Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 [All]

Author Topic: INA Bearings  (Read 4720 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Z10

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 166

    • CVO1: 2006 FLHTCUSE Autumn Haze
INA Bearings
« on: February 23, 2012, 06:46:50 PM »

This weekend while swapping out the INA inner cam bearings with Timkens I recall the inferior INA bearing a problem on the Evos.  My question: Why is HD still using them? Is INA a subsidiary of HD or something? I don't get it.  :nixweiss:
Logged

Doc 1

  • Doc 1
  • Vendor
  • Elite CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 613
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 07:00:36 PM »

The INA bearing did have it's faults in the EVO day and even early Twin Cam days, however the INA bearing is made MUCH better today and with stock valve springs there is really no reason to upgrade to the Torrington.
Doc
Logged
Doc's Performance Tuning

www.docsperformancetuning.com

Z10

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 166

    • CVO1: 2006 FLHTCUSE Autumn Haze
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 07:13:31 PM »

Interesting. By bad...your right. Torrington was the name of the preferred bearing when I got my first Evo. So the bearing on the right is made by Torrington not Timken? When I was calling around for parts a few weeks back, everyone I talked to put the bearing pictured on the right with their cam plate conversion kits. I don't believe any of them mentioned INA. I referenced Timken because that was the manufacturers name they used.

Jim
Logged

CVO2FIXUP

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1707
  • Canada Eh!!!
    • ON


    • CVO1: 2010 CVO Ultra Classic Riptide Blue.
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 07:18:22 PM »

The INA bearing did have it's faults in the EVO day and even early Twin Cam days, however the INA bearing is made MUCH better today and with stock valve springs there is really no reason to upgrade to the Torrington.
Doc

  How do stock valve springs vs not stock ( I assume stiffer )  influence the cam bearings?
Logged
I may be a head of cabbage, but I am ahead of you!!

glens

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 352
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 08:09:02 PM »

The valve springs are what the cams, thus the cam bearings, are pushing against.
Logged

Razorback

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 08:32:18 PM »

Cheap insurance at any rate, would NEVER consider servicing a camchest for any reason without upgrading the bearings.
Logged

Doc 1

  • Doc 1
  • Vendor
  • Elite CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 613
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 09:07:43 PM »

Cheap insurance at any rate, would NEVER consider servicing a camchest for any reason without upgrading the bearings.

What ever makes you sleep better is what you got to do....
Logged
Doc's Performance Tuning

www.docsperformancetuning.com

glens

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 352
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 09:37:54 PM »



I can see where the bearing on the left would have a better chance of spitting parts out if things got wanky, but until that point it appears as though the oil would circulate through it a bit more copiously.
Logged

timo482

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 860
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 10:19:34 PM »

in the picture the bearing on the left is a caged roller - it will tolerate angularity - but if the cage goes bad it can drop rollers right out. the bearing on the right is a full needle bearing the needles stay in alignment just by being packed in - they wont tolerate any angularity, if the shaft is not straight they will wear and lock up. in this case i suspect the issue is load - the needle can tolerate more load by having more rollers - but the load per roller is slightly less because they dont have a cage - my old mcgill book says the needle is about 1.5 times more capacity at the expense of less tolerance for alignment.

most transmission bearings are needle and as long as the case stays straight they are good for a very long time. in the early 90's ford pickup transmissions would crap out - it turned out that the 7.3 engine would twist the case under a heavy load - that blew the bearings right out and quick - once they fixed the case the transmission problems mostly ended.

somebody in engineering wants a caged roller in there - i just wonder what the reason is - in the bearing book caged rollers cost more. [but its a old book i admit]
Logged

mjb765

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6769

    • CVO1: 2011 FLHXSE--sold
    • CVO2: 2015 FLHXSE--sold
    • CVO3: 2018 FLTRXSE
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 06:54:14 AM »

All the opinions I got agreed that the bearing on the right was the better bearing since it was all bearing and no cage between them...so I upgraded when when my cams were done also......
Logged

glens

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 352
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 03:48:45 PM »

What I'd meant to suggest earlier was that if they are solely splash lubricated, the one on the left will be able to gulp more oil.  If they're not splashed and/or if you have a high load on the cam, and the outer bearing maintains sufficient alignment in the assembly, then sure, the one on the right would be the better choice.
Logged

North Georgia Hawg

  • HoneyBadger Don't Give a CHIT...
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3345
  • I HATE WINTER!!!

    • CVO1: 2012 FLHXSE3 Hot Citrus/Antique Gunstock
    • CVO2: 2009 Chevy Avalanche LTZ Inferno Orange
    • CVO3: 2001 Ebbtide Mystique 2300: 8-ch 2000 watt audio system, two 12" Kicker subs
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 05:28:22 PM »

I'm certainly no engine builder, but when the 54H cams were put in my bike at all of 500 miles on the engine, one of the stock INA cam bearings FELL APART on removal. Just sayin'...
Logged

HoneyBadger Don't Care...

TD AK-20s | Drago's S/C/S-4 | SE 259Es | Feuling 8015/7060/Rods | Black Ops Lifters
Cometics | Big Sucker 2 | Energy One +1 Clutch Pack | Hayden BT07 | ClutchWIZ
WPW Fans | TL P7 LEDs/Aux | Dynamic Ringz | Tour Pak | WO 575s | RT 665
Corbin DualTour | BAH Flush Front Axle | Chrome Calipers
The Wizard's Tune

Ed Ramberger - One_Screamin_Eagle

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 306

    • CVO1: 2000 FLTRSEI
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2012, 10:43:43 PM »

 How do stock valve springs vs not stock ( I assume stiffer )  influence the cam bearings?

Couple of points:
1)  The valve springs are pushing back on the cam and the cam bearing(s) has/have to handle the  load.  In EVO days, 4 valve springs were pushing on one cam supported by one bearing (in the case) and one bushing (in the nose cone).  

With TC88, 2 springs are pushing on one cam supported by 2 bearings (one in case and one in support plate)  These are also larger than the EVO bearing.

2) INA caged bearings (every other roller "missing") tolerate misalignment better than full compliment Torrington bearings.
Torrington bearings support more load but don't handle misalignment and create more heat.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 10:45:22 PM by Ed Ramberger - One_Screamin_Eagle »
Logged
FLTRSEI -Delphi Conversion, 103", 251 cams, Heavy Breather & a couple other little tweaks

HILLSIDECYCLE.COM

  • Banned
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2085
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 06:27:52 AM »

Of course internet hysteria, creates a full-frenzy, once a few reported cases of that bearing failure.
There are folks, that sit back and absorb info from the internet, via osmosis, and then become self-proclaimed experts, in 2.3 seconds, in regards to subject matter, such as this.
There are hundreds of thousands of H-D out there, rolling on the INA's. :)
Scott
Logged

mjb765

  • 5k CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6769

    • CVO1: 2011 FLHXSE--sold
    • CVO2: 2015 FLHXSE--sold
    • CVO3: 2018 FLTRXSE
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 07:15:25 AM »

Of course internet hysteria, creates a full-frenzy, once a few reported cases of that bearing failure.
There are folks, that sit back and absorb info from the internet, via osmosis, and then become self-proclaimed experts, in 2.3 seconds, in regards to subject matter, such as this.
There are hundreds of thousands of H-D out there, rolling on the INA's. :)Scott

Agreed...but why is that when you hear people doing cam uprades they are almost always doing the bearing upgrade as well? Just internet hype and rumor?
Logged

99fatboy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2012, 09:50:27 AM »

My wifes uncle had his INA cam bearings fail in his Evo at 28,000 miles. It left him along side the road. I replaced mine at 25,000 I wasn't taking any chances. I had a crane h-286-2b cam installed, advanced 4 degrees. Then the next year wisco 10:1 pistons. I've got great torque and have no problems keeping up with anyone. Even the stage 4 TC's. I'm talking keeping up not racing but in hard throttle ups getting on the interstate and getting up to speed in a hurry, and passing cars.
Logged

djkak

  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1278
  • FLHRSEI.ORG
Re: INA Bearings
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2012, 06:17:49 PM »

in the picture the bearing on the left is a caged roller - it will tolerate angularity - but if the cage goes bad it can drop rollers right out. the bearing on the right is a full needle bearing the needles stay in alignment just by being packed in - they wont tolerate any angularity, if the shaft is not straight they will wear and lock up. in this case i suspect the issue is load - the needle can tolerate more load by having more rollers - but the load per roller is slightly less because they dont have a cage - my old mcgill book says the needle is about 1.5 times more capacity at the expense of less tolerance for alignment.

most transmission bearings are needle and as long as the case stays straight they are good for a very long time. in the early 90's ford pickup transmissions would crap out - it turned out that the 7.3 engine would twist the case under a heavy load - that blew the bearings right out and quick - once they fixed the case the transmission problems mostly ended.

somebody in engineering wants a caged roller in there - i just wonder what the reason is - in the bearing book caged rollers cost more. [but its a old book i admit]

I believe that timo nailed it. :2vrolijk_21:  The change from the full complement cam needle bearing to the caged INA bearing came around 1991, and the issue was alignment.

The camshaft is supported by a bearing in the crankcase and a bushing in the gearcase cover. Since the crankcase and gearcase cover are produced in separate manufacturing processes, the relative location of the bearing and bushing centers is subject to production variance within a defined tolerance; they will never be perfectly aligned. In some cases they may not even be well aligned.

In the late ‘80’s there were numerous cases of camshafts thrusting to such an extent that the thrust shoulder of the bushing in the gearcase cover was worn completely off. This was evident by the metal filings behind the “points cover” as a result of the timer cup cutting a deep groove in the timer sensor plate.

The early Big Twin and Sportster transmissions ran loose roller bearings, where this style bearing was used, but you don’t see that at all anymore. As timo stated, the caged needle bearing is much more tolerant of misalignment than the loose roller bearing.

The load capacity of the loose roller bearing is greater than the caged bearing, but the tradeoff is the friction generated by the rollers misalignment. In 2006-07, the diameter of this bearing in the Twin Cam crankcase was increased, increasing its load capacity.

It seems to me that if you have an application that increases the load on this bearing, it would be appropriate to run a loose roller bearing.

as always, just my opinion
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]
 

Page created in 0.36 seconds with 24 queries.