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[YesItsLoaded]

http://www.policemag.com/Blog/Vehicles/Story/2010/01/LAPD-Switches-To-BMW-Bikes-For-Motor-Patrol.aspx

January 07, 2010

LAPD Selects BMW For Motor Patrol
The agency's fleet of 427 has primarily relied on Harley-Davidson Electra Glide cruisers.
by Paul Clinton -

-------------------

The Los Angeles Police Department became the third large California LE agency—along with the Los Angeles County Sheriff and California Highway Patrol—to select the BMW R1200 RT-P as its primary motor unit.

The department is now taking delivery of the last of the 100 R1200 RT-P 2009 sport touring motorcycles, and will shift away from the Harley-Davidson cruisers that have been a staple of one of the nation's largest motor patrol units. The department had previously purchased 14 BMW R1150s, the earlier generation of the current R1200.

Prior to making the move (from 2005 to 2008, H-D Electra Glides made 60% of the fleet), the department analyzed maintenance costs, polled its motor officers and tested each of the currently available bikes from BMW, H-D and Honda. The department declined to consider Honda's ST1300, because the tires don't meet the CHP's run-flat protocol.

"The maintenance [costs] of the 2005 to 2008 [Harley Davidson] motors were higher than expected and the reliability was less than expected," Larry Tagawa, commanding officer of LAPD's motor transport division, tells POLICE Magazine in an e-mail. "However, LAPD leased five each [of the] 2009 Harleys, which are working out substantially better in terms of maintenance and reliability."

The BMW motor units were ordered with tire pressure monitoring, anti-lock brakes with traction control, and heated hand grips.

A Long Beach BMW dealership is outfitting the bikes, which will also be further customized in the LAPD vehicle workshop. Mounts will be added to accommodate batons and shotguns with side-folding stocks.

BMW uses "bead retention" tires that allow an officer to safely continue riding the bike with a flat tire. The tire's bead (the inner portion of the sidewall) won't slip outside the lip of the wheel, according to BMW.

"The BMWs were selected after a number of factors were reviewed and evaluated such as total life cycle cost, reliability based on our 2003 [model] year R1150 RT-P motors, 39-month warranty, manufacturer's technical support, and input from our officers," Tagawa added.

"The BMWs are expensive to buy and maintain, but I feel that they will hold up to the rigors of LAPD police work," said LAPD motor officer Randy Fontyn.

The workhorse Harleys do provide departments a sturdy, affordable option. They cost an average of $1,495 less than the BMWs, according to the fleet report.

Harley-Davidson counts about 5,000 police motorcycles in service with agencies in Denver, Las Vegas, Tampa, Indianapolis and Milwaukee.

BMW won the motorcycle contract, in part, because the company's North American division allows the LAPD to make small repairs in its own workshops and obtain reimbursements for warranty repairs, said Frank Stevens, BMW's authority program manager.

The arrangement allows the department to make these "sublet repairs" without needing to deliver the bikes to the BMW dealership. LAPD technicians have completed BMW's motorcycle maintenance training.

When departments choose a bike for motor patrol, the decision is primarily driven by fleet budgeting issues that include both the initial outlay, as well as ongoing maintenance costs.

[49445CVO]

Wow, what a blow to H-D.  It is really to sad to see this happen.  I guess there goes another couple hundred bike sales.  Too bad that H-D could not work something out with them to keep a contract.

[Wrongway]

In my many conversations with Motor Officers here in L.A. and Las Vegas, they hate the Harleys....Run too hot, heavy, poor braking, down time, etc. Law Enforcement can't afford these things, wake up MOCO, your loosing it.

[2harleys]

Just one more "STAB IN THE BACK" for the american made workers.

[Sierramadre]

That's a drag.  And symptomatic of Harley's issues.  I still don't like going to a foreign manufacturer.

[tazmun]

Just one more "STAB IN THE BACK" for the american made workers.

Blame the MOCO, they have been sitting on their butts way too long. They should
build a special bike for law enforcement, say lighter, maybe with the the 1125R
engine? Wait, a sport tourer from the MOCO, nah never happen!

[Ed45]

Blame the MOCO, they have been sitting on their butts way too long. They should
build a special bike for law enforcement, say lighter, maybe with the the 1125R
engine? Wait, a sport tourer from the MOCO, nah never happen!

Or, a V Rod variiant that would beat the pants off those Beemers; now that would be cool.

[Chains]

HD needs to take the V Rod and build it into a special police bike option.  Complete with fairing, bags and lights, it will eat the BMW's up.  Hard to blame BMW when corporate HD is napping.

[smkymtnboy]

  L.A P.D. should buy the harleys no matter what. Or we when they have the problems they historically have had thru the years we should just abandon them. fair is fair right guys. love to here comments on this both sides. keep it civil though

[CVOTequila]

Jeez..has this country just just given up on pride and keeping money in this country instead of sending it overseas?!!!!!

[tazmun]

Jeez..has this country just just given up on pride and keeping money in this country instead of sending it overseas?!!!!!

  If the MOCO would listen, and maybe THINK outside the box, (generation x,y, and z)
 they might not be in as much trouble as they are now. They started the V-Rod, and
 really haven't did much to it. Lets just work on making the twin cam HOTTER!
 I read all the time from those on this site, "get it home & redo it". X,Y, and Z
 just want to get on and go! Not rebuild it.

[smkymtnboy]

 i wish the politicans and law enforcements would listen and get on with it also not re-do the system just let us live with the one we have.

[YesItsLoaded]

It's hard to imagine any governmental agency choosing another countries product over an American one - especially with an American law enforcement agency, but law enforcement agencies do it all the time with no uproar or protest when they purchase their firearms (Glock's and Sig's and H&K's).

I may not like it too, but there's nothing more uniquely American than capitalism - you make a 'better' product and sell it at a better price, you win.

Just a shame that it appears that HD doesn't use resources like this board to drive it's R&D - couldn't think of a better more knowledgeable group of people to give practical, real-world suggestions on how to improve the product line. After all, we're the target customers - give us what we want and we'll buy it all day long.

[tazmun]

It's hard to imagine any governmental agency choosing another countries product over an American one - especially with an American law enforcement agency, but law enforcement agencies do it all the time with no uproar or protest when they purchase their firearms (Glock's and Sig's and H&K's).

I may not like it too, but there's nothing more uniquely American than capitalism - you make a 'better' product and sell it at a better price, you win.

Just a shame that it appears that HD doesn't use resources like this board to drive it's R&D - couldn't think of a better more knowledgeable group of people to give practical, real-world suggestions on how to improve the product line. After all, we're the target customers - give us what we want and we'll buy it all day long.

I couldn't have said it better!

[VaEagle]

Ah the good old days, when it was just Supply and Demand driving the market.  

If Harley could just listen to it's customers and make what they want, that would be great but they also have to comply with federal laws for safety, noise and air pollution etc.
The other manufacturers also have to comply with the federal laws but they aren't "trapped" in the nostalgia/traditionalist mode with their customer base. (The air cooled V-twin motor with trademark sound.)

As far as made in America, A Harley has many parts from foreign manufacturers. I read somewhere that 35% of the parts come from other manufacturers such as Brembo for brakes and Showa (Honda subsidiary) for suspension parts etc. Yes the parent company is American and I guess in the long run the profits go to the MOCO and the American stockholders.

Think of the daily usages for police bikes and you can see that they are used alot in urban areas with stop and go traffic, they also idle alot. As we all know not the ideal conditions for an air cooled V-Twin.
Police use is better served by a water cooled and even shaft drive bike with less maintenance since they are ridden hard.
Maybe the V-rod could be used but from what I have read the bike is small and revs high with not as much low end torque but lot's of high speed HP. Not sure if it could be geared or tuned for heavy loads of a police bike and at lower speeds for normal use. Police bikes are discouraged from participating in pursuits in many jurisdictions and if a police car joins the pursuit the police bike backs off if possible.

Tradition is nice but  it does at times hamper progress (not for change sake) but to make the job go better. When dependability and officer safety is at stake traditional thinking such as "it has worked for the last 50 years so why change"  or "buy American" is not a good thing.
I remember articles and even a thread on this site a couple of years ago about lawsuits against Harley for high speed wobbles on the Electraglides and officers getting hurt. Maybe the agencies were looking for a safer bike for their officers?

[smkymtnboy]

  well i guess what do we know anyway moco has only survived 105 yrs.

[tazmun]

 well i guess what do we know anyway moco has only survived 105 yrs.

I do believe it's now 107 years, but who's counting. The word survive has different
meanings too. Up until the mid 90's when it took off, it was not that big, poor quality etc.
It needed help from the government in the seventies, almost went under with AMF.
I can't remember why they sold out to AMF, but that was a cluster.
I guess what I'm saying is, we (MOCO) need to change with the times.
I'll bet none of us would like driving cars made in the 40's thru 70's everyday?
Look at GM, took a long time but I guess now they get the message.

[49445CVO]

It's hard to imagine any governmental agency choosing another countries product over an American one - especially with an American law enforcement agency, but law enforcement agencies do it all the time with no uproar or protest when they purchase their firearms (Glock's and Sig's and H&K's).

I may not like it too, but there's nothing more uniquely American than capitalism - you make a 'better' product and sell it at a better price, you win.

Just a shame that it appears that HD doesn't use resources like this board to drive it's R&D - couldn't think of a better more knowledgeable group of people to give practical, real-world suggestions on how to improve the product line. After all, we're the target customers - give us what we want and we'll buy it all day long.

Oh I think the MOCO is watching ( http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=44876.0 ) But they are not gonna answer.

[49445CVO]

I do believe it's now 107 years, but who's counting. The word survive has different
meanings too. Up until the mid 90's when it took off, it was not that big, poor quality etc.
It needed help from the government in the seventies, almost went under with AMF.
I can't remember why they sold out to AMF, but that was a cluster.
I guess what I'm saying is, we (MOCO) need to change with the times.
I'll bet none of us would like driving cars made in the 40's thru 70's everyday?
Look at GM, took a long time but I guess now they get the message.

It takes people like us with passion and compassion of the product that helps or makes it survive.

[faceracer]

I don't believe the LAPD cares one bit about where the bikes come from. They have to pass a performance test and then price and resale are taken into account! I know that resale helped Harley beat out Kawasaki in the 90's. Harley better get there ducks in a row because however ugly the BMW is IMO I believe it it a fine machine like a swiss watch!!!! Harley will need to get on there A game to beat this machine! I don't think a fat tire bike Will ever be a police bike. They will have to rethink the V-rod to make it a police bike, But why not build a special model geared towards the police market. There is a world wide market for these after all!!!!!!!

[nidan]

I saw a special on the CHP school and thier bike testing protocol, as much as I love HD's it's really not a big suprise.
The stock HD's aren't really in the same handling category.  It would be nice if HD would produce a sport touring bike with better handling and performance out the door for a reasonable price. The technology exists , but from thier perspective , not the market.

[RedDevil]

Ah the good old days, when it was just Supply and Demand driving the market.  


Think of the daily usages for police bikes and you can see that they are used alot in urban areas with stop and go traffic, they also idle alot. As we all know not the ideal conditions for an air cooled V-Twin.
Police use is better served by a water cooled and even shaft drive bike with less maintenance since they are ridden hard.

I remember articles and even a thread on this site a couple of years ago about lawsuits against Harley for high speed wobbles on the Electraglides and officers getting hurt. Maybe the agencies were looking for a safer bike for their officers?

To be perfectly honest, I don't think it had anything to do with the bikes themselves.  The statement that watercooled bikes are probably better for sustained idling and low speed work is valid, however, the R series BMW's are air/oil cooled horizontal twins.  They do have the benefit of a shaft drive, but when that shaft has problems, it's more expensive to fix then a belt drive.  

I think the think to look at was convenience...the article stated that the Beemers were, up front, more expensive than the HD's, so there's no cost savings there.  Service prices on a Beemer are the same, if not higher than service on an HD, so there's no savings there.  Reliability, the Beemer's probably got the older HD's beaten.  Here's where the contract was made:  BMW is allowing LAPD to do their own minor maintenance on the bikes without voiding the factory warranty, as long as the tech are certified to work on Beemers.  So they don't have to take the bikes into the dealer to pay for routine maintenance on the bikes...BIG savings over the life of the bike...that, in a nutshell, is what I believe did the MoCo in on this.  Had they offered the same deal, LAPD may have stayed with HD...

[tazmun]

On another site, about 2/3 months ago they had the LAPD spread sheet on ACTUAL costs
of the motor fleet. Time out or service, cost of repairs, mfg "willingness" to repair".
It was very interesting, and it really showed the problems they were having with
the MOCO bikes. It also showed that the MOCO were somewhat "unwilling" to fix some
real safety issues, (sound familiar)?
I think I'll see if I can find it, and post it here.

[tazmun]

On another site, about 2/3 months ago they had the LAPD spread sheet on ACTUAL costs
of the motor fleet. Time out or service, cost of repairs, mfg "willingness" to repair".
It was very interesting, and it really showed the problems they were having with
the MOCO bikes. It also showed that the MOCO were somewhat "unwilling" to fix some
real safety issues, (sound familiar)?
I think I'll see if I can find it, and post it here.

I found it,
http://www.bmwmc.net/uploads/tm7/LAPD%20Fleet%20Report.pdf

[SBB]

I found it,
http://www.bmwmc.net/uploads/tm7/LAPD%20Fleet%20Report.pdf

WOW

That's a very damaging report.
For a second there I thought I was reading a thread here.
I guess I feel better, I thought the MOCO didn't care about us CVO owners but I was wrong.
They don't appear to care about anyone.
Except maybe their stockholders.
Maybe they can offer the stockholder a deal on a bike to help sales and boost profits.
Just sayin...

SBB

[grandpadoc]

I found it,
http://www.bmwmc.net/uploads/tm7/LAPD%20Fleet%20Report.pdf

Wow, that read like our website. The police bike is built with the top 10% quality of production parts too.   Harley really needs to come out with a FLTR wet bike quickly and throw in a CVO model while there at it.      Doc

[Hoist!]

Wow, what a shocker! HD doesn't care about anything but their shareholders! Holy Crap, I would'a NEVER imagined that one in a million years!!!

Hoist!

[grandpadoc]

If they can't pull their U/U profit from sales, then it has to come from cutting back on customer support, R&D and ...   I hope this may be the end of our corporate culture in the US. The new guy at GM thinks so and is cleaning house, but it always takes Harley a little longer.

Doc

[faceracer]

The numbers have it! They can blow us little guys off, but there it is in black & white all their dirty little secrets! HD had better wake up because you can only ride on a name for so long IMHO 

[arcticdude]

That report only STRENGTHENS the MOCO's position.  Look at the cost per mile at the end of the report.  The HD's still had the lowest CPM of the 3 brands.  The HD cpm was $0.28, while the BMW was $0.30 and the Kawa was $0.34.  So even using the "bitching" in the LAPD report, HD still comes out as a lower cost bike.  That's all the bean counters want to see.  Besides, since when did heated grips cause a real problem? 

[grc]

To be perfectly honest, I don't think it had anything to do with the bikes themselves.  The statement that watercooled bikes are probably better for sustained idling and low speed work is valid, however, the R series BMW's are air/oil cooled horizontal twins.  They do have the benefit of a shaft drive, but when that shaft has problems, it's more expensive to fix then a belt drive.  

I think the think to look at was convenience...the article stated that the Beemers were, up front, more expensive than the HD's, so there's no cost savings there.  Service prices on a Beemer are the same, if not higher than service on an HD, so there's no savings there.  Reliability, the Beemer's probably got the older HD's beaten.  Here's where the contract was made:  BMW is allowing LAPD to do their own minor maintenance on the bikes without voiding the factory warranty, as long as the tech are certified to work on Beemers.  So they don't have to take the bikes into the dealer to pay for routine maintenance on the bikes...BIG savings over the life of the bike...that, in a nutshell, is what I believe did the MoCo in on this.  Had they offered the same deal, LAPD may have stayed with HD...

I don't think it has anything to do with routine maintenance, Red, it has to do with minor warranty work.  BMW will allow LAPD to do their own warranty work, at least for certain items.  As for maintenance, none of the manufacturer's can require them to take the bikes to a dealer for maintenance.

CHP went from Harley to BMW some time back, and I wonder if this move by LAPD isn't related to that.  I do know that reliability issues have hurt H-D with more than one fleet; it appears that only the Harley faithful are willing to keep accepting lower quality and reliability.  Fleets tend to put more importance on things like performance and reliability, not nostalgia and 100 year old design.

Jerry

[tazmun]

That report only STRENGTHENS the MOCO's position.  Look at the cost per mile at the end of the report.  The HD's still had the lowest CPM of the 3 brands.  The HD cpm was $0.28, while the BMW was $0.30 and the Kawa was $0.34.  So even using the "bitching" in the LAPD report, HD still comes out as a lower cost bike.  That's all the bean counters want to see.  Besides, since when did heated grips cause a real problem? 

Yes, you are somewhat correct............ Can't add cost per mile, when the bike is IN FOR SERVICE!
So when was the last year the Kawa built the Police bike?? I wonder if they would still be buying
IF KAWA was still building it, guess we'll never know!
 I guess the issue really still boils down to, what someone else said in this post,
"build a better product at a better price".
BMW only came with the police package a couple of years ago, and they are really
making inroads, First CHIP's, now LAPD. I personally wish the MOCO would get on the
road, to the fuuture!
 

[CVOTequila]

It all just boils down to this country not remembering the importance of keeping money in house.  There has been plenty of times where I have had the opportunity to purchase an item made in china, or some other foreign land, and an item made in the USA, and I will ALWAYS choose the item made in the USA.  WHY YOU ASK???  Becuase it provides American jobs!!!!  Even in a market as volatile as our market is right now, it is really hard for all of us to fathom just how difficult it is for the MoCo to compete with these foreign companies.  I will always try my best to stick with American made products specifically for this reason and I am also willing to pay a little extra to ride a bike which was built by hard-working American Hands!!   

[tazmun]

It all just boils down to this country not remembering the importance of keeping money in house.  There has been plenty of times where I have had the opportunity to purchase an item made in china, or some other foreign land, and an item made in the USA, and I will ALWAYS choose the item made in the USA.  WHY YOU ASK???  Becuase it provides American jobs!!!!  Even in a market as volatile as our market is right now, it is really hard for all of us to fathom just how difficult it is for the MoCo to compete with these foreign companies.  I will always try my best to stick with American made products specifically for this reason and I am also willing to pay a little extra to ride a bike which was built by hard-working American Hands!!   

I too agree, but you haven't bought many items for you Harley have you?
It really pisses me off when I want something from the HD store, and VERY Little
if anything is made in the USA! How about a $500 leather jacket from CHINA?

[hogasm]

WOW    17% engine failure

Out of service 11% of the time

Bad front brake lines 24% and Harley said Screw You LAPD

Way to go MOCO .....see only dumb asses buy Harley's.. ..now that is not true.....Screw up a few more things MOCO and we will buy more of your scooters

[CVOTequila]

I too agree, but you haven't bought many items for you Harley have you?
It really pisses me off when I want something from the HD store, and VERY Little
if anything is made in the USA! How about a $500 leather jacket from CHINA?

You are absolutely right, that is why sometimes I make the conscience decision NOT to purchase MoCos products, because they are Made in China!!  Now I will admit, that sometimes in our great efforts to make a good product better, we must purchase items that are made in China.  This is when I desperately try to find a similar product that is Made in the USA........on this great site!!!!! 

[tazmun]

You are absolutely right, that is why sometimes I make the conscience decision NOT to purchase MoCos products, because they are Made in China!!  Now I will admit, that sometimes in our great efforts to make a good product better, we must purchase items that are made in China.  This is when I desperately try to find a similar product that is Made in the USA........on this great site!!!!! 

I may be a little off, but I feel the same way. I have to go to the New Balance shoe store
to get the shoes they make in the USA. I can't get them anywhere else. I can go to Kohl's,
Target, Penney's,Sears and get their cheap China made shoes, but if I want USA, I have to
go to their store. They have shoes made in China, $30 to $60. made in China with US materials,
$45 to $90, then made completely in the USA, +$150. Believe me, last time I was in, only 3 styles!
I can't say they are really any better, but I feel so much BETTER!

[reo]

You hit the nail on the head Jerry, the deal breaker I'm sure was the ability to perform minor warranty work in their own shops. This is a common occurance with big fleets in the trucking industry and it does sell trucks these days....Roy

[CVOTequila]

I may be a little off, but I feel the same way. I have to go to the New Balance shoe store
to get the shoes they make in the USA. I can't get them anywhere else. I can go to Kohl's,
Target, Penney's,Sears and get their cheap China made shoes, but if I want USA, I have to
go to their store. They have shoes made in China, $30 to $60. made in China with US materials,
$45 to $90, then made completely in the USA, +$150. Believe me, last time I was in, only 3 styles!
I can't say they are really any better, but I feel so much BETTER!

Agreed!!!! I only wear NB they are the best shoes on the market..........when will they have a good pair of M/C boots?

[YesItsLoaded]

I found it,
http://www.bmwmc.net/uploads/tm7/LAPD%20Fleet%20Report.pdf

Awesome find Tazmun! (the report was great backup to my OP).

I get the reliability/safety/maintenance issues, but I have a hard time thinking of an American law enforcement agency Motor Unit being anything but all HD - I guess that thinking has to change because the face of American motor units is changing too.

You'd think that with all the business, publicity and pride HD-only motor fleets would give the MoCo, the MoCo would 'give' a little and add a year to the warranty and allow the agency's to do a few repairs in-house: seems like such a small cost compared to such a greater reward.

[09S/E roadglide]

Everybody has made some really good points. A big contract like that was made with some serious back door money ! Thats where the final decision was made !

[nidan]

There are a few other reasons they like them ..see : http://www.policemotorunits.com/id15.html

Michigan tested them as well:
Reported by Craig Fitzgerald, Hemming's Motor News:

Motorcycle guys are more than willing to defend the merits of their specific brands, but it’s not often that you get fair, unbiased testing conducted by a state agency that actually lays out money for the vehicles. The Michigan State Police recently made such testing public, as it embarked upon an evaluation program for its upcoming purchase of a fleet of motorcycles.

The Harley Davidson Road King and FLHTP were evaluated against the BMW R1200RT-P. All three bikes are the most commonly used police machines in the country. Michigan State Police evaluated the motorcycles' performance in handling, braking, acceleration and top speed, as well as the ability to cope with all the special communications and emergency warning needs of the Michigan State Police. Tests were conducted at the DaimlerChrysler Proving Grounds in Chelsea, Michigan.

The results of the testing were dramatic. The BMW was able to negotiate the nine-turn, six-lap handling course as much as 32 seconds faster than the FLHTP Electra Glide. Acceleration and top speed tests also went to the BMW, which achieved a top speed of 130 mph, vs. Harley Davidson's 103 and 107 top speeds. In the quarter mile, the BMW accelerated at least a second and a half faster than the Harley, at a speed 8-mph faster. From 60 miles per hour, the BMW stopped an amazing 21 feet sooner than either of the Harley Davidsons, or approximately a car-length and a half.

Full results of the test are available on the state of Michigan's Web site.
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/VehicleTestBook2009-Motorcycles_260479_7.pdf


Perhaps if the Moco made a V-rod based unit ?

[Ironhorse]

I know folks don't like to see agencies buying Japanese or German motorcycles. But the officers are issued Italian Beretta pistols. Japanese radios and cameras are used in the field, so why not a motorcycle?

It's all about officer safety and cost. That's all. If the KZ1000P came with ABS and fuel injection, the LAPD would still be using them today. It was an excellent bike at a good price. Sure the KZ needed oil, brakes, chains, sprockets and carbs rebuilt and a top end job at 45K but that was about it. None of those Kawasakis ever experienced catasrophic brake failure due to poor design and the inconsistent and improper routing of brake lines.

When HD was bidding for the contract their big selling point was the ABS and maintenence. They said the maintenence would be cheaper because the HD used 2 sparkplugs instead of four, the FI meant that carbs didn't have to be rebuilt, and that the final drive belts were good for 100,000 miles. Reading the horrors of that LAPD report confirmed what a lot of us suspected for a long time. While the HD looks nice and rides nice it's just not built for the rigors of day to day enforcement use. A friend of mine who is a retired motor officer and was one of my instructors said many of the guys transitioning over from KZ to HD had to be retrained. It seems they were "getting on it too hard" when going after violaters. They were too used to turning the key, hitting the starter button and taking off banging through the gears folllowed by a quick shut down. The "unique" HD ECM and fly-by-wire throttle system did not like that and would invariably cause the bike to run and idle funny. So officers had to learn to turn the switch knob, wait a few seconds for the ECM to do it's checks, and then roll away slowly making sure to return the throttle back to it's original position and allowing the engine to return to idle prior shutting it off. Not exactly pursuit friendly.

Back in the 90s I was allowed to purchase four bikes to augment the car units on the streets. I chose the BMW RTs. While I LOVE and ride the HD for fun and for pleasure, deep down inside I knew the BMW would better serve the needs of my squad and the agency. I also carried a German Sig-Sauer and Austrian Glock instead of a S&W. Of course I used Japanese cameras.

Money and officer safety. That's the bottom line.

[faceracer]

I just don't understand why Harley would not try to develop a police bike? The FXRT designed by Eric Buell was a huge step forward for the Harley Police bikes and helped save the company in the early 80's. Why Harley did not continue to move froward and instead rest on there standard designs is beyond me. I would have thought by now they would have some bad arse V-rod police bike? IMHO  

[Markum]

When I was in the Cleveland Police Motorcycle unit, I started out riding a 1985 FLH with 49,000 miles on it. It was bullet proof and I tore it up during the next several years putting an additional 29,000 miles on it. I loved that bike and was amazed on how much abuse the Harley's could take. Replaced one clutch cable. We did allot of escorts for VIPs that came into town. It doesn't seem right to escort the president on BMW's.

[tazmun]

When I was in the Cleveland Police Motorcycle unit, I started out riding a 1985 FLH with 49,000 miles on it. It was bullet proof and I tore it up during the next several years putting an additional 29,000 miles on it. I loved that bike and was amazed on how much abuse the Harley's could take. Replaced one clutch cable. We did allot of escorts for VIPs that came into town. It doesn't seem right to escort the president on BMW's.

Well you could loan them your SEUC, just kidding.
The real problem is Harley, not BMW. Harley still wants to build
1957 Chevys, not 2010 Corvette's!
LAPD uses their bikes 24/7/365, most eastern states are seasonal and
most eastern states lease their bikes from HD, at a very good rate.
They would not have the troubles that the big western fleets have. 

[Ironhorse]

By NOT renewing the LAPD contract, HD may have saved themselves millions of dollars in law suits. Police work is risky enough, and motorcop work is riskier. All of that is compunded when an unsafe motorcycle is added to the equation. All it takes is for one motorcop to become injured or worse, and the major contributing factor deemed to be an unsafe motorcycle.

There is a BRIGHT LINE between something in a "Police Package" and something designed and manufactured specifically for police use made to police specifications. HD and most manufacturers know this. Even the BMW RT/P is just a civillian bike with different body work. This is crucial in todays highly litigious society. If a patrolman goes down on a RoadKing/ElectraGlide while in pursuit in excess of 100mph, HD can take the position that the officer over rode the motorcycles design and capability. The bike they may say, is nothing more than a civillian RoadKing with blue paint and lights and siren and should have been ridden as such. Even Ford has taken this position with their "Police Package Crown Victoria." I don't know of any manufacturer who would make a motorcycle specifically for police work. The legal ramifications are too much. It's just easier to take a civillian bike and dress it up as a police bike. That way failures can be mitigated towards operator error. It becomes easier to say "they were using that bike in a manner in which it was not designed for." That was one of the issues with the LAPD. When all the issues started cropping up, HD specifically told them that the bikes were not designed to idle for long periods of time in traffic, or be started and ridden hard from a standing stop. They were designed to be ridden like the average civillian rider.

I ran into the same issue with my .45 cal Sig-Sauer P220 pistol. The frame rails cracked and I sent it back to the pistolsmiths at Quantico. Yes I got a new one, but it was also explained that the makers never intended the weapon be used under such an extended high cycle firing rate. What the heck that means I don't know, but I'm guessing it means shooting thousands of rounds through it every year was too much for it.

Mark

[faceracer]

So they can't make a better product for everybody or get sued?

[Hoist!]

So they can't make a better product for everybody or get sued?

HeHe!!! Not without negatively effecting their "return to shareholder"! And you know in this day and age, NOTHING will ever be done in any American publicly held Corp. that would negatively effect the return to shareholder!!! FTSH!!!!

Hoist!

[tazmun]

." That was one of the issues with the LAPD. When all the issues started cropping up, HD specifically told them that the bikes were not designed to idle for long periods of time in traffic, or be started and ridden hard from a standing stop. They were designed to be ridden like the average civilian rider.

Now, you have that in writing, correct?? When I look at the MoCO website, they are
SOLD/LEASED as "POLICE MOTORCYCLES". I can't find a single model in the line up
that matches, those offered as POLICE MOTORCYCLES! Looking at the BMW
site, they have a completely different "P" then the normal bike too!

I personally think, the company likes, no loves the sales, but when the "chit"
surfaces, they start "moon walking"!
 

[faceracer]

." That was one of the issues with the LAPD. When all the issues started cropping up, HD specifically told them that the bikes were not designed to idle for long periods of time in traffic, or be started and ridden hard from a standing stop. They were designed to be ridden like the average civilian rider.

Now, you have that in writing, correct?? When I look at the MoCO website, they are
SOLD/LEASED as "POLICE MOTORCYCLES". I can't find a single model in the line up
that matches, those offered as POLICE MOTORCYCLES! Looking at the BMW
site, they have a completely different "P" then the normal bike too!

I personally think, the company likes, no loves the sales, but when the "chit"
surfaces, they start "moon walking"!

EE..He He..... I'll drink to that! Wait a min....... I'll drink to anything

[OhioDave]

EE..He He..... I'll drink to that! Wait a min....... I'll drink to anything

 

[Ironhorse]

I'll drink to your drinkin'.

[tazmun]

I'll drink to your drinkin'.

Ok, lets all find a meeting place and get totally hammered!

[faceracer]

Ok, lets all find a meeting place and get totally hammered!

Deal!

[CVOTequila]

When I was in the Cleveland Police Motorcycle unit, I started out riding a 1985 FLH with 49,000 miles on it. It was bullet proof and I tore it up during the next several years putting an additional 29,000 miles on it. I loved that bike and was amazed on how much abuse the Harley's could take. Replaced one clutch cable. We did allot of escorts for VIPs that came into town. It doesn't seem right to escort the president on BMW's.

Amen to that!!!

[grc]

As someone who invested over 39 years of his life to the domestic auto industry, I think I can state at least one thing that no one can refute.  Thinking that American consumers and American governmental agencies will always support domestic products over all others is a surefire path to oblivion.  Anyone who thinks otherwise either didn't live through the past 50 years, or was asleep or stoned during all the important stuff.

The domestic industry, of which very little remains, had nearly 90% of the sales in this country and basically took the easiest route; give customers flash and style and hype while cutting corners on important stuff like quality, reliability, etcetera.  Does this sound familiar, Harley enthusiast's?  The domestic's didn't really compete, they just traded customers among themselves (guy with a Ford gets pizzed at the quality, buys a Chevy; different guy with a Chevy gets pizzed at the lack of quality, buys a Ford), maintained their share of the market, paid themselves very nice salaries and bonuses, and blew off any idea that competitors from other countries could possibly upset the apple cart.  Then Americans reacted to fuel shortages and price hikes by actually buying those small cheap fuel efficient cars from Japan, and I think we all know the history from that point. 

I also try to buy American whenever possible, and in fact that's I how I became a Harley customer.  But even someone who feels the way I do eventually has to face reality and ask themselves why they would spend twice as much for a product that is inferior to the less expensive foreign products.  I don't mind spending more for domestic if the quality is good (like with New Balance), but I'm no longer willing to pay more for less and also be treated like a piece of dog chit on the manufacturer's shoe.  I would be willing to keep paying more for a Harley if it was reliable and technologically competitive, and management didn't treat customers like sludge, but I don't see them doing anything yet to deserve my future business.

Jerry

[nidan]

I too buy american at every opportunity , that is unfortunately getting less and less.

Corporate america is offshoring everything they can, which will leave us with fat cat executives and service level folks eventually .. And we wonder why the economy is crumbling and unemployment is so high. My company is no different.   

It's sad with the long history of HD in the Police Ranks that they couldn't build an acceptable platform . If it would stand up to the rigors of daily duty and persuit situations, just think how much the normal rider could benefit.

[tazmun]

Jerry, I am in total agreement. One thing I try to understand is WHY all the other car mfg from
around the world set up plants in the good old USA. The Japaness, Korea, Germany, etc, and
they make quality products and give Americans jobs, while people complain the profits go overseas!
The American companies, RUN to outsourse, just for the bottom line.
I just read the following news release from Honda...........I think it's a good read!

01/08/2010 - TORRANCE, Calif. - An all-time high of 83.8 percent of the Honda and Acura automobiles sold in the United States in 2009 were produced* at the company's plants in North America, American Honda Motor Co., Inc., announced today. American Honda has maintained a local production rate of approximately 75 percent or higher since 1996.
Honda operates seven automobile plants in North America - four in the U.S., two in Canada and one in Mexico, producing fifteen different models, including the Civic sedan, coupe and GX (natural gas vehicle), Accord sedan, coupe and Crosstour, Odyssey, Pilot, Ridgeline, CR-V and Element, as well as the Acura TL, ZDX, RDX and MDX models.
Honda's North American plants produced a total of more than one million vehicles in 2009, including those for export and currently in dealer inventory. Of the more than 1.15 million Honda and Acura automobiles sold in the U.S. in 2009, the 83.8 percent local production rate is the highest percentage in the company's 27-year history of making automobiles in the region and by far the highest percentage for any international automaker in 2009.
"As part of our long-standing commitment to build Honda and Acura products close to our customers, we have steadily deepened our automobile manufacturing roots in the U.S. and the North America region," said Tetsuo Iwamura, president & CEO of American Honda Motor Co., Inc. "Using our flexible manufacturing capacity, we plan to continue to maintain our local production levels at approximately 80 percent of our annual sales."
Honda began production of the fuel efficient Honda Civic sedan at its seventh North American auto plant, in Greensburg, Indiana, in October 2008. In 2009, the company added production of two new crossover vehicles - the Honda Accord Crosstour, manufactured in East Liberty, Ohio, and the Acura ZDX, manufactured in Alliston, Ontario - along with the addition of fuel-efficient four-cylinder engine production at a new engine plant in Ontario, Canada.
Honda has exported nearly 960,000 automobiles from its plants in North America to more than 100 countries around the world since 1987, including approximately 27,000 vehicles in 2009, as well as exporting more than 300,000 component parts last year to be used in the assembly of Honda products in other nations.
In addition to automobile production, Honda operates three automobile engine plants in North America - two in the U.S. and one in Canada - along with two U.S. plants for the production of automatic transmissions and gear sets; a power equipment and small engine plant, in North Carolina; and a plant producing Honda all-terrain vehicles, in South Carolina.
Two additional new plants, for the production of the HondaJet advanced light jet and the GE Honda turbofan engine, are under construction in the communities of Greensboro and Burlington, North Carolina, respectively.
 

[arcticdude]

Bullchit!!!!!!!- They didn't want to pay the import taxes, so they built plants here to get around paying the fees.

[rganz]

I tend to agree with you Taz
In Canada the same could be said about the large American companies buying up Canadian companies in the oil industry. People on the street here say the same thing. They want protectionist laws put in place, ownership rules tightened and anything else that they can think of but the bottom line is that in business the strong survive. Good old WalMart (Which I will not set foot in) taught us that many years ago.  The American companies provide us with many jobs and profits go south,,,, That is just a fact of the global economy......... I pay more to  purchase North American products  and for that matter right down to the local level I will support the businesses where I live. As a business owner I believe that it has to be that way, but as a business owner  if I can't supply the goods or service to my customers I totally understand them going to a outside competitor.  Sux but there is no loyalty in retail anymore and people want Walmart price  and A$$ kissing service.


Rob

[tazmun]

Bullchit!!!!!!!- They didn't want to pay the import taxes, so they built plants here to get around paying the fees.

Let me get this straight.... spend billions building plants in the USA to save "how much"!!
Gee, I see thousands of people working for these companies, along with all the
other companies that make all the seats, plastic parts, batteries, etc. My brother-in-law
VP of Sales, works for a very large company making parts for the Big 3, who by the way
told him what they were going to pay for those parts, and then STIFFED them, when they went
Bankrupt. Along the way, he made parts for ALL those companies that MOVED here.
He said they are the easiest people to work with, will work TOGETHER when problems
come up, etc. HIS company had to file for Bankruptcy, because of our good old Big 2.
Sorry I'm venting, but your statement seems 100 miles north of any truths.

[arcticdude]

Prior to them building ANY factories here, how many vehicles per year were they importing???  A couple million, give or take a few.  Now tax that number by $300-400 per vehicle.  And that's just in ONE year.  It doesn't take long before a 10 Billion investment in factories has MORE than paid off.  Even the outrageous fees of the unions are tiny compared to what the imports would have been paying by continuing to import their vehicles.


Just how many parts do you think are truly made here???


As far as the American manufacturers go, they've been chitting on their buyers for years.  Why do I buy American? It's certainly not because they build a superior vehicle, they just happen to build the only one that fits my needs.  Ten years from now, that will probably change.

[CVOJOE]

The maintenance [costs] of the 2005 to 2008 [Harley Davidson] motors were higher than expected and the reliability was less than expected

,

Have they been reading our complaints here or something?  :  Maybe this year will bring a new attitude and emphasis on quality and reliability from the MOCO. Yah right!!

 

[tazmun]

"As far as the American manufacturers go, they've been chitting on their buyers for years.  Why do I buy American? It's certainly not because they build a superior vehicle, they just happen to build the only one that fits my needs.  Ten years from now, that will probably change."

  Good statement..... Sure hope it's a Ford!   No, they have ALL been chitting on their suppliers
too! Like I said, my brother-in-laws company lost millions in the "goverment bailout" Come to think
of it, so did us tax payers!
 Again, we all have our opinions, and I respect yours, but again I say look at all those employed
by those so called "import duty" skipping companies. You know those duties, never seem to
come back to the tax payer, now do they? 

[arcticdude]

The only "extra" people they are employing are the one specifically in the factories.  No extra dealers or any other personnel.  AND they've taken work AWAY from the dock workers who would have off loaded their incoming ships.

And the duties allowed the POS building American companies to remain in business for a whole lot longer than they should have, given the crap they were building in the 70's and 80's.  The duties were SPECIFICALLY put there to raise the cost of an import, so it would cost as much as what the American cars did.  Or did your bil forget to tell you about all the money his company made back then???  They were making TONS of cash back then.  You're only looking at a very small section of what occurred back then.  I was selling imports during that time, so I have a pretty good handle on what was occurring.

[tazmun]

" AND they've taken work AWAY from the dock workers who would have off loaded their incoming ships".

I guess we just don't import anything anymore?

[grandpadoc]

" AND they've taken work AWAY from the dock workers who would have off loaded their incoming ships".

I guess we just don't import anything anymore?

My brother is a crane operator in Long Beach and he says the Chinese, who pretty much ran the port, have pulled out because of the new environmental restrictions. Now Canada has their business and our dock workers, freight haulers, rail workers and support folks are out of work. I guess the lesson is we need learn is to make our own chit instead of importing it. I had a economics professor in college defined the deficit as simply "the difference between them making it and us making it ...someone has to pay" and its going to be us, our kids and grandkids. For years we were on the winning side of that equation but now because of the US abandonment of manufacturing we are dependent on unstable foreign governments. With our manufacturing industry drying up, especially heavy industry, who is going to make our ships, tanks, artillery when it hits the fan again...GM,Ford,Chrysler,Harley ...China

Doc

[spydglide]

With our manufacturing industry drying up, especially heavy industry, who is going to make our ships, tanks, artillery when it hits the fan again...GM,Ford,Chrysler,Harley ...China

Doc

'Low-bidder', as always.    spyder

[tazmun]

'Low-bidder', as always.    spyder

 That's the real problem. Just like the bankers, Wall Street, their only in it for the buck.
 The "American" way is how can I chit on someone to make that extra buck?
All you have to do is look at our HD company. They run overseas to get all the P&A,
clothing, and anything else. It's sad, but that's the way we are.

[grc]

My brother is a crane operator in Long Beach and he says the Chinese, who pretty much ran the port, have pulled out because of the new environmental restrictions. Now Canada has their business and our dock workers, freight haulers, rail workers and support folks are out of work. I guess the lesson is we need learn is to make our own chit instead of importing it. I had a economics professor in college defined the deficit as simply "the difference between them making it and us making it ...someone has to pay" and its going to be us, our kids and grandkids. For years we were on the winning side of that equation but now because of the US abandonment of manufacturing we are dependent on unstable foreign governments. With our manufacturing industry drying up, especially heavy industry, who is going to make our ships, tanks, artillery when it hits the fan again...GM,Ford,Chrysler,Harley ...China

Doc

It has been obvious, especially over the past 10 years or so, that both the political class and the wealthy class in this country have decided that manufacturing is a dirty profession that involves too much effort and risk to make the big bucks.  They would much rather just sit behind desks and shuffle other people's money around while taking a big chunk for themselves.  And so far they have been proved right; just look at how much the leeches on Wall Street are taking home this year, after using OUR money to survive THEIR failures.

As for who will build the heavy equipment for the next war, I sure hope it isn't Harley.  I'd hate to be a tank driver and have to rely on H-D quality and reliability to keep me alive. 

Jerry

[sadunbar]

It has been obvious, especially over the past 10 years or so, that both the political class and the wealthy class in this country have decided that manufacturing is a dirty profession that involves too much effort and risk to make the big bucks.  They would much rather just sit behind desks and shuffle other people's money around while taking a big chunk for themselves.   And so far they have been proved right; just look at how much the leeches on Wall Street are taking home this year, after using OUR money to survive THEIR failures.

As for who will build the heavy equipment for the next war, I sure hope it isn't Harley.  I'd hate to be a tank driver and have to rely on H-D quality and reliability to keep me alive. 

Jerry

Could not have said it better myself...

[spydglide]

As for who will build the heavy equipment for the next war, I sure hope it isn't Harley.  I'd hate to be a tank driver and have to rely on H-D quality and reliability to keep me alive. 

Jerry

Probably wouldn't be too different than in the past.....but, never fear, Jerry, the G.I.s will figure how to make it work (field-expediency).  har.  spyder

[grandpadoc]

Probably wouldn't be too different than in the past.....but, never fear, Jerry, the G.I.s will figure how to make it work (field-expediency).  har.  spyder

I think your right spyder. All this high tech stuff will be real cute for a few months and then it will be down to the grunts to win the war. I was in the Marine Corps as a artillery spotter and I think Harley made the shell casings and they worked pretty good most of the time...good enough. The high tech chit is cute but doesn't last as long as a grunt with a rifle and attitude.  Doc

[Ironhorse]

I'd hate to be a tank driver and have to rely on H-D quality and reliability to keep me alive. 

Or a motorcop for that matter.

[Loufish]

Hello, my first post...

Very interesting thread, given I work for a "a very large So Cal based Law Enforcement Agency, responsible for their vehicle maintenance"...read between the lines...

LAPD would have liked to stay with the HD's, but there comes a time when enough is enough...

The HD have proved to be not quite up to the continuous rigors of city policing. The city of Los Angeles like many other cites faces budget shortfalls, but buys a more expensive motor bike?...You guys seem pretty smart, that has to be a red flag...and no back door deals, plain old fashion frustration drove this decision.

The released report has been quoted several times as to the lower cost per mile, 28 cents but that includes warranty work covered. And the report goes on to estimate the actual cost will be closer to .38 per mile after the bikes are out of warranty which puts it highest in the group reported.

The other issue glossed over is the vehicle out of service numbers, which basically tell you how many vehicles do you have available right now for emergency use.
The HD's have done very poorly in this area and it doesn't matter if the bikes were given to you for free, if they're not available then they are worthless...

This is plain and simple...The HD's didn't work out...time to find something else that will. I'm not going to bash any agency or manufacture and not pointing fingers, this what it boiled down to...

Thanks for letting me add my 2 cents...

[Ironhorse]

The other issue glossed over is the vehicle out of service numbers, which basically tell you how many vehicles do you have available right now for emergency use.

Which is why they keep a fleet of Kawasakis on hand. Those are pressed into service when the HDs are down.

[grc]

Which is why they keep a fleet of Kawasakis on hand. Those are pressed into service when the HDs are down.

And that is a method that a few folks on this site have used as well.  Keep another brand on hand, or several H-D's, so they can still ride when the Harley is laid up (again) for repairs.  There will eventually come a time, I truly believe, when folks will finally decide that being "cool" isn't as important as reliability and performance, and when that time comes H-D is in a serious world of hurt.

Jerry

[Talon]

It kinda goes back to the cars of the mid 70's. American cars were falling apart after 3 years 60-70,000 miles, Honda was sending over cars that would run for over 100,000. No one liked the fact that a foreign manufacture was selling so many cars here, but it forced Detroit to start improving their cars. Maybe it's about time for Harley to do the same, look at all the problems people have been having with the 110's and the lame excuses from dealers! The PD needs bikes they can depend on, is that todays Harley?

[MUFFMAN]

Gotta tell you. June of last year while riding in  New York my crank let loose on my FLHTUSE2. Had it repaired under warranty & it was never the same. I had back surgery in August and sold the bike. Being off a bike for 6 months gave me ample time to look around at the competition & I came very close to getting a Wing. Couldn't bring myself to do it & have a FLHTUSE5 coming in April. If this one screws me up it will be my last HD until they build a better product.

[Buy early]

Hello, my first post...

Very interesting thread, given I work for a "a very large So Cal based Law Enforcement Agency, responsible for their vehicle maintenance"...read between the lines...

LAPD would have liked to stay with the HD's, but there comes a time when enough is enough...

The HD have proved to be not quite up to the continuous rigors of city policing. The city of Los Angeles like many other cites faces budget shortfalls, but buys a more expensive motor bike?...You guys seem pretty smart, that has to be a red flag...and no back door deals, plain old fashion frustration drove this decision.

The released report has been quoted several times as to the lower cost per mile, 28 cents but that includes warranty work covered. And the report goes on to estimate the actual cost will be closer to .38 per mile after the bikes are out of warranty which puts it highest in the group reported.

The other issue glossed over is the vehicle out of service numbers, which basically tell you how many vehicles do you have available right now for emergency use.
The HD's have done very poorly in this area and it doesn't matter if the bikes were given to you for free, if they're not available then they are worthless...

This is plain and simple...The HD's didn't work out...time to find something else that will. I'm not going to bash any agency or manufacture and not pointing fingers, this what it boiled down to...

Thanks for letting me add my 2 cents...

Thanks for joining the debate Loufish! Always great to hear from someone close to the issue. When you have a minute, drop by the New Member area and introduce yourself. I am sure you could be a very valuable contributor to this community. You have probably seen things on these bikes many of us will face in the future.

[tazmun]

Gotta tell you. June of last year while riding in  New York my crank let loose on my FLHTUSE2. Had it repaired under warranty & it was never the same. I had back surgery in August and sold the bike. Being off a bike for 6 months gave me ample time to look around at the competition & I came very close to getting a Wing. Couldn't bring myself to do it & have a FLHTUSE5 coming in April. If this one screws me up it will be my last HD until they build a better product.

  That's why the MoCo, doesn't really get better! They know the "faithful" will continue to follow.
If we sit back and look at all the posts from an objective point of view, I be thinking WTF, why do
we continue?
  I can honestly say, if I had seen as many problems with my "kudmobile", I would definitely
go buy a different brand. Like someone else just said, "that's what happened in the 70/80's
with the skudmobile companies". I sure don't have that good feeling on my bike on a long trip.

[hooligan]

Regardless.......If we don't support our own we won't have jobs to buy anything from anybody.It's best to keep our money in our own country.I always avoid purchasing products not made in the US or Canada. I proudly display two bumper stickers on my truck: "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign"
and "Made in CANADA Matters" If you start looking at labels you will actually realise  where your hard earned dollars are going... CHINA,Honduras,Malaysia,Mexico etc.
Screw free trade and make it FAIR TRADE if you don't buy from us we don't buy from you and it must be dollar for dollar.