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[skratch]

I want a motorcycle, not a turbine or electric "motor"cycle.

If I wanted smooth power, with no clunks, vibration, rattles or sound, i would have bought a ...ing Gold wing.
(Or a metric cruiser for a 1/3 of the money)

i hear this all the time, but have not been able to find this elusive metric that is 1/3 the cost of the hd.  when comparing apples to apples.  don't give me a virago and compare it to a roadglide ultra.

[Twolanerider]

Don't get too happy with yourself thinking Harley's will soon be quiet. Harley's are all about nostalgia and that's a good thing. Anyone thinking or wishing otherwise is probably better off riding a different brand. The old versions were also relatively quiet out of the crate. The bikes that seem to bother you are the one's modified by their owners.

You're really misguided if you think US Harley owners aren't already breaking down their '17 touring bikes as I write this post. You can count on faster, more powerful  and MUCH LOUDER pipes coming to a neighborhood near you just as soon as the aftermarket performance builders break these bikes down and rebuild them to the tastes of their owners. Count on it.

Mistaken to think happy has anything to do with it. And Harley is not all about nostalgia. Harley has hidden behind nostalgia to keep from having to spend the money to get good for a very long time. We can like what they are and the company could modernize and reminisce all the same time. It is expensive to do that well. That's what the company has avoided and we as a consumer base allowed them to do. Partly to justify our own unwillingness to adapt and partly just because change isn't always pleasant.

Even this much heralded aftermarket you speak of doesn't produce the things it used to. Loud pipes are not what they once were. Granted the guy working at home can and will do things no manufacturer would ever condone, even Harley. Yes there will always be holdouts.  Outliers and luddites are not what will allow a company to continue though. If we really want a Harley to be there for our children and grandchildren, so that they too can enjoy the shadow of themselves riding before them as the sun sets behind them, we had best hope Mother Harley is beginning to find a way to conform, produce reliability and do all this in a way that meets both modern and regulatory standards. 

The company is not a niche. It cannot continue to live a generation or two or sometimes even three behind. That also means that we as a riding community can't either. I don't have to want to ride a Goldwing or some other metric Cruiser to know that Harley has to find a way to still be good relative to our standards and be much better than it has been as a manufacturer.  They don't get a pass just because I'm unwilling to say I'm a cranky old fart who can't accept that sacrificial oiling and exhaust that wakes the neighbors are ok just because I want them to be.

[Supershooter]

Is possible for HD to design a motor that'll make power like their competitors and put it into a touring bike? The Ducati XDiavail makes 162 hp with just over 1200 cc...
Supershooter

[DOCGSS]

It is so interesting to hear all of the complaining that goes on in this forum about HD. I have owned over 20 bikes, from my Norton 850 Commando to my current bikes; a 2012 Triumph Thunderbird, 2013 Victory Vegas,  2014 HD RK CVO and a 2012 Vespa 300 GTi. I enjoy all of the bikes and each one is a comprimise as almost all things are. I totally enjoy my HD. But I do not understand why anyone that despises a product or complains about a product as often as some do on this forum about HD, bother to even read the forum or spend time on a forum about a bike they so dislike. If you do not like Harleys, simply buy the bike you do like, vote with your wallet, rather than trying to convince others how poor their preferred bike is. In the end Harley is overwhelmingly dominant in the large displacement Motorcycle segment in the US. I often travel aboard, (I am writing this in Munich, Germany), and I do not see another brand that has the world wide cache of Harley Davidson. People all over Europe wear and own or carry Harley logo merchandise, HD seems to be a wonderful US ambassador and something in the US that the rest of the world admires.

I applaud HD for what appears to be a fine engine, although the verdict will take the test of time. I have enjoyed all 11 Harleys I have owned, as well as the Yamahas, BMW, Honda, and Kawis I have owned. ALL have flaws, as does almost everything else I own. But really, if some dislike HD so much, buy something you will enjoy and join those forums to tell them how much you enjoy them.

[WYD OPN]

Is possible for HD to design a motor that'll make power like their competitors and put it into a touring bike? The Ducati XDiavail makes 162 hp with just over 1200 cc...
Supershooter

That 162hp is at the crank (or output shaft).  The SAE corrected wheel horsepower for the xDiavel S is in this chart compared to the previous Diavel.

The differing architectures of the XDiavel and the Harley air-cooled v-twins should be apparent.  V-Rods are directly comparable in architecture, and their output is within range of the Ducs (especially since the H-D Revolution 1250 hasn't changed appreciably since 2005).

And one of the answers to your question is low-end torque.  The big-inch air-cooled H-D mills provide the preferable engine output characteristics for baggers and cruisers.  Revving toward 10K rpm does not fit the touring/cruising relaxed style.

I have an xDiavel and love it.  But I'd rather have its stock 145hp/85tq numbers inverted for Harleys to 85hp/145tq any day.  The xDiavel is a power cruiser/muscle bike, not a custom cruiser.  Much lighter, and with a modern water-cooled engine.

[Heatwave]

Mistaken to think happy has anything to do with it. And Harley is not all about nostalgia. Harley has hidden behind nostalgia to keep from having to spend the money to get good for a very long time. We can like what they are and the company could modernize and reminisce all the same time. It is expensive to do that well. That's what the company has avoided and we as a consumer base allowed them to do. Partly to justify our own unwillingness to adapt and partly just because change isn't always pleasant.

Even this much heralded aftermarket you speak of doesn't produce the things it used to. Loud pipes are not what they once were. Granted the guy working at home can and will do things no manufacturer would ever condone, even Harley. Yes there will always be holdouts.  Outliers and luddites are not what will allow a company to continue though. If we really want a Harley to be there for our children and grandchildren, so that they too can enjoy the shadow of themselves riding before them as the sun sets behind them, we had best hope Mother Harley is beginning to find a way to conform, produce reliability and do all this in a way that meets both modern and regulatory standards. 

The company is not a niche. It cannot continue to live a generation or two or sometimes even three behind. That also means that we as a riding community can't either. I don't have to want to ride a Goldwing or some other metric Cruiser to know that Harley has to find a way to still be good relative to our standards and be much better than it has been as a manufacturer.  They don't get a pass just because I'm unwilling to say I'm a cranky old fart who can't accept that sacrificial oiling and exhaust that wakes the neighbors are ok just because I want them to be.

I agree with everything you said but unfortunately Harley is being limited by 2 major factors. 1) Consumers that want the aesthetics and visual/sound cues of the past combined with quality and performance PLUS 2) Ever higher emissions standards by Governments. Unfortunately those 2 factors are in direct conflict as the aesthetics and sounds of a Harley V-Twin have a hard bump up against Gov emission standards resulting in the somewhat compromised bikes we ride. Even these latest bikes, with all their impressive improvements, are heavily compromised with only 80hp/100ft-lbs from 107ci and 90hp/110tq from 114ci.

But I give the MoCo huge kudos because they gave future HD bike owners an incredible canvas to work on. And I believe that the aftermarket guys will be able to perform magic with the performance of these 4 valve engines, even though that magic will probably never meet the latest gov standards.

For the guy that's happy with stock (what I consider compromised performance), they will be getting a terrific new engine. For the guy that wants "more", they will have a great platform to work with. Unless the aftermarket guys can tune these new bikes with a heavily catalyzed exhaust to get the same performance as a more open exhaust, you can count on the stock pipes being replaced as soon as D&D, V&H, Cobra, Fuelmoto, Rinehart and all the others launch new exhaust systems with dyno charts to sell them. These companies are not just going to rollover and die. So I believe you can expect these bikes to be ALOT louder than they are out of the crate.

I understand there is a new Screaming Eagle Racing catalog and I think you can count on there being a new larger TB (62mm), higher lift cam and larger injectors, together with new maps from TTS, PowerVision and all the other tuners that will take these new 4valve engines to whatever performance level the customer wants and can afford.

Hopping up bikes isn't going anywhere so long as there are guys that want more performance than the "compromise" Harley has to build to meet gov standards while selling us the bikes we want.

[Twolanerider]

I agree with everything you said but unfortunately Harley is being limited by 2 major factors. 1) Consumers that want the aesthetics and visual/sound cues of the past combined with quality and performance PLUS 2) Ever higher emissions standards by Governments. Unfortunately those 2 factors are in direct conflict as the aesthetics and sounds of a Harley V-Twin have a hard bump up against Gov emission standards resulting in the somewhat compromised bikes we ride. Even these latest bikes, with all their impressive improvements, are heavily compromised with only 80hp/100ft-lbs from 107ci and 90hp/110tq from 114ci.

But I give the MoCo huge kudos because they gave future HD bike owners an incredible canvas to work on. And I believe that the aftermarket guys will be able to perform magic with the performance of these 4 valve engines, even though that magic will probably never meet the latest gov standards.

We don't disagree at all there.  As incremental a step as this is it does at least seem to be a step in the direction of where they'll have to go with a somewhat lesser grasp on where they've been.  I just don't believe that good engineers, tasked the right way and funded accordingly, couldn't make something that could live in today's and tomorrow's world while still at least moderately satisfying the aesthetic they've taught us (and we have to admit that's the way it's been over the years) to appreciate. 

Regs are regs.  We have to live with rules everywhere.  So we just have to suck it up and know that some of the things we've gotten used to being able to have (or at least get by with because no one looked hard enough) simply won't fly a lot longer.  That's not necessarily a bad thing though.  Modern engineering (not 20-25 year standards or systems that are simply new to us rather than actually new) can do amazing things.  Chevy made a Camaro and Dodge made a Challenger that generally pleased the lover of what came before and still satisfied modern (and much more stringent automotive) requirements. 

To give Harley a pass and say they can't be better than they have been at least in part because I love the "nostalgia" of what they were is just lazy.  I want the whole enchilada.  They need to build to contemporary standards of reliability, capability and performance and meet my design aesthetics. 

Just because it may be difficult isn't an excuse.  After all, it wouldn't be as difficult now if they hadn't waited so long to start trying to catch up.  Our "tastes" will change over time as well.  They'll have to.  If the company does it right we won't notice as much and the pain will be minimal.  Sooner rather than later we'll all be dead anyway and their market really will be someone who requires NOW what we're only beginning to see on the road ahead of us.

[Heatwave]

We don't disagree at all there.  As incremental a step as this is it does at least seem to be a step in the direction of where they'll have to go with a somewhat lesser grasp on where they've been.  I just don't believe that good engineers, tasked the right way and funded accordingly, couldn't make something that could live in today's and tomorrow's world while still at least moderately satisfying the aesthetic they've taught us (and we have to admit that's the way it's been over the years) to appreciate. 

Regs are regs.  We have to live with rules everywhere.  So we just have to suck it up and know that some of the things we've gotten used to being able to have (or at least get by with because no one looked hard enough) simply won't fly a lot longer.  That's not necessarily a bad thing though.  Modern engineering (not 20-25 year standards or systems that are simply new to us rather than actually new) can do amazing things.  Chevy made a Camaro and Dodge made a Challenger that generally pleased the lover of what came before and still satisfied modern (and much more stringent automotive) requirements. 

To give Harley a pass and say they can't be better than they have been at least in part because I love the "nostalgia" of what they were is just lazy.  I want the whole enchilada.  They need to build to contemporary standards of reliability, capability and performance and meet my design aesthetics. 

Just because it may be difficult isn't an excuse.  After all, it wouldn't be as difficult now if they hadn't waited so long to start trying to catch up.  Our "tastes" will change over time as well.  They'll have to.  If the company does it right we won't notice as much and the pain will be minimal.  Sooner rather than later we'll all be dead anyway and their market really will be someone who requires NOW what we're only beginning to see on the road ahead of us.

I definitely agree however the basic engineering and design of the new engine is likely to be with us for a decade. I plan to enjoy the new design and start the modifying as soon as the aftermarket partners are ready for primetime. I accept that Harley had  to make compromises to meet new, tougher gov standards and they had to make technical compromises that were affordable as a publicly traded company.

But I have no intention of living with those compromises if I have 3rd party partners that can wipe those compromises out. If the after-market "enhancements" happen to piss-off some non-riding, EPA, bark-eating, tree-hugging bureaucrats along the way, I'll consider that an extra bonus in my riding pleasure!!

[mark]

Just stopped at my local dealer, they said MoCo is cutting overall production by 11,000 cycles this year, and CVOs would be cut by a bigger percentage to bring back "exclusivity".  I doubt the CVO reduction stands, as they make the largest profits on them.

Anyone seen MY16 CVO production totals yet?

They're cutting CVO production because of lagging sales.  Does anyone really think the suits sat around a boardroom and said "we could sell a lot of CVOs, but we're going to cut production to make them more exclusive, even though that'll reduce total company profit."

[grc]

They're cutting CVO production because of lagging sales.  Does anyone really think the suits sat around a boardroom and said "we could sell a lot of CVOs, but we're going to cut production to make them more exclusive, even though that'll reduce total company profit."

 

It seems like every dealer in the country has leftover CVO's, and I've read reports of people buying them for as much as $6k under MSRP long before the 2017's were introduced.  I have no doubt that the production cut that was reported is due to lower demand, and not some desire to regain the old "exclusivity".  Notice they didn't say they were going to go back to assembling them off-line with two to four person teams like they did back in the more "exclusive" days.

Jerry

[Chief2505]

I called a dealer this morning about a 2016 CVO limited. he said yes they have one in black and red and it is sitting here on the showroom floor right by my desk. I said great! I am 2 hours away and on my way to come look at it. When I got there someone was driving it out of the lot! They sold it in the 2 hours it took me to drive to the dealer!

No idea what they sold it for but the dealer said I can find you one, and appraised my trade in and is supposed to call me with price Monday. Storms were building and we could not wait around any longer. We wanted to hit the road and try to avoid the rain, which we did!

[Panhead_Jimmy]

I want a motorcycle, not a turbine or electric "motor"cycle.

If I wanted smooth power, with no clunks, vibration, rattles or sound, i would have bought a ...ing Gold wing.
(Or a metric cruiser for a 1/3 of the money)

One word describes your motorcycle: Shovelhead.  I still have three complete engine gasket
sets for your perfect motorcycle.

[Kingspoke]

It seems like every dealer in the country has leftover CVO's, and I've read reports of people buying them for as much as $6k under MSRP long before the 2017's were introduced.  I have no doubt that the production cut that was reported is due to lower demand, and not some desire to regain the old "exclusivity".  Notice they didn't say they were going to go back to assembling them off-line with two to four person teams like they did back in the more "exclusive" days.

Jerry

Hear, hear!

[spook120]

I think I must be cranky this AM but some of the responses are interesting at best.  Guys, you know we are talking about a toy here...  HD is not inventing the cure for leprosy or preventing world peace.  Face it, a motorcycle is a luxury item that we buy to have fun with and in some cases get from point A to point B.  Like most on this board I have owned many bikes over the years. Most have been HD brand...I think my count is up to 11 or so.  My point is I see folks getting upset over a rather silly thing...a piece of machinery. As someone said, if you don't like what HD is selling...don't buy the bloody thing.  Go get a BMW, or Honda, or an older HD if that is what makes you smile.  One grows weary of the constant discussion of the short comings of the HD offerings.  They work.  Are they perfect, hell no, but then again it is just a toy...a hobby...a diversion...Life goes on no matter what HD does or doesn't do.  And now I will be quiet and my flame suit on.  Later.

[Heatwave]

I think I must be cranky this AM but some of the responses are interesting at best.  Guys, you know we are talking about a toy here...  HD is not inventing the cure for leprosy or preventing world peace.  Face it, a motorcycle is a luxury item that we buy to have fun with and in some cases get from point A to point B.  Like most on this board I have owned many bikes over the years. Most have been HD brand...I think my count is up to 11 or so.  My point is I see folks getting upset over a rather silly thing...a piece of machinery. As someone said, if you don't like what HD is selling...don't buy the bloody thing.  Go get a BMW, or Honda, or an older HD if that is what makes you smile.  One grows weary of the constant discussion of the short comings of the HD offerings.  They work.  Are they perfect, hell no, but then again it is just a toy...a hobby...a diversion...Life goes on no matter what HD does or doesn't do.  And now I will be quiet and my flame suit on.  Later.

Spot on!!