, those still employed are going to have to pay the load. Therein lies the problem with the Social Security System as we know it.

[grc]

Is this not the exact problem that "we the people" have been talking about since the Regan era? As the population gets older, those still employed are going to have to pay the load. Therein lies the problem with the Social Security System as we know it.

Yes indeed.  We wouldn't have this problem if those pesky people would just drop dead at 65 like they used to, but with all the advances in medical intervention there are just too many people living past traditional retirement age.  I don't know of an easy answer, since I'm guessing not many folks will voluntarily agree to kick the bucket to make life easier for the kids.  Too bad our "leaders" chose to ignore this problem along with the excessive debt (private and government) problem.  Seems our government leaders are guilty of the same short sighted management as those folks in the auto business.  Gives me a lot of confidence in them being able to tell Detroit how to run the show. 

Jerry

[hard10]

Yes indeed.  We wouldn't have this problem if those pesky people would just drop dead at 65 like they used to, but with all the advances in medical intervention there are just too many people living past traditional retirement age.  I don't know of an easy answer, since I'm guessing not many folks will voluntarily agree to kick the bucket to make life easier for the kids.  Too bad our "leaders" chose to ignore this problem along with the excessive debt (private and government) problem.  Seems our government leaders are guilty of the same short sighted management as those folks in the auto business.  Gives me a lot of confidence in them being able to tell Detroit how to run the show. 

Jerry

There ya go Jerry! You've just solved the problem! Make the drug companies that produce all those meds pay for the additional expense. You're a genius.

[RJ749]

Fred Thompson has the answer:

[iski]

"telling a fat man the only way to lose weight is to eat more donuts."

"Ask not what your country can spend for you, ask what you can spend for your country."

Fred has some serious medicine in his satirical video.  Hmmmmmmm..........

1 sorta extreme solution:

[FLSTFI Dave]

Gee, I hope this new "car czar" will be as effcient as the gummint drug czars have been

and

after the gummint blows $$??? billions, the 3 auto companies may get to go bankrupt anyway.


When oil companies failed in the 80's, the USA population was not interested in bailouts.  Same deal with the textile industry mass failures as well as other entire industries.  Times have changed.....

Oil industry does not have unions.  Textile union was weak were there was one.

Detroit Auto companies have the most powerful Union, the UAW.  It's in the Dems interest to keep the troubled three afloat, so the UAW can stay in business and keep funding the Democrats....

[iski]

Oil industry does not have unions.  Textile union was weak were there was one.

Detroit Auto companies have the most powerful Union, the UAW.  It's in the Dems interest to keep the troubled three afloat, so the UAW can stay in business and keep funding the Democrats....

Exactly. A bailout is a sop to the UAW.  The Big 3 CEOs are dancing to the tune of their unions for the benefit of Congress.  Bankruptcy looms after massive monies are wasted.

Difficult to tell who is more corrupt: the gummint, unions, their lobbyists, or the CEOs.  Not difficult to figure out who will pay: us, our kids, our grandkids, their kids......


About 5 years ago, noticed some folks I knew/worked with were retiring out of the USA.  They are ahead of the curve.

[miker]

http://belizeretirement.org/


With enough interest maybe Cvo City. 

Tax Breaks
Peaceful Nation
English Speaking
Good Educational System
Sub-tropical Climate all Year Long
Easy Access to Land for Development and Construction of Retirement Home
Close Proximity to the US, Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean
Strong Stable Belize Dollar
Abundance of Natural Resources
Breathtakingly Beautiful
Friendly People

[SPIDERMAN]

Exactly. A bailout is a sop to the UAW.  The Big 3 CEOs are dancing to the tune of their unions for the benefit of Congress.  Bankruptcy looms after massive monies are wasted.

Difficult to tell who is more corrupt: the gummint, unions, their lobbyists, or the CEOs.  Not difficult to figure out who will pay: us, our kids, our grandkids, their kids......


About 5 years ago, noticed some folks I knew/worked with were retiring out of the USA.  They are ahead of the curve.

Yeah some of them even bought shorefront property in Mexico, built beautiful homes on it and then had the Mexican government pass a law that no foreigner could own land within 5 miles of the ocean and about 250 Americans lost their life savings. If you think I have no trust of my own government, my trust of any foreign government is even less. I'll stay here in the USA no matter how bad it gets, go live in Appalachia with Otis, Hubbard and the HBRR in the wintah and up in Maine in the summah.

B B

[Hugh Janis]

My Brother has a plan to retire to New Zealand.  Maybe he's into sheep.

[iski]

Better than sheep being into him, I suppose.


Remember reading about those Americans in Mexico getting bumped off the beach.  Venezuela (with those low cost islands) is no longer a garden spot for retirees either.


One of my plans was to retire to sunny, warm, Antarctica, but the global warming deal just is not moving fast enough.

Belize sounds nice.....

[RJ749]

My Brother has a plan to retire to New Zealand.  Maybe he's into sheep.

Awfully nice down there and not too many people.

Not sure on the exchange or expense of living.

[miker]

I still prefer to be attached to a continent, islands are small unless it is a continent.
Australia maybe.

[RJ749]

Sweden unveils auto aid; no state buyout
Volvo, Saab welcome state aid
Sweden's automakers have reacted positively to their government's plans to provide up to 25 billion kronor (2.36 billion euros) in credit guarantees and emergency loans.
Volvo and Saab said they would decide in the next few days whether to apply for any of the funding that was announced Thursday.
Eric Geers, spokesman for Saab, told Automotive News Europe: "We are extremely positive. We have to work out the details, but this is a good step from the government with whom we have been having good discussions."
Geers said it was too early to say whether Saab would be applying for any of the funding, although it is thought the General Motors-owned brand will apply for some money.
Volvo was also happy about the announcement, which it said would also help suppliers.

[arcticdude]

I still prefer to be attached to a continent, islands are small unless it is a continent.
Australia maybe.

Oz is a nice place, but they must import essentially everything but sheep.  The weirdest thing we experienced was the lack of drinkable water.  You'd think, being a large island, there'd be lots of water.  There is, but it's brackish enough that you can't really drink it.  Food is quite expensive, but it does help keep you thin!   No where's near as many fat people.  Everybody lives on or near the coasts.  No real highway system, as we're used to.  They have no basic production system.  No steel works, no plastics, no mining, nothing near what the states have.  A coke in McDonald's is $2.50 for a small.  Exchange rate is about 1:1.  I'd like to go back and see the western areas.  Still a neat place to see, though.  No gun ownership, to speak of.  Crime rate is close to ours.  While we were there last year, an off duty cop had the snot beat out of him by a bunch of 14 year olds in Melbourne.  Just because he was walking threw downtown with his girlfriend.  Weird to eat a "sheepdog".  What looks like a hotdog, but it's made of mutton.

Even with all our current problems, the states are tough to beat.

[SPIDERMAN]

Drifting off topic to a degree, but in keeping with our discussion of free market economy. I was thinking today about the way people like member Icybay operate their business. Icybay for those of you who don't know him operates a fleet of fishing boats, one of which (Icybay) fishes crab out of Dutch Harbor in the Bering Sea (as in Deadliest Catch) Now as I understand it, the pay system works on dividing up the profit of the trip via a formula whereby the boat owner gets his expenses paid and a share, the captain gets a share and the crew share a percentage of the rest in equal shares with newbies (greenhorns) getting 1/2 share. If you've seen the show, you know that the crew members make anywhere from $5k to $20k for a 10 day trip. It's not a stretch to think that a guy like Icybay could offer a flat $2,500 per trip and find plenty of takers for the positions aboard the boats. He'd more than double his profits and the guys working for him would still be making $250/day which is pretty good money for a lot of people. But that industry doesn't work that way. It's a system built on hard work and a fair system of sharing the profit. Imagine of every business in the USA operated the same way ?

Just food for thought

B B

[RJ749]

I guess in the short term we'll now see what effect the failure of the bailout may have:

Automotive News

THE AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT

Industry aid fails in the Senate


Reid predicts a "very, very bad Christmas for many Americans"

Harry Stoffer

Automotive News | December 11, 2008 - 10:43 pm EST
UPDATED: 12/11/08 11:57 p.m EST


WASHINGTON -- A bill to provide emergency loans to Detroit automakers is dead for now, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said late Thursday.

“We have not been able to get this over the finish line,” Reid said.

Reid said he dreads what will happen on Wall Street on Friday. “It’s not going to be a pretty sight,’’ he said. He also said the failure of negotiations will mean a “a very, very bad Christmas” for many Americans.

General Motors and Chrysler LLC say they need federal loans to avoid running out of cash within weeks.

``We are deeply disappointed that agreement could not be reached tonight in the Senate despite the best bipartisan efforts,’’ GM said in a statement. ``We will assess all of our options to continue our restructuring and to obtain the means to weather the current economic crisis.’’

Economists, researchers and some lawmakers have warned that failure of one or more of the car companies will shatter a U.S. economy already in recession.

Markets across the Asia-Pacific region were down more than three percent after news the talks had collapsed, with Japan's Nikkei average and Hong Kong's Hang Seng both down more than five percent.

U.S. crude prices fell by nearly $2 to $46.11 a barrel.

The White House said it would evaluate its options in light of the collapse of the bailout legislation.

White House spokesman Tony Fratto declined to say what those options included. The Bush administration has resisted Democrats' past demands to use some money from the $700 billion bailout package approved in October to help struggling financial institutions to help the automakers.

Reid’s assessment followed a day of negotiations in which senators tried to reconcile a House-passed bill that had been negotiated by the Bush White House and Democratic leaders of Congress with an alternative favored by some Senate Republicans.

Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, blamed the UAW for being unwilling to accept GOP demands that Detroit 3 workers accept parity in pay, benefits and work rules with import-brand factory employees.

Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., author of the GOP alternative, said workers would not accept a deadline for the parity demand.

"We are three words away" from a deal, Corker said.

Senate Banking Chairman Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., said the failure of negotiations was political, but he worries what it will mean for the broader economy.

Together the Detroit 3 CEOs say they need at least $34 billion in federal money to get through the economic downturn.

A subsequent procedural vote confirmed Reid’s assessments. Sixty “yes” votes were needed to move ahead with industry-aid legislation. The vote was 52-35 in favor of aid.

Some options for the industry remain.

Congress could come back early next year -- when Democrats have a wider majority in the Senate -- with new legislation.

Or the Bush administration could relent and decide at any time to make direct loans to automakers from the $700 billion that has been approved for rescue of the financial system.

Democratic lawmakers have maintained all along that the administration had that authority. Reid reaffirmed that view Thursday night.

Some lawmakers have contended that the Federal Reserve always has authority under laws enacted during the Great Depression to make emergency loans to almost any economically important entity that can’t get credit elsewhere.

Reuters contributed to this report

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081211/ANA02/812112862/1200

[RJ749]

.

[RJ749]

AUTOMOTIVE NEWS EDITORIAL

The president must act

Keith Crain
and Peter Brown
Automotive News | December 12, 2008 - 11:25 am EST

Amid the greatest financial crisis of our time, President George W. Bush can show leadership and statesmanship by using a small percentage of the U.S. government’s financial bailout money to keep the American automobile industry alive.

The warnings from Chrysler LLC and General Motors about impending collapse were not a bluff. Now that a minority of the U.S. Senate has blocked any aid to the auto industry, all Americans must rely on the administration to lend the automakers money so they can help fix a damaged economy, rather than drive it down to awful depths.

As White House spokeswoman Dana Perino correctly said this morning, “A precipitous collapse of this industry would have a severe impact on our economy, and it would be irresponsible to further weaken and destabilize our economy at this time.”

The White House reversed itself this morning. It said it is now considering using some of the $700 billion in financial rescue money for the auto industry. This could be one of Bush’s finest hours.

The sudden failure of the industry, superimposed over a global credit meltdown and a terrifyingly deep recession, would be catastrophic. Look beyond the automakers to their suppliers and dealers, and the communities in which domestic auto plants drive the local economy. Millions of people would be thrown out of work, would lose health insurance and would lose the ability to pay taxes.

The loans would be the best, cheapest and most efficient stimulus package the government can provide.

Last night’s shocking failure of the Senate to approve $14 billion in loans to Chrysler and GM came as enough Republicans tried to micromanage the automakers’ future. Sen. Bob Corker, the Tennessee Republican, actually proposed some useful ideas about how various requirements attached to government aid could help the automakers restructure debt and make labor costs more competitive.

But the Republicans’ ultimate support never came, and they refused to cut off debate and allow a vote.

Corker’s ideas still could be a basis for a viable industry. But not if the industry dies. In its precarious state, the industry could be permanently undone by precipitous plant closings, lending defaults and refusal of suppliers to ship parts for fear of lack of payment.

The next Congress and the Obama administration will have plenty of opportunity to attach as many requirements as are prudent to additional government loans. They can paint villains and assign blame. For now, President Bush must step in, or push the entire economy into a downward spiral.

We encourage him to act in the interest of all Americans and keep this industry alive.

You may e-mail Peter Brown at pbrown@crain.com

[Hugh Janis]

Not just the US......

Canadian Auto Workers also refused concessions.

Sweden's government approved a $3B bailout for Saab and Volvo yesterday.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2008/12/11/saab-volvo-bailout-markets-equity-cx_je_1211markets13.html

It's happening thoughout Europe

[Admiral]

And you call this humor ?   

[RJ749]

No one is immune.



Toyota Delays Mississippi Prius Factory Amid Slump

Toyota Motor Corp. has indefinitely delayed a plant in Mississippi that was slated to start making its Prius hybrid sedan in May 2010, the latest sign that even foreign auto makers are scaling back North American operations. Toyota approved the plant in 2007, when sales were booming and foreign makers were racing to expand production to grab market share from the Big Three U.S. car companies. But the recession and plunge in industry sales to crisis levels are forcing even healthier car companies to retreat. "The market turned on Toyota just like it turned on the Big Three," said Rebecca Lindland, an analyst at IHS Global Insight, a forecasting firm. Toyota's Mississippi plant, near Tupelo, was originally supposed to build the Highlander sport-utility vehicle. When gasoline prices soared in the spring, it pushed the start of production to May 2010 from late 2009 and then said the plant would produce the Prius instead. The latest delay means that the Prius will continue to be produced exclusively in Japan. Last month, Toyota reported a 69% drop in net profit globally for its fiscal second quarter and slashed its full-year profit forecast by more than half.Source: The Wall Street Journal (Subscription required.)

[HogBreath]

..

[RJ749]

Yep...........

Treasury Still Studying Auto Rescue

WASHINGTON – The U.S. Treasury Department said Monday it has made no decisions on how to engineer a rescue effort for U.S. auto makers, while President Bush gave assurances that help is on the way. "An abrupt bankruptcy for autos could be devastating for the economy," Mr. Bush told reporters... "We're now in the process of working with the stakeholders on a way forward. We're not quite ready to announce that yet." Meanwhile, Treasury spokesman Brookly McLaughlin told reporters that department officials, who are working closely with the White House on the issue, are still studying pertinent data. In weighing a much larger rescue effort for U.S. auto makers than originally envisioned, the Bush administration faces a complex set of decisions over what terms to seek -- including whether to push the companies to file for bankruptcy -- and how to raise necessary funds. The administration is trying to determine how much money it will take to help the car companies, and is discussing a rescue totaling $10 billion to $40 billion or more. The Bush administration must also figure out whether, and how, to try to wring concessions from affected parties, including factory workers, dealers and holders of the companies' debt. Without such concessions, the companies are likely to need cash infusions long into the future, congressional critics say. The Bush administration can try to demand concessions upfront as a condition for making initial rescue loans. But it is unlikely Treasury can extract concessions from all the affected parties as part of a loan deal.
Source:  The Wall Street Journal

[RJ749]

The news isn't getting any better on the Big 3 Front:

THE U.S. AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT

Chrysler's plant closings add to bailout pressure

DETROIT/WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Chrysler's decision to halt factory operations for at least a month put new pressure on the Bush administration to quickly help cash-strapped automakers.
The shutdown beginning on Friday will idle plants in the United States, Canada and Mexico that produce vehicles for the Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge brands.
More than 30,000 unionized workers at U.S. factories will receive nearly full wages and benefits during the shutdown, which Chrysler said was prompted by ongoing financial stress worsened by the global credit crunch and dwindling sales.
The move to save money underscored the urgency of pleas by Chrysler and General Motors for an immediate bailout they say is their best hope for near-term survival.
GM has said it would cut first-quarter ...  story  Published: December 18, 2008 07:00 European Central time
 

[spydglide]

Isn't this similar to what the MoCo did recently to reduce supply to the shrinking market?    spyder

[Coolbreeze]

The news isn't getting any better on the Big 3 Front:

THE U.S. AUTO INDUSTRY BAILOUT

Chrysler's plant closings add to bailout pressure

DETROIT/WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Chrysler's decision to halt factory operations for at least a month put new pressure on the Bush administration to quickly help cash-strapped automakers.
The shutdown beginning on Friday will idle plants in the United States, Canada and Mexico that produce vehicles for the Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge brands.
More than 30,000 unionized workers at U.S. factories will receive nearly full wages and benefits during the shutdown, which Chrysler said was prompted by ongoing financial stress worsened by the global credit crunch and dwindling sales.
The move to save money underscored the urgency of pleas by Chrysler and General Motors for an immediate bailout they say is their best hope for near-term survival.
GM has said it would cut first-quarter ...  story  Published: December 18, 2008 07:00 European Central time
 

there's the whole problem,,,   "nearly full wages and bennies during shut down...."   what a crock.

[Fired00d]

there's the whole problem,,,   "nearly full wages and bennies during shut down...."   what a crock.

Really, where is the savings in that?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[spydglide]

well, the old mantra 'suck it dry' comes to mind.    spyder

[Fired00d]

well, the old mantra 'suck it dry' comes to mind.    spyder

Don don't let any of your voices comment.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[arcticdude]

Really, where is the savings in that?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

The savings comes from less parts bought, less electricity burned, fewer worker's comp claims, etc, etc.  What they're doing is killing off the suppliers, moreso than truly helping themselves.  It's a deep hole they've gotten themselves into.

[Fired00d]

The savings comes from less parts bought, less electricity burned, fewer worker's comp claims, etc, etc.  What they're doing is killing off the suppliers, moreso than truly helping themselves.  It's a deep hole they've gotten themselves into.

True dat. Then when they start production again and can't get parts because the suppliers have had to shut down then they'll be shut down again. Vicious cycle they are starting.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[RJ749]

Really, where is the savings in that?

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

Power water lights and not paying for cars sitting around I guess, plus trying to get days supply in line with sales.

[SPIDERMAN]

The big three are giving the USA stock options in exchange for this bailout.

Sounds like the best deal since we got New York for some beads - - - - NOT!

B B

[RJ749]

The big three are giving the USA stock options in exchange for this bailout.

Sounds like the best deal since we got New York for some beads - - - - NOT!

B B

There you go


Toyota Vehicle Operations to Post Loss
Toyota's mainstay vehicle operations are likely to post their first ever loss for the fiscal year through March 2009, highlighting the dire conditions faced by global automakers. According to the Associated Press, Toyota's standalone operating result will be a loss for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2009. The Toyota group of companies will manage to post a profit for the fiscal year through March 2009. Toyota is forecasting a 550 billion yen ($6.2 billion) profit, less than a third of what it racked up the previous fiscal year, on 23 trillion yen ($258.4 billion) sales, down 12.5 percent on year. Toyota has never reported a full fiscal year loss since it began disclosing operating profit in 1941. But Japanese automakers are getting hammered by plunging auto sales in the key U.S. market and elsewhere. The surging yen, which erodes overseas earnings, have also battered their bottom line. The dollar has fallen to 13-year lows below 90 yen. "It looks as though Toyota will fall into red ink for the full year," said Mamoru Katou, auto analyst at Tokai Tokyo Research. "Things have clearly gotten worse since the earlier outlook of breaking even." For more on Toyota's outlook, click here.

[Admiral]

Toyota Vehicle Operations to Post Loss
Toyota's mainstay vehicle operations are likely to post their first ever loss for the fiscal year through March 2009,

The dollar has fallen to 13-year lows below 90 yen. "It looks as though Toyota will fall into red ink for the full year," said Mamoru Katou, auto analyst at Tokai Tokyo Research. "Things have clearly gotten worse since the earlier outlook of breaking even." For more on Toyota's outlook, click here.

Buy American while you still can !!!

 

[SPIDERMAN]

Somewhere in this thread, somebody quotes 178,000 current UAW jobs. During Ronald Reagan's presidency, the total of US Shipyard workers was at least that if not more. The majority of those workers belonged to a union called UMSWA. The Reagan administration tried mightily to push through congress legislation aimed at keeping American Shipyards competative with foreign yards. At best, they were able to offer some subsidies to American companies that had their ships built in the USA and also President Reagan wanted a very large Navy fleet. But after Reagan left office, all effort to retain America's ability to build ships ceased. UMSWA went out of business and what few shipyard jobs there are left in the USA are primarily non-union or lumped in with other unions. The point being, the demise of the major shipyard union did nothing to preserve jobs. What galls me is that well over 150,000 jobs were lost in the ensuing years and nobody cared. There are less than 30,000 shipbuilders in our nation as I write this. That's the cost of a free market economy. And you know, I agree. If the USA is to be a true free market economy business has to sink or swim on it's own. Our government cannot go around Nationalising corporate America or we cease to become what we are. But yet we find ourselves engaged in a level of corporate socialism unprecedented in the history of our nation. Even during the great depression, the central government's efforts did not fall to bailing out failing businesses, but rather to create government entities such as the WPA and the CCC aimed at creating jobs while the private sector made whatever corrections were needed and began to reivive. Many of our nations greatest infrastructure projects came about with WPA and CCC workers. The media and the politicians have done a great job of diverting our attention from the true crisis we find ourselves in at this time. Are we truly a free nation or we to become a socialist nation. Are we to move into the future using the business/government model of Japan, Taiwan and Korea as our guide ? It is not taxpayer dollars being spent here my friends it is our very soul as a nation.

B B

[icybay]

BB, I agree.  And it will be next to impossible to resurrect the water dependent industries after the land is urbanized.  Look at Portland, the waterfront is almost all condos now, once banished the fishing fleet will never be able to return.

If I may quote a Nobel-laurate economist " The bailout was like a massive transfusion to a patient suffering from internal bleeding, and nothing was being done about the source of the problem. " 


Disclaimer  Hey, I didn't start this non motorcycle related thread that may border on  the "P" word

[RJ749]

It won't take long to know if this "loan" is in fact that or if it is a "grant".

First quarter of 2009 will tell.  The one thing that is for sure is the auto industry has the flu and no one is immune.  With speculation that Toyota will be in the red soon the elimination of over capacity which has driven dealer profit lower may finally get controlled to allow the industry to restructure the dealer count and make the industry viable for the manufacturers that survive as well as the dealers that do.

As to the political nature of all of this, it isn't any longer one or another party that will solve this, it is the entire country and the politicians that need to get a grip on it.  Regardless, if we all cacoon and stop spending, our economy now based on consumerism is going to go through some serious constriction and it will take a long time to recover.

[grc]

............................... Are we truly a free nation or we to become a socialist nation. Are we to move into the future using the business/government model of Japan, Taiwan and Korea as our guide ? It is not taxpayer dollars being spent here my friends it is our very soul as a nation.

B B

In a perfect world and a perfect situation I would agree with you Brian.  Unfortunately, we as a nation cannot continue to allow our industries to die at the altar of "free market economics".  We are forced to compete with others who are being heavily subsidized and supported by their governments (and even our own government, as in huge tax breaks to locate plants here).  We have not had a level playing field with Japan since WWII, for instance, and now we have Korea and China with heavy government subsidies and currency manipulation taking our jobs.  The entire globalization and free trade agenda has had one underlying goal that is never spoken about in public, but it's there just the same.  Working people in this country and other high wage countries will continue to see their jobs exported to third world, low wage countries until a new equilibrium is reached.  Rather than bring the rest of the world up to our wage levels, we will be dragged down to theirs.  The end result is a return to the 2 class system of 200 years ago.  Maybe we should rename our branches of government to reflect the new vision; the Lords and the Commons, or since that has already been taken perhaps the Haves and the Have Nots.

BTW, when all the shipyards are gone, all the aircraft manufacturers are gone, all the other big manufacturers are gone (including Harley-Davidson), and all we have left in this country are a bunch of slick con artists shuffling other people's money around and taking a percentage, how long do you really think we will remain a military or economic power? 

Jerry

Icybay: the mention of Harley-Davidson should put this thread back in the "approved" column.

[SBB]

BTW, when all the shipyards are gone, all the aircraft manufacturers are gone, all the other big manufacturers are gone (including Harley-Davidson), and all we have left in this country are a bunch of slick con artists shuffling other people's money around and taking a percentage, how long do you really think we will remain a military or economic power? 

Jerry

When they are all gone we can work for Walmart, Taco Bell, Wendy's, or McDonalds!
That should be very productive!

 

[icybay]

Chip, by the time Harley Davidson is gone (to China), we can just sit back and collect our inflation adjusted Social Security checks and live the good life- that's what they told us anyway when we were paying into the system!

[graygost267]

GRC:  I agree with you 100%.  I would suggest that a good start to cleaning up the mess is to kick out the bastards that are pissing away our money and we have no say so.  The people in Congress and the Senate are getting good pay to manage the financial well being of this country.  If they can't or won't do their job, get them the hell out of office.  It5 is not Bush's job to oversee Wall Street or the other gov't agencies, it is the Congress and Senate's responsibility to manage the financial interests of this country.  Bush's primary job is to keep this country safe and maintain a strong military top protect the US interests. I'm angry that they - the Congress and Senate - have allowed this country to sink to the level it is at and they are allowed to stay in office so they can f*** up even more programs that affect the population.  Now they want to raise gasoline taxes because the revenues that were generated when prices were high are not bringing in the revenues that they once did.  The reason - people are driving less and riding smaller cars and motorcycles.  Next - Barney Frank wants to cut the military budget by 25%.  Now that makes me mad a hell.  I say that we get that worthless piece of S**t out of office and every other congressmen like Murtha and send them to Iraq or Afghanistan for a couple of years and see how they like it.  I had better shut up before I say what I think and get into trouble.  Getting down off my soap box. 

[SPIDERMAN]

Some interesting posts on this thread. Well thought out and well written (spoken) posts. I think we need a national debate on this issue. It is the pervading issue of our time. We as a nation must decide if we are to become a socialist nation on par with Canada and England on health care and social issues and Japan/Korea on economic/business issues. We cannot simply bail out one industry and ignore others. I mention shipbuilding because it is near and dear to my heart having spent 28 years in the business, but the auto industry is but the tip of the iceburg. We need to shore up our steel industry, and a 100 other heavy manufacturing industrys. Industrial capacity and superiority built this great nation and saw it through two world militray conflicts. The way things stand today as I write this we have allowed so many heavy industries to locate "offshore" I am not even certain we have the capability to protect ourselves if another world conflict were to occur. We could lose the battle before it began simply by having our supplies of durable and consumable goods cut off. My posts on this topic have not been to argue that we as a nation should not make all effort to save the auto industry, but rather that we need to take the steps necessary to rebuild our industrial base. And if that means tariffs levied against goods from China and third world nations that reduce  their ability to undercut home grown industry then so be it. We are the only nation on earth who allows every one to sell their goods here without tax or tariff and yet our own products are taxed into obscurity in those same nations. Quid pro quo. Not exactly a new concept is it since those words are latin and the language hasn't been spoken in thousands of years. I urge each of you to write (e-mail) your elected officials and speak your mind regarding our economy. I have sent e-mails to California's two Senators and received acknowledgement that they were received and read. Not that I expect Senators Boxer or Feinstein read my e-mails themselves, but the response from their aids indicated that they did indeed read what I wrote.
    I remember the America of my youth. I ask myself why we've allowed it to become what it is today and I have no answers. However, I believe that we are in the midst of a crisis of great enough import to actually gain the attention of our elected officials to the need for change. And I'm not talking the kind of change that was discussed during the recent Presidential election, but change in a return to the things that made our nation what it was when the majority of us on this site were children.

B B

[graygost267]

    Here - here Spiderman. Again you have hit on the very essence of the problem.  We, as a nation, have allowed ourselves to be swayed from the basics that were used in forming this country.  Our moral fiber has degraded to the point that God can no longer be uttered in public for fear of offending a few minority citizens and our judicial system is a joke and legislates from the bench.  The Congress and the Senate are both guilty for the exodus of our industrial base to oversees areas.  No longer can the majority influence the laws that are passed in this country.  It is the minority.  Take for instance the Proposition 8 that was just passed in California.  The people spoke and said that marriage can only be lawful if it is between a man and a woman.  Now the Gay community is up in arms about the vote and the CA Attorney General has changed his mind and says the Proposition 8 is unconstitutional after first supporting the Proposition.  Our founding fathers would have considered homosexuality as an abomination and a sin against God.  Why have we - the people - allowed such actions to take place?  We are to blame for putting people into office that have no moral stature and certainly have no thought for the people they represent.  Mercy -  I could go on all night, but now I have to get ready to go to bed so that I can go to work tomorrow and pay my taxes so the poor middle class in this country can get their welfare check - I mean tax rebate - when they paid no taxes to begin with.  We are in for some tough times my friend and we have not seen the worst of it I fear.        Stepping down for now.

[Coolbreeze]

Not to say that you guys don't have a lot of really interesting, albeit depressing things to say, but ....   isn't this a humor thread?    IOf this is what passes for humor nowdays, I'm just gonna keep cryin' in the corner... 

[grc]

Not to say that you guys don't have a lot of really interesting, albeit depressing things to say, but ....   isn't this a humor thread?    IOf this is what passes for humor nowdays, I'm just gonna keep cryin' in the corner... 

'breeze, haven't you ever read or heard a joke that was so good it brought tears to your eyes?  Well, in the interest of efficiency we have found a way to skip directly to the tears without wasting a lot of time with the joke.

Jerry

[spydglide]

'breeze, haven't you ever read or heard a joke that was so good it brought tears to your eyes?  Well, in the interest of efficiency we have found a way to skip directly to the tears without wasting a lot of time with the joke.

Jerry

Is this what's referred to as 'dark' humor?  spyder

[RJ749]

Well, you knew it would happen.................

With Gas Falling, Trucks Come Back

After nearly a year of flagging sales, low gas prices and fat incentives are reigniting America's taste for big vehicles. Trucks and SUVs will outsell cars in December, according to researchers at the automotive Website Edmunds.com, something that hasn't happened since February. Meanwhile, the forecast finds that sales of hybrid vehicles are expected to be way down. "Despite all the public discussion of fuel efficiency, SUVs and trucks are the industry's biggest sellers right now as a remarkable number of buyers seem to be compelled by three factors: great deals, low gas prices, and winter weather," commented Michelle Krebs of Edmunds. Gasoline prices now average about $1.67 a gallon, according to the most recent AAA gas price survey. Prices had topped $4 a gallon this summer. This month, trucks and SUVs will make up 51 percent all vehicles sold in the U.S., according to CNN. And for every truck they sell this month, automakers are spending an average of about $5,200 on incentives, according to data from Edmunds.com. Next year, incentive spending is expected to drop and, correspondingly, prices paid by consumers will rise as recently announced production cutbacks limit the supply of new vehicles.

[Coolbreeze]

Quote from: grc on December 23, 2008, 05:28:12 AM
'breeze, haven't you ever read or heard a joke that was so good it brought tears to your eyes?  Well, in the interest of efficiency we have found a way to skip directly to the tears without wasting a lot of time with the joke.

Jerry

Is this what's referred to as 'dark' humor?   spyder


Ahhhhh! you guys are killin' me!!!   And my brother-in-law just showed up in his brand spankin' new Excursion...   Holy sheet, batman, that creetter is BIG!!!  but, according to him, it gets such good mileage , that he just couldn't resist!   

[FNGw/08SERK]

Wonder how the CMC will manage plants like this one 


http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[grc]

Quote from: grc on December 23, 2008, 05:28:12 AM
'breeze, haven't you ever read or heard a joke that was so good it brought tears to your eyes?  Well, in the interest of efficiency we have found a way to skip directly to the tears without wasting a lot of time with the joke.

Jerry

Is this what's referred to as 'dark' humor?   spyder


[color]]Ahhhhh! you guys are killin' me!!!   And my brother-in-law just showed up in his brand spankin' new Excursion...   Holy sheet, batman, that creetter is BIG!!!  but, according to him, it gets such good mileage , that he just couldn't resist!   

I hate to talk about anyone's relatives, even the in-laws, but I think you need to keep a close eye on that brother-in-law.  He is obviously delusional.  Last time I checked an Excursion's fuel economy was measured in gallons per mile, not the other way around.

I guess when a person really wants something they can always find a way to justify it.  Just look at all of us idiots who paid way too much for Harley's so-called flagship models.

Jerry

[RJ749]

Auto Supplier Tells GM Where To Go

 

This message says a lot about our need to stand up and be responsible.  Hopefully it will get a wide distribution.

This is one of the greatest responses to the requests for bailout money I have seen thus far.  As a supplier for the Big 3 this man received a letter from the President of GM North America, requesting support for the bail out program.  His response is well written, and has to make you proud of a local guy who tells it like it is.

 -------------
Dear Employees & Suppliers,

 Congress and the current Administration will soon determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history.  Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis.

As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and  passionate voices.  I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.

Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.

Troy Clarke
President,
General Motors North America



Response from:

 
Gregory Knox, Pres.
Knox Machinery Company
Franklin, Ohio
 
Gentlemen:

In response to your request to contact legislators and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please consider the following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America.

Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new "messiah," Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream."  Believe me folks, The dream is over!

This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities.  This dream where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products for ever and ever.

Don't even think about telling me I'm wrong.  Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak.  I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle, and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the Midwest, during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.

Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America, states:  "There is widespread sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and especially via the news media, that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management which it certainly is not."

You're right Mr. Clarke, it's not JUST management.  How about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour work week. How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics for putting out too many parts on a shift and for being too productive.

(We certainly must not expose those lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?)

[RJ749]

CONT'D

Do you folks really not know about this stuff?!?  How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea:  "over the last few years we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors."  What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?  Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?  The K car vs. the Accord?  The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?  Do I need to go on?  What a joke!

We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins, Detroit.

I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research, surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money."   

"Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems," but despite what people like politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day and the following very important thing would happen.  Where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up.  That is how a free market system works.  It does work if we would only let it work."

But for some nondescript reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to step in and "save us".  Save us my ass, Hell - we're nationalizing and unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is what is really happening. 

But, they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams. 

Yeah - THAT'S really important, isn't it.

Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country?  How can that be???  Let's see.  Fuel efficient.  Listening to customers.  Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul.

Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs.  Ever increased productivity through quality and intelligent planning.  Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy."  Efficient front and back offices.  Non union environment.

 
Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts.

I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was their age.  I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work through it.  Radical concept, huh.  Am I there for them in the wings?  Of course - but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.

I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government.  Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins.

Bad news people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away."  I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied.  "We really might not do it in a year or in four."  Where the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office.

Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks.  That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000.  People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits. That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year.  We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe.  That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home.

Let the market correct itself folks - it will.  Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has and doesn't live beyond its means and gets back to basics and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world and probably turns back to God.

Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news".  I hope you take it to heart.

Gregory J. Knox, President
Knox Machinery, Inc.
Franklin, Ohio 45005

Mr. Knox sent a reply to Snopes about their inquiry as to the origin of his letter:


http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/knox.asp

[Hoist!]

Cool Rog! I like Mr Knox! He don't speak in fork-ed tongue! He reminds me of someone else!

And a Happy New Yerar to you and Cindy!

Hoist!

[SBB]

Thank you Roger.

A very good letter that covered most of whats wrong in this country.

In my career my only job security has been my ability to make things happen and to make money for those that I work for.

The basic fundamentals of work are still the same as they have always been.

We just need to get back to them!

SBB

[RJ749]

Yep, hard work pays off..........unless you are a tycoon of some sort and then you get a life ring even if you fail it seems.

[SPIDERMAN]

Yep, hard work pays off..........unless you are a tycoon of some sort and then you get a life ring even if you fail it seems.

A number of years ago, I started writing a book I titled the American Aristocracy. My oldest was at Berkeley at the time and I e-mail her a file containing about 50 pages. She circulated it around among her friends and the consensus was that Nikki's Dad was cracked. This mind you from Berkeley students. The thrust of my "book" was that we have created an aristocracy in this country,not unlike the list of Royals in England and other countries with Monarchs. The only difference is that the American Aristocracy is made up of families with one member who either started his/her own business or became a CEO of a Fortune 500 company and they take their intitlement from that one person's efforts. Henry Ford the 19th or whatever he may be is not 1/1000th the man his great great grandfather was. And the folks who forced Steve Jobs out of Apple for years proved themselves to be nothing more than arbitragers at best and charlatans at worst. And then there's Michael Eisner. Candy says keep the word count down , well writing about M Eisner would take about 100,000,000 words. And there's 1000 Corporate CEO's just like Eisner. The panic in the boardrooms of America these days is not that Company A or B or C will go down the toilet, it's that the American Aristocracy will finally be seen for what it has become and the people will demand heads roll as much as the French demanded those of the French Nobility several hundred years ago. Each and every one of us should be screaming to our elected officials that not a dime be given to private industry and those that fail, fail. Those that survive will thrive and in place of those that would fail will be new busnesses founded on intelligence, hard work and sweat equity, not government bailouts. Ok, I'm getting my BP up here so I'll stop now, but this is a subject I've been waiting for years for someone to listen to me about.

B B

[iski]

Thanks for posting the letter from Mr. Knox, Rog.

He nails it & he knows the auto industry as well as a lot more.  Big execs clueless & overpaid has become a cliche albeit a true one when it comes to corporate America (also applies worldwide but that goes against the grain of those who figure the USA is best to blame first).  As with many disasters, this economic disaster is applicable across many levels & as in many organizations, certain levels point at the others blaming them while ignoring their own role.  Just human nature to paint a happy face on corporate excrement.   Big unions, clueless & overpaid also get their share of responsibility in this.  It's more than a 2 sided problem, but those sides have the biggest stakes & contributed the most, IMHO.

Off the subject somewhat, but that letter reminded me of when I worked in a factory producing parts for auto makers many years ago.  The company had a union which I elected not to join since frankly I did not see any benefits they could offer to offset the cost to my paycheck.  Of course the union guys were SOOOO happy to see me get promoted quickly & did their best to stop it.  I ended up running a large machine that usually sat idle for a sizable portion of the shifts while the operators pretended to work on it.  This threw a wrench into the rest of production, while machine operators down the line waited for product.  Led to weekend overtime for that machine to pre-produce material, in fact.  Anyway, I decided to just run the damn thing.  Did not break my back, just ran it at a reasonable pace & in 1 shift it produced about 25% more than it had, ever. Believe me this was noticed by mgt. as well as.... Very next day I was "approached" by some union guys as well as a guy from maintenance who threatened to.... well lets just say my reproductive capabilities could have been very limited. 

I decided to ignore the threat, continued running the damn thing, & next week the machine I ran was basically in a shambles as soon I showed up for my shift.  The guy on the shift before sabotaged it - took about 2 hours to get it back online.  Somehow, a foreman figured it out & when that guy was sent to shipping, the problems disappeared.  I got a raise, got promoted again, and eventually left to find greener monetary pastures.  Will never forget that union experience or hearing my relatives who worked for a variety of auto makers, defense contractors, etc. brag about how they could create overtime by screwing with the system (goldbricking) - all with union blessing.  Not all of them, but about 80%.  Some badge of weird honor that frankly made no sense to me.  If your company wastes time/money since you decide to screw it up, then it will do poorly & your own job is in jeopardy by your own doing.  Weird.

[RJ749]

Iski, when I was working my way through school I drove truck and was in the Teamsters 174 union here.

I went to work for an outfit right out of the Air Force so I could earn enough to get back to college.  On my first Friday two guys approached me and suggested I was working myself out of a job.  I got the picture for sure.

They were a bit surprised however when I suggested maybe I should check with my cousin to see if that was in fact the case.  Check with whoever you want was their retort.  Who's your cousin anyway?  Happens to be he owns this chit hole I replied.

Turned out I hadn't worked myself out of a job, but I did stop for coffee with them the next Monday before I did my route.  They weren't all bad, just lazy and very appreciative that I didn't need to talk with my cousin.

[Hugh Janis]

Yep, hard work pays off..........unless you are a tycoon of some sort and then you get a life ring even if you fail it seems.

yeah, hard work pays off eventually, but laziness pays off now! (this is the humor board after all)

I worked as summer help in a grocery warehouse during college.  To be hired, I had to join the Teamsters.  I struggled with the techniques of building a strong pallet full of boxes for a couple weeks and was not allowed to work through the two 15 minute breaks each day to keep my productivity up.  Meanwhile, the senior guys were getting orders from the largest stores where they simply had to move pallets to the shipping area.  My orders of comparable size took an hour or more to assemble.  Guess what they did between orders?  Went to the back of the warehouse to hang with the other senior guys and smoke a cigarette and laugh while the summer help filled the days quota at 1/3 the salary.

Good story Iski.  That mentality makes no sense to me at all.

[SPIDERMAN]

I've been on both sides of the equation here. I retired as a Sr Manager but spent many years in the union at BIW. I can honestly say that there's good and bad on both sides. Some guys just come to work with the mindset that they're being paid to do a job and they do it as best they can. Others seem to feel some sort of entitlement and that attitude exists on both sides. So far as unions are concerned, I think we're forgetting the reason they came into existence. We shouldn't as WALMART is there to remind all of us everyday why the Union movement began, but for some reason it's easier to toss the baby out with the bath water than to figure out how to drain the sink. I don't think any middleclass blue collar working man or woman would like to see the entire country operate on the WALMART business model. Unions are the only way to stop that from happening. Good forbid the NLRB ever actually do it's job and protect workers from all of the abuses some employers heap on them. Our government is engaged in Corporate Socialism on a scale unprecedented in our nations's history. The POTUS elect says he also wants to help the commonfolk as well. These two worlds have to collide and I know which will win. In the next 90 days, the Obama Administration will unveil deficit spending that will make even GWB blanch. The stock market will sink to 6,500 and what little savings average Americans have will be gone. We are at the precipice and I for one refuse to sit and blame the unions for it. It's not the rattle in the snake that bites you folks.

B B

[Hugh Janis]

You'd think this was written last month........

[miker]

  sad but true, where mine??  I want bananas foster...and a knucklehead.....

[RJ749]

BB, don't get me wrong, unions have a place and certainly brought the American worker much good.

But like a union Ford shop at a local dealer ran an ad while the Boeing machinists were out on strike asking them to buy from a union shop and service there as well rather than down the street at the non-union independant or speedy service. 

It was well written and begged the question of the Boeing workers, you want our support when you are negotiating a raise and improved benefit, but where is the return once you got what you wanted?  Truly an argument that mostly goes round and round.

It would however be interesting to do a card check of folks entering the Super Walmart.  All those folks can't be non-union.

[grc]

The horror stories about union goons, slackers, and idiots are legion, and I could add many more from my personal collection, but in the end all the union bashing is no different than bashing lawyers because a certain percentage turn out to be bloodsucking ambulance chasers (or god forbid, politicians), or bashing all bankers because a certain percentage turned out to be crooks, or bashing all car and motorcycle dealers because some would screw their mothers out of their last dime, or bashing doctors because some are incompetent and kill people.  No doubt some union folks deserve all the bashing and then some, but I don't understand the desire to hurt the majority because of the sins of the minority.  I worked with thousands of UAW members over the years, and yes there were some that I would have loved to take out in the parking lot for a little "consultation", but the vast majority were fine people just putting in an honest days work to support their families.  

The current state of our industries, or our nation, is not the fault of unions, no matter what the bashers say.  Management isn't allowed to join the unions, and I'm not aware of a union for members of Congress, or for the President and his appointees.  I'm also not aware of a union for crooked mortgage brokers and greedy Wall Street tycoons, market manipulators, or the mergers and acquisitions types who bought up going concerns and destroyed them and millions of jobs by selling off the parts and pieces for quick profits/commissions, etc.  Unions are just as imperfect as the rest of the organizations in this world, but I believe they are a necessary evil to offset the evil posed by the robber baron mentality of the rich and powerful.

If anyone is adamantly opposed to helping American industries and American workers during this historic economic collapse, they have every right to their opinion.  However, I sure hope the holier-than-thou types make sure to swear off all the subsidies they personally receive from the public.  Since income tax season is fast approaching, that would be a good place to start.  Forget all those deductions, just cut a check for the appropriate percentage of your gross.  What the heck, since you don't have to pay union dues go ahead and throw in an extra $1k as well.  Lord knows Uncle can use it to bail out the fat cats who really did cause the collapse.

Jerry

[arcticdude]

Congress doesn't need a union when it makes it's own laws, pay raises, retirement and work schedules.

[iski]

Iski, when I was working my way through school I drove truck and was in the Teamsters 174 union here.

I went to work for an outfit right out of the Air Force so I could earn enough to get back to college.  On my first Friday two guys approached me and suggested I was working myself out of a job.  I got the picture for sure.

They were a bit surprised however when I suggested maybe I should check with my cousin to see if that was in fact the case.  Check with whoever you want was their retort.  Who's your cousin anyway?  Happens to be he owns this chit hole I replied.

Turned out I hadn't worked myself out of a job, but I did stop for coffee with them the next Monday before I did my route.  They weren't all bad, just lazy and very appreciative that I didn't need to talk with my cousin.

Rog,

Company I am with now is unionized.  Basically an ok deal - mainly since the union negotiations do not approach the level of others where the owners are left holding a big bag of debt they cannot over come.

As to the current auto situation - unions are going to have to give up some goodies if the automakers are to continue.  Management will as well.  Unless the govt. underwrites poor management &  contracts that need to be negotiated, which it could be prone to do.



Mike

[RJ749]

.

[hard10]

Don't know if this has been posted already or not:

"Our government just announced that motorcycles will be included in the stimulus package. “The bill would let those who buy a new car, light vehicle, recreational vehicle or motorcycle in 2009 deduct state and local sales taxes as well as any excise tax charged in the purchase. The deduction would be available to those earning less than $125,000 ($250,000 for joint filers). It will be an above-the-line deduction, meaning even taxpayers who don’t itemize may take it in addition to the standard deduction. Estimated cost: $1.7 billion”."