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[spydglide]

The question is:  how's the increased availability of ethenol gonna help us w/ the dependence on oil/cost of gasoline/ and are you gonna run it in your scooter?   :-? spyder

[SPIDERMAN]

Both 60 minutes and Dateline had segments this past Sunday on E-85  85% ethenol. Purportedly more powerful than gasoline, cleaner burning and is already available in limited markets. You need to do some work to an existing motor to use it, but that was described as an easy conversion that wasn't expensive. Once you've done the conversion you can burn E-85, or gas or anything in between. I happened to see a newscast the next day and some oil company flack went droning on about how it wasn't feasible. Like I believe him any more than anything that comes out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue these days. My hope is that this time the oil companies have overplayed their hand and that this technology and product will soon be widely available. Hey, the Red Sox won the World Series Anything can happen

[grc]

Both 60 minutes and Dateline had segments this past Sunday on E-85  85% ethenol. [highlight]Purportedly more powerful than gasoline[/highlight], cleaner burning and is already available in limited markets. [highlight]You need to do some work to an existing motor to use it, but that was described as an easy conversion that wasn't expensive.[/highlight] Once you've done the conversion you can burn E-85, or gas or anything in between. I happened to see a newscast the next day and some oil company flack went droning on about how it wasn't feasible. Like I believe him any more than anything that comes out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue these days. My hope is that this time the oil companies have overplayed their hand and that this technology and product will soon be widely available. Hey, the Red Sox won the World Series Anything can happen

Spiderman,
 
Depends on how they define "powerful".  Ethanol has a much higher octane rating than gasoline (115-120 octane), however the actual energy content per gallon is significantly lower (72%), resulting in fewer miles per gallon.  The flex fuel vehicles currently available require different fuel system materials due to the corrosive nature of alcohol, special sensors in the fuel system to determine the actual ethanol/gasoline percentages, special ECM's to utilize that percentage data to change injection amounts and ignition advance, etc.  This is not something a consumer could easily do to an existing gasoline vehicle.  The last time I checked, there were no commercially available conversion kits that were economically feasible and EPA legal.  Of course, Ford and GM have been offering factory FFV's (flex fuel vehicles) that do meet all emission and safety requirements for many years now, so there is that option.
 
Ethanol is currently not price competitive with gasoline, especially after you factor in the lower energy and lower mpg.  The advantage it does have is that it can be produced from renewable resources (corn, other biomass), and thus it reduces our dependency on a nonrenewable resource (oil, especially foreign oil).  Is it the answer to higher energy prices?  No, at least not at this time.
 
Jerry

[110tHunDer]

The question is:  how's the increased availability of ethenol gonna help us w/ the dependence on oil/cost of gasoline/ and are you gonna run it in your scooter?   :-? spyder

Spyder, for quite awhile here in the cornbelt, we have had 10% ethanol at many stations throughout Illinois.  Today it's become almost impossible to find a station that sells alcohol-free gas in this state.  So, I haven't had much choice but to run it in the scoot, or the weed eater, for that matter.  The owner's manual for our bikes states that gas/ethanol blends can be used as long as the ethanol content doesn't exceed 10%, and so far, I've seen no ill effects from using it.

Regarding the E-85, and to go along with what Jerry said about the cost difference, I found it quite amusing that one week one of the local TV stations here ran a story about the E-85 converted vehicles that a local municipality had purchased.  In that story they were touting the benefits of E-85 (cleaner burning, cheaper per gallon than gas, comes from corn not dinosaurs), but never once mentioned the detrimental impact on MPG of E-85.  Then, about a week later, they ran another story on the same channel, about how the price per gallon was only about $0.20 cheaper than regular unleaded at the stations here that offered it, and oh, by the way, your MPG is 10-20% worse with E-85.  LOL!  Oops, let's look at the BIG PICTURE, next time, OK?  That's about a 7% savings in per gallon fuel costs, but a 10-20% decrease in efficiency.  Yes, you're still saving gasoline by burning 85% alcohol, but if it costs the consumer more out of their pocket to do so, how are you going to get them to make the switch?!?  They'll keep burning GAS if it's cheaper, overall, to do so.

[BK]

I am not a chemist. But I do have to ask. If we have been using 10% ethonal all these years why are they trying to go to 85 overnight. Why are we not going to 15 or 20% blend or what ever that magic number is before you need major engine changes. We have plenty of corn in this country.

[grc]

I am not a chemist. But I do have to ask. If we have been using 10% ethonal all these years why are they trying to go to 85 overnight. [highlight]Why are we not going to 15 or 20% blend or what ever that magic number[/highlight] is before you need major engine changes. We have plenty of corn in this country.

BK,

With a FFV vehicle, since they are made to work on anything between E85 and pure gasoline, any blend ratio in between will work (system adjusts automatically to the ratio).  So your question is a valid one; if we want to reduce oil consumption, why not equip all vehicles to handle variable ratios of gas and ethanol, and then vary the blend based on availability and current economics of the two fuels?  One of the things about this, however, is that while plenty of folks have been touting ethanol for a long time, there was no financial incentive to invest in manufacturing facilities due to the higher price of ethanol versus gasoline.  Now that Congress has mandated using ethanol in oxygenated fuels rather than MTBE, they are having a hard enough time keeping up with just the 10% ethanol.  Without a huge increase in ethanol production capacity, trying to convert everything to E85, or even E50, is just a pipe dream.

Jerry

[SPIDERMAN]

This is great, I feel like I'm part of an episode of Bill Nye the Science Guy

       I would think that if you reduce demand for petroleum based products then you reduce the price. The idea behind E-85 as stated in the pieces on 60 minutes and Dateline is that it is celulose based. It can be made from any plant fiber. Be interesting to see what you guys say about this. That's what I love about this site. It's a lot more fun than ASK JEEVES The part about alcohol having more power but less efficiency is intersting because the power issue was always a concern to me, but with the amount of cross country riding I do, fuel mileage is a concern as well. As to the cost of converting an existing vehicle, I can see your point. However, if all new vehicles were made to run on any combination of alcohol and gas, then the demand for oil would begin to lesson dramtically within a few years. I think the bottom line in this debate is that we have to start down a different path than just paying the price for oil and assuming it will be available forever.

[grc]

This is great, I feel like I'm part of an episode of Bill Nye the Science Guy

       I would think that if you reduce demand for petroleum based products then you reduce the price. The idea behind E-85 as stated in the pieces on 60 minutes and Dateline is that it is celulose based. It can be made from any plant fiber. Be interesting to see what you guys say about this. That's what I love about this site. It's a lot more fun than ASK JEEVES The part about alcohol having more power but less efficiency is intersting because the power issue was always a concern to me, but with the amount of cross country riding I do, fuel mileage is a concern as well. As to the cost of converting an existing vehicle, I can see your point. However, if all new vehicles were made to run on any combination of alcohol and gas, then the demand for oil would begin to lesson dramtically within a few years. I think the bottom line in this debate is that we have to start down a different path than just paying the price for oil and assuming it will be available forever.

You are correct, the law of supply and demand would dictate that oil prices would decline if useage was reduced.  So far in the USA, however, converting to alternative energy sources has remained a very low priority because gasoline was cheaper than the alternatives.  Hard to sell people a product that costs twice as much to go the same distance (perhaps our government should consult H-D on how they get people to pay inflated prices for stuff???).  In the long term, ethanol will have to become much more widely used as oil supplies dwindle and prices rise even higher, at least as an interim solution until we develop even better alternatives like fuel cells.  We have just recently reached the point where it is economically feasible to push ethanol, now we have to have the will to "just git 'er done".

Anyone who wants a little more info can visit this site: http://www.ethanol.org/ .  Of course, some of the info is a little biased, like the fuel economy question where they try to BS their way around it.  Also, I've attached a pdf file from this site with a list of frequently asked questions for those interested.

Jerry

[SPIDERMAN]

Thanks Jerry  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[Twolanerider]

One quick thought and then I'm leaving the friend's computer to go clean the bike:

Assuming for sake of debate that the high E fuel can be run in a large enough quantity of vehicles to make a real and significant difference, and assuming that this volume of high E fuel used really can make a real difference in the amount of petroleum used; then what about the water?

Producing all that corn (or other biomass) is going to consume a lot of water.  Producing ethanol from corn uses a lot of water.  Some parts of the country are in low term water shortage now.  Major water tables are lower than they have ever been with no chance of recover at current usage levels.  So what about the water?

[SPIDERMAN]

Twolane
            Build the plants in the Pacific Northwest, they get enough rain in an average year to float Noah's Ark again.

[spydglide]

Twolane
            Build the plants in the Pacific Northwest, they get enough rain in an average year to float Noah's Ark again.

They need to build it on the west coast anyway since it's cheaper to ship the corn than the ethanol and Calif needs more and more fuel.  Wonder if the MoCo is developing a fuel cell powered touring scooter?    har!  spyder

[grc]

Twolane
            Build the plants in the Pacific Northwest, they get enough rain in an average year to float Noah's Ark again.

Good idea  .  Another would be to utilize the additional seawater we will be getting from the melting of the ice caps.  Instead of oil platforms up and down the coasts, we would just have desalinization plants and ethanol plants.  Oops, sounds kind of expensive though.

BTW - I finally found a quote I'd been looking for that fits nicely with this thread:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When Henry Ford told a New York Times reporter that ethyl alcohol was "the fuel of the future" in 1925, he was expressing an opinion that was widely shared in the automotive industry. "The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumach out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything," he said. "There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years."1

[size=9]1 "Ford Predicts Fuel from Vegetation," New York Times, Sept. 20, 1925, p. 24.[/size]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry

[CVOJOE]

Sounds more like corn mash one of my great-uncles used to make and I could never see the need for a stronger drink at that time of my life, much less pouring it in my automobiles.   [smiley=nixweiss.gif]  [smiley=drink.gif]

[Jock]

Bottom Line - Brazil became independent of oil why can't we?

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah...I know there are a number of reasons...politics, economy, employment, etc, etc...

However, there must be some level of sacrifices if you are to make progress.  As with any decision, freedoms come with cost.

One man's opinion.

[SPIDERMAN]

Bottom Line - Brazil became independent of oil why can't we?

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah...I know there are a number of reasons...politics, economy, employment, etc, etc...

However, there must be some level of sacrifices if you are to make progress.  As with any decision, freedoms come with cost.

One man's opinion.

AND an excellent opinion at that Jock.

Hey you're good with this IT chit, maybe you could start a website to promote E-85. V-girl is a professional IT weenie, (um, er, ahh - - - maybe a bad choice of words), You might enlist her help and all of us this site could do mass e-mailings etc. (spam?)

[Jock]

AND an excellent opinion at that Jock.

Hey you're good with this IT chit, maybe you could start a website to promote E-85.

If you are referring to me with regard to "IT", far from it.

At this point, it is simply a dream but one worth having and pursuing.

[SPIDERMAN]

[highlight]If you are referring to me with regard to "IT", far from it.[/highlight]

Well you're a damn site better than I am that's for sure. I followed your links to your website and stuff, chit I can't even attach a digital pic to a post.

[HUBBARD]

Ethenol ain't gonna' cut it.  Just somethin' else for the tree-huggers to flap their jaws about, so the liberal media can continue to blather out their gloom and doom bull chit about holes in the Ozone, and global warming.  Blah, Blah, Blah!  Anybody that believes any of that chit, believes we came from apes, and apes, and every other living thing came from two meteors, or planets, or something colliding, and causing a big bang!  There are some highly intelligent members on this Site.  While I may not be one of them, I do have the presence of mind to research certain subjects that I do not fully understand, that are of interest to me.  Research temperatures recorded 200 years ago, and compare them to current temperatures.  You will not only be informed, you will be informed with the facts.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD            

[SPIDERMAN]

Hubbard
            The only reason I give a chit about E-85 is to have cheap go fast juice for my rides. Call me selfish, but that's the whole story

[spydglide]

Hubbard
            The only reason I give a chit about E-85 is to have cheap go fast juice for my rides. Call me selfish, but that's the whole story

Hey Spiderman, you get yourself a good 'still' and you can brew your own 'alcohol-gas'....lotta trouble to do, but it's do-able.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] spyder

[spydglide]

Ethenol ain't gonna' cut it.  Just somethin' else for the tree-huggers to flap their jaws about, so the liberal media can continue to blather out their gloom and doom bull chit about holes in the Ozone, and global warming.  Blah, Blah, Blah!  Anybody that believes any of that chit, believes we came from apes, and apes, and every other living thing came from two meteors, or planets, or something colliding, and causing a big bang!  There are some highly intelligent members on this Site.  While I may not be one of them, I do have the presence of mind to research certain subjects that I do not fully understand, that are of interest to me.  Research temperatures recorded 200 years ago, and compare them to current temperatures.  You will be not only be informed, you will be informed with the facts.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD            

My theory is that all the global-warming is coming from those 'big-motors'.  har!  spyder

[spydglide]

Interesting take on the potential for ethenol to help with our fuel crisis/dependence on the tube last night.  I forget which program, but it basically stated that if we were to produce enough corn to make enough ethenol to meet our vehicle use as it presently is in this country, then 97 per cent of all of our country land would have to be planted in corn.  Bottom line is that the ethenol approach is probably not gonna make a good dent in out need for motor fuel even as everyone gears up for it......another good case of a steller lobbying effort by Archer Daniels Corp. who probably has the most to gain from this effort???  :-/  spyder

[HUBBARD]

Interesting take on the potential for ethenol to help with our fuel crisis/dependence on the tube last night.  I forget which program, but it basically stated that if we were to produce enough corn to make enough ethenol to meet our vehicle use as it presently is in this country, then 97 per cent of all of our country land would have to be planted in corn.  Bottom line is that the ethenol approach is probably not gonna make a good dent in out need for motor fuel even as everyone gears up for it......another good case of a steller lobbying effort by Archer Daniels Corp. who probably has the most to gain from this effort???  :-/  spyder

Yeah, 'er 'uh, spyder,
  Like I said, it ain't gonna' cut it.  COAL is the answer.  Most abundant.  Most economical to convert to energy.  Hell, Hitler converted it to fuel.  Now, where is that formula?  I'd bet Algore has it!  BTW, I'm of the opinion Spotted Owl tastes like Chicken!  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD

[spydglide]

Yeah, Hub, we could all go to school on that lesson.  You need to quit hanging out at those race tracks and working all the time.....hit the road some, dog.  Let ole Maudie roll up some miles.  Har!   spyder