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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: Grey Ghost on May 08, 2012, 10:20:18 PM
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I have a new 2011 CVO SERGU with only 190 miles. The clattering noise from the motor is going to drive me nuts. It is present when the motor is both hot and cold and seems to be louder when hot. The noise starts at about 1800 revs and continues all the way past 3000 revs. I have received the typical response from the dealer . . . "they all do that". . . "it's normal" . . . and the best one . . . "get some miles on it and it should go away".
Interestingly, the noise started at about 75-100 miles on the odometer and gradually got worse.
I have gone through the previous threads about this issue and have learned that some of the members have got the dealer to replace the lifters and pushrods under warrantee. I am looking for a bit of advice on how to break the dealer log jam and look into the problem.
I have been looking into the S&S Quickee Pushrods as a possible solution. Does anyone know if they have them for the 110. I can't find that specifically stated in their catalog. (They haven't respinded to email communication) If I replace the Pushrods, am I better off replacing the lifters at the same time??
Are there any other causes for this clattering noise that I might be overlooking??
Any thoughts are appreciated.
Grey Ghost
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I've been "blessed" with a noisy motor, too. In addition to lifters, several people more knowledgeable than I have suggested the following possibilities when they heard my bike:
Sticky valves
Oil bleed down in the lifters. Should disappear after it warms up.
Piston slap. Mine develops at about 1800rpm and goes to 2200rpm, like yours, then disappears until 2900rpm, where it starts again. I've read on other sites that this is a common pattern of piston slap.
Lifters. I had my lifters replaced, and the noises are as bad as ever. :wall:
Wearing compensator.
Like you and many others, I've been told these are all "normal" noises. I'm not buying their excuses. I've heard calling customer service can light a fire under a dealer's azz, or even threaten with a lawsuit, but you need to try to get the dealers to take care of things before a lawsuit.
Good Luck, maybe we could get enough people together to file a class action lawsuit??? :sauer052:
Dan
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Sorry. I replaced lifters and pushrods and it didnt help. Tore the engine down after it started spitting oil and found it had piston slap and a bad valve seat. I wouldnt do to many mods to it because hd will try and pass the blame onto you. Good luck
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We have built/set-up, 7, 110"ers since 1/1/12.
Piston fitment seems to be well within specs, and they are quiet operating engines once completed.
Harley B lifters(now gone from our stock), or S&S lifters loaded to .140-.150", S&S pushrods, and a variety of cams.
??????
Scott
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Sadly, as has been noted by some who have been down this road, there is no one simple answer to engine noise issues. There are many possible contributors to the situation, and just throwing parts at it is unlikely to solve anything. Most folks seem to always think any clicking or ticking noise is caused by lifters, for instance. Not necessarily true. And then there is the fact that a small amount of mechanical noise is in fact just part of the beast. The trick is figuring out which sounds are in fact normal and which sounds signal a real problem.
All I can suggest is making certain you get your concerns on record both with your dealer and with H-D Customer Disservice, then ride it for awhile to see if the sound changes. I would suggest taking it to a different dealership in hopes they have a better tech who can perform real diagnostics rather than just offer up the easy answer "they all do it", but the odds are against finding that guy at any of the Harley shops I've been in. Harley won't pay them to just tear stuff apart looking for "possible" problems, so unless you find an independently wealthy tech who just enjoys figuring out stuff like this, nothing will be done until something fails.
Jerry
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We have built/set-up, 7, 110"ers since 1/1/12.
Piston fitment seems to be well within specs, and they are quiet operating engines once completed.
Harley B lifters(now gone from our stock), or S&S lifters loaded to .140-.150", S&S pushrods, and a variety of cams.
??????
Scott
You are thinking along the sames lines as I am. I can't say definitely that there is no piston slap, but it sure doesn't sound like it. As for the lifter/pushrod replacement . . . going with S&S doesn't violate the warrantee?? And, you are recommending replacing the cams as well??
My biggest question is . . . How do I ge the dealer to perform this as a warrantee effort??
Grey Ghost
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You are thinking along the sames lines as I am. I can't say definitely that there is no piston slap, but it sure doesn't sound like it. As for the lifter/pushrod replacement . . . going with S&S doesn't violate the warrantee?? And, you are recommending replacing the cams as well??
My biggest question is . . . How do I ge the dealer to perform this as a warrantee effort??
Grey Ghost
Warranty will not pay to install aftermarket parts in your engine, so you need to forget that. Also, aftermarket parts installed in your engine can allow them to void the warranty on the engine if they can find some way to blame the aftermarket part for whatever failure may occur. Even if you asked them to install Harley SE adjustable pushrods, warranty won't pay for that either.
If you have another dealership nearby, ask them to evaluate your engine noise. Odds are you will get the same quick answer you got at the other place, but you won't know until you try. Then contact H-D yourself, get the whole thing on record, and ask them to have their service rep (an actual H-D employee, not a dealership employee) evaluate the bike. Get all these evaluations in writing, btw.
Jerry
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Warranty will not pay to install aftermarket parts in your engine, so you need to forget that. Also, aftermarket parts installed in your engine can allow them to void the warranty on the engine if they can find some way to blame the aftermarket part for whatever failure may occur. Even if you asked them to install Harley SE adjustable pushrods, warranty won't pay for that either.
If you have another dealership nearby, ask them to evaluate your engine noise. Odds are you will get the same quick answer you got at the other place, but you won't know until you try. Then contact H-D yourself, get the whole thing on record, and ask them to have their service rep (an actual H-D employee, not a dealership employee) evaluate the bike. Get all these evaluations in writing, btw.
Jerry
Thanks Jerry, Your points are well taken . . . Fortunately, there are 3 dealers within 30 miles. This is sort of a nice feeling . . . Pay upwards of $30,000 for a motorcycle just to have to deal with this sort of thing!!
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Greyghost, My 09 makes a noise between 2200-2800 that sounds like what you are describing.( I have ranted about this before). It is quiet below and above those rpms hot or cold, and sounds the same now as when it was brand new. I recently bumped into a local HD mechanic in town who has worked on my bike. I brought up the noise issue with him and he said in most cases the noise I am hearing is going to be piston slap. So I asked him why and he said that it was because the design of the piston (piston skirt is very short). Since my bike has a very minimal oil consumtion there is no way I am going to have the pistons and rings replaced. I will live with the noise until it starts using oil. However, I did have a lifter bleed down twice while on vacation. Sounded like a bent pushrod for about 15 seconds both times then went away. Naturally it would not do it at the HD dealership. I had the same issue on an S&S 107 in my 95 Heritage and again most people would swear it was valve train noise, but when they, Bennett's in Long Beach, finally got it to sound like it was suppose to it was because they replaced the pistons and rings with the correct clearance. S&S couldn't seem to get it right. I did not have a good experience with their customer service. Thankfully that was all under warranty. If I would have had a chance to test ride my bike before I cut the dealer a check I would have made them fix the noises or there would have been no deal. CAHDBIKER
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Greyghost, My 09 makes a noise between 2200-2800 that sounds like what you are describing.( I have ranted about this before). It is quiet below and above those rpms hot or cold, and sounds the same now as when it was brand new. I recently bumped into a local HD mechanic in town who has worked on my bike. I brought up the noise issue with him and he said in most cases the noise I am hearing is going to be piston slap. So I asked him why and he said that it was because the design of the piston (piston skirt is very short). Since my bike has a very minimal oil consumtion there is no way I am going to have the pistons and rings replaced. I will live with the noise until it starts using oil. However, I did have a lifter bleed down twice while on vacation. Sounded like a bent pushrod for about 15 seconds both times then went away. Naturally it would not do it at the HD dealership. I had the same issue on an S&S 107 in my 95 Heritage and again most people would swear it was valve train noise, but when they, Bennett's in Long Beach, finally got it to sound like it was suppose to it was because they replaced the pistons and rings with the correct clearance. S&S couldn't seem to get it right. I did not have a good experience with their customer service. Thankfully that was all under warranty. If I would have had a chance to test ride my bike before I cut the dealer a check I would have made them fix the noises or there would have been no deal. CAHDBIKER
CAHDBIKER, Thanks you for your thoughts. The funny thing is, I did test ride this bike before buying. The noise started up in the 75 - 100 mile range on the odometer. You are the second person that mentions piston slap as a possible source of the noise. I will continue my dialogue with the dealer and checkout the other 2 dealers in the area for input, but like you will, in all likelyhood, ride this out until something more detrimental occurs.
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If I would have had a chance to test ride my bike before I cut the dealer a check I would have made them fix the noises or there would have been no deal. CAHDBIKER
That is unfortunately sad but true--and in my case--the exact same thing. My motor makes enough noise that sometimes I get as little worried. But as usual, the dealer says it's normal and all the 110's do that. I am ready to take a few hundred mile ride up to Hillside Cycle to get another opinion. There really is no shop close that I would trust to open it up.
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Something of a consideration here is that most people seem to use synthetic oil. While the viscosity rating is supposed to be inherently similar to conventional, it seems thinner at any temperature. Not knowing what oil is being used in your machines...it would be interesting to know if this tapping noise would be reduced by reverting back to a conventional oil...merely as a test. It seems to me that when I switched to using synthetic, I noticed more pronounced tapping noises...maybe my imagination...but, have learned to accept it.
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PLEASE don't start that synthetic oil stuff again. Trust me, the SYN3 in his engine is almost exactly the same viscosity as the HD360 dino oil - not just the SAE rating of 50 weight, but the actual viscosity measured in centistokes at 100°C (212°F).
Running thicker and thicker fluids to quiet noises isn't a good answer btw. It tends to remind me of the old days when folks trying to peddle old clapped out cars or trucks would load up the trans and rear end with heavy gear oil or even grease, and load up the engine with that super thick STP.
Jerry
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PLEASE don't start that synthetic oil stuff again. Trust me, the SYN3 in his engine is almost exactly the same viscosity as the HD360 dino oil - not just the SAE rating of 50 weight, but the actual viscosity measured in centistokes at 100°C (212°F).
Running thicker and thicker fluids to quiet noises isn't a good answer btw. It tends to remind me of the old days when folks trying to peddle old clapped out cars or trucks would load up the trans and rear end with heavy gear oil or even grease, and load up the engine with that super thick STP.
Jerry
I was just throwing it out there reverting back to conventional as a test (maybe at next oil change)....not intending to bring up the heated lubrication debates in another thread....again. :)
However, have you guys considered HD Owners tip #59 ? Trust me...it works.
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PLEASE don't start that synthetic oil stuff again. Trust me, the SYN3 in his engine is almost exactly the same viscosity as the HD360 dino oil - not just the SAE rating of 50 weight, but the actual viscosity measured in centistokes at 100°C (212°F).
Running thicker and thicker fluids to quiet noises isn't a good answer btw. It tends to remind me of the old days when folks trying to peddle old clapped out cars or trucks would load up the trans and rear end with heavy gear oil or even grease, and load up the engine with that super thick STP.
Jerry
Hey Jerry.....Lets try Marvel Mystery oil and see if it helps :huepfenlol2:
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Any Harley that is not making a lot of noise has quit running. ;D I have learned to live some rattle and shake since my bikes keep taking me down the road. The day they quit running i will consider the noises to have been a problem. :P
I guess there is a line dividing paranoia and prudent concern. Probably more like a huge gray sea. :jester:
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Running thicker and thicker fluids to quiet noises isn't a good answer btw. It tends to remind me of the old days when folks trying to peddle old clapped out cars or trucks would load up the trans and rear end with heavy gear oil or even grease, and load up the engine with that super thick STP.
Jerry
Those weren't even my favorites Jerry. Can remember as a early teenage kid working in a Texaco station old timers telling tales of whale oil and bringing in fine sawdust to ask to be dropped in noisy manual transmissions and rear ends. I still get a kick thinking about all the fine special use products that an old line filling station still had on the shelf in the early 70s that were throwbacks from as far back as the 40s and 50s. Wildly speculative suggestions of amazing claims.
It was all too often so much bubkus. But it was interesting. In the same way that the lottery is taxes for the arithmetically challenged the various product claims about fancy spark plugs, goober sized plug wires, whale (or other non-synthetic) oils and intake manifold/carburetor venturi caps (et.al.) illustrate why advertising is such a lucrative endeavor.
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PLEASE don't start that synthetic oil stuff again. Trust me, the SYN3 in his engine is almost exactly the same viscosity as the HD360 dino oil - not just the SAE rating of 50 weight, but the actual viscosity measured in centistokes at 100°C (212°F).
Running thicker and thicker fluids to quiet noises isn't a good answer btw. It tends to remind me of the old days when folks trying to peddle old clapped out cars or trucks would load up the trans and rear end with heavy gear oil or even grease, and load up the engine with that super thick STP.
Jerry
Service manual for 2000 Softail; (which BTW, runs cooler than it's 110" counterpart)
Page 1-11
Table 1-1. Recommended Oil Grades
H.D. Multi-grade SAE 10W40 for below 40* :2vrolijk_21:
H.D. Multi-grade SAE 20W50 for above 40* :2vrolijk_21:
H.D. Regular Heavy SAE 50W for above 60* :2vrolijk_21:
H.D. Extra Heavy SAE 60W for above 80* :2vrolijk_21:
Scott
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Service manual for 2000 Softail; (which BTW, runs cooler than it's 110" counterpart)
Page 1-11
Table 1-1. Recommended Oil Grades
H.D. Multi-grade SAE 10W40 for below 40* :2vrolijk_21:
H.D. Multi-grade SAE 20W50 for above 40* :2vrolijk_21:
H.D. Regular Heavy SAE 50W for above 60* :2vrolijk_21:
H.D. Extra Heavy SAE 60W for above 80* :2vrolijk_21:
Scott
Didn't the MOCO swear off all synthetic oil's twelve years ago - back in 2000? Wouldn't you expect a Twin Cam 88 to run cooler than a Twin Cam 110? What year did the MOCO acknowledge the superiority of synthetic oils (what year did they started marketing SYN3 oil)?
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Syn 3?
You mean "the one size that fits all 3 holes, oil".
Kinda' reminds me of the Shovel days where 50W was used for the engine, and the gearbox.
In my opinion, the started selling it too soon, but now we will be stepping into the oil-head engines, which will cool the temps off, maintain viscosity better, and lifter hydrology, but, oh, wait, what about oil leaks now?
It'll never end............. :D
Scott
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What about Saw Dust mixed with Syn 3?? :P
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What about Saw Dust mixed with Syn 3?? :P
Seems like a waste of good sawdust....
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I seem to recall banana peels in the differential and (manual) trans. Oatmeal in the radiator for leaks. Sounds like breakfast ;D
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Now that they make cars so good you never need to work on then we all run out and buy harleys so we will have plenty to work on!
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Thanks to all for your replies and information . . . I rode my clattering bike to the dealer this afternoon to talk about the problem. Not a pleasant experience . . . I received quite a number of lectures on everything from how terrible these sort of forums are, how terrible Syn3 is, how terrible AmsOil is, how terrible a rider I am :confused5: and that everything will be OK until I get to my 1k service and they will let me know then if there is anything wrong. I couldn't even get the Service Manager to walk out and listen to the bike. I will have to call for an appointment to get a 'tech' to do that. :wall: :furious3:
So . . . In search of a new dealer!!
BTW . . . Does anyone have feedback on the cost for the 1k Service?
Grey Ghost
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Thanks to all for your replies and information . . . I rode my clattering bike to the dealer this afternoon to talk about the problem. Not a pleasant experience . . . I received quite a number of lectures on everything from how terrible these sort of forums are, how terrible Syn3 is, how terrible AmsOil is, how terrible a rider I am :confused5: and that everything will be OK until I get to my 1k service and they will let me know then if there is anything wrong. I couldn't even get the Service Manager to walk out and listen to the bike. I will have to call for an appointment to get a 'tech' to do that. :wall: :furious3:
So . . . In search of a new dealer!!
BTW . . . Does anyone have feedback on the cost for the 1k Service?
Grey Ghost
Good luck with that!
I travel about 160 miles to a dealer I can trust.
:nixweiss:
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Thanks to all for your replies and information . . . I rode my clattering bike to the dealer this afternoon to talk about the problem. Not a pleasant experience . . . I received quite a number of lectures on everything from how terrible these sort of forums are, how terrible Syn3 is, how terrible AmsOil is, how terrible a rider I am :confused5: and that everything will be OK until I get to my 1k service and they will let me know then if there is anything wrong. I couldn't even get the Service Manager to walk out and listen to the bike. I will have to call for an appointment to get a 'tech' to do that. :wall: :furious3:
So . . . In search of a new dealer!!
BTW . . . Does anyone have feedback on the cost for the 1k Service?
Grey Ghost
Sorry about how the Dealer treated you.
Even though I was pissed my motor let loose, I was supper happy how my dealer took care of me.
They gave me no chit at all, said it was covered and would fix with no prob, didn't ask how I drove it, what oil I used or any crap like that.
And they said all that before I said I was gonna trade it.
Plus my Dealer gives you the 1,000 service with a purchase.
You may need to drive some to find a good Dealer, but will be very happy when you do.
It can make a bad situation a lot better IMHO.
I do agree with Mike, they are hard to find!!!!
Big Dave
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BTW . . . Does anyone have feedback on the cost for the 1k Service?
Grey Ghost
Wouldn't know... I've never paid for one and never will. :sauer055:
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Does anyone have feedback on the cost for the 1k Service?
Depends on some stuff, but probably will be a couple hundred fifty.
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Then I suppose $430 is a little out of line :puke:
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Something of a consideration here is that most people seem to use synthetic oil. While the viscosity rating is supposed to be inherently similar to conventional, it seems thinner at any temperature. Not knowing what oil is being used in your machines...it would be interesting to know if this tapping noise would be reduced by reverting back to a conventional oil...merely as a test. It seems to me that when I switched to using synthetic, I noticed more pronounced tapping noises...maybe my imagination...but, have learned to accept it.
Dealer recommended I put conventional oil in. Did not change. Told me what I am hearing are the valve springs...... :'(
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Then I suppose $430 is a little out of line :puke:
OMG, are you kidding me.
I would never pay that much for what amounts to me to be nothing more then a fluid change and maybe a fall away test if the tech feels like doing it.
JMHO
Big DAve
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greyghost, I paid $350.00 for th 1K service at my local dealership. I only did it for warranty purposes. Since then I have done all my own services. The service manual is not that pricey and it is really pretty easy as most guys here would agree. CAHDBIKER
Then I suppose $430 is a little out of line :puke:
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Then I suppose $430 is a little out of line :puke:
Not really, lots of dealers get that in SoCal. Some charge more!
Shop rates run about $100hr also.
Just the sign of the times, I guess.
:nixweiss:
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Thanks to all for your replies and information . . . I rode my clattering bike to the dealer this afternoon to talk about the problem. Not a pleasant experience . . . I received quite a number of lectures on everything from how terrible these sort of forums are, how terrible Syn3 is, how terrible AmsOil is, how terrible a rider I am :confused5: and that everything will be OK until I get to my 1k service and they will let me know then if there is anything wrong. I couldn't even get the Service Manager to walk out and listen to the bike. I will have to call for an appointment to get a 'tech' to do that. :wall: :furious3:
So . . . In search of a new dealer!!
BTW . . . Does anyone have feedback on the cost for the 1k Service?
Grey Ghost
A "tech" that held his last job, over a McDonalds burger griddle?
About 22 years old, trying like hell to beat the flat rate, just to have enough gas money to try for that again, next week.
Scott
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A "tech" that held his last job, over a McDonalds burger griddle?
About 22 years old, trying like hell to beat the flat rate, just to have enough gas money to try for that again, next week.
Scott
Yeah, but he now has a Phd patch sewn over the golden arches patch on his shirt!
8)
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Okay I agree with most of what has been said in this thread but...... as a tech in a Franchised shop how am I supposed to handle these complaints when :
1) HD don't pay for a teardown.
2) I have never seen this rider again and if the bike does get fixed somehow will never see him again.
3) Why isn't his selling dealer taking care of him?
4) With all the expertise on this site and others no one seems to have an answer.
I agree about some techs just came from mickey dee's but I get really pissed off when a cheap a-- customer of ours goes to another dealer to get his PowerCommander there and then comes to me and complains about his 103 cranking and starting hard because the other dealer tech shut off the ACR's because that is what you have to do when you install a PCV on a FBW 103. How stupid are these people. A lot if you want my opinion. Sorry had a bad week with dumb customers
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Okay I agree with most of what has been said in this thread but...... as a tech in a Franchised shop how am I supposed to handle these complaints when :
1) HD don't pay for a teardown.
2) I have never seen this rider again and if the bike does get fixed somehow will never see him again.
3) Why isn't his selling dealer taking care of him?
4) With all the expertise on this site and others no one seems to have an answer.
I agree about some techs just came from mickey dee's but I get really pissed off when a cheap a-- customer of ours goes to another dealer to get his PowerCommander there and then comes to me and complains about his 103 cranking and starting hard because the other dealer tech shut off the ACR's because that is what you have to do when you install a PCV on a FBW 103. How stupid are these people. A lot if you want my opinion. Sorry had a bad week with dumb customers
What the customer got elsewhere and where is now may be annoying. But it's isolated from the initial questions of the moment. To your four questions I'd suggest:
1) HD don't pay for a teardown. Do you legitimately think there may be a problem? If yes and if the bike is in warranty the customer is due the effort. Period. Unfortunately for the shop nothing else (should) matter. Just as it is illegitimate for a customer to expect free work out of warranty it is also illegitimate for a shop to expect the customer to bear the cost of diagnosis and repair within the warranty period.
2) I have never seen this rider again and if the bike does get fixed somehow will never see him again. Unfortunately, if the equipment is in warranty, that doesn't matter. If you're a factory dealership you're part of the warranty network. Just as with #1 above, if the machine is out of warranty there's a conversation to be had with the customer. If he's in warranty the franchised dealership of the manufacturer should just deliver. It may not seem fair. But it evens out. As many of your original buying customers will get service at other shops as the buying customers of those other shops come to you for service. So while it may seem annoying on a case by case basis it will even out and you'll never even know when your original purchasers are elsewhere.
3) Why isn't his selling dealer taking care of him? A definite question of curiosity and even concern. But irrelevant to the fact that he's at your door with a warranty problem right now. The more proper context of this question might be: "This guy bought somewhere else and is here now. Maybe he's not happy. So if I serve him well he'll buy here next time."
4) With all the expertise on this site and others no one seems to have an answer. That's a bit of a cop out. All the "experts" here really aren't. We're just a bunch of guys who ride some and have some decent familiarity. More importantly; none of us have the bike in hand. The servicing shop does (or did). That being so who should have the better insight as to what the problem is?
Seriously, I don't think it's any more fair for a customer to show up one day out of warranty asking for free service than it would be for a dealer to try to deny warranty service because the warranty only had one day left (or for any other reason). It is a two way street. If, however, the rules of the system allow the man to be at your door (as they do) and there's a chance he's got a problem then work on the bike. Period. That's how the system should work. Do him a good job and you've made a customer. Complain about the fact that he's there and you'll become just another shop not worth coming back to. Those really are (or should be) the choices faced by the shops.
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Well SAID..
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CaptDave,
I appreciate your comments and apparent frustration. . . This sidebar for the Tappet Noise question I started was due to my frustration regarding an individual being paid as a Service Manager, that decided to be condescending and disrespectful to me as a customer. I don't care how stupid my question is (and my noise issue I don't is), as long as I treat him with respect as an individual and for his position, he should do the same.
What makes this situation worse, is this dealer charges approx 2x what other dealers charge for the same service.
All I ask as a customer is to be treated with honesty/respect and to receive fair value or service for what I pay. Nothing more!!
Grey Ghost
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Okay I agree with most of what has been said in this thread but...... as a tech in a Franchised shop how am I supposed to handle these complaints when :
1) HD don't pay for a teardown.
2) I have never seen this rider again and if the bike does get fixed somehow will never see him again.
3) Why isn't his selling dealer taking care of him?
4) With all the expertise on this site and others no one seems to have an answer.
I agree about some techs just came from mickey dee's but I get really pissed off when a cheap a-- customer of ours goes to another dealer to get his PowerCommander there and then comes to me and complains about his 103 cranking and starting hard because the other dealer tech shut off the ACR's because that is what you have to do when you install a PCV on a FBW 103. How stupid are these people. A lot if you want my opinion. Sorry had a bad week with dumb customers
1) HD don't pay for a teardown. That's between the MOCO and the dealership. It's irrelevant to the owner of the bike with a problem while under warranty...
2) I have never seen this rider again and if the bike does get fixed somehow will never see him again. Maybe, maybe not - what was the result of the experience for the customer? Good or bad? You may have gained a customer... But again, it's irrelevant to the owner of the bike with a problem under warranty.
3) Why isn't his selling dealer taking care of him? Maybe an interesting question, but again, it's really doesn't matter why the customer's at your door. Perhaps it's the beginning of a long term customer/dealer relationship.
4) With all the expertise on this site and others no one seems to have an answer. No one on the site has the bike in their possession... Internet forum diagnosis is interesting banter sometimes, but problem solving generally requires hands on actions...
Your comments seem borne from frustration of the warranty relationship between the MOCO and dealerships... The customer with valid and active warranty in hand doesn't really care about your problems - he only cares that his bike is repaired correctly and promptly per the terms of his warranty... Sorry, but fair or not, that's reality... :nixweiss:
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Scott and Don; warped minds think alike 8) .
(but it was much more profound in red)
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Scott and Don; warped minds think alike 8) .
(but it was much more profound in red)
Too funny....hadn't seen your response. (Didn't mean to pile on, Captdave221...sorry!)
(But red is better in most circumstances... hehe...)
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I wonder if 3n1 oil will fix it?
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Okay I agree with most of what has been said in this thread but...... as a tech in a Franchised shop how am I supposed to handle these complaints when :
1) HD don't pay for a teardown.
2) I have never seen this rider again and if the bike does get fixed somehow will never see him again.
3) Why isn't his selling dealer taking care of him?
4) With all the expertise on this site and others no one seems to have an answer.
I agree about some techs just came from mickey dee's but I get really pissed off when a cheap a-- customer of ours goes to another dealer to get his PowerCommander there and then comes to me and complains about his 103 cranking and starting hard because the other dealer tech shut off the ACR's because that is what you have to do when you install a PCV on a FBW 103. How stupid are these people. A lot if you want my opinion. Sorry had a bad week with dumb customers
Maybe if 90% of the dealer network didn't reply with the arrogant, condescending and patronizingly scripted answer "IT'S NORMAL" you wouldn't have to ask either one of your four questions.
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Scott and Don; warped minds think alike 8) .
(but it was much more profound in red)
Hey,
I like my mind to be warped, and would not to be able to function correctly, if it wasn't. :D :D :D
Scott
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all the above is true - and mutually counter productive
however - if the techs are paid book rate - and they dont get paid teardown on a rejected warranty claim
and a owner took it somewhere else and its messed up
techs in that type of situation are not very likely to give good service - the tech is trying to feed his family - the customer is just talking with the guy at the front desk. the tech wants to work on something that he might get paid for - i would too. [i do custom machine work on the side, by the hour - talking is the same hourly rate at cutting metal - if the owner helps i charge more - if they try to fix it i charge more to fix the fix - just the way it is]
if we really actually want good techs - they have to get paid 52 weeks a year enough to feed there family - if they are not then no amount of dealer bashing is every going to result in good techs
all a bummer - but true
the other point is true - many many many owners of our favorite brand change all kinds of things on the engine - and then want somebody to fix it for free when it goes to h8&% - its pretty obvious that going forward thats just not going to happen. more and more they are going to tell us to jump in a lake when we bring in a bike with mods thats broken and want it fixed.
to
in fact starting two years ago on new fabricated constructions - i use BA bolts and nuts, if it comes back with different bolts i KNOW it was f'd with - no warranty. i also paint parts AFTER assy - if the paint is off the bolts - no warranty.
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Wish I could get paid for the in-coming phone calls, looking for advice. :D
Scott
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Wish I could get paid for the in-coming phone calls, looking for advice. :D
Scott
You have any?? I'll even ride up and let you listen to mine.....
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My 09 makes a noise between 2200-2800 that sounds like what you are describing.
In a specific speed range like this lightly loaded has all the symptoms of valve train harmonics causing clearance.
What would fix this assuming the piston fit is proper from the MOCO
Appropriate valve spring pressure (beehives) and stiffer pushrods. A decent lifter would seal the deal not solve the problem.
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Okay I agree with most of what has been said in this thread but...... as a tech in a Franchised shop how am I supposed to handle these complaints when :
1) HD don't pay for a teardown.
2) I have never seen this rider again and if the bike does get fixed somehow will never see him again.
3) Why isn't his selling dealer taking care of him?
4) With all the expertise on this site and others no one seems to have an answer.
I agree about some techs just came from mickey dee's but I get really pissed off when a cheap a-- customer of ours goes to another dealer to get his PowerCommander there and then comes to me and complains about his 103 cranking and starting hard because the other dealer tech shut off the ACR's because that is what you have to do when you install a PCV on a FBW 103. How stupid are these people. A lot if you want my opinion. Sorry had a bad week with dumb customers
Captain Dave,
I live in St. Louis, just across the river from Bellville, IL. I just happened to come across this thread today and I am DISGUSTED by your remarks.
At least have the nads to post what dealership you work for so us Dumb Cheap A-- customers can make sure we never spend our money there. Which one? Surdyke? Gateway? St. Charles? Doc's? Bourbeuse? Dale's? Freize? Ted's?
I think you need to rethink what your customers do for you. We might be unknowledgable customers but don't ever refer to us as Cheap A-- or Dumb.
You are the type of tech that we all complain about on this forum and give HD Dealers a bad reputation!
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I have a question for anyone who knows the answer?
What do the lifters have for oil control, a ball bearing or that stupid disc.
Used to build race engines and never used the disc type lifters. Which type
does HD use?