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Author Topic: Crank Shafts For Dummies  (Read 9162 times)

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HogBreath

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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2009, 07:37:18 AM »

I'll agree the guy said the same thing over and over. But, if you'd never even seen the crankshaft out of a HD......I found it interesting. I'm not an engine builder or a mechanic, nor do I ever intend or want to be. And though I've been around machine tools, lathes, milling machines etc, and even own a couple of antique machines, I'm not a machinist. The way the two halves of the crank are pressed together, I don't see how they could EVER be expected to run true. But obviously they have.  :nixweiss: . If I was in charge of an engne build, I think I'd insist the crank was trued and welded.
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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2009, 09:43:31 AM »

......................... If I was in charge of an engne build, I think I'd insist the crank was trued and welded.

Most definitely!  However, what if you don't plan on opening up the bottom end, which is the case with the vast majority of us?  Harley owes us a stock crank that runs true and doesn't trash the oil pump or itself.  I doubt we will ever see them weld the crankpin in production, but there are other ways to make the part nearly bulletproof.  My contention is that for something this important they need to quit playing the "How Cheap Can We Go" game and just do it right. 

Jerry
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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2009, 10:02:43 AM »

Most definitely!  However, what if you don't plan on opening up the bottom end, which is the case with the vast majority of us?  Harley owes us a stock crank that runs true and doesn't trash the oil pump or itself.  I doubt we will ever see them weld the crankpin in production, but there are other ways to make the part nearly bulletproof.  My contention is that for something this important they need to quit playing the "How Cheap Can We Go" game and just do it right. 

Jerry
Jerry I say this with all sincerity.. I wish you would take this - Any of you guys want this job? It's obvious that none of us mind (well we do it anyway) spending money to get our bikes right, sure would be nice if we had somebody at a top level in the MoCo that wanted the same thing. :2vrolijk_21:

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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2009, 11:36:57 AM »

Most definitely!  However, what if you don't plan on opening up the bottom end, which is the case with the vast majority of us?  Harley owes us a stock crank that runs true and doesn't trash the oil pump or itself.  I doubt we will ever see them weld the crankpin in production, but there are other ways to make the part nearly bulletproof.  My contention is that for something this important they need to quit playing the "How Cheap Can We Go" game and just do it right. 

Jerry

Jerry..... I really haven't read every thread or posting that deals with the crankshafts.  For someone that has and finds it to be a problem, maybe you could comment on how many reported crank failures there have been on stock motors?  Tell me how yours went bad and what was the damage?
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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2009, 11:38:08 AM »

Really haven't read every thread or posting that deals with the crankshafts.  For someone that has and finds it to be a problem, maybe they could comment on how many crank failures there have been on stock motors?   Jerry ..... tell me how yours went bad and what was the damage?

I recently rebuilt a 2005 88" road glide with 16K on the clock that had .038" runout. Pump was trashed etc, etc.... Motor was stock except for pipes ,AC, and download. The owner of the bike beat the crap out of. Burnouts, wheelies, etc. I have also personally seen other engines with twisted cranks, broken gear drives, shattered tranny gears and other abuse related damage. The point here is that these engines cannot handle they power that they produce even in stock form when they are abused and in some (although rare) cases when they are not abused.

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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2009, 11:49:02 AM »


The way the two halves of the crank are pressed together, I don't see how they could EVER be expected to run true.



Ken, it's just amazing what a good machinist can do with super glue and a plumb bob.
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BLM777

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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2009, 11:58:17 AM »

I recently rebuilt a 2005 88" road glide with 16K on the clock that had .038" runout. Pump was trashed etc, etc.... Motor was stock except for pipes ,AC, and download. The owner of the bike beat the crap out of. Burnouts, wheelies, etc. I have also personally seen other engines with twisted cranks, broken gear drives, shattered tranny gears and other abuse related damage. The point here is that these engines cannot handle they power that they produce even in stock form when they are abused and in some (although rare) cases when they are not abused.

Good perspective, Jim.  The whole subject had me a little confused after talking to a couple of Service Mgs. who are close friends and collectively have a couple thousand 07 and newer bikes out.  They were on the same page as you with the abuse factor, half-a$$ed builds and riders with zero sense or ability when it comes to aggressively using a motor.  Biggest problem they noted was people spending several thousand bucks on the top end with no regard to the bottom of the motor.  Guess I'm old school, but when building a hot rod motor I start with the crank as a foundation and build my way up.....
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Twolanerider

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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2009, 11:59:25 AM »

I recently rebuilt a 2005 88" road glide with 16K on the clock that had .038" runout. Pump was trashed etc, etc.... Motor was stock except for pipes ,AC, and download. The owner of the bike beat the crap out of. Burnouts, wheelies, etc. I have also personally seen other engines with twisted cranks, broken gear drives, shattered tranny gears and other abuse related damage. The point here is that these engines cannot handle they power that they produce even in stock form when they are abused and in some (although rare) cases when they are not abused.

I know of two that scissored and one bearing (non Timken) failure.  Two were run hard.  One was not.  The bearing failure was an 05 Ultra.  Both scissored cranks were the newer version.

Even if the failure is statistically rare that it is more than statistically insignificant has to give one pause.  Anecdotally from the membership here there are reports of at least six other scissored cranks and at least a dozen lower end rebuilds or engine replacement due to excessive run out (at least two I kept track of and noted after the spec was changed).

Statistically small?  Yes.  Insignicant?  No.  And if not insignificant then it is significant.  That being so I find it hard to disagree with Jerry here.  Some places a manufacturer can look for ways to cut a corner.  Overall less expense benefits both the manufacture and the consumer.  Crankshafts and other absolutely mission/safety critical components aren't one of those places though.
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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2009, 12:06:58 PM »

Vern's seen his share too. I don't think we need to debate whether the current design is a POS or not! It is, and we all know it!!! But as far as HD is concerned, they feel it can adequately handle bone stock EPA 60 HP motors OK. Less failure rates, but still some. Don't ask me WTH they were thinking using them in 103 and 110 CVO's though!!! That's completely ludicrous and excessively cheap on their part, when your talking about these higher output, larger displacement motors in your flagship vehicles! STF! STF! STF! ;)

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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2009, 12:45:25 PM »


Ken, it's just amazing what a good machinist can do with super glue and a plumb bob.

And 16 penny double headed nails and vice grips.
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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2009, 12:50:06 PM »

Most definitely!  However, what if you don't plan on opening up the bottom end, which is the case with the vast majority of us?  Harley owes us a stock crank that runs true and doesn't trash the oil pump or itself.  I doubt we will ever see them weld the crankpin in production, but there are other ways to make the part nearly bulletproof.  My contention is that for something this important they need to quit playing the "How Cheap Can We Go" game and just do it right. 

Jerry

Jerry....I totally agree. how could I possibly disagree? Yep, in my opinion HD owes us a sotck crank that runs true. They charged us for one to begin with. But they don't make a good crank and don't pay for it. If we keep these bikes, we simply fix them and ride on.
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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2009, 12:53:24 PM »

At 16,000 miles I was on my second head gasket problem. I insisted on checking the crank runout, althoughn the dealer didn't think it was necessary. .016". Within HD spec, but not mine or the dealers. Installed a Jim's engine. Bottom line, when I was finished I spent an additional $9,000 on a $35,000 bike that was 1-1/2 years old. Oh, and I didn't abuse it. Rode it??...Hell yes, but didn't abuse it.
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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2009, 12:56:59 PM »

At 16,000 miles I was on my second head gasket problem. I insisted on checking the crank runout, althoughn the dealer didn't think it was necessary. .016". Within HD spec, but not mine or the dealers. Installed a Jim's engine. Bottom line, when I was finished I spent an additional $9,000 on a $35,000 bike that was 1-1/2 years old. Oh, and I didn't abuse it. Rode it??...Hell yes, but didn't abuse it.

HD spec is 0.012" Ken! That's why you got a new motor! ;)

And don't worry, I abused it for you!!! ;D ;D ;D

HNY to you and Cheri, ya Redneck!!! :drink: :drink: :drink: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2009, 01:05:54 PM »

HD spec is 0.012" Ken! That's why you got a new motor! ;)

And don't worry, I abused it for you!!! ;D ;D ;D

HNY to you and Cheri, ya Redneck!!! :drink: :drink: :drink: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:

Hoist! 8)

I thought their latest spec was "no spec"?? Hey..what do I know? I just twist the throttle.

HNY to you and Binxy too ya Hummer sticking, sand digging, non driving, city slicker.  ;D
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Re: Crank Shafts For Dummies
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2009, 01:07:54 PM »

I thought their latest spec was "no spec"?? Hey..what do I know? I just twist the throttle.

HNY to you and Binxy too ya Hummer sticking, sand digging, non driving, city slicker.  ;D


YEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!! :drink: :drink: :drink: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:

Hoist! 8)
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