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[Eqcons]

I love my bike. Despite my recent water pump failure (HD: "We're not aware of any problems with the pumps") and CB Module failure.  But since day one, I have hated the clutch, and my recent vacation trip in Europe reminded me of how much I hate it.  I really can't stand it much longer, so either I need to fix it somehow, or the bike has to go.

I've seen others complain about the same problem, but never seen anyone report a fix.  What's wrong?  It's just binary.  Either engaged or not, with a tiny friction zone.  It engages when the lever is almost out, but that I don't mind.  It's the lack of a friction zone that renders it almost dangerous on slow turns and similar; it really destroys your confidence in manoeuvring the bike.  My friend's non-CVO Ultra Limited of the same year (2014) is fine, but mine is a disaster.  I've had a fair few CVOs with hydraulic clutches, and they've all been fine before this one, so apart from the obvious (to save them money) why on earth does the MoCo have to change things when they work perfectly well?!?!!!???

I suspect the same problem continues even on M8 models to this day, as I see AIM have introduced this:

https://aim-tamachi.com/collections/light-force-slave-cylinder

Said to "bring your clutch friction zone closer to the grip, also widening the friction zone for easier clutch modulation"

Unfortunately, that's for '17 on bikes so no solution to my problem.
[edit: just noticed this https://aim-tamachi.com/collections/light-force-slave-cylinder/products/light-force-master-cylinder-kit-for-2014-2016-hydraulic-clutch?variant=29230444609559 but a black m/c is no good to me]

I suspect the slave cylinder is just wrongly sized on the bikes in the first place.

Anyone got any suggestions that don't involve adjustable levers?

Jim

[HOGMIKE]

I had the same issues you mentioned with my 2019 limited.
I ended up with a Muller slave cylinder that solved the problem.
The first part sent was  a 120-50 that would not fit the 2019. They sent a 120-60 that did.
I’m guessing Harley made a change in 2017.
You could find out like I did by getting the 120-50, taking yours off and compare the two.
Instructions are a challenge but take some time to look before you jump in.
Send it back if it won’t fit.

I’m very satisfied with mine, engagement and friction zone all very nice. Lever pull greatly reduced.
Only have about 1500 miles on the new part so far, but I’m loving it! Good luck.
JMHO

[Eqcons]

Thanks Hogmike - looks like it's a similar product to the AIM one, and the 120-50 fits 14 to 16, with the 120-60 for 17-up.

So, bearing in mind what I want is not easier clutch pull, nor am I worried where in the lever movement the clutch engages, but the must have for me is a decently wide friction zone, you think this will do the job for me?

Jim

[fos41]

Hi Jim/Eqcons,

My `15 C.V.O  Street Glide has the same problem, bought it used with 5033 miles; on the demo ride  felt the bike`s clutch having a late engaging point and very narrow friction zone and guess what of course the dealer said "normal H.D. operation in accordance to H.D. specifications and standards".

Eventually convinced a second opinion dealer to replace the clutch assembly and master cylinder  under warranty (with A LOT of coaxing!).

First ride clutch engagement was smooth, in the sweet spot, roughly midway and friction zone was wide and progressive. I am not hard on the clutch, more miles I rode the bike the clutch actuation friction zone was changing for the worse toward the same condition as when I bought the bike.

Now with 15 k miles clutch is better than it was with 5033 miles, but the friction zone has changed engagement becoming later and narrowing. In my mind thinking the clutch has some wear and changed/narrowed the friction zone.

My `05 S.E.E.G had a hydraulic clutch that worked fine with 33 k miles on it when traded. My `15 bike lived with the problem, mainly, because of my work travel job and not  a lot of free time when home.

Have a few theories in mind know clutch operation pretty well from years of working with my MX race bike changing clutch plates and experiment with diff. thicknesses from my experiences generally speaking:Thinner clutch plate stack  (worn, but in spec.) dimensions result in late/narrow engagement. Have some steel plates-different thicknesses that I got from Barnett a while back that I wanted to play with, maybe one of these days.

[HOGMIKE]

Thanks Hogmike - looks like it's a similar product to the AIM one, and the 120-50 fits 14 to 16, with the 120-60 for 17-up.

So, bearing in mind what I want is not easier clutch pull, nor am I worried where in the lever movement the clutch engages, but the must have for me is a decently wide friction zone, you think this will do the job for me?

Jim

Think of it this way:
If the slave piston is larger than the stock one it will take more fluid to move the pushrod the same distance to release the clutch (more volume to fill).
The clutch lever will have to travel more to push enough fluid , thus the engagement requires more travel and is more gradual than stock.
The ratio of size between the master cylinder and slave cylinder determines how much pressure is needed to move the load. Explains the easy pull.
Anyway, this is how it was explained to me and it works.

If you want the same hard pull I guess you can fit a stiffer clutch spring?

 

[Eqcons]

Thanks Fos41,  I'm on 17000 miles on this bike now, and it's never changed, really.  I have changed out the entire clutch for a Rekluse Auto clutch, hoping that would help, but in terms of where it engages, and the narrow friction zone, no change at all.

Jim

[Eqcons]

Think of it this way:
If the slave piston is larger than the stock one it will take more fluid to move the pushrod the same distance to release the clutch (more volume to fill).
The clutch lever will have to travel more to push enough fluid , thus the engagement requires more travel and is more gradual than stock.
The ratio of size between the master cylinder and slave cylinder determines how much pressure is needed to move the load. Explains the easy pull.
Anyway, this is how it was explained to me and it works.

If you want the same hard pull I guess you can fit a stiffer clutch spring?

 

Oh, an easier pull would always be good, but only as a bonus. I just want a wide friction zone.

[HOGMIKE]

Oh, an easier pull would always be good, but only as a bonus. I just want a wide friction zone.

It’s worked wonders for me, BUT mine is a 2019.
I think the muller piston size is the same on the -50 and the -60, but not sure. Machining is a little different from what I saw. Not sure either if Harley changed master cylinder from 14-19
Call to a dealer could verify that I guess.

[Eqcons]

It’s worked wonders for me, BUT mine is a 2019.
I think the muller piston size is the same on the -50 and the -60, but not sure. Machining is a little different from what I saw. Not sure either if Harley changed master cylinder from 14-19
Call to a dealer could verify that I guess.

I think the difference between  the -50 and the -60 may be the thread for the clutch pipe. (Why AIM do the adapter in their kit for 14-16 bikes), hard to be sure. Yes, the 17-up bikes do have a different master cylinder (again, hence AIM having one in their kit for the 14-16 bikes.)

[HOGMIKE]

I think the difference between  the -50 and the -60 may be the thread for the clutch pipe. (Why AIM do the adapter in their kit for 14-16 bikes), hard to be sure. Yes, the 17-up bikes do have a different master cylinder (again, hence AIM having one in their kit for the 14-16 bikes.)

The only difference between the -50 and -60 that I could see is the different machining on the piston, the body’s were the same.
Some parts from my stock piston were used on the -60 piston, the spring and rubber gasket/seal.

[Eqcons]

I may give the Mueller a go - certainly cheaper than the AIM, as it need the master cylinder etc replaced.

[HOGMIKE]

I may give the Mueller a go - certainly cheaper than the AIM, as it need the master cylinder etc replaced.

I used my stock master cylinder. The muller cost me a little more, coming from Germany!
Here are some photos of my stock slave cylinder after I robbed the spring and rubber gasket.

[HOGMIKE]

2

[HOGMIKE]

3

[HOGMIKE]

Last

[HOGMIKE]

Forgot one

[Eqcons]

I used my stock master cylinder. The muller cost me a little more, coming from Germany!
Here are some photos of my stock slave cylinder after I robbed the spring and rubber gasket.

AIM insist that with theirs, you need to change to the '16-up master cylinder, but they only make the one slave cylinder.  Mueller don't need the master cylinder change, but they do make two slave cylinders, of course.

[grc]

IMHO most of the problems with engagement point and friction zone began when Harley switched to their lame "Assist & Slip" clutch.  Recently people have found a new seat for the damper spring from the 2019's that can be installed to move the engagement point closer to the bar instead of out at the end of lever travel, and that alone can help with modulation of the clutch engagement.  It's a cheap fix if it works for you.  The friction zone can also be affected by the primary lubricant you use and the amount of said lubricant.

https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=117734

Jerry

[Eqcons]

Thanks Jerry,  yes, I'd seen that, but it seems to mainly deal with moving the engagement point closer to the bars (a good thing), but it's the lack of friction zone that's the killer for me.

Bike came with Syn3, of course, and since then I've run Redline V-Twin primary, and the newer Formula+, as well as having changed the clutch out itself for a Rekluse automatic clutch. Nothing makes any difference to the friction zone, it really hardly exists.

[grc]

You may find that the engagement control mproves once the engagement point is fixed, others have made that comment.  With engagement occurring all the way out at the end of lever travel, you can experience a more abrupt light switch type engagement due to how your hand works.  If you're like most people with normal sized hands, your hand control of the lever is more precise in the mid range of travel, not with your fingers almost fully extended.  It might be worth a try, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Jerry

[HOGMIKE]

You may find that the engagement control mproves once the engagement point is fixed, others have made that comment.  With engagement occurring all the way out at the end of lever travel, you can experience a more abrupt light switch type engagement due to how your hand works.  If you're like most people with normal sized hands, your hand control of the lever is more precise in the mid range of travel, not with your fingers almost fully extended.  It might be worth a try, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Jerry

You have a point there as the clutch parts have changed over the past few years.
My experience started with clutch packs from 2009, 2010, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2019
These have all been the same model and I never noticed any issues until I got the 2017.
You mentioned “light switch”. I think that describes how mine was working. I prefer a longer lever travel before fully engaged, more controllable for me. Easier to “slip” the clutch.
JMHO of course!
 

[Eqcons]

I've had CVO Hydraulic clutch models from 2005, 2007. 2009 and they were fine. The 2014 is when it all went horribly wrong for me.   I may try the damper spring method though.

[Eqcons]

IMHO most of the problems with engagement point and friction zone began when Harley switched to their lame "Assist & Slip" clutch.  Recently people have found a new seat for the damper spring from the 2019's that can be installed to move the engagement point closer to the bar instead of out at the end of lever travel, and that alone can help with modulation of the clutch engagement.  It's a cheap fix if it works for you.  The friction zone can also be affected by the primary lubricant you use and the amount of said lubricant.

https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=117734

Jerry

OK, I've replaced the damper spring seat with the new part #, and I can say right away that the difference in engagement point is miraculous.  Now much, much closer to the bars.  I'd recommend this from that aspect alone.  I've only ridden 30 miles since I did the job a couple of weeks back, so not enough miles yet to say what the friction zone feels like, but it's a HUGE improvement in the clutch even if the friction zone turns out not to feel any different.  The clutch does feel like there's less pull effort in the lever, but I must be imagining that. Hard to believe that just a few thou of metal thickness can make such a big difference.

As people have been complaining about this since 2014, just like the cruise control and PTT switches being on the wrong side, and the self destructing water pump design, I suppose we should be surprised that it's taken so long to remedy these things, with the clutch taking longest, but then you think "nah, it's HD after all, with the old "Problem? What Problem" attitude." 

The downside, for me, is that I had to go back to the standard clutch pack, losing my Rekluse auto clutch, as it doesn't use the judder spring or seat.