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CVO Technical => EVO => Topic started by: Ohio HD on November 03, 2013, 05:09:56 PM
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Need some help from our engine builders, or someone who has experience with the Powerhouse 114 motors. We have a top end from a 114 inch Powerhouse. The owner wants to have the cylinders sleeved, as they're worn, and already at +0.030". He has acquired a set of NOS STD. size pistons for this motor, and wants the cylinders repaired, as they can't be bought new anymore.
The thing that I need help with, is the crankshaft. These motors use offset rods, and the cylinders are in line, the pistons and rods small end have a built in offset to accommodate the cranks offset rods, in a standard Harley style case. The problem I see is that his old pistons are cracked in an area that shouldn't "normally" see stress. And I think it's due to the side loading of the pistons with the offset piston / rod combo.
If you look at the inside of the rear cylinder, you see there are three distinct wear patterns at 120 degrees apart, front is the same. What we were able to find out was that these pistons were made by Keith Black, and the have a three point cam ground shape, rather than a standard two point cam grind that pistons see. I think this was to "try" and stabilize the pistons with the offset rods. Just a guess though.
OK, back to the crank. I believe he's going to see the same problem again due to the motors design. What I wanted to find out is, can a Harley EVO crank fit in these motors, if you had the proper length rods made? Of course I'm not presuming that an Evo crank drops right in, but rather what's critical to know is if the left and right side bearings, Timken and pinion side rollers, are the same span side to side as a stock Evo. If they are, an Evo crank can be made to work with a 4.000" stroke, and the weight / balance taken care of.
Or has anyone known to have had the crank rebuilt to HD style male and female rods? Or a custom crank / rods made. We want to be able to give the owner some info to help him end up with a motor that will last. This is twice in not all that many miles that he's had the pistons fail. All the pics below are what we have, the crank pic is from the link shown, as we don't have the crank here.
Thanks
Brian
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rear cyl front thrust side
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rear cyl rear thrust side
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rear cyl & new liner
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old rear piston, note cracked skirt
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old front piston, note cracked skirt
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note built in offset for side by side rods
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side view of rods
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face view of rods
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new rear piston
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http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/0208hrb_powerhouse_motor/
powerhouse 114 crank
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Midwest made these motors. The Marlborough Man bike had one of these motors. Midwest now makes
Ultima
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Hi, Close, it was Mid Usa that sold these. The design came from Vern Ott, and from what I've learned, the cases were Delkron, crank by Falicon, rods are Carrillo, cams Crane, lifters were Vern's Velva Touch lifters, oil pump was Vern's, pistons Keith Black, that's about all that I've been able to confirm.
I just hate to see this put back together without addressing the inherent issues.
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High-flyin' rpm engines if I recall.
They never really seemed to catch on with folks, not saying anything wrong.
A lot of R&D went into these, again, as I remember.
Scott
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I don't have any experience with these Scott, was kinda hopping that you did... ;D
I suspect that the cost, and from what I know from this owner, there are issues with piston life. Original build both pistons cracked, from what he remembered, pretty much the same place as these did. I see two possible solutions to help longevity, one change the crank to an inline HD style, this may help the side loading that appears to be happening to the pistons. Have custom CP pistons made, as these KB pistons are broken right where a very thin section of the piston meets the pin boss. To me best case scenario is change crank to HD style, new custom CP pistons that are cam ground only on the front and rear.
The other concern I have is what effect changing from a babbitt style bearing, to rollers might have on oil pressure. I read where this oil pump was designed to hold around 40 PSI at idle, of course that style bearing needs the pressure.
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Your ideas sound like viable solutions to those issues, that I was unaware existed, and as far as the existing pump for those insert bearings, I'd believe it would flood the crankcase if a caged roller assembly was introduced.....could be wrong, but I'm thinking not.
Scott
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vern had problems with the pistons breaking,even before mid west had anything to do with them.a regular evo lower end might fit,but not with the offset cylinders as the rods will hit the counterbalance part of the wheels (heavy part 180* from c. pin).I would just have the cylinders sleeved and get CP pistons.im doing a side by side,automotive type motor for my nitro bike now,so ive ran into just about all the probs you can
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Your ideas sound like viable solutions to those issues, that I was unaware existed, and as far as the existing pump for those insert bearings, I'd believe it would flood the crankcase if a caged roller assembly was introduced.....could be wrong, but I'm thinking not.
Scott
I really didn't think of the flooding of the sump, just that the pressure may drop from the bearing change. I bet you're right, unless the return side of the pump can really pick up the slack, that motor may sump. :bigcry:
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vern had problems with the pistons breaking,even before mid west had anything to do with them.a regular evo lower end might fit,but not with the offset cylinders as the rods will hit the counterbalance part of the wheels (heavy part 180* from c. pin).I would just have the cylinders sleeved and get CP pistons.im doing a side by side,automotive type motor for my nitro bike now,so ive ran into just about all the probs you can
That's the whole kicker Kirby, the cylinders aren't offset, they're in line. With the offset rods and in line cylinders, well you know.....
That's what I'm starting to think is have some custom pistons made that "will" hold up. Man they'll be expensive, I doubt that CP has an specific blank to make these from.
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Here is the data I've been able to unearth. They claim compression ration of 9.5:1. My estimates based on guessing the piston height and valve reliefs is 9.94:1. So they may be correct at 9.5:1. But I think their claim of 134 HP and 130 torque are quite optimistic.
I've asked John at Darkhorse to see if he will be interested in converting the crank to HD style H beam rods. We're also considering new custom pistons, and possibly machining the area that breaks off his new OEM pistons. The pics below shows where they break. Then the inside of the piston you see it follows that casting ledge. Machine that area away, well it can't break if it's not there.
Data I Recovered
The POWER HOUSE 114 will produce approximately 134 horsepower and 130 foot pounds of torque. Not only will this tear up the pavement in a lightweight motorcycle, it will provide excellent results on long distance touring machines. Fits all Big Twin frames designed for an Evolution style engine. Each engine is shipped in a specially constructed polyethylene shipping container (deposit required). Includes Manufacturer’s Statement of Origin.
Specifications
Displacement ..................... 114ci (1868cc)
Bore Size ........................ 4.255”
Stroke Length .....................4.000”
Rod Length ....................... 7.750”
Rod, Journal End I.D ............. 2.000”
Rod, Wrist Pin End I.D ........... 0.927”
Compression Ratio ................ 9.5:1
Combustion Chamber Size .......... 90cc
Intake Valve, Head Diameter ...... 2.050”
Exhaust Valve, Head Diameter ..... 1.750”
Intake Flow@28” Water ............ 280 CFM
Exhaust Flow@28” Water ........... 240 CFM
Intake, Valve Lift ............... 0.656”
Exhaust Valve Lift ............... 0.618”
Intake, Rocker Arm Ratio ......... 1.725:1
Exhaust, Rocker Arm Ratio ........ 1.625:1
The Powerhouse motor's parts come from some of the biggest names in the
V-Twin performance business:
Delkron
JIMS Machining - rocker arms
Falicon Crankshaft Components
Carrillo Industries
KB Performance
Comp Cams
Crane Cams
L.A. Sleeve
Velva-Touch
Hegedus Aluminum Industries
Gardner-Wescott.
Special Features
Crankshaft assembly by Falicon.
Crankshaft halves are made from E4340H forgings that have been hardened & tempered, and feature integrated sprocket & pinion shafts.
Bottom mounted engine case inspection plate.
Constant pressure, high return rate oil pump made from 7075-T6 billet aluminum.
2” O.D. crankshaft journal is made from 4041 billet then hardened, tempered, hard chrome plated and ground to + - .0001”. It is then welded in place to prevent movement.
Forged H beam style connecting rods by Carrillo with Babbitt type big end bearings.
Exclusive 3-poing contact cast pistons by KB Performance Pistons.
Roller tip rocker arms by Jims.
Engine cases cast from 356-T6 aluminum by Delkron.
Cam/Gear cover machined from 6061-T651 billet aluminum by Delkron.
Tru-Bore cast from iron valve guides by Rowe.
Ultra-Touch Quickset Pushrods. Made from lightweight 4130 Chrome-moly steel and machine tapered for maximum strength. Patent
Pending.
Cast iron tappet blocks with high-rev hydraulic lifters by Velva Touch”,
Cylinders are cast around the sleeves for a no slip fit. Cylinder sleeves by L.A. Sleeve.
Steel breather gear by S&S.
Power flex piston rings by Hastings.
Tru-Forged, severe performance, stainless steel, 1 piece, high flow valves with hard chrome stems and 4140 Chrome-moly tip.
High flow cylinder heads made from 6061-T6 billet aluminum.
Bolted-in type main bearing case inserts for dependability.
Manual operated compression release valves for improved hot engine restart.
Engine case mounted lubricating/cooling oiler jets that spray the underside of the pistons.
Two piece rocker arm covers designed for easy access, made from 6061-T6
billet aluminum.
Chrome-silicone double damper valve springs for reduced spring harmonics.
Top valve spring collars machined from titanium for high strength and light weight.
Valve seals made from fluro-viton for reduced oil consumption and exact valve stem lubrication.
O ring type seals at the cylinder base and head for maximum sealing power.
Dual spark plug heads for reduced emissions and a more complete fuel
burn rate.
Overall height of engine is the same as an OE Evolution and will easily fit into an Evolution style frame.
Includes electronic advance ignition that is switchable for your choice of single fire or dual fire.
All chemicals and sealants used in the assembly process are provided by Valco Cincinnati Consumer Products, Inc.
12 month/12,000 mile warranty.
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inside of broken piston
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Those pistons seem to be not forgiving from what we've seen in other applications.
Scott
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Those pistons seem to be not forgiving from what we've seen in other applications.
Scott
You're probably right about that. Just was a moment of wishful thinking. Guess we'll find out how serious he is about this motor when we start adding things up!
I think it could be a hot rod with an Evo crank, and custom pistons. Needs more compression though, maybe cam change too.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yes indeed.
A 114" in most any configuration can be quite powerful.
We built a 5" stroke, 3 13/16" bore Evo, with ported S&S head castings, Wood 9F, S&S D carb, etc, for a local client a few years back.
Insta-power in any gear at almost any rpm.
Scott