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Author Topic: Cams for the 110 engine  (Read 22699 times)

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bobne

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Cams for the 110 engine
« on: June 29, 2012, 03:37:40 PM »

When I bought my 2010 CVO Softail Convertible my neighbor's 2009 96 cu" Fat Bob could out run me.  I took it to a local dyno shop and got a lot more performance out of it, but I'm still not that impressed. My salesman at the Harley dealer told me I needed to put cams in it to get more low-end torque. However, the head mechanic at the other Harley dealer in town said putting cams in the 110 engine is not really that good of an idea because of the head and piston "flat" design.
Myself - I would have thought paying that much for a big bad Screamin' Eagle 110 would have given me much more performance that what I have.
Thoughts on cams for a 110 engine? Good or bad idea. If a good idea, what brand and kind of cams. And if so, just cams or more?
thanks, Bob from Nebraska
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bobne

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 03:40:50 PM »

Added note. The dyno gave me 92.2 max pwr at about 3600 rpm, with max torque of 108.10 at about 5300 rpm.
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hd-dude

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 04:43:24 PM »

First would ask what else has been done to the 96"er. What pipes are on both bikes?
Your dyno numbers are about right for a stock bike.
As far as low end torque you are not going to beat the stock SE255 cam that is in the bike now. For more pull longer into the RPM range many here have changed cams on the 110 bike to the Fueling 574, andrews 54, and others.

bobne

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 06:15:20 PM »

The Fat Bob has a Screamin' Eagle Air Cleaner and Vance and Hines mufflers.
The CVO has Vance and Hines long straight shots. It was dynoed with those exhausts.
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North Georgia Hawg

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 06:45:33 PM »

Added note. The dyno gave me 92.2 max pwr at about 3600 rpm, with max torque of 108.10 at about 5300 rpm.

I think you read the numbers on the wrong scale... you must mean 108 max TQ at 3600, and 92 max HP at 5300. Numbers don't work the way you typed them....
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Boxman88

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 07:21:47 PM »

Have High Compression Pistons and Cams in my 110. It pushes 121 TQ and 113 HP. Also change the exhaust to VH X pipe with High Output Slip on's. She woke up a little.
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bobne

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 10:58:50 PM »

Boxman88

By X pipes do u mean the v&h pro pipe?
What kind of cams do u have?
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Boxman88

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2012, 09:25:47 AM »

Boxman88

By X pipes do u mean the v&h pro pipe?
What kind of cams do u have?
bobne, I have the VH Power Duels with the High Out Put slip on's Has a great sound. The cams are SE 259. HDFR did a custom tune and she runs nice. Had a Street Glide I had the motor built in it and the 110 didn't put out what that bike did so I wanted them to bump it up before I picked her up in December. The stock 110's are tuned down to meet the EPA standards. That's why that 96 out runs you.
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twinotter

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2012, 10:15:54 AM »

 IMO, this is HD's last feeble attempts at providing a motorcyle with an engine basically designed in what 1911, to meet the new strict emissions of today.
Air cooled engine will never run with power with AFR of 14,7/1 or leaner, but they attempted it anyways. Adding extra tall gearing, cams that raise compression early to "fake some power", then fall flat, cats, are all attempts to get these dinosaurs past emissions testing.
They can be made to work, new cams, no cat, lower gearing, decent exhausts and retuning to meet the actual "needs" of an air cooled motor wake these up. Unfortunately, I believe the costs of trying to meet emissions has twisted HD's arm to look for alternative ways to save $$, the results show in twisted cranks, compensators that are junk, overseas parts that fail (regulators, lifters etc etc).
It can all be corrected, BY YOU, or you could buy a Victory, and be happy.
JMO FWIW  twinotter
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glens

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 12:46:19 PM »

IMO, this is HD's last feeble attempts at providing a motorcyle with an engine basically designed in what 1911, to meet the new strict emissions of today.

The attempt ain't so feeble as you're trying to say it is.

Quote
Air cooled engine will never run with power with AFR of 14,7/1 or leaner, but they attempted it anyways. Adding extra tall gearing, cams that raise compression early to "fake some power", then fall flat, cats, are all attempts to get these dinosaurs past emissions testing.

There's ample power at lambda=1 and when excess is desired the mixture goes richer.  Do you think the bikes are running in closed-loop at full throttle?  They aren't.  The gearing is perfect on the touring bikes since '09, the low-RPM cams don't "fake" anything but instead make the power exactly where most folks use the engine all day long instead of sacrificing that excellent utility for some extra power where the engine spends 1/10 of 1% of its time.  Cats are a way of life for new internal combustion engines used on the road anymore.  These are most excellent dinosaurs and although not in every respect, to be sure, H-D is to be commended for keeping this engine type alive and well.

Quote
They can be made to work, new cams, no cat, lower gearing, decent exhausts and retuning to meet the actual "needs" of an air cooled motor wake these up.

Lower gearing is completely unnecessary in most cases and the rest of that is entirely optional except from the factory, where they (and all vehicle manufacturers) have to operate with in the boundaries of some pretty heavy constraints.

Quote
Unfortunately, I believe the costs of trying to meet emissions has twisted HD's arm to look for alternative ways to save $$, the results show in twisted cranks, compensators that are junk, overseas parts that fail (regulators, lifters etc etc).
It can all be corrected, BY YOU, or you could buy a Victory, and be happy.

It's not just the cost of meeting emissions.  The cost of doing business in general drives such decisions.

Unless someone does all the same stuff to their Victory as they have to do to their Harley, they're going to have an emissions-compliant machine running hot and at or near lambda=1 most of the time, too, and they'll still have an engine that makes me go limp just from seeing it.  So what's your point?
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twinotter

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2012, 01:25:42 PM »

Hi glens: Don't get me wrong, I love my 01 Dyna HARLEY DAVIDSON and will never part with it. I will not be buying a Victory!!
The point is Victory does meet emissions the same as HD has to, they do it without overheating, no limp modes, they make more hp and get the same or better mileage. They designed their air cooled engine with enough oil capacity and cooling (heads) to control engine temps while running the leaner AFR needed to meet emissions.
Harley could have and should done this years ago, but instead have plodded along spending countless million$$, knowing they couldn't meet emissions and still have a viable motorcycle. They could have redesigned this Twin Cam with water cooling or oil cooling years ago, HD fans would now be raving at the smart move instead of limping thru traffic and baking their ankles.
My personal ride, an 01 Dyna made 92hp at 95"/98t got 54 mpg, never ran over 220 degrees. The current motor, a S&S T124 get 48 mpg at 70 mph, makes 126hp/133t ,makes 100 ft lbs at 2550rpm/ 133 by 4000 and has never run over 210 degrees. It can go 150 mph if I want to with 2:88/1 gearing. A 110" motor at 85hp is kinda pathetic as it struggles to even make that without melting its valves and chain tensioners!
The current crop of HD's are almost unrideable IMO, unless you spend 1000's $$ to correct the issues HD pass off as their excuses. They won't dominate the market much longer, IMO at the rate they are proceeding.  JMO FWIW twinoter
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Midnight Rider

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2012, 01:27:10 PM »

Boxman88

By X pipes do u mean the v&h pro pipe?
What kind of cams do u have?

Comparing apples and tomatoes here...you have a Convertible which has the "B" engine, and he has an "A" engine with a completly different exhaust configuration.  The two really can't be compared heads up.  
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glens

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2012, 11:11:22 PM »

I will not be buying a Victory!!
The point is Victory does meet emissions the same as HD has to, they do it without overheating, no limp modes, they make more hp and get the same or better mileage. They designed their air cooled engine with enough oil capacity and cooling (heads) to control engine temps while running the leaner AFR needed to meet emissions.
Harley could have and should done this years ago, but instead have plodded along spending countless million$$, knowing they couldn't meet emissions and still have a viable motorcycle. They could have redesigned this Twin Cam with water cooling or oil cooling years ago, HD fans would now be raving at the smart move instead of limping thru traffic and baking their ankles.

Did a google search for "Victory heat" or something like that and their forums talk about it as much as ours do.  They're pulling their O2 sensor leads, looking for under-seat heat shields, removing/modifying lowers/vents, even talking about wearing leather chaps to keep their legs cool!  I'll concede that Victory makes more power than Harley on bone stock "standard" bikes, but it ain't a night and day difference and the characteristics are different as well, tending to favor the higher RPM range.  No thanks for/from me.

I'm not a fan of overly large oil coolers and/or radiators on bikes, so I doubt I'd be even riding a Harley if they'd done that before I'd gotten back into riding after a couple decades back in '07.

That's about all I've got to say on the subject.  Have a good week.
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SDCVO

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 12:42:39 AM »

I certainly don't want to be argumentative but I have to say I don't agree with your negativity towards the 110 motors or the brand. I have been riding motorcycles most of my adult life and many different brands. Before I bought the 12 SERGC a few months ago I looked at just about everything available at any price. At the end of the day, thats what I settled on and have never regretted it. I took delivery about 6 weeks ago and just crossed over 3000 miles today. With just a set of pipes and a good tune, I am getting over 120 torque out of the motor and though certainly there are many bikes out there that cost a hell of a lot less and have a hell of a lot more power, in my humble opinion, they do not compare...
Could the moco do a better job? Of course they can but at the end of the day they are still the business model that is studied at every business college in the world and still performing for their stock holders better then most.
If you go to any forum for any other brand out there you will see people complaining about one thing or another that is inherent for that brand, I guess it is the nature of the beast...
 You have an amazing motorcycle, congratulations on being successful in life enough to be able to afford a highline model like a CVO Harley!!!
Again, not to argue...
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Alan

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2012, 01:17:33 AM »

 I  found it kind of odd that of the 20 or so Victory owners I've talked to, not one has mentioned any problems. 3 Had over 50000 miles, money spent on repairs, 0!! They have all heard about the issues with the new Harley's, tho. I'm sure Victory has had some issues, just like FOrd and AUdi, but they seem to aggressively fix them, not make it worse!!
Some of these Victory owners said they bought a Victory because of the HD problems they'd heard about.

San Diego CVO. How much did you spend to make your "fantastic" bike liveable? New exhaust, no cat, TTS or similar, and retune. Should you have to "fix" a $35000 bike the day you get it, not this boyo!! 3000miles, tell me how you feel at 25000, make sure you add the repair bills to the list.
I wish you all the best of luck, Harley sales success was built on the Evo motor, flourished on the early TC's. It could all disappear if they don't find the answers required to make them driveable and reliable again. JM2C FWIW
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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2012, 01:34:11 AM »

Twinotter, i know this sounds like I am arguing but I took delivery of a BMW 7 series a couple of moths earlier for my wife and I drive a Q7 in my "real life". I have had the BMW in the shop much more then my HD even though they both have about the same miles and spent more money on both cars after delivery to "make them right" then I did on the RG. Either one of my cars or my motorcycle is "basic transportation" but all 3 are awesome but they didn't come that way...
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Alan

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2012, 01:35:17 AM »

Sorry, I mean "not basic transportation"...
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Alan

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2012, 11:47:57 AM »

 Hi San Diego CVO: It seems to be the way of the world, everything gets so complicated that it can't sustain itself, cars (no specific brand) being a good example. I've known people here that bought cars that threw trouble codes since day one.
 A Harley by car standards is a very simple mechanical machine, they've strived hard to keep it that way too. I think a vast majority of HD sales are based on the nostaligic and loyalty of owners.  My point was and is that Harley has deliberately lower their standards,buying inferior overseas parts, going from forged cranks to cast while refusing to deal with an issue they could have years ago. Emissions has brought these nice motorcycles almost to its knees, it will take a major redesign of the entire engine to save them now.
I love my Harley, with its little quirks, it has nothing on it that is not required for function, it takes me back in time to a simpler life, just the road, and some songs in my head. No FI, no radio, no GPS,no ABS etc. Fill with gas, GO hehe. My T124 motor gets 42 mpg (US) at 70mph, my buds CVO Streetglide get 30 on good days, retuned so it doesn't boil the oil. Simple is better, I think. Repairs on my bike in last 5 yrs have cost $12 (tires are not repairs).
 I'm leaving in 3 wks for a 8000mile trip, I expect no problems no matter the conditions. I will change oils as required on the trip, thats it! Have a great, untroubled day.  Happy July 4th.  twinotter  :)
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Midnight Rider

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 01:28:06 PM »

Victory is a nice motorcycle, particularly their more "naked" models.  The only touring model they make I would even consider is the Cross Country...the Vision is a nice bike as well, but I can't get past the look of it.  It's an air cooled motor, despite the fact that the heads are "oil cooled"...it's still dependent on air for heat transfer, so when it's 90 degrees outside, it's going to run hot like any other air cooled motor.  Most Victory's I've seen have had Stage I or II mods done to them as well, which include EPA violations, just like we do to our Harleys.  They are good bikes, and have claimed some of the marketshare.  One concern is that they do not have the dealer network in place, so IF you did have a problem on the road, it could be a PITA to get it fixed.  Of course, the probability of having a problem may be less, but I haven't studied the statistics to make a statement like that one way or the other. 

Harley has had some pretty significant issues in the past few years, particularly with their introduction of the 110" engine and not properly testing it prior to putting it out there for us to test for them, then taking what seems like forever to come up with a real fix for the issues.  Their use of cheaper key parts is also a poor decision.  It's all about the $$, which is not a good thing all the time.  HD faces some real challenges in the not too distant future, especially as their most loyal customer base...the "Baby Boomers" start getting too old to ride...attracting the younger riders, who expect quality in every respect when they purchase a vehicle of any description, is going to be difficult for them with their current quality control issues.  A lot of us over the age of 50 or so grew up with vehicles that we were constantly having to do stuff to...tune ups, brake jobs, front end alignment, etc were regular maintenance items.  Now, we all (for the most part) drive vehicles that you just drive and change the oil in, with the occasional brake job.  The point being that we don't seem to mind "tinkering" with out bikes...in fact, a lot of us rather enjoy it.  But most young folks I know do not have that mindset.  The "to hell with the customer, they'll sell anyway" days are numbered, so HD had better re-evaluate their corporate philosophy before they are caught too far behind the curve to catch up.  If they can't figure out a way to ensure that key engine components like crankshafts, lifters, valve stem seals, cam bearings are dead on reliable, it doesn't speak very highly of their regard for the consumer of their products.  It ain't rocket science.
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bobne

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 01:59:11 PM »

The original reason for this thread has gotten off track, but it still has some good discussions. I traded my 2009 Fatboy in on my 2010 Softail Convertible since the Fatboy was a dog and I wanted something more powerful - that's why I spend LOTS of money on a Screamin' Eagle 110 bike. But when my neighbor's stock 2009 96 cu in. Fat Bob could out run my big bad CVO I was pretty disappointed. So after talking to both Harley dealers in town (Omaha, NE) I had it dyno tuned and got the performance back to what it should have been when I bought it. I shouldn't have had to spend the extra time and money doing that! But I'm still disappointed in its performance, that's why I was asking about cams, etc.
Maybe subconsciously I am comparing it to the 2009 VRod I had. I know the hardcore Harley person will not accept this engine but it sure as hell is better than the existing twin cam!! I consider myself a hardcore Harley person - I'm on my seventh Harley - but I sure can see Harley needs to so something  to fix the existing engine. I also have an Ultra Limited and a new Street Glide - neither one I can ride in town in summer without cooking my right leg off!
I like the looks and sound of a Harley, and I'll probably never get ride of the ones I have, but it sure would be nice if the Harley engine design department would come up with a well-designed well-made engine
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Midnight Rider

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 02:26:21 PM »

This is just a guess, but in '09, the emissions standards were different, and IF your friend was running a completely stock bike, his tune might be slightly richer (A/F ratio) than your bike.  Harley has to meet EPA standards, and that's not just about emmisions, but noise goes into that overall equation as well.  If you buy an air cooled HD and are not happy with a stock running bike, getting it tuned properly is a given in the Universe.  How many HD bikes do you see/hear that have stock exhaust systems on them?  Around here, I'd venture to say it is less than 10%.  Even a bone stock bike can benefit from a good tune, just from a drivability standpoint.  That's just something you have to know you're going to have to do going in.  I'm not saying it's necessarily right, but it is what it is.

Comparing it to a Vrod is an apples to oranges thing.  I had a '06 SEVROD...stock, it had a stumble from 3-4K.  It was a common issue.  Put PCIII on it and it was good to go.  But it would smoke my '06 SEUC.
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Sometimes it takes a whole tankful of fuel before you can think straight.
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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2012, 05:09:37 PM »

Buddy of mine put a Cycle Rama 575,Vance and Hines HO pro pipe and a dyno tune, huge pick up in power, if I remember correctly torque was around 117 and hp just about 100, pulling real well from about 2500rpm FWIW.
BTW in a 2011 Convertible.
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CVODON

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2012, 09:15:09 PM »

Thread got way off topic somehow, BUT, last year I decided to test ride a Victory @ Daytona Bikeweek. Not sure what it is called but it is the one with the tourpak std. It vibrated terrible, almost as bad as my 99 Fatboy. I made it across Richard Petty Blvd, made u-turn and took it back. When I got off the demo guy said "what' the problem?", I politely told him the bike vibrates, alot, he replied, also in a pleasant tone "what type Harley do you own?" I told him a 09 RG CVO and he said, and I quote " Sorry but our bikes are very durable but will never be as smooth as your Harley at speed". I thanked him and walked away.
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twinotter

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2012, 12:55:26 PM »

  I guess I'm at least partley responsible for dragging the discussion off topisc here, But it has brought the reasons for the need to change things. It is my belief that HD knows exactly what they're doing, and that is chasing the almightly profit. I can't recommend any particular cam combo that answers all the questions, the aftermarket has been chasing that for several years. Engines can be made to perform within certain boundaries, you can have tractor like pull at low rpms, or mid range or top end, there really is no "one does it all".
You will have to choose your poison, and live with it, or change it again. Until HD chooses to build an engine that can control the heat issues, they will not have a viable product imo.
There are already rumors that this may happen very soon, ie water or oil cooled heads etc.
Let hope the new generation of riders get a new improved version, and HD is mart enough to make it so the parts are retrofitable to the present. We deserve better from the "best" company out there.  Jm2c FWIW twinotter  :)
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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2012, 12:23:52 PM »

Being a CVO owner....I am not a fan of the motor company, the stealers, the quality and the attitude.  I bought a very expensive bike.  It came with most of the parts loose from the dealer the day I picked it up.  Thank you for the marketing of a hand built bike that no one saw fit to make sure it would stay together and not kill me on the first ride. This tells you the level of quality, inspection, and care by the entire process.

Then I have recalls for the back brake blowing all of the oil out of the Master Cylinder and frying the LED tail light. Nice.
I still love the bike but hate the price tag. Hidden cost like:
Please check this part....$39.90 part inspection fee
Come back to see why part is still not fixed...$93.50 diagnostic fee
Whoops mechanic forgot to check part you were charged the first time to check since they did not understand what you meant to check......part free since we did not understand but our labor must be paid for.
Nice padding of their wallet.....first hidden fee

Second hidden fee
Quality or really the lack of. Whether you maintain it yourself or not....oh you will maintain it.
We work on these things because we have to. Oil problems on the 110, noise and list goes on.  All the bike has to do is last two years and then it is your problem and expense.  Think over 60K miles how much you are going to spend on your bike to get it there.  Then think about any other brand of bike and how much it will cost that bikes owner to get there.

Lessons learned for being a CVO owner.  HD marketing works wonders
CVO is a term for a dealer to say ....well we do not work on them too often so...You pay for lack of training?
HD...sells you a Screaming Eagle without mostly Screaming Eagle parts. (My bike is really a Dyna with a cool paint job, chrome and the 110 motor.  Mainly stock Dyna parts with a few special ones in a nut shell).
Do dealers really care about your bike or trying to get them out the door as fast as possible?
Some reason no one wants to know about a 110 and has written off the motor already.
Would it be cheaper to build your own "CVO" with reliable parts and not have to deal with the HD gotta attitude before they bleed you dry maintaining their less than average quality machines? 
Do you not wonder why it is now cheaper to buy a new motor than fix your own? We are the lucky recipients of a throw away motor for this expensive bike. Hell the sport bikes run longer and cheaper with the same abuse.
Love the HD marketing, it is a life style. An attitude.
Huh they are right...I am developing one  ;)


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THUNDER MOUNTAIN

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2019, 10:12:07 AM »

Hi ! I have a question, its possible to use the stock cam CVO 253 from 103SE  to 110SE
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rigidthumper

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2019, 10:30:12 AM »

Hi ! I have a question, its possible to use the stock cam CVO 253 from 103SE  to 110SE
No, the journals for the 99-06 cams wont fit in the 07 and newer cases. If you can find a 25578-06 cam set, that's the 253's made for an 07-16 case.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 10:32:49 AM by rigidthumper »
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groupw

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Re: Cams for the 110 engine
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2019, 07:24:17 PM »

.... How much did you spend to make your "fantastic" bike liveable?

......... it's now 6 years after the original posting that is quoted above, and HD 'livability' has apparently improved over the years
........ i spent absolutely $zero on modifications/upgrades to my '16 SERGU and it is the most wonderful ride I could ask for.
....... it's just not yellow......... damn.
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