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Author Topic: WV HELMET LAW REFORM  (Read 14325 times)

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Screamin

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2005, 06:36:01 PM »

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Twolanerider

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2005, 09:01:03 PM »

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RedFXR2

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2005, 09:13:03 PM »

There's an interesting article on this subject in the Orlando (Florida) Sentinel.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orl-asecdeadlyhelmet03030305mar03,1,909561.story?ctrack=2&cset=true

There's a lot of data in it--it's about the difference in injury rates from when Florida required helmets versus now that the state doesn't.  One quote I wanted to bring here is about the costs of hospitalization:

"A 2002 survey of three trauma-center hospitals in Florida found average medical costs ranged from $32,426 to $44,053 for riders who suffered head injuries while not wearing helmets, and $28,602 to $31,437 for those who wore helmets."

These costs are what the insurance industry uses to calculate premium rates for all riders--helmet or not.  I maintain that the whole motorcycle world pays for the consequences of those choosing to ride helmetless--those that wear helmets did not make that choice.  It was made for them by those that don't wear helmets.  And this doesn't include taxpayer supported resources like county ambulance services with EMT's and such.

I've never seen anyone who wants to go helmetless also volunteer to pay their own way through serious injury so as to not impose their individual cost of risk onto others.  This is why I favor allowing the insurance companies to escape liability if a rider took out a policy agreeing to war a helmet, then was injured while not wearing one.

Motorcycling carries a set of increased risks.  Me, I think it's my responsibility to decide how much risk I'm willing to accept--and then to be responsible for those risks.  I'm going to do what I can to minimize the risks, to myself and others, and still enjoy riding.

Frankly, the whole helmet, no-helmet thing has always been a puzzle to me.  I don't feel imposed upon in the least by wearing a helmet.  Any more than a leather jacket or gloves, or boots.  It's just something that makes good sense if you're going to ride.  I said before, I think they come in handy in keeping flying objects off my head, face and eyes, never mind crash protection.  I've had things bounce off of them and been really glad I had it on.

Not trying to pi$$ anybody off.  Just my opinion.
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Dr. Evil

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2005, 09:22:22 PM »

It may indeed (AND DOES) make good sense... even though I don't... but it should be YOUR choice.  Not some senator who doesn't ride...     [smiley=beerchug.gif]
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Twolanerider

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2005, 09:30:12 PM »

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These costs are what the insurance industry uses to calculate premium rates for all riders--helmet or not.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 09:31:23 PM by twolanerider »
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Dr. Evil

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2005, 09:37:27 PM »

me too...... Funny... [smiley=1syellow1.gif]
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MObe

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2005, 03:17:42 PM »

"The last time I checked NHTSA numbers the highest frequency of what was categorized "severe" injury per miles driven on public roads was us on our bikes. "

Twolane; you are talking about injuries per mile driven, I was talking about TOTAL NUMBER of head injuries, regardless of miles driven. I don't think you will disagree that there are a lot more compact pickup trucks that travel a lot more miles per unit than motorcycles of all types.

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Twolanerider

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2005, 06:01:04 PM »

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Sure, agreed Mike.  But that doesn't speak to issue.  In fact it speaks against it.  For purposes of illustration only:

Assume a million people drove small trucks and a thousand people rode motorcycles.  One would expect to see significantly more accidents and injuries with small trucks.  That has nothing to do, however, with the inherent safety of each mode of transportation or whether any given driver is choosing a safer mode of transport and, thereby, not heightening the risk of his own injury and costs attendant thereto.  It just says that there is a whole lot more trucks than bikes.

Consider the Air France Concorde that went down after take off from Paris a couple of years ago.  That airframe was, statistically per passenger mile or cycles, the safest commercial transport air frame in the air up until that incident.  After that one accident it was the worst.  

Why such a huge difference from one accident?  Compared to the Boeing and Airbus fleets out there the British Airways and Air France Concorde's flew an almost insignificant amount of passenger miles and cycles with only something like 12-14 airframes in the fleet.  So its comparison within the statistical framework used (for comparison) was both irrelevant and misleading.  People flew the Concorde being told it was "safe" when what they should have been being told was that it hadn't yet crashed.  Those aren't the same thing.

So we can't just say that there are more injuries in trucks (or more crashes in the Boeing 747).  A given truck could be the single "safest" vehicle on the road and the driving population could be exercising the greatest amount of personal and civic responsiblity (in termes of injury protection) by driving it.  But the truck would still have a lot more total injuries just because there were hundreds of thousands or millions of it on the road versus a hugely smaller amount of motorcycles.
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MObe

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2005, 06:31:22 PM »

Twolane:
That was my point exactly.
Total cost to society due to head injuries is greater from injuries to drivers of compact pickup trucks, not because they are less safe than motorcycles, but because there are so many of them, thus the higher total number of head injuries in these vehicles. There are a greater total number of automobiles on the road, but there are less total head injuries in automobiles than in compact pickup trucks.
 Head injuries per mile driven is greatest to motorcyclists, followed by compact pickup occupents, followed by occupents of automobiles.
 But there just aren't that many motorcycle riders and passengers relatively speaking in comparison to the number of compact pickup or automobile occupents.
 If head injuries place a certain amount of financial burden on society, then the most effective way to decrease that burden is to stop them in the vehicle type that causes the greatest total number of head injuries, which would be compact pickup trucks.
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Dr. Evil

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2005, 09:30:25 PM »

MFG, we know a few of those...  [smiley=confused5.gif]
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ccr

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2005, 09:44:35 PM »

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MFG, we know a few of those...
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hd2003-se2005

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2005, 09:53:01 PM »

Mrs. WeCVO

Your a silly girl!

Bet that's why the Mr. loves you! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Twolanerider

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2005, 10:27:36 PM »

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I can't believe you guys are arguing


Whose arguing MFG.  It's a conversation.  With grownups there's a difference.  Hell, even with us there's a difference  [smiley=laugh.gif]
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Twolanerider

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2005, 10:39:21 PM »

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Twolane:
That was my point exactly.
 Total cost


Ohhh, ok.  Now I'm clueing in to the differences of perspective that were feeding the different sides of this conversation.  You really are speaking to total costs, writ large, and how they might (hypothetically) be addressed (especially when the fact that they won't be addressed writ large becomes a "fairness" argument against imposing universal manadatory helmet laws  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] ).

On the other side I was using the large examples only to illustrate the notion of the societal responsibilites we might incur as riders choosing not to wear hats when wearing might make us in some way more generally responsible (not just to ourself but to others).  I was thinking of the whole discussion still within the confines of illustration to the helmet question but not in using the larger examples to justify in either way, just to illustrate.  That's a big difference in defining the conversation.

Coming at it from the other way it makes perfect sense (in what becomes a counter productive way).  If a given vehicle racks up a bazillion more road miles and is a safer vehicle it will still have more accidents just because it gets a bazillion more miles.  Therefore, (while not on any representative scale but in total nonetheless) you decrease costs by making the members of that statistical cohort do something safer (wear helmets while driving their mid size trucks).

Of course those drivers then switch to something else without the requirement and the class moves.  Eventually everyone (including kids in shopping carts) have to wear helmets just because Mobe pointed out that everyone drives trucks !!  

Geez, thanks Mobe !!!!
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mfgreen

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Re: WV HELMET LAW REFORM
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2005, 10:43:01 PM »

In some communities kids are required to wear helmets while bicycle riding.......
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