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CVO Technical => General CVO discussion => Topic started by: longlast on April 23, 2016, 10:57:26 AM
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I had a oil change at 6k on my Ultra. I've got 11.5k on it now this will be it's second change
Q. is it dew for a change or is it soon? and dose the primary as a rule get changed at the same time as the motor oil?
At the shop I plan on going to the fella asked how many miles I've got on it, I told him and he said the primary should be changed every 2,500 miles. :nixweiss:
Thanks.
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Change all three holes at 5000 mIle intervals.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Change all three holes at 5000 mIle intervals.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Cheers! :2vrolijk_21:
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Change all three holes at 5000 mIle intervals.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
I don't even do that. Engine and primary at 5k. Any good transmission gear oil will live a lot longer. For me the tranny gets changed with the spring services in even numbered years or at about 25k miles. Even that is an abundance of caution. Just think how long that same oil just keeps going and going and going in the third members of our automobiles?
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What Twolane said. I would further comment that it depends on what kind of lubricant you run in the transmission. If running a real gear lubricant, which I do, you only need to change it around 25k miles at the earliest. If you're running motor oil in the trans like Harley does on the CVO's, then I'd change it along with the other fluids.
The motor oil should be changed at the Harley recommended 5000 miles, and it makes sense to change the primary at the same time considering how much trash from the clutch builds up in that oil. Harley only calls for changing the primary at 10k miles btw.
Jerry
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What Twolane said. I would further comment that it depends on what kind of lubricant you run in the transmission. If running a real gear lubricant, which I do, you only need to change it around 25k miles at the earliest. If you're running motor oil in the trans like Harley does on the CVO's, then I'd change it along with the other fluids.
The motor oil should be changed at the Harley recommended 5000 miles, and it makes sense to change the primary at the same time considering how much trash from the clutch builds up in that oil. Harley only calls for changing the primary at 10k miles btw.
Jerry
What gear lube do you use? I have left it up to the HD shop 20/50w Davidson oil I believe is in all three. I'm going to start changing it my self. It makes more cense to use a gear lube in a trans.
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Change all oil every 500 miles, who knows better than the engineers who built it!
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Change all oil every 500 miles, who knows better than the engineers who built it!
Did you forget a "0" or are you being facetious? You can't be serous. :nervous:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Change all oil every 500 miles, who knows better than the engineers who built it!
Hahaha! that's a good one ;D As Firedood pointed out I take it was a type O
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There are many good gear lubes. I use Redline Shockproof Heavy, but there is also Spectro, BelRay, Mobil 1, Amsoil, and even Harley's Formula +. What you want is 75W90.
Jerry
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If I've towed the trailer a fair amount, I may change oil within 4k to 4.5k, primary as the book says to. Tranny might be sooner than the recommended, again, based on how much I've pulled the Bushtec and for how many of those miles.
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Same as I did back in the Shovel-Head days. Every 12-1500 miles. Run straight 60W in the Summer. Later--HUBBARD
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There are many good gear lubes. I use Redline Shockproof Heavy, but there is also Spectro, BelRay, Mobil 1, Amsoil, and even Harley's Formula +. What you want is 75W90.
Jerry
Thanks for that Jerry, I got another one whilst I got ya here. I've been reading up in the manual for my 07 and it says to use SYN3 Synthetic lube in the primary. it also says to check the level and add if required but doesn't say were the level should be or how to check it other then the bike be upright and at operating temp. Am I correct in saying that 20w50 motor oil is commonly used in the primary.
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Change all oil every 500 miles, who knows better than the engineers who built it!
typo notwithstanding, the engineers who designed it didn't spec for oil changes in all 3 holes every 5k. the book calls for engine every 5k, primary every 10k and transmission every 20k. i like to do engine and primary every 5k. with the cable clutch, i would do a clutch adjustment at the same time. hydraulic clutch, no worries.
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Thanks for that Jerry, I got another one whilst I got ya here. I've been reading up in the manual for my 07 and it says to use SYN3 Synthetic lube in the primary. it also says to check the level and add if required but doesn't say were the level should be or how to check it other then the bike be upright and at operating temp. Am I correct in saying that 20w50 motor oil is commonly used in the primary.
There is no simple method to check the primary fluid level like with the motor oil and transmission, which have dipsticks. And checking the primary level is normally only done when you change the fluids. But the best way to check it is with the bike sitting upright and level, remove the clutch inspection cover (derby cover), and the fluid should just touch the bottom of the clutch. Never overfill, as that can cause clutch drag.
As for the fluid, you can use one of the motor oils that claim to be OK for all three holes, like SYN-3 / Mobil 1 V-Twin / Amsoil V-Twin, or something like Formula + and similar basic gear oils. Just make sure whatever you use is fully compatible with a wet clutch. Some of us even run automatic transmission fluid, but that's a subject for another day. If you prefer to limit the number of different products you have to buy and store, I'd use the motor oil for the engine and the primary, and then a real gear lube for the trans.
JMHO -Jerry
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Same as I did back in the Shovel-Head days. Every 12-1500 miles. Run straight 60W in the Summer. Later--HUBBARD
We put a man on the moon.....put men in space for many months at a time.....you'd think they could develop a filtration system that would allow us to never need an oil change. :P
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We put a man on the moon.....put men in space for many months at a time.....you'd think they could develop a filtration system that would allow us to never need an oil change. :P
It wouldn't matter JC, because way too many people have preconceived notions based on what we did thirty or forty years ago plus a ton of advertising, and even if a product was introduced that never required changing most folks would still change it. We already have lubricants that will perform well for two, three, and even four times as long as the recommended change intervals, but very few will allow them to stay in an engine that long, other than big commercial operators who do real oil analysis and set up their own maintenance schedules. Meanwhile, people still go to the quick lube joints that still "recommend" 3000 mile oil changes. Sure they do, but that recommendation isn't based on what the vehicle and it's owner need, it's strictly based on the profit motive.
In the automotive world we are seeing automated systems that tell the driver when to change the motor oil based not just on miles, but instead based on how the engine has been run and under what conditions. Two people with the exact same car might have wildly different oil change intervals based on how they use the car. For instance, Person A might do nothing but long runs on the highway every day, while Person B may do nothing but short hops around town. Person B would need to change the oil at a lower number of miles than Person A, since those short hops are much harder on the engine and the oil. The automated systems take that and many many other factors into consideration.
Jerry
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OK, I know now how I'm going to precede I will use the trans gear lube and the motor lube in the other two holes. It's been 30 yrs plus since I have worked on bikes and what I do remember is some what out of date, A bit like me ;D,
Thanks for all your time and input TOP GUYS :2vrolijk_21:
btw, Jerry I was reading the manual on the primary level and it did say not to over fill and what can happen if you do but didn't say to what level to fill it to. SO thanks for that info as well :2vrolijk_21:
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It wouldn't matter JC, because way too many people have preconceived notions based on what we did thirty or forty years ago plus a ton of advertising, and even if a product was introduced that never required changing most folks would still change it. We already have lubricants that will perform well for two, three, and even four times as long as the recommended change intervals, but very few will allow them to stay in an engine that long, other than big commercial operators who do real oil analysis and set up their own maintenance schedules. Meanwhile, people still go to the quick lube joints that still "recommend" 3000 mile oil changes. Sure they do, but that recommendation isn't based on what the vehicle and it's owner need, it's strictly based on the profit motive.
In the automotive world we are seeing automated systems that tell the driver when to change the motor oil based not just on miles, but instead based on how the engine has been run and under what conditions. Two people with the exact same car might have wildly different oil change intervals based on how they use the car. For instance, Person A might do nothing but long runs on the highway every day, while Person B may do nothing but short hops around town. Person B would need to change the oil at a lower number of miles than Person A, since those short hops are much harder on the engine and the oil. The automated systems take that and many many other factors into consideration.
Jerry
It goes even further then that with bmw, car reads driving conditions as you said but then notifies the servicing dealer via OEM emergency communication system (will automatically send for help if air bags are deployed and send gps location to emergency services). Dealer will then call you to tell you to set up appointment for whatever service car needs.
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Same vehicle(Jeep GC CRD) in Europe and Canada......Europe 30,000 km before oil change....Canada 7500 km.....and this is after the introduction of ULSD .
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BMW not the originator of the dealer notification deal, I have been getting monthly emails from GM (On-Star) since at least 04 when I bought an Escalade. It gives u the % of oil life, tire press, abs, stabiltrac, airbag status etc. We also get a email from the dealer when the oil remaining % says to change. U get this info on even the cheapest Sonic now for free for 5 years, We use it on the oil, had a change last year last 9600 miles before reaching 5% as we were on the road constantly due to family deal out of state, but most come due around 5000 or so when we drive only locally. I do not change oil in my cars anymore, dealer will change, use Mobil 1 and rotate the tires for $60.00 and feed me a doughnut and couple cups of Kreuig Coffee.
I change bike engine @ 5K and use Mobil 1, Primary @ 5K using Redline Primary Fluid and trans @ 10K using Redline Trans. I still do the bike myself but I wouldn't if the dealer was not so messy. They did free change @ 1000 when I bought it and it came back with dripping oil from frame rails, bottom of bike. I exploded and wife said no more, you do it yourself. Dealer was probably glad after scene in service check-out area.
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Actually, back in the late 90's, when I was a Product Manager working a new series of off-road machine, we introduced a centrifugal filtration system in the hydraulic & transmission circuit. It was a canister containing a spinner that circulated the oil at a very high rate (rpm) and did an amazing job oil cleaning the oil. It was not revolutionary, but was innovative & unique in the industry & application. It completely replaced the industry-standard cartridge and/or replaceable element filter used by all the other (and us, to). Thousands of hours of dirty, high-temp use - and the oil would still be pristine.
Scuttled in the next generation of product a few years later. The Company and dealers couldn't stomach the loss of filter & lubricant sales!
Also...there was some risk/concern the centrifugal system worked SO good it would/could separate the vital oil additives (such as anti-chatter additives for the wet clutches & brakes).
But, technology DOES exist to get FAR more life from our lubricants.
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sorry im bad, i meant 5000 miles.
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Actually, back in the late 90's, when I was a Product Manager working a new series of off-road machine, we introduced a centrifugal filtration system in the hydraulic & transmission circuit. It was a canister containing a spinner that circulated the oil at a very high rate (rpm) and did an amazing job oil cleaning the oil. It was not revolutionary, but was innovative & unique in the industry & application. It completely replaced the industry-standard cartridge and/or replaceable element filter used by all the other (and us, to). Thousands of hours of dirty, high-temp use - and the oil would still be pristine.
Scuttled in the next generation of product a few years later. The Company and dealers couldn't stomach the loss of filter & lubricant sales!
Also...there was some risk/concern the centrifugal system worked SO good it would/could separate the vital oil additives (such as anti-chatter additives for the wet clutches & brakes).
But, technology DOES exist to get FAR more life from our lubricants.
That is what is known as a "lop"(lube oil purifier) in the marine field. It runs around 1700 rpm has various cone type cylinders that fit inside each other of different grading, "depending on specks" that remove any impurities from the oil and the waste would go into a holding tank . There is also the "Flop" (Fuel oil purifier) dose the same thing. The motors I worked with had a 250 gal sump so there was no oil change schedule
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Are you guys changing the fluids based solely on miles, or do you take into account the time? I'm not going to lie, my bikes have always been a pure luxury item, and have never seen 5,000 miles in one year. I have always changed all three fluids in early spring, every year. Is this overkill? Should I just enjoy it and when I hit 5k, do a fluid change?
I have always run Mobil 1, redline MTL, and redline shockproof heavy. I will probably be switching to Belray in the primary and trans based upon some input from this forum.
Thanks
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well us guys in the northland need to change every spring to be safe. you can get a lot of condensation unless you have heated storage thru the winter. have been amazed at how much water has come out of the tranny when changed in the spring. doubt if the warm weather guys need to worry
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Okay, I read this forum every day, I have seen the extensive amount of knowledge here - but I just so happened to be talking with the owner of a pretty reputable shop in southern wisconsin today and this topic came up. Here's what he said: "Change the oil every 2500 miles and the filter on every-other." This was followed by my "Of course you want guys to bring their bikes in 2x as often,..."
Thoughts anyone?
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Okay, I read this forum every day, I have seen the extensive amount of knowledge here - but I just so happened to be talking with the owner of a pretty reputable shop in southern wisconsin today and this topic came up. Here's what he said: "Change the oil every 2500 miles and the filter on every-other." This was followed by my "Of course you want guys to bring their bikes in 2x as often,..."
Thoughts anyone?
To be pentagonally cautious might as well just use 30w nondetergent and have it in the shop every 500 miles.
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Okay, I read this forum every day, I have seen the extensive amount of knowledge here - but I just so happened to be talking with the owner of a pretty reputable shop in southern wisconsin today and this topic came up. Here's what he said: "Change the oil every 2500 miles and the filter on every-other." This was followed by my "Of course you want guys to bring their bikes in 2x as often,..."
Thoughts anyone?
What I take away from that is that some people's definition of "reputable" must vary quite a bit from mine. That shop owner must either be in a time warp and still thinks it's 1955, or he is just ignorant. And btw, I drive by a Duke of Oil quick lube place nearly every day that also says on it's big sign out next to the highway that you should change oil every 3000 miles. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever as to the reason for that business owner to have that on his sign. If you want honest and unbiased information on how often to replace something, it is probably best to not ask the folks who make a living selling that item. In other words, ask the engineers and scientists, not the retailers.
Jerry
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I say Reputable in the fact that I've known him for years and have had several business transactions with him as well. It just so happens I am an Engineer who was riding dirt bikes before pedal bikes, and my Father when alive was schooled at BMW, including owning a couple motorcycle dealerships. This gentleman knows I'm very intelligent in regards to this, it was merely a conversation on his "opinion". I wasn't questioning his skill, as I know he is intelligent as well, but yes, he also has to make a $.
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Why wouldn't you change the filters anyways? Thy are not that expensive anyways. The modern day quality nationally branded oils will out live the drain intervals on the filters. The filters catches the crud that your oil keeps in suspension. As an owner of an oil analysis laboratory testing a lot of different fluids and everything from high end exotic cars, power generations assets, industrial equipment and HD offroad equipment you really cannot know the state of the oil or wear unless you perform oil analysis. I see a lot of premium synthetic lubricants that can be used long after they have been drained. Some actually spec out close to "new" oil. There are a few fleets of class 8 trucks running 80,000 - 100,000 miles on the engine oil. They bring the trucks in for a PM and new filters and send them right back out.
Oil threads of any type always get whacky from myths, know-it-alls, because my grandpa did it that way or I read it somewhere.
I change my primary and trans when the TAN (Total Acid Number) starts to increase. If there's a mechanical issue, it might warrant a fluid change due to contamination from the mechanical issue. Gear oils can run a very long time without needing to be changed. Engine oils will need to be changed more frequently because the the violent nature of the internal combustion engine. You have high heat, soot, fuel dilution, contaminants being introduced through the air intake and so on.
My nickels worth
Jason
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I don't even do that. Engine and primary at 5k. Any good transmission gear oil will live a lot longer. For me the tranny gets changed with the spring services in even numbered years or at about 25k miles. Even that is an abundance of caution. Just think how long that same oil just keeps going and going and going in the third members of our automobiles?
Why not change all 3 it's only a little oil and effort. It's easier to spot a problem if you check it often.
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There has been some good discussion and sharing of knowledge on this thread.
Now one on synthetic vis mineral oil, what is the opinion on using a synthetic oil opposed to a mineral oil in the CVOs? I know they come from the factory with syn3 in all holes. Is there a pacific reason WHY synthetic oil is in the CVOs and mineral oil is used in other none CVO Harley bikes.
Asking because I don't know the answer ::) Can one use a mineral oil in the CVOs :nixweiss:
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You can use a regular non-synthetic motor oil, but IMHO a good full synthetic is superior, especially at the higher operating temperatures found with the CVO110 engines. If you decide to follow your guy's recommendation of 2500 mile changes, then the non-syn would make sense. No need to spend more for the synthetic if you plan to throw it away long before it's worn out.
Jerry
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You can use a regular non-synthetic motor oil, but IMHO a good full synthetic is superior, especially at the higher operating temperatures found with the CVO110 engines. If you decide to follow your guy's recommendation of 2500 mile changes, then the non-syn would make sense. No need to spend more for the synthetic if you plan to throw it away long before it's worn out.
Jerry
...and if this path is chosen then plan to avoid ever getting caught in slow or stop-and-go traffic on a warm or hot day.
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The good nationally branded true full synthetics will remove heat faster and help the engine stay cooler. If your not running hot there no harm in a conventional. Without a doubt the synthetic oils are superior to the conventionals. With the minimal fluid that these bikes take, why not run full syn.
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Why wouldn't you change the filters anyways? Thy are not that expensive anyways. The modern day quality nationally branded oils will out live the drain intervals on the filters. The filters catches the crud that your oil keeps in suspension. As an owner of an oil analysis laboratory testing a lot of different fluids and everything from high end exotic cars, power generations assets, industrial equipment and HD offroad equipment you really cannot know the state of the oil or wear unless you perform oil analysis. I see a lot of premium synthetic lubricants that can be used long after they have been drained. Some actually spec out close to "new" oil. There are a few fleets of class 8 trucks running 80,000 - 100,000 miles on the engine oil. They bring the trucks in for a PM and new filters and send them right back out.
Oil threads of any type always get whacky from myths, know-it-alls, because my grandpa did it that way or I read it somewhere.
I change my primary and trans when the TAN (Total Acid Number) starts to increase. If there's a mechanical issue, it might warrant a fluid change due to contamination from the mechanical issue. Gear oils can run a very long time without needing to be changed. Engine oils will need to be changed more frequently because the the violent nature of the internal combustion engine. You have high heat, soot, fuel dilution, contaminants being introduced through the air intake and so on.
My nickels worth
Jason
Jason what does your mileage average on those changes, in the summer months?
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I do an engine oil change once a year. I.e. 10k mls. The primairy and the tranny every other year.
Now over 60k mls and no oil adding between the changes and a very healthy engine.
Bike is mostly used for longer distances. (In the Netherlands this means at least 100 mls)
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Jason what does your mileage average on those changes, in the summer months?
It varies depending on the amount of miles that I can put on. I don't put the miles on like I did before opening up the lab. When I do get on some miles I will run up to 7,000 miles but that's conservative and every oil & condition can change the rate of TAN increase. Excessive heat and a lot of bad and contaminated air getting past the air intake can increase that TAN and contamination more quickly. The higher performance and higher flow air filters will allow more particles and contaminates to enter the crankcase. We can detect silicon which is either an additive or dirt/dust in the oil. The additive aspect is typically a defoament. We can identify which is which with the type of particle counter that we use.
Sitting for long periods of time and over long winter storage will increase the TAN levels. That why you will see time/mileage recommended intervals.
With the mileage I'm running between the two bikes they typically get an oil change every spring when coming out of storage. I miss living in Southern California where I could ride every day. BTW I Use Mobil 1 in every vehicle I own and Red Line in the motorcycles. There's a lot of good oils out there. Stay away from most store brands. There's also a lot of oils out there labeled "Full Syn" when they are actually a Group III basestock which technically does not qualify as a Full Synthetic.
I recommend at least running a couple oil analysis on your components to get a baseline to decide where the ideal change time is. Since I keep my motorcycles longer than cars and trucks I tend to over maintain them.
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Thanks guys, I'm lubed up with a lot more oil knowledge for my drivetrain then I was a few days ago ;) :2vrolijk_21:
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It's not always just miles, it's time too. It is my belief that changing fluids more often than truly needed only costs a little more in time and $. I tend to spend a lot of money on my bikes, so I change fluids often. I can afford it and it makes me feel better.
Your mileage may vary. I change all three holes at least every 5000 miles. If for some odd reason I didn't get 5000 miles in on a particular bike in a year, I would change all the fluids anyway. I'm not making recommendations, just stating what I do.
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Okay, I read this forum every day, I have seen the extensive amount of knowledge here - but I just so happened to be talking with the owner of a pretty reputable shop in southern wisconsin today and this topic came up. Here's what he said: "Change the oil every 2500 miles and the filter on every-other." This was followed by my "Of course you want guys to bring their bikes in 2x as often,..."
Thoughts anyone?
Why run clean oil through a dirty filter? Back in the day, before synthetic oil, some people did the opposite by changing the filter twice as often as the oil.
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As an owner of an oil analysis laboratory testing a lot of different fluids and everything from high end exotic cars, power generations assets, industrial equipment and HD offroad equipment you really cannot know the state of the oil or wear unless you perform oil analysis.
do i see cvo discounts on uoa? :bananarock:
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Actually, back in the late 90's, when I was a Product Manager working a new series of off-road machine, we introduced a centrifugal filtration system in the hydraulic & transmission circuit. It was a canister containing a spinner that circulated the oil at a very high rate (rpm) and did an amazing job oil cleaning the oil. It was not revolutionary, but was innovative & unique in the industry & application. It completely replaced the industry-standard cartridge and/or replaceable element filter used by all the other (and us, to). Thousands of hours of dirty, high-temp use - and the oil would still be pristine.
Scuttled in the next generation of product a few years later. The Company and dealers couldn't stomach the loss of filter & lubricant sales!
Also...there was some risk/concern the centrifugal system worked SO good it would/could separate the vital oil additives (such as anti-chatter additives for the wet clutches & brakes).
But, technology DOES exist to get FAR more life from our lubricants.
Where I work now we have a fleet of over 400 buses, we use to use that type of spinner filter butafter some extensive testing we found they wernt any good in our applicstion because our average speed was 20 mph. They'd probably work better at high speed driving. We switched everything over to "Eco-Microfilter" which is a low psi fed 4Micron filter. Our results after double mileage drain that the chem pack degradation was less than 2% of new oil with almist 100% remival of large danaging size particles.
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do i see cvo discounts on uoa? :bananarock:
Please send me a PM. This is not a solicitation to make revenue and skirt advertising/marketing. I will Offer CVO members testing at my cost for consumables and labor.
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3000 to 5000
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I ride 20,000 plus every year. I have been changing at 5k to 6k since my 1000 mile service. The bike has 93,000 miles on it and still does not use any oil. Ride safe guys. ;D