www.CVOHARLEY.com
CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: HogBreath on January 01, 2009, 09:22:19 AM
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I stumbled across these videos from Revolution Performance. Helped me to understand what's going on with these crankshafts.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2120272/trueing_harley_davidson_crankshafts_part_one_of_four/
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Part 2
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2146089/trueing_harley_davidson_crankshafts_part_two_of_four/
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Part 3
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2178410/trueing_harley_davidson_crankshafts_part_three_of_four/
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Part 4
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2186101/trueing_harley_davidson_crankshafts_part_four_of_four/
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Here's part 4
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2186101/trueing_harley_davidson_crankshafts_part_four_of_four/
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Good find. Hopefully he will elaborate more on the crankshaft issues in upcoming podcasts.
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Interesting, I enjoyed that.
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I stumbled across these videos from Revolution Performance. Helped me to understand what's going on with these crankshafts.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2120272/trueing_harley_davidson_crankshafts_part_one_of_four/
Fantastic explanations, it cleared up some misinformation that I had held to be true.
good find Ken
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Very interesting, thanks for posting and sharing :2vrolijk_21:
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Great, Thanks!
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A four part podcast that is concise, informative and to the point.:2vrolijk_21:..would have been nice.
djkak
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would have been nice.
djkak
Have to admit thinking a script writer could have made that four parter a one part presentation :huepfenlol2: .
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Have to admit thinking a script writer could have made that four parter a one part presentation :huepfenlol2: .
Yup…it’s the proper planning thing. :wall:
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Yup…it’s the proper planning thing. :wall:
Quit making me laugh. I was up late this morning and have to go to bed soon :huepfenlol2: .
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Quit making me laugh. I was up late this morning and have to go to bed soon :huepfenlol2: .
I’m working on SPIDERMAN for a promotion. It’s a bugger having to pound the ether on a night shift like this for a laugh….but thanks….every little bit helps. :jester:
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I actually typed a negative review of this podcast yesterday, but decided not to hit the "post" button because I didn't want to offend anyone who thought it was good. Well, that resolution about trying to be less offensive and negative lasted for an entire day, and I've decided that's enough change for now. Besides, dj and 2lane already broke the ice. ;)
It doesn't take over 30 minutes to explain that the new style drive side shaft isn't machined on centers and therefore cannot be checked or trued in an old style truing stand. There, I just said it in a few seconds without wasting a ton of bandwidth. It would have been nice if the gentleman in the podcast had actually done the video out in the shop with the truing stand and the fixture they rigged up with V-blocks to illustrate the differences. As they say, a picture is worth a whole bunch of words.
After roughly 36 minutes, assuming anyone made it entirely through the series, did anyone find that they now understand why the new cranks had/have such poor quality in terms of runout? The description of building the old cranks in a truing stand environment has not been true since the Twin Cam was introduced, so if the pressed together system worked fairly well from 1999 through 2006 why did it go straight to hell in 2007? That's the kind of information, along with the best method to permanently fix the problem, that would be informative and helpful. I kept hoping the next part of the podcast would move on to discuss the real issue and the fix, but by part 3 of 4 I pretty much figured out this was going to be like Donny Petersen's article on the 110 in American Iron. Lots of words, no real substance.
Jerry
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I actually typed a negative review of this podcast yesterday, but decided not to hit the "post" button because I didn't want to offend anyone who thought it was good. Well, that resolution about trying to be less offensive and negative lasted for an entire day, and I've decided that's enough change for now. Besides, dj and 2lane already broke the ice. ;)
It doesn't take over 30 minutes to explain that the new style drive side shaft isn't machined on centers and therefore cannot be checked or trued in an old style truing stand. There, I just said it in a few seconds without wasting a ton of bandwidth. It would have been nice if the gentleman in the podcast had actually done the video out in the shop with the truing stand and the fixture they rigged up with V-blocks to illustrate the differences. As they say, a picture is worth a whole bunch of words.
After roughly 36 minutes, assuming anyone made it entirely through the series, did anyone find that they now understand why the new cranks had/have such poor quality in terms of runout? The description of building the old cranks in a truing stand environment has not been true since the Twin Cam was introduced, so if the pressed together system worked fairly well from 1999 through 2006 why did it go straight to hell in 2007? That's the kind of information, along with the best method to permanently fix the problem, that would be informative and helpful. I kept hoping the next part of the podcast would move on to discuss the real issue and the fix, but by part 3 of 4 I pretty much figured out this was going to be like Donny Petersen's article on the 110 in American Iron. Lots of words, no real substance.
Jerry
I'll go along with that! It was OK if you knew pretty much nothing about flywheels at all. But I was looking for the meat as Jerry was, not the potatoes and vegetables! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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Well said Jerry - spot on. Unfortunately no 'actionable' info presented. Guess that's their little secret and why we should send our cranks to them?
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Have to admit thinking a script writer could have made that four parter a one part presentation :huepfenlol2: .
DON read the heading for this thread!!!!!!!! Now you know why it took four parts to plain this to the everyday Harley owner!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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DON read the heading for this thread!!!!!!!! Now you know why it took four parts to plain this to the everyday Harley owner!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
Not really Mike. Wasn't even that it was supposedly a remedial presentation. It just wasn't very good.
Assertions that were left open to significant interpretation. Lots of redundancy. Quite a bit that was useless to the topic itself and simply didn't need to be there. You don't judge the oral presentation itself because the guy isn't professing to be a paid speaker but is a machinist talking to folks. That being so, however, there were things he suggested as fact that left me scratching my head a little. And I'm just a layman. Jerry or DJ probably caught a little irritable bowel syndrome from the effort.
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Not really Mike. Wasn't even that it was supposedly a remedial presentation. It just wasn't very good.
Assertions that were left open to significant interpretation. Lots of redundancy. Quite a bit that was useless to the topic itself and simply didn't need to be there. You don't judge the oral presentation itself because the guy isn't professing to be a paid speaker but is a machinist talking to folks. That being so, however, there were things he suggested as fact that left me scratching my head a little. And I'm just a layman. Jerry or DJ probably caught a little irritable bowel syndrome from the effort.
And lots, and lots, and lots!!! :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: ;D ;)
Hoist! 8)
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I actually typed a negative review of this podcast yesterday, but decided not to hit the "post" button because I didn't want to offend anyone who thought it was good. Well, that resolution about trying to be less offensive and negative lasted for an entire day, and I've decided that's enough change for now. Besides, dj and 2lane already broke the ice. ;)
It doesn't take over 30 minutes to explain that the new style drive side shaft isn't machined on centers and therefore cannot be checked or trued in an old style truing stand. There, I just said it in a few seconds without wasting a ton of bandwidth. It would have been nice if the gentleman in the podcast had actually done the video out in the shop with the truing stand and the fixture they rigged up with V-blocks to illustrate the differences. As they say, a picture is worth a whole bunch of words.
After roughly 36 minutes, assuming anyone made it entirely through the series, did anyone find that they now understand why the new cranks had/have such poor quality in terms of runout? The description of building the old cranks in a truing stand environment has not been true since the Twin Cam was introduced, so if the pressed together system worked fairly well from 1999 through 2006 why did it go straight to hell in 2007? That's the kind of information, along with the best method to permanently fix the problem, that would be informative and helpful. I kept hoping the next part of the podcast would move on to discuss the real issue and the fix, but by part 3 of 4 I pretty much figured out this was going to be like Donny Petersen's article on the 110 in American Iron. Lots of words, no real substance.
Jerry
My money is on the changes to the ‘07 powertrain as the root source of the crankshaft issues beginning in ‘07. http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=30766.msg503390#msg503390.
Manufacturing issues with the ’07 crankshaft would be an easier answer, but H-D’s efforts to reduce crankshaft shock load, together with improved reliability are a strong indication of an overload condition rather than a manufacturing issue. JMHO.
Speaking of reduced load, has anyone seen the accessory comp sprocket? This thing is robust! I’m thinking that together with installing one on my machine, I’m going to pick up another one, put a chain through the center and wear it around my neck. Hopefully this will reduce my stress load. :) I thought about Prozac, but I’m not ready for the heavyweight stuff, and they don’t make amateurzac so this seems like a reasonable compromise.
djkak
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My money is on the changes to the ‘07 powertrain as the root source of the crankshaft issues beginning in ‘07. http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=30766.msg503390#msg503390.
Manufacturing issues with the ’07 crankshaft would be an easier answer, but H-D’s efforts to reduce crankshaft shock load, together with improved reliability are a strong indication of an overload condition rather than a manufacturing issue. JMHO.
Speaking of reduced load, has anyone seen the accessory comp sprocket? This thing is robust! I’m thinking that together with installing one on my machine, I’m going to pick up another one, put a chain through the center and wear it around my neck. Hopefully this will reduce my stress load. :) I thought about Prozac, but I’m not ready for the heavyweight stuff, and they don’t make amateurzac so this seems like a reasonable compromise.
djkak
I got one for my bike, but never really considered another for jewelry though! Like a Biker Rapper's Big Ole Gold Chain replacement? :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: ;D ;D ;D
Healthy and Happy New Year to ya dj!!! :drink: :drink: :drink: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Hoist! 8)
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I got one for my bike, but never really considered another for jewelry though! Like a Biker Rapper's Big Ole Gold Chain replacement? :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: ;D ;D ;D
Healthy and Happy New Year to ya dj!!! :drink: :drink: :drink: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Hoist! 8)
Sounds like a Photoshop opportunity. :sneaky: :evilgrin:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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I got one for my bike, but never really considered another for jewelry though! Like a Biker Rapper's Big Ole Gold Chain replacement? :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: ;D ;D ;D
Healthy and Happy New Year to ya dj!!! :drink: :drink: :drink: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Hoist! 8)
Thanks, Hoist; same to you and the rest of the gang here.
It turns out that my new Bling goes together very well with a splash of Oil of Har-lay. You might want to try it next time you go into the city for a night out. :)
djkak
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Thanks, Hoist; same to you and the rest of the gang here.
It turns out that my new Bling goes together very well with a splash of Oil of Har-lay. You might want to try it next time you go into the city for a night out. :)
djkak
HeHe!!! I'm allergic to TOILET Water!!! I prefer the REAL thing! ;D ;)
Hoist! 8)
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Not really Mike. Wasn't even that it was supposedly a remedial presentation. It just wasn't very good.
Assertions that were left open to significant interpretation. Lots of redundancy. Quite a bit that was useless to the topic itself and simply didn't need to be there. You don't judge the oral presentation itself because the guy isn't professing to be a paid speaker but is a machinist talking to folks. That being so, however, there were things he suggested as fact that left me scratching my head a little. And I'm just a layman. Jerry or DJ probably caught a little irritable bowel syndrome from the effort.
At first I thought it was the jalapeños. :) After finishing part four I was a little stunned to see that they didn’t throw us a bone, much less a few crumbs. The podcast revealed more about their operation than it did about the press together crankshaft; a tactical error IMHO.
djkak
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Thanks, I got a lot out of this. Send more!!
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thanks for posting that...rev perfromance is a great outfit, other than their nikasil cylinders...another option is the folks I bought my heads from...r&r cycle in manchester, nh...they have 5-piece twin cam cranks up to 4.75 stroke...can you imagine the torque with that long-arm?
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thanks for posting that...rev perfromance is a great outfit, other than their nikasil cylinders...another option is the folks I bought my heads from...r&r cycle in manchester, nh...they have 5-piece twin cam cranks up to 4.75 stroke...can you imagine the torque with that long-arm?
HeHe!!! And imagine how much chit I can break with a leg that big with these bores?!!! :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:
Almost as much chit as with a 5" S&S leg in an Evo!!! ;D ;D ;D
Hoist! 8)
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I'll agree the guy said the same thing over and over. But, if you'd never even seen the crankshaft out of a HD......I found it interesting. I'm not an engine builder or a mechanic, nor do I ever intend or want to be. And though I've been around machine tools, lathes, milling machines etc, and even own a couple of antique machines, I'm not a machinist. The way the two halves of the crank are pressed together, I don't see how they could EVER be expected to run true. But obviously they have. :nixweiss: . If I was in charge of an engne build, I think I'd insist the crank was trued and welded.
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......................... If I was in charge of an engne build, I think I'd insist the crank was trued and welded.
Most definitely! However, what if you don't plan on opening up the bottom end, which is the case with the vast majority of us? Harley owes us a stock crank that runs true and doesn't trash the oil pump or itself. I doubt we will ever see them weld the crankpin in production, but there are other ways to make the part nearly bulletproof. My contention is that for something this important they need to quit playing the "How Cheap Can We Go" game and just do it right.
Jerry
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Most definitely! However, what if you don't plan on opening up the bottom end, which is the case with the vast majority of us? Harley owes us a stock crank that runs true and doesn't trash the oil pump or itself. I doubt we will ever see them weld the crankpin in production, but there are other ways to make the part nearly bulletproof. My contention is that for something this important they need to quit playing the "How Cheap Can We Go" game and just do it right.
Jerry
Jerry I say this with all sincerity.. I wish you would take this - Any of you guys want this job? (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=31257.0) It's obvious that none of us mind (well we do it anyway) spending money to get our bikes right, sure would be nice if we had somebody at a top level in the MoCo that wanted the same thing. :2vrolijk_21:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Most definitely! However, what if you don't plan on opening up the bottom end, which is the case with the vast majority of us? Harley owes us a stock crank that runs true and doesn't trash the oil pump or itself. I doubt we will ever see them weld the crankpin in production, but there are other ways to make the part nearly bulletproof. My contention is that for something this important they need to quit playing the "How Cheap Can We Go" game and just do it right.
Jerry
Jerry..... I really haven't read every thread or posting that deals with the crankshafts. For someone that has and finds it to be a problem, maybe you could comment on how many reported crank failures there have been on stock motors? Tell me how yours went bad and what was the damage?
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Really haven't read every thread or posting that deals with the crankshafts. For someone that has and finds it to be a problem, maybe they could comment on how many crank failures there have been on stock motors? Jerry ..... tell me how yours went bad and what was the damage?
I recently rebuilt a 2005 88" road glide with 16K on the clock that had .038" runout. Pump was trashed etc, etc.... Motor was stock except for pipes ,AC, and download. The owner of the bike beat the crap out of. Burnouts, wheelies, etc. I have also personally seen other engines with twisted cranks, broken gear drives, shattered tranny gears and other abuse related damage. The point here is that these engines cannot handle they power that they produce even in stock form when they are abused and in some (although rare) cases when they are not abused.
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The way the two halves of the crank are pressed together, I don't see how they could EVER be expected to run true.
Ken, it's just amazing what a good machinist can do with super glue and a plumb bob.
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I recently rebuilt a 2005 88" road glide with 16K on the clock that had .038" runout. Pump was trashed etc, etc.... Motor was stock except for pipes ,AC, and download. The owner of the bike beat the crap out of. Burnouts, wheelies, etc. I have also personally seen other engines with twisted cranks, broken gear drives, shattered tranny gears and other abuse related damage. The point here is that these engines cannot handle they power that they produce even in stock form when they are abused and in some (although rare) cases when they are not abused.
Good perspective, Jim. The whole subject had me a little confused after talking to a couple of Service Mgs. who are close friends and collectively have a couple thousand 07 and newer bikes out. They were on the same page as you with the abuse factor, half-a$$ed builds and riders with zero sense or ability when it comes to aggressively using a motor. Biggest problem they noted was people spending several thousand bucks on the top end with no regard to the bottom of the motor. Guess I'm old school, but when building a hot rod motor I start with the crank as a foundation and build my way up.....
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I recently rebuilt a 2005 88" road glide with 16K on the clock that had .038" runout. Pump was trashed etc, etc.... Motor was stock except for pipes ,AC, and download. The owner of the bike beat the crap out of. Burnouts, wheelies, etc. I have also personally seen other engines with twisted cranks, broken gear drives, shattered tranny gears and other abuse related damage. The point here is that these engines cannot handle they power that they produce even in stock form when they are abused and in some (although rare) cases when they are not abused.
I know of two that scissored and one bearing (non Timken) failure. Two were run hard. One was not. The bearing failure was an 05 Ultra. Both scissored cranks were the newer version.
Even if the failure is statistically rare that it is more than statistically insignificant has to give one pause. Anecdotally from the membership here there are reports of at least six other scissored cranks and at least a dozen lower end rebuilds or engine replacement due to excessive run out (at least two I kept track of and noted after the spec was changed).
Statistically small? Yes. Insignicant? No. And if not insignificant then it is significant. That being so I find it hard to disagree with Jerry here. Some places a manufacturer can look for ways to cut a corner. Overall less expense benefits both the manufacture and the consumer. Crankshafts and other absolutely mission/safety critical components aren't one of those places though.
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Vern's seen his share too. I don't think we need to debate whether the current design is a POS or not! It is, and we all know it!!! But as far as HD is concerned, they feel it can adequately handle bone stock EPA 60 HP motors OK. Less failure rates, but still some. Don't ask me WTH they were thinking using them in 103 and 110 CVO's though!!! That's completely ludicrous and excessively cheap on their part, when your talking about these higher output, larger displacement motors in your flagship vehicles! STF! STF! STF! ;)
Hoist! 8)
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Ken, it's just amazing what a good machinist can do with super glue and a plumb bob.
And 16 penny double headed nails and vice grips.
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Most definitely! However, what if you don't plan on opening up the bottom end, which is the case with the vast majority of us? Harley owes us a stock crank that runs true and doesn't trash the oil pump or itself. I doubt we will ever see them weld the crankpin in production, but there are other ways to make the part nearly bulletproof. My contention is that for something this important they need to quit playing the "How Cheap Can We Go" game and just do it right.
Jerry
Jerry....I totally agree. how could I possibly disagree? Yep, in my opinion HD owes us a sotck crank that runs true. They charged us for one to begin with. But they don't make a good crank and don't pay for it. If we keep these bikes, we simply fix them and ride on.
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At 16,000 miles I was on my second head gasket problem. I insisted on checking the crank runout, althoughn the dealer didn't think it was necessary. .016". Within HD spec, but not mine or the dealers. Installed a Jim's engine. Bottom line, when I was finished I spent an additional $9,000 on a $35,000 bike that was 1-1/2 years old. Oh, and I didn't abuse it. Rode it??...Hell yes, but didn't abuse it.
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At 16,000 miles I was on my second head gasket problem. I insisted on checking the crank runout, althoughn the dealer didn't think it was necessary. .016". Within HD spec, but not mine or the dealers. Installed a Jim's engine. Bottom line, when I was finished I spent an additional $9,000 on a $35,000 bike that was 1-1/2 years old. Oh, and I didn't abuse it. Rode it??...Hell yes, but didn't abuse it.
HD spec is 0.012" Ken! That's why you got a new motor! ;)
And don't worry, I abused it for you!!! ;D ;D ;D
HNY to you and Cheri, ya Redneck!!! :drink: :drink: :drink: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:
Hoist! 8)
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HD spec is 0.012" Ken! That's why you got a new motor! ;)
And don't worry, I abused it for you!!! ;D ;D ;D
HNY to you and Cheri, ya Redneck!!! :drink: :drink: :drink: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:
Hoist! 8)
I thought their latest spec was "no spec"?? Hey..what do I know? I just twist the throttle.
HNY to you and Binxy too ya Hummer sticking, sand digging, non driving, city slicker. ;D
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I thought their latest spec was "no spec"?? Hey..what do I know? I just twist the throttle.
HNY to you and Binxy too ya Hummer sticking, sand digging, non driving, city slicker. ;D
YEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!! :drink: :drink: :drink: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:
Hoist! 8)