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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: PCSH on August 14, 2013, 08:00:39 AM
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Hi from the UK, I am new to this informative site and this is my first posting!
I am the proud and joyous owner of a 2011 model Roadglide Ultra registered in 2012. To my abject horror :o, after only 6.5k miles, the bike is in my local dealership with a lifter 'tappet' noise, which I have read is well documented here and by no means uncommon amongst CVO owners. The dealership have endorsed there is excessive noise and wear to the lifter bores. After a strip down and photos sent to Milwaukee Technical, they have responded with a request for the dealership to measure the lifter bores in the crankcase to ascertain if it is 'excessive' wear or 'fair wear and tear' within given tolerances. Surely a 110 engine should last more than 6.5k miles!!!
MY QUESTION IS "DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE HD PUBLISHED TOLERANCES ARE FOR THE LIFTER BORES THROUGH THE CRANKCASE"??
Having recognised and caught the issue early, I am really concerned that they will come back and say it is 'fair wear and tear' and try to side-step the issue. I don't want to go through all this again when the noise gets worse and the warranty has expired. I would like to be able to discuss this issue from an informed point of view. Your help will be hugely appreciated!!
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Not being much of a wrench I sometimes amaze myself with my lack of understanding. So while I think this is correct don't take it to the bank without verification.
I don't find a spec for the lifter bore itself but there is a service wear limit given for the lifers. So I would think that if new lifters in the bore exceeded the wear limit then the bore itself would be suspect.
Service manual says to replace hydraulic lifters if the fit in crankcase exceeds 0.003 inches or 0.08 millimeters.
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I also couldn't find an actual bore size and tolerance in the manuals, but the manufacturing spec for the fit of the lifter to the bore is .0008-.0020", and the wear limit is .003" as ultrafxr mentioned.
What makes the dealership think it's the fit of the lifter to the bore, as opposed to just the lifter itself? Did they actually measure the bore and the lifter to determine the clearance? As for "normal" wear and tear, don't let them pull that crap on you. If the bore is outside the specs at only 6500 miles, it is an obvious manufacturing problem, not normal wear.
Jerry
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Not being much of a wrench I sometimes amaze myself with my lack of understanding. So while I think this is correct don't take it to the bank without verification.
I don't find a spec for the lifter bore itself but there is a service wear limit given for the lifers. So I would think that if new lifters in the bore exceeded the wear limit then the bore itself would be suspect.
Service manual says to replace hydraulic lifters if the fit in crankcase exceeds 0.003 inches or 0.08 millimeters.
That instruction would be making the assumption the wear was strictly the lifter - rather than the lifter bore or a combination of the two surfaces...
To the OP, regardless of the diagnosis of the dealer and MOCO, my suggestion is to replace the lifters with new...
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Not new H-D ones but either gatorman 1023, black ops, or woods lifters. In that order. Can't remember if your bike will have the -99c lifters but they suck. I doubt the lifter bores are done for, my guess is that the lifters are chattery. But if the lifter bores are bad(doubt it) I know of some machinists that bore the holes and put steel sleeves in and never have a possible issue again.
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Thanks for your responses guys. I too found figures of .0008-.0020" fit for the lifters in the bore but I thought a 'wear' tolerance of .0012" would make any bike noisey!! A figure of .0003" is a bit more sensible.
GRC - the dealership took photos of wear marks in the lifter bore and I guess have assumed it's the bore and not the lifters, but thinking it through both would need to be measured to ascertain if it's one or the other or both. The dealership can't measure the bores yet as they don't have the necessary tools, but are trying to source them from another dealership in the UK or purchase them new. Whatever happens I guess I can kiss goodbye to the rest of the UK riding season as I don't really 'do' rain ;D!! As this seems to be an inherent problem with 110s, our dealership have a potential tsunami heading their way as they have sold a lot of 110s and CVOs!!
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If you have visable wear marks in the bores something caused that. Damaged / self destructing lifters I would think. Sounds like you are due for a new motor if still under moco warranty or if on esp then a factory reman (which will be a new motor also). Good luck and we will watch with interest how this develops.
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Hi Guys, finally had my bike returned after 8 weeks in the Dealership workshop. Whilst glad to get it back I'm far from happy with the conclusion. A new set of SE lifters and 'perfect-fit' pushrods were fitted plus lifter and bore tolerances measured. MoCo state the tolerences are .009" to .026" and mine was .021", so MoCo have said 'problem solved, no new engine (as preferred option by Dealer), any further issues will be dealt with on a 'case by case' basis and case closed. I THINK THAT SUCKS!!! No-one has been able to tell me exactly what the problem was!!
Took the bike to a mate who works on HDs and knows them inside out (self-employed mechanic who did 20 years in a dealership workshop) and without me saying anything, he, like me, thinks it is noisier now than when it went in. Was talking to a guy in the parts department of a Florida dealership and he told me they had a whole bunch of CVOs go back in with the same noise problem, so they called out the MoCo. Transpires the problem was with the Primary Compensator which was showing fairly substantial wear in most cases.
Reading the problems in the forum regarding Compensator issues, I'm now at the stage where I feel I'm being taken for a simpleton by the MoCo, which really p****s me off and I don't feel inclined to continue ownership of an engine that quite clearly can't cope with what is being asked of it, which is a real shame because the rest of the bike is phenomenal and looks stunning. >:(
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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what's being written here. Are you saying that Mother Harley is telling you that up to .026" clearance in a lifter bore is acceptable? Not .0026" but .026" and, if so, did you ask for a citation or other documentation for this supposed factory spec? Every time you think you've heard the last and what must be the worst example of such nonsense from the MoCo something else happens to surprise yet again.
Just for comparison the Dart aluminum blocks are not an uncommon piece to work with in the automotive world. Also aluminum so a comfortable comparison. I work with these relatively regularly. GM's blue print spec for bore size is .8438 to .8443 if memory serves me correctly. But Dart is notorious for having the lifter bores sizes a bit snug (not a bad thing, not complaining). Lifter manufacturers can vary a bit but common diameter is .842-.8425". The goal when setting these up is after measuring lifters to hone for a clearance .0015-.0018. That's my personal working range. I know some guys that quite happily go to .003 even with the expansion rate of an aluminum block.
No matter any variation there the notion that .026" is deemed acceptable is frightening. If that's really what they said it's just another reason I'd never again buy another of their damned motorcycles. If accurate it's crap out the door.
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Hi Guys, finally had my bike returned after 8 weeks in the Dealership workshop. Whilst glad to get it back I'm far from happy with the conclusion. A new set of SE lifters and 'perfect-fit' pushrods were fitted plus lifter and bore tolerances measured. MoCo state the tolerences are .009" to .026" and mine was .021", so MoCo have said 'problem solved, no new engine (as preferred option by Dealer), any further issues will be dealt with on a 'case by case' basis and case closed. I THINK THAT SUCKS!!! No-one has been able to tell me exactly what the problem was!!
Took the bike to a mate who works on HDs and knows them inside out (self-employed mechanic who did 20 years in a dealership workshop) and without me saying anything, he, like me, thinks it is noisier now than when it went in. Was talking to a guy in the parts department of a Florida dealership and he told me they had a whole bunch of CVOs go back in with the same noise problem, so they called out the MoCo. Transpires the problem was with the Primary Compensator which was showing fairly substantial wear in most cases.
Reading the problems in the forum regarding Compensator issues, I'm now at the stage where I feel I'm being taken for a simpleton by the MoCo, which really p****s me off and I don't feel inclined to continue ownership of an engine that quite clearly can't cope with what is being asked of it, which is a real shame because the rest of the bike is phenomenal and looks stunning. >:(
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you left a zero out of the tolerances and measurement you stated.
"MoCo state the tolerences are .009 .0009" to .026" .0026 and mine was .021 .0021."
No matter, though. You hit the nail on the head with your assessment of "I feel I'm being taken for a simpleton by the MoCo". Many dealership techs and service managers count on the customer not being knowledgeable enough to smell out their B.S. The problem is many of the dealership service employees are simpleton's themselves, and spew B.S. because they are the ones lacking in knowledge and experience, and most have absolutely no troubleshooting skills...
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you left a zero out of the tolerances and measurement you stated.
"MoCo state the tolerences are .009 .0009" to .026" .0026 and mine was .021 .0021."
No matter, though. You hit the nail on the head with your assessment of "I feel I'm being taken for a simpleton by the MoCo". Many dealership techs and service managers count on the customer not being knowledgeable enough to smell out their B.S. The problem is many of the dealership service employees are simpleton's themselves, and spew B.S. because they are the ones lacking in knowledge and experience, and most have absolutely no troubleshooting skills...
That was my thought too Scott. First thought was a simple typo or misheard spec as it had to be .0026". Just had to be.
But.... this is the MoCo. The same people that said the end of a crankshaft can wobble like the tassles hanging off a French Quarter strippers nipples. So I don't know that it can be immediately discounted they'd just make more chit up to try to pacify a customer and get him out of the way. That the spec is a recipe for disaster doesn't mean they wouldn't try it. I don't believe it's documented. I don't believe it's even correct. But I don't disbelieve they would try to sell it to get a customer out of the way long enough to get them beyond warranty responsibility.
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It's just unbelievable some the spew that comes out of dealer employees. I was picking up my bike after a comp assembly replacement. The mechanic that did the work came out towered over me and started talking down to me like I don't ride much or don't know much. He stated by the way your suspension sucks. I looked up at him and said your a dumbazz for riding my bike without air in my legend suspension. And if there is any damage i'm holding you responsible. And that wasn't the end of it. They don't call me Rooster for nothing. Needless to say I haven't let them touch my bike again. :soapbox:
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I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you left a zero out of the tolerances and measurement you stated.
"MoCo state the tolerences are .009 .0009" to .026" .0026 and mine was .021 .0021."
No matter, though. You hit the nail on the head with your assessment of "I feel I'm being taken for a simpleton by the MoCo". Many dealership techs and service managers count on the customer not being knowledgeable enough to smell out their B.S. The problem is many of the dealership service employees are simpleton's themselves, and spew B.S. because they are the ones lacking in knowledge and experience, and most have absolutely no troubleshooting skills...
I think you're the one who hit the nail on the head Scott. He did leave out a zero btw, but you are dead on about the typical Harley service department and so-called techs. Bluffing and BS are a cheap substitute for real knowledge and experience, which seem to be getting more and more rare at most shops I've been in over recent years. As for those framed diploma's from MMI or Harley, those plus $5 will get you a cup of overpriced coffee flavored crap at Starbucks but they don't necessarily signify any real talent or qualifications. And diagnostics is a word the average place doesn't recognize as part of the language, much less part of their business practices. Part changers have outnumbered real mechanics for many years now, and it's only getting worse as the old experienced guys leave the business. Even with the software diagnostic routines manufacturer's supply to make troubleshooting easier, many "techs" still can't find their azz with either hand and prefer to either BS their way out of trying, or just change a part and hope it accidently fixes the problem or the customer just gives up.
Jerry
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Sorry to give you guys a sharp intake of breath for leaving out a zero!! Everything else is correct and if HD think I'm going away they have another think coming!! I still have another 10 months of warranty, but maybe the next step might be a wake-up shot in the form of an attorney's letter!!
HD's marketing, pricing and presentation strategies put them in the upper quartile of motor manufacturers, but seem unable or unwilling to close the product circle by providing technical support and after-sales service. That in my book makes them a bandit and if you know a little about English history, even Dick Turpin (famous highwayman) had the decency to wear a mask when he was robbing people!!!
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Well all said and done I think you have the best solution they could offer. The clearance is what was stated by Scott I am sure or the motor would rattle like a SOB. Dealers do not perform warranty work with aftermarket parts unless they are dipping in their own pocket. There are better lifters than the SE part. That said the SE lifter 18572-13 is still rather new. I would agree with the comments about dealer techs and you could lump the service writers into that bucket generally speaking, there are exceptions. Until there is a management drive from the top to raise the quality of this support network the problems will remain. Why in the heck would a young man or woman aspire to work on a HD as a tech when the bikes are highly complex, new model features case and point, and the pay is $10-14/hr. Hell I was making $28/ flat rate hr in 1974 doing heavy line on Mercedes cars. We had rigorous training and were held to very high standards. This was customer driven. The HD customers need to be vigilant and maybe there will be change. We, the customers, do keep going back to the trough so only way too get HD to change is with our buying habits. Many times we hear reference to the AMF days. Well the company was hurting and rightfully so. Today they are not hurting.
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If we are talking a better lifter I am surprised nobody has looked into a .750 roller wheel. Would help a lot of the issues.
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So the lifter bore to lifter tolerance is within the factory spec, they fitted new lifters and perfect fit rods, perhaps the rods are not such a perfect fit? Are you certain the noise is coming from the lifters?
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So the lifter bore to lifter tolerance is within the factory spec, they fitted new lifters and perfect fit rods, perhaps the rods are not such a perfect fit? Are you certain the noise is coming from the lifters?
The "rods" he is referring to are perfect fit pushrods, not connecting rods. Point well taken, though. :2vrolijk_21:
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The "rods" he is referring to are perfect fit pushrods, not connecting rods. Point well taken, though. :2vrolijk_21:
Sorry mate, pushrods is what I ment, I forget to be clear sometimes, the way I see it unless you measure each lifter to rocker gap individually and have the pushrod made to suit that distance + your preload it is not going to be exact, this is one of the reasons I use adjustable pushrods.
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Sorry mate, pushrods is what I ment, I forget to be clear sometimes, the way I see it unless you measure each lifter to rocker gap individually and have the pushrod made to suit that distance + your preload it is not going to be exact, this is one of the reasons I use adjustable pushrods.
No worries! I am the one who mistakenly thought you were referring to connecting rods, when you were, in fact, referring to pushrods... :2vrolijk_21:
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All good brother :2vrolijk_21: