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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: scottt on June 01, 2008, 02:55:21 PM
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Yesterday I was at my dealer, they told me that the parts were in to fix my head gasket leak (2007 SEUC with 7500 miles). I was talking to one of the owners. I mentioned the problems with with 110 head gasket and crank. He told me that Harley changed the way they were building their motors a couple of years ago and that the newer motors, not just the 110". seem to have problems when modified. He also mentioned that they had problems with cranks going back a couple of years, again, not just the 110.
It sounded to me that Harley had made a change in the way they are building this generation of V Twins, My take was the newer motors are not as strong and not built for additional horse power.
Harley should inform there customers of the change and let them know that their motors will not hold-up to any modification. I explained that the only modification I had made was to help the engine last (SE Race Tuner, Air Cleaner and Pipes). I told him that the factory setup pinged and ran hot as heck. He said he knew all the newer bikes ran hot. (Maybe these are the reasons they have two new 08 SEUlta's sitting on the showroom floor with no buyers).
They are taking care of me, I do have concerns, I am also happy I have an extended warranty. It sounds like It will be needed.
It is just sad that Harley cut corners on the new motor design. If I had it to do over again, I would keep my 2005 carb. FLHTC and upgrade with quality parts as needed.
I love the way my 07 SEUC runs, I Love the 6 Speed and I really like the look of the bike, I just wish Harley had done a better job enginering the motor.
Scottt
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Yea they changed the way they build motors. It's called cheap Chinese built parts, i.e barrel and crank casting. Hell, the Moco is even to cheap to buy Japanese quality parts. I think they are learning to build motorcycles from the Hyundai cars manufactures.
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I seem to recall that Lexus (Toyota) Acura (Honda) have been more reliable than some of our good ole American brands in most if not all surveys. I think the issue is in engineering design and spec's (HD USA) vs. country of manufacturer.
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If I'm not mistaken, when Honda came out with the VTX 1800, the crank in that was so big that they didn't have the manufacturing capabilities to make it a single piece crank. So they had to manufacture a two-piece. To my knowledge, they have not had any problems with that crank. So a two piece crank can be made properly, or at least Honda can design one. I have to agree, the foundries only make what they're told. If you design on the cheap, you end up with an on-the-cheap product. Just like why did HD drop the timken bearing after 02-03? The bottom line is all that matters today. If you can cut production costs and still charge the same or more for a product, the bottom line is increased. If parts fail, you hope it's a small enough of an amount that you onesy-twosey the repairs. Sometimes though, as in the case of the 110, that design mentality catches up to you and you end up with a quasi-serious problem, which will affect the reputation of the company and thus the bottom line. Eventually, most companies, if they want to stay in business, resolve the issues. But once the reputation is damaged, it's hard to get it back to where it was.
:devil:
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And if your livelihood depended on selling such engines to people, would you tell them: A) "Yeah, two years and they're still building the same problems into them. You can either live with it or fix them on your own." or B) "There were a few problems early on, but they were covered under warranty and the new ones are different." ????? I'm still waiting on that letter from the factory that I keep hearing about. Look! There's a ship! We're saved. Oh wait...never mind, just a cloud.
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And if your livelihood depended on selling such engines to people, would you tell them: A) "Yeah, two years and they're still building the same problems into them. You can either live with it or fix them on your own." or B) "There were a few problems early on, but they were covered under warranty and the new ones are different." ????? I'm still waiting on that letter from the factory that I keep hearing about. Look! There's a ship! We're saved. Oh wait...never mind, just a cloud.
Haven't heard anything new on this. Tried to dig deeper, but the vault has gotten closed even tighter now. It's as if word has gotten out and the leaks have been sealed. :nixweiss:
I'm waiting just as everyone is, but have had too many confirmations from totally unrelated sources, having NOTHING to do with this site, to think this is not going to happen.
Parts first, then letter. No idea of timing on the letter.
If you purchased your scoot used, make sure you have sent in the Change of Ownership card in the back of the Owner's Manual so the letter comes to you and not the original owner.
Hopefully they'll let us know what's going on before the dealer's show, but the timing is looking very closely coordinated with the 2009 model year. Since these parts are supposed to be going into production before being sent to dealers, putting them on our bikes before the new models are out may let the cat out of the bag if there's something really different about them.
I'm just wondering where they're going to mount my radiator? :nixweiss:
Just Joking
:indian_chief:
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I'm just wondering where they're going to mount my radiator? :nixweiss:
Just Joking
:indian_chief:
You say that jokingly but I was thinking that as I read your post especially after someone posted that the '09 touring bikes would be water cooled. :-\
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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In case any of you really think water cooling is going to fix the problems, you need to realize that the crankshaft issues and the head gasket/cylinder liner issues aren't caused by the method of cooling the engine. They are caused by poor design and poor manufacturing quality, both of which are the result of cost cutting carried to extremes. If the engines were water cooled but still had cheap-assed Chinese flywheels with inaccurate machining, you would still have failures. The same goes for cheap-assed cylinders, or any of the other cheapo changes H-D made to these engines. Blaming H-D's lack of quality on the method of cooling the engine, or EPA regulations, or the phase of the moon, is all BS. The blame rests squarely on the management of H-D and the poor choices they made. Considering the fact that water cooling will add significantly to their costs, you may find that the problems actually get worse as they cheapen everything else to compensate.
Jerry
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In case any of you really think water cooling is going to fix the problems, you need to realize that the crankshaft issues and the head gasket/cylinder liner issues aren't caused by the method of cooling the engine. They are caused by poor design and poor manufacturing quality, both of which are the result of cost cutting carried to extremes. If the engines were water cooled but still had cheap-assed Chinese flywheels with inaccurate machining, you would still have failures. The same goes for cheap-assed cylinders, or any of the other cheapo changes H-D made to these engines. Blaming H-D's lack of quality on the method of cooling the engine, or EPA regulations, or the phase of the moon, is all BS. The blame rests squarely on the management of H-D and the poor choices they made. Considering the fact that water cooling will add significantly to their costs, you may find that the problems actually get worse as they cheapen everything else to compensate.
Jerry
Huzzah! Can you imagine spewing ethylglycol all over yer fancy chaps! The boneheads at HD are just that...The material quality was never close to others and staying the course with driveline components should cost some of those seven figure VP's their jobs...What a bunch of Effsticks...Same I love Siamese rod, aircooled, vtwins so much.
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In case any of you really think water cooling is going to fix the problems, you need to realize that the crankshaft issues and the head gasket/cylinder liner issues aren't caused by the method of cooling the engine. They are caused by poor design and poor manufacturing quality, both of which are the result of cost cutting carried to extremes. If the engines were water cooled but still had cheap-assed Chinese flywheels with inaccurate machining, you would still have failures. The same goes for cheap-assed cylinders, or any of the other cheapo changes H-D made to these engines. Blaming H-D's lack of quality on the method of cooling the engine, or EPA regulations, or the phase of the moon, is all BS. The blame rests squarely on the management of H-D and the poor choices they made. Considering the fact that water cooling will add significantly to their costs, you may find that the problems actually get worse as they cheapen everything else to compensate.
Jerry
I have never paid much attention to V Rods....but have there been any significant quality issues with this motor? :nixweiss: :nixweiss:
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In case any of you really think water cooling is going to fix the problems, you need to realize that the crankshaft issues and the head gasket/cylinder liner issues aren't caused by the method of cooling the engine. They are caused by poor design and poor manufacturing quality, both of which are the result of cost cutting carried to extremes. If the engines were water cooled but still had cheap-assed Chinese flywheels with inaccurate machining, you would still have failures. The same goes for cheap-assed cylinders, or any of the other cheapo changes H-D made to these engines. Blaming H-D's lack of quality on the method of cooling the engine, or EPA regulations, or the phase of the moon, is all BS. The blame rests squarely on the management of H-D and the poor choices they made. Considering the fact that water cooling will add significantly to their costs, you may find that the problems actually get worse as they cheapen everything else to compensate.
Jerry
Jerry I agree with all of the above, to add to it, The choices made by the motor company are based on being a Publicly held corp, They answer only to share holders to return a profit- the above changes were made on that basis alone, while having to be held hostage by a union work force in order to boost profits and maintain the union Cost have to be cut no matter if they make any sense to the consumer.
That is another factor in Mfg jobs going off shore. The Company no longer has to provide cradle to grave coverage to it's work force cutting expense and boosting profits to return to the shareholders. It just the way it is.
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If HD goes WC on their touring bikes, they'll probably go with a crankshaft design like the VRod, not the traditional single crankpin flywheel design that we love. Beginning of the end as I've been saying for the last year and a half. They'll be mashing your potato-potato boys! Then at least you wont have to worry about flywheels walking anymore! You won't have the soul of our beloved A/C single crankpin V-Twins anymore either! To each their own! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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If HD goes WC on their touring bikes, they'll probably go with a crankshaft design like the VRod, not the traditional single crankpin flywheel design that we love. Beginning of the end as I've been saying for the last year and a half. They'll be mashing your potato-potato boys! Then at least you wont have to worry about flywheels walking anymore! You won't have the soul of our beloved A/C single crankpin V-Twins anymore either! To each their own! ;)
Hoist! 8)
Potato - potato pretty much went away with higher idle speeds.
:indian_chief:
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Fuel injection vs carburation changed the sound of the new motors.
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Wasn't nothing like an Evo w/the idle set really low and a decent exhaust. You'd really get that nice potato potato sound. :2vrolijk_21:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Wasn't nothing like an Evo w/the idle set really low and a decent exhaust. You'd really get that nice potato potato sound. :2vrolijk_21:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
The sounds are different with the changes you've mentioned, true. But the reason for the basic sound of these motors is the 45deg V-Twin design with the single crankpin/flywheel assembly. That alone causes the motor to fire the way it does. And those offset cylinders due to the use of a crankshaft bug the chit outta me! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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you could still have the same connecting rod setup on single lobe cracnksaft
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you could still have the same connecting rod setup on single lobe cracnksaft
Normally a crankshaft is setup for a counterbalaced design. And the cylinders will always be offset on the cases.
Hoist! 8)
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normally they are offset because each lobe is its own cylinder. i'd bet a decent engineer could design a single lobe crank shaft thats properly ballenced. but i doubt that guy works for H-D
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you could still have the same connecting rod setup on single lobe cracnksaft
I agree, the V-Star 1300 is a WC single pin crank engine. And it balances out beautifully. :nixweiss:
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Haven't heard anything new on this. Tried to dig deeper, but the vault has gotten closed even tighter now. It's as if word has gotten out and the leaks have been sealed. :nixweiss:
I'm waiting just as everyone is, but have had too many confirmations from totally unrelated sources, having NOTHING to do with this site, to think this is not going to happen.
Parts first, then letter. No idea of timing on the letter.
If you purchased your scoot used, make sure you have sent in the Change of Ownership card in the back of the Owner's Manual so the letter comes to you and not the original owner.
Hopefully they'll let us know what's going on before the dealer's show, but the timing is looking very closely coordinated with the 2009 model year. Since these parts are supposed to be going into production before being sent to dealers, putting them on our bikes before the new models are out may let the cat out of the bag if there's something really different about them.
I'm just wondering where they're going to mount my radiator? :nixweiss:
Just Joking
:indian_chief:
Right on those beautifully red powder-coated down tubes. :-\ Think I'd tell them to pound sand if that's the fix. :D
:devil:
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normally they are offset because each lobe is its own cylinder. i'd bet a decent engineer could design a single lobe crank shaft thats properly ballenced. but i doubt that guy works for H-D
There is a difference between static and dynamic balance. Every crank can be balanced, but it may only be balanced at one rpm range. With the "B" motors and the counterbalance shafts, they pretty much stay with the crank throughout the rpm range to provide an over all better balance.
Back in '86 GM went with counterbalance shafts on their 3.8 motor and I think the 4.3 went to them in the late '90s. There are extra moving parts, but I think they do a better job over all.
When I had my '76 Shovelhead crank rebuilt last winter, they did a general balance which they call a 60% balance. This seems to be the most used figure I've seen. It is smoother in the rpm range I ride at, but if I get over that then the motor starts to get my wife smiling again... :o :o
When we went riding Sunday on the old '76 FLH the old seat vibrator was working great. She said she missed that on the new SERK, but very happy with the smoothness of the new bike.
Did I say that I rode the old '76 FLH Sunday??? Yes I did because my new SERK let me down on the freeway when the PCM III took a dump. So without a tuner to control the fuel etc, I was not going to ride it. I just finished up with the rebuild and new cylinders/pistons etc on the old bike and now that it's broken in, it's really a very slow tank to ride on... :( :( :(
Anyway, back to the V-twin balance. I don't believe that with the "V" nature of the twin cylinder motor that any crank could be made that would be IN balance throughout the rpm range.
Didn't Harley sue one of the Metric bike companies back in the '80s or '90s about the sound that the Metric bike made? I thought Harley was claiming a copywrite on the way their bike sounds. Is that a Urban Ledgend or did it happen?
:) :) :)
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i think that was urban legened, but i wouldnt put it past them
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Not aware of Harley suing anybody, but their patent app. process got a lot of press.
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/st_org/iptf/articles/content/1998101101.html (http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/st_org/iptf/articles/content/1998101101.html)
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i think that was urban legened, but i wouldnt put it past them
Not quite legend. They tried to patent the sound, including even patenting the "tinging" sound you get after you shut it down as it's cooling off. They lost that battle. But they did try to patent the "HD" sound! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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They are caused by poor design and poor manufacturing quality, both of which are the result of cost cutting carried to extremes
Well said, and oh so true but a sad situation for the purist. :nixweiss:
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H-Ds have whats called 'knife-fork' rods , one rod sits inside the other. You have 2 cyl. so , 360 degree times 2 = 720 . One cyl. fires at 315 degree and the other fires at 405 degrees ,there is your sound ! Put your hand {with a glove} on the end of the front exhaust pipe ,and notice how many times it fires ,now do it on the back pipe , ALOT LESS , YES ? Each motor ,has its own sound {knucks ,pans,shovel,EVO ,TC } do to there heads and cams ,pipes ,etc. In my opion , the shovels had the sweetest sound ,just don't be in a closed garage with one running ,because you will die from the gas fumes ! Only 1/2 of the gas in the combustion chamber burns ,unless you 'dual plug' them !
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I have never paid much attention to V Rods....but have there been any significant quality issues with this motor? :nixweiss: :nixweiss:
Absolutely no issues reported with the V-Rod plant, aka Revolution.
Check out the V-rod forums, very very active. That's one excellent powerplant. But it lacks potato-potato. Think big block Chevy or Nascar when at speed with decent exhaust (I have a Thunderheader on mine)
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Absolutely no issues reported with the V-Rod plant, aka Revolution.
Check out the V-rod forums, very very active. That's one excellent powerplant. But it lacks potato-potato. Think big block Chevy or Nascar when at speed with decent exhaust (I have a Thunderheader on mine)
I thought my 05 SE V-Rod sounded like a nasty Ferarri.
B B
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I thought my 05 SE V-Rod sounded like a nasty Ferarri.
B B
When I had only pulled off the airbox, I think I would agree with that assessment. To me it seems that the choice of exhaust on Revo's makes a lot of difference on the sound of these bikes.
But they're all pure joy to me, an awesome ride in so many ways. But hold the "potato".
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I'd love a bagger with a Revo engine. I don't care about sound. I'd much rather have cool running, efficient, reliable, smooth and quiet (mechanically).
Honestly, if Honda or Yamaha made a bike that looked like a Harley and had real metal parts I'd be all over it. My VTX is in many ways a far superior bike but the plasti-chrome is a real turnoff. The engine is awesome though. Smooth and quiet with a huge powerband. You can lug it down to 1K rpm and it doesn't complain at all. Do that with a bagger and it shakes your fillings out.
Harley took gamble with the V-Rod and from what the dealer told me they lost their shirt on it. They don't sell well. Seems a shame they don't put that great engine in a more traditional frame.
bm
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I'd love a bagger with a Revo engine. I don't care about sound. I'd much rather have cool running, efficient, reliable, smooth and quiet (mechanically).
Honestly, if Honda or Yamaha made a bike that looked like a Harley and had real metal parts I'd be all over it. My VTX is in many ways a far superior bike but the plasti-chrome is a real turnoff. The engine is awesome though. Smooth and quiet with a huge powerband. You can lug it down to 1K rpm and it doesn't complain at all. Do that with a bagger and it shakes your fillings out.
Harley took gamble with the V-Rod and from what the dealer told me they lost their shirt on it. They don't sell well. Seems a shame they don't put that great engine in a more traditional frame.
bm
Don't know how old you are, or how many motorcycles you've owned, but in a lot of ways I agree with you. The trouble is after 40 years and more than 20 motorcycles that I can remember, I am conditioned to certain things. One of them is that I can hear the exhaust over the noise of the mechanicals in the engine. I rode several V-rods before buying my 05 SE V-rod. Everyone I rode, I could hear all the internals of the engine over the exhaust. Drove me nuts. So, the SE V-Rod had a Thunderheader on it when I took delivery of it. I was in Hawaii working when I made the deal on the bike and the dealership having sold me several bikes already was willing to do it that way. That bike was so fast, it was almost scary. It WAS scary sometimes to be truthful. But the Thunderheader was way too loud. It was earshattering at 10,000 RPM's I used to wear ear plugs and a full helmet whenever I rode the bike because it was so loud. Can't believe I had it as long as I did an never got a ticket, but I always rode out into the desert to blast around on it. I sold it because I just too damn big for the V-Rod frame. But I loved the motor so I agree totally that I look forward to H-D putting out a more conventional style frame with that motor in it. Especially a touring model. Hopefully I will be able to leave the exhaust alone and get used to the noise of the motor.
B B