Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tall drink of water]

Has anyone heard of replacing 110 with a Milwaukee Eight motor. I have a 2015 CVO RGU. Since Harley doesn't seem to believe CVO RGU is a bike to build.

[VaEagle]

I have not heard of this swap being done yet. My guess is it's too soon of a motor to have many donor motors available from used bikes and hard to get ahold of a factory fresh spare motor too.
My father always told me not to buy any first year vehicle with major changes such as a motor etc. so I would  not be the "test dummy". So I personally would wait until all the bugs get worked out first.......

[r0de_runr]

So I personally would wait until all the bugs get worked out first.......

Now that is funny right thar.

[ultrafxr]

Now that is funny right thar.

Doubt he meant it to be funny but it is.  Waited ten long years for the moco to work out the bugs in the 110 and even longer for the entire twinkie platform.  Guess they just gave up and said ***k it but we their loyal customers are the ones who got the shaft.

[grc]

Doubt he meant it to be funny but it is.  Waited ten long years for the moco to work out the bugs in the 110 and even longer for the entire twinkie platform.  Guess they just gave up and said ***k it but we their loyal customers are the ones who got the shaft.

     Every time someone makes a comment about waiting for Harley to get the bugs out, I either roll my eyes, quietly shake my head, or sometimes break out laughing.  There is a secret to "getting the bugs out" that Harley has never learned.  First, you have to understand you have bugs.  Then you have to actually give a chit about eliminating those bugs.  Finally, you have to spend the time and money to fix it, versus the usual "ignore it and maybe it will go away" response.  Even though I'm not from Missouri, Harley management will have to show me before I'll ever believe they care about customers.

Jerry

[VaEagle]

OK I guess I should have said "most of the bugs found" vs. all the bugs being fixed. 
Thinking back on the past I remember early problems with the EVO and over time it became a reliable motor, then first year or two problems with the Twin Cam then it became more dependable until the 110 came out and first year issues with that motor.
I do hate the attitude of "They all do that" or having to buy the Screamin Eagle upgrade kit to fix a known problem, why doesn't it come with improved parts to begin with? I know they get money on parts and service so no incentive to do it right the first time.

[KGB]

   Every time someone makes a comment about waiting for Harley to get the bugs out, I either roll my eyes, quietly shake my head, or sometimes break out laughing.  There is a secret to "getting the bugs out" that Harley has never learned.  First, you have to understand you have bugs.  Then you have to actually give a chit about eliminating those bugs.  Finally, you have to spend the time and money to fix it, versus the usual "ignore it and maybe it will go away" response.  Even though I'm not from Missouri, Harley management will have to show me before I'll ever believe they care about customers.

Jerry

You would think they would want to jump on the problem that Harleytacticalnut was having so people on this forum and others would say wow look at that customer service! But from what I have experienced and witnessed in this forum and in person, I agree they don't care, at some point in time it will catch up with them,  IMHO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[barrhill]

ya they do make a motor for that its a S&S 124lc

[FLSTFI Dave]

My father always told me not to buy any first year vehicle with major changes such as a motor etc. so I would  not be the "test dummy". So I personally would wait until all the bugs get worked out first.......

Like they did with the 110?  Seems they still have failed lifters, 9 years into production.....

[J.D.]

Their strategy seems to be "let's find all the parts that have no significant issues and make/source them cheaper".

[HighOnHD]

Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again.

   Every time someone makes a comment about waiting for Harley to get the bugs out, I either roll my eyes, quietly shake my head, or sometimes break out laughing.  There is a secret to "getting the bugs out" that Harley has never learned.  First, you have to understand you have bugs.  Then you have to actually give a chit about eliminating those bugs.  Finally, you have to spend the time and money to fix it, versus the usual "ignore it and maybe it will go away" response.  Even though I'm not from Missouri, Harley management will have to show me before I'll ever believe they care about customers.

Jerry

So are you talking about the time and money that was spent paying for all of the engineering and re-tooling  necessary for the new engine? Does that count? Oh I forgot. The Engineers and the rest of the employees at HD (according to you) couldn’t possibly be paid very much because they are just idiots!
Also, why would HD spend all the time, expense, and labor on the resigned engine when according to some all they needed to do to make the 110 bullet proof was put in some better lifters and springs, and quit putting in the cheap stuff? Wow. I guess those penny pinchers at HD management really must have been sleeping on the job to allow those engineers to spend all that money!

You know maybe HD should just solve all their problems and hire you GRC! You obviously have ALL of the answers!

BTW. Don’t you think it is about time that you change your little score below your signature? How about being honest and change the current score to love 0, hate 100, bewildered 0. Someone who knows everything couldn’t possibly be bewildered.

Cheers.

[DICKW]

ya they do make a motor for that its a S&S 124lc

This 

[charles05663]

Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again.


So are you talking about the time and money that was spent paying for all of the engineering and re-tooling  necessary for the new engine? Does that count? Oh I forgot. The Engineers and the rest of the employees at HD (according to you) couldn’t possibly be paid very much because they are just idiots!
Also, why would HD spend all the time, expense, and labor on the resigned engine when according to some all they needed to do to make the 110 bullet proof was put in some better lifters and springs, and quit putting in the cheap stuff? Wow. I guess those penny pinchers at HD management really must have been sleeping on the job to allow those engineers to spend all that money!

You know maybe HD should just solve all their problems and hire you GRC! You obviously have ALL of the answers!

BTW. Don’t you think it is about time that you change your little score below your signature? How about being honest and change the current score to love 0, hate 100, bewildered 0. Someone who knows everything couldn’t possibly be bewildered.

Cheers.

Three letters...EPA

The 110 could not meet current EPA emissions standards and needed to be redesigned to reduce emissions.  They did this by lowering the head temps to reduce pollutants.

 

I also think that it has been proven by other third party vendors that the 110 can be made reliable.  I think HD did a cost analysis and figured they could make more money by tricking customers into fixing the problems then doing it right.  I am sure they make quite a pretty penny selling the "improved" SE parts.

[HighOnHD]

Three letters...EPA

The 110 could not meet current EPA emissions standards and needed to be redesigned to reduce emissions.  They did this by lowering the head temps to reduce pollutants.

 

I also think that it has been proven by other third party vendors that the 110 can be made reliable.  I think HD did a cost analysis and figured they could make more money by tricking customers into fixing the problems then doing it right.  I am sure they make quite a pretty penny selling the "improved" SE parts.

I would not say the EPA is not a PITA for HD but sorry I don't buy the EPA "head temp" argument. In my opinion here's why. The twin cooled heads according to the very same aftermarket experts now have stable temps. So in all actuality HD who BTW actually has all of the data and stats on the head and valve train issues obviously knew they had to do a redesign! Otherwise those "all powerful bean counters" would have won out and spent the easy money on the so called simple fix of replacing lifters and springs to make it bullet proof. Instead they spent time and money and did what needed to be done.

[ultrarider123]

Has anyone heard of replacing 110 with a Milwaukee Eight motor. I have a 2015 CVO RGU. Since Harley doesn't seem to believe CVO RGU is a bike to build.

Hey Tall, with your thread going South so quickly, I'm betting you may be rethinking asking that question now, huh......

Good golly fellers, all ol' Tall wanted was to know if swapping out a twin cam to M8 has been done yet.  Y'all turned it into the MoCo ain't got no engineers or bean counters run the place or which is a better motor......

.....I love this site.....

[HighOnHD]

Hey Tall, with your thread going South so quickly, I'm betting you may be rethinking asking that question now, huh......

Good golly fellers, all ol' Tall wanted was to know if swapping out a twin cam to M8 has been done yet.  Y'all turned it into the MoCo ain't got no engineers or bean counters run the place or which is a better motor......

.....I love this site.....

I agree and apologies. It is actually a great question by the OP. What gets me is when I go to read a post I end up reading GRC post pounding away on HD. At this point I feel obligated to at least be what often seems like a sole alternative opinion to consider. 

[J.D.]

I'm guilty as well I guess.  It's easy for frustration to come through when these expensive bikes have chronic problems.  I'll agree the move to the new M8 platform was needed and a wise move.

I haven't heard of trying to put a M8 in a TC chassis, but then again with everything associated not sure it would make as much sense from several perspectives vs. purchasing a new/clean used M8 bike.

[HighOnHD]

I'm guilty as well I guess.  It's easy for frustration to come through when these expensive bikes have chronic problems.  I'll agree the move to the new M8 platform was needed and a wise move.

I haven't heard of trying to put a M8 in a TC chassis, but then again with everything associated not sure it would make as much sense from several perspectives vs. purchasing a new/clean used M8 bike.

Good point. I think it will depend on the year of the bike to be upgraded. In my case (2015 FLHXSE Rushmore with a  CANBUS) I am just thinking/planning ahead. As it stands I still have a little over 4 years left on warranty. I expect to get at least another engine rebuild over that time period (for $50). Likely within the next 2 or 3 years. At that time it would be nice to have an option to take the warranty money and use it towards replacing the 110 with a factory M8. I don't see how it should be that difficult actually. I'm an Electronic Engineer and Software Engineer by profession. Without knowing all the particulars it seems someone like Steve Cole at TTS who already has their foot in the door in this regard could even put in the effort for the opportunity to Flash the ECM, including and likely requiring exchanging a couple of sensor inputs or some output minor wiring changes and presto a new product to charge for. I would not be surprised though if HD figures out that this is also an opportunity for them to make money and help customers. If I was not knocking on the door of retirement I might have even considered this opportunity!

[Rooster]

Most of the complaining about HD's quality/reliability is frustration from those that have had more problems to deal with verses just being able to ride and not feel like you are buying a platform that has to be upgraded for reliability as each passing year has new issues to deal with including the new M8. Now on their second year have already started it's list of flaws. Back to topic, if you could put the M8 in an older model the suggested S&S 124 lc is prolly a more reliable upgrade based on input from those who have done so. Good luck on your choice.

[Unbalanced]

Most of the complaining about HD's quality/reliability is frustration from those that have had more problems to deal with verses just being able to ride and not feel like you are buying a platform that has to be upgraded for reliability as each passing year has new issues to deal with including the new M8. Now on their second year have already started it's list of flaws. Back to topic, if you could put the M8 in an older model the suggested S&S 124 lc is prolly a more reliable upgrade based on input from those who have done so. Good luck on your choice.

The S&S crate motors aren't a bowl of cherries either, they have their share of issues too.   

Timken inserts that move, line bores that aren't straight, alignment of cam plate bushings off 4 to 5 thousandths,  oiling issues with regards to the pistons, boring tolerances for the cylinders.   

Not defending the crap we're getting from HD just stating Other options aren't 100 percent either.   

Timkens that move -



Camplate bushing alignment

[HighOnHD]

The S&S crate motors aren't a bowl of cherries either, they have their share of issues too.   

Timken inserts that move, line bores that aren't straight, alignment of cam plate bushings off 4 to 5 thousandths,  oiling issues with regards to the pistons, boring tolerances for the cylinders.   

Not defending the crap we're getting from HD just stating Other options aren't 100 percent either.   

Timkens that move -



Camplate bushing alignment

Thanks Unbalanced. That's the kind of info I was suspecting and the kind of info I would rely on!

Obviously you don't have an agenda. I have to rely on significant data in my profession to make decisions, and not just rely on what happens to show up on a forum posted by angry members or some members with an agenda.

I have been bothered by all of the posts stating how much better other engines and parts are and how they are put forward as facts. One of the reason I have been bothered is because of the numbers. HD is putting out huge numbers of "test data" in the way of engines etc. These other engines and parts (I suspect) being put forward as prime examples of superiority in reliability (IMHO) are in comparison to HD just fly-chit! How can anyone really justify making across the board statements about how terrible HD is in comparison to say S&S without using data of significant numbers from BOTH sides!

For example, Rooster ( not to pick on him, because I am sure he is a good guy and has just had to deal with PITA issues ) it seems to me likely relied on a few data points of early reports of promising reliability for JIMS motors before he decided to buy one to replace the HD motor he was having issues with. It appears he even tried to be proactive and replaced the brand new lifters in the engine before installing it! From what I read that engine blew-UP!

I'm not trying to stir anything up here. In my profession I have to insist on comparing apples to apples in my daily life. I have not seen anything YET data wise that would pass in the world I live in to say a factory S&S engine is more reliable than a factory HD engine. Of course I am not saying that the HD engine can not be improved either!

NASCAR teams spend a lot of money improving engines ( they want them to finish a race ) yet they blow up also. Nothing is perfect!

[Rooster]

Wow Harry, thanks for the info. Up till now I have heard nothing but good from others that have done the 124 S&S change.

[Rooster]

To answer Mr. High. Back in 07 with all the early 110 issues that were happening along with the Pinion runout being all over the board as well as several of our members having had motors replaced some 3 times. I did try to be proactive to avoid all the issues, I spent 5 grand on the 110 to do so to no avail. Yes I pulled the 110 and replaced with the Jim's motor not because of research but because there weren't all the options that we have now.  And yes it blew up and I tore it down to the cases to see all the damage. The issue was the cheap azz cam bearings same as HD has been using didn't hold up. They rebuilt it and did an awesome job and been trouble free for the last 20k or so. I remember my old Evo's having to replace the cam bearings right off the bat before they had a chance to go bad. The MOCO knew that and still continued to use the cheap cam bearings on new bikes. I could go on but there are plenty of old threads on this site as well as others on the subject. Sorry for  Im done. I hope you find what you are looking for Mr. High

[SDCVO]

Wow Harry, thanks for the info. Up till now I have heard nothing but good from others that have done the 124 S&S change.

I absolutely love my 124

[FlaHeatWave]

I agree and apologies. It is actually a great question by the OP. What gets me is when I go to read a post I end up reading GRC post pounding away on HD. At this point I feel obligated to at least be what often seems like a sole alternative opinion to consider. 

"Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again. "

You call it "sole alternative opinion to consider",,, but since you are having a total engine rebuild at only 35k, I'm going to call it denial... LMFAO

If it was covered under the manufacturer's warranty, I wouldn't say a thing,,, but since we have to purchase an additional ESP, to cover a "substandard" product,,, I'm with GRC on this,,, The MoCo needs a little "pounding" from time to time,,, Folks from the MoCo read this Forum every now & then...

As far as S&S not being perfect,,, IMHO they're ahead of 2nd place,,, 'most times that's the best that we can do... There's still enough money in the V-Twin Industry that new products are being developed

Unbalanced; Were any of the issues within warranty period?? Did S&S stand behind any of  their products?? 

Yes, much of the M8 is (current&future) EPA driven... and cost savings / simplicity, doing away with a whole sub-system... rolling in the 21st century with the legacy architecture that Harley owners want...

As far as the engine swap, IDK if the wiring harness/ ECM from the M8 would be the way to go??
Techno Research has the capability to write/re-rite the entire ECM...

I'm curious to see long term reports on the M8's Valve train, seeing as there is no (individual) adjustment??

JMHO... 

[HighOnHD]

"Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again. "

You call it "sole alternative opinion to consider",,, but since you are having a total engine rebuild at only 35k, I'm going to call it denial... LMFAO

If it was covered under the manufacturer's warranty, I wouldn't say a thing,,, but since we have to purchase an additional ESP, to cover a "substandard" product,,, I'm with GRC on this,,, The MoCo needs a little "pounding" from time to time,,, Folks from the MoCo read this Forum every now & then...

As far as S&S not being perfect,,, IMHO they're ahead of 2nd place,,, 'most times that's the best that we can do... There's still enough money in the V-Twin Industry that new products are being developed

Unbalanced; Were any of the issues within warranty period?? Did S&S stand behind any of  their products?? 

Yes, much of the M8 is (current&future) EPA driven... and cost savings / simplicity, doing away with a whole sub-system... rolling in the 21st century with the legacy architecture that Harley owners want...

As far as the engine swap, IDK if the wiring harness/ ECM from the M8 would be the way to go??
Techno Research has the capability to write/re-rite the entire ECM...

I'm curious to see long term reports on the M8's Valve train, seeing as there is no (individual) adjustment??

JMHO...

Fair enough.

Denial? Of what? No one makes me DO anything or BUY anything (except my wife on occasion)!! This isn’t my first Harley and it is somewhere around my 15th or so bike. I bought this bike (as most things in life) because I wanted to buy it. Knowing exactly what to expect with this bike I also wanted to buy the ESP.

Everyone has an opinion. I love my bike, and do not in any way regret the purchase I made, and have yet to see an alternative (for me) that would be a better purchase. If you think there is a better one out there how about proposing it? Which do you suggest?

I’m not saying this is you, but the difference is unlike some I don’t continually blame someone else for the decisions I make! I own them. I don't have an agenda. I just take things at their face value and deal with it. When I get off of the ESP warranty teat and have a choice to either make an attempt to make this engine more reliable (hopefully not too difficult) , or choose to try another engine out to see if it manages to be more reliable, or just decide to buy another bike... I will deal with it then. In the mean time it would be nice to be able to filter out some of the noise that gets posted so that it would be easier to know what ACTUALLY needs to be done!

So far though I am not convinced that HD is as despicable as some try to make them out to be. JMHO

[J.D.]

From my perspective I have no real beef with Harley or any company having a poor or unreliable product design.  Where the issue lies is how they handle their deficiencies.  There's certainly a pattern of behavior.

[HighOnHD]

From my perspective I have no real beef with Harley or any company having a poor or unreliable product design.  Where the issue lies is how they handle their deficiencies.  There's certainly a pattern of behavior.

I generally root for the underdog, but I would not consider HD the underdog. Maybe it has to with my other trait where if I see someone picking on someone I stick up for them!

In any case I wish my bike was finished so that I can be out riding it rather than paying attention to this fly-chit!!

[Unbalanced]

"Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again. "

You call it "sole alternative opinion to consider",,, but since you are having a total engine rebuild at only 35k, I'm going to call it denial... LMFAO

If it was covered under the manufacturer's warranty, I wouldn't say a thing,,, but since we have to purchase an additional ESP, to cover a "substandard" product,,, I'm with GRC on this,,, The MoCo needs a little "pounding" from time to time,,, Folks from the MoCo read this Forum every now & then...

As far as S&S not being perfect,,, IMHO they're ahead of 2nd place,,, 'most times that's the best that we can do... There's still enough money in the V-Twin Industry that new products are being developed

Unbalanced; Were any of the issues within warranty period?? Did S&S stand behind any of  their products?? 

Yes, much of the M8 is (current&future) EPA driven... and cost savings / simplicity, doing away with a whole sub-system... rolling in the 21st century with the legacy architecture that Harley owners want...

As far as the engine swap, IDK if the wiring harness/ ECM from the M8 would be the way to go??
Techno Research has the capability to write/re-rite the entire ECM...

I'm curious to see long term reports on the M8's Valve train, seeing as there is no (individual) adjustment??

JMHO...

Ed as you are aware I had the banging noise from the start of installation, and each time it got rebutted.  It wasn't till I could prove the manufacturing issues that only partial help was given.   Crank and Cases and gaskets.   No Labor, No Cylinders, No Pistons.   It is what it is.   So the slipperly slope of getting taken to the cleaners is over, I now know EVERYTHING to the tiniest details of this motor and what it took to resolve issues that should have never of left S&S assembly line.

If someone had done even the tiniest bit of checking at S&S this motor would have NEVER of rolled out of their shop.   Was it the Timken that was too tight maybe, was it mis-alignment of the Timken through the cases to the bushing in the camplate more likely or a combination of both cant say.   I can say that I prefer the jims Timken although not line bored, but pinned to the gnarled press fit that also had alignment issues.   Had to wait many weeks for cases, thinking that they had an alignment issue.   Had to resolve the issue on our own by finally getting a new cam plate bushing from S&S and having it mocked up and bored correctly to .001 and outter fitment of less than .0013 vs the .0025 and .0045 and .0055 on the xy axis out of alignment.

Still battling internally about whether to post this build and all the tribulations.    Spent the evening cutting rings and setting ring gaps on the total seal rings (not gapless), installing pistons/rings/cylinders and installing the short block into the bike     there is still a chance it will be together for Biketoberfest (well doing my damnedest to make it happen.   Also picked up the heads and new head gaskets from Sachs this morning.   Ended up having to buy new overnighted head gaskets from Cometic, as the pistons were out of the hole with the new cases .004 and .008 /gawd.  Can't say if it was the cases or the cylinders or a combination of both that caused the + deck height.   Just couldn't live with a .022 and .026 squish to much chance for expansion and hitting the piston on the head.   Anyhow heads go on tomorrow and were off to the races on primary etc.

Sorry if I jacked this a little here, but you asked and there was more to it than just yes or no. 

[FLSTFI Dave]

"Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again. "

You call it "sole alternative opinion to consider",,, but since you are having a total engine rebuild at only 35k, I'm going to call it denial... LMFAO

If it was covered under the manufacturer's warranty, I wouldn't say a thing,,, but since we have to purchase an additional ESP, to cover a "substandard" product,,, I'm with GRC on this,,, The MoCo needs a little "pounding" from time to time,,, Folks from the MoCo read this Forum every now & then...

As far as S&S not being perfect,,, IMHO they're ahead of 2nd place,,, 'most times that's the best that we can do... There's still enough money in the V-Twin Industry that new products are being developed

Unbalanced; Were any of the issues within warranty period?? Did S&S stand behind any of  their products?? 

Yes, much of the M8 is (current&future) EPA driven... and cost savings / simplicity, doing away with a whole sub-system... rolling in the 21st century with the legacy architecture that Harley owners want...

As far as the engine swap, IDK if the wiring harness/ ECM from the M8 would be the way to go??
Techno Research has the capability to write/re-rite the entire ECM...

I'm curious to see long term reports on the M8's Valve train, seeing as there is no (individual) adjustment??

JMHO...

HighOnHD,

It cost you more than $50.00 to have the motor rebuilt you had to pay for an extended warranty.  So, you motor is  being rebuilt during peak riding season.  How many weeks is your bike down?

Failed lifters going on for 9 years is not executable.  HD knows of the issues, and counts on people not riding enough miles a year to have to cover it under factory warranty.  For HD its cheeper to not fix the issue, and fix a few bikes under factory warranty like they had to do for two of mine.  On my 15, lifters failed at 44K and motor was replaced under factory warranty.

Many say oh that was nice they fixed it under warranty, you should not be up set.  Well, it happened the first day of a planned vacation with my Nephew and a few other friends.  We had been planning a year.  I did not get to go.  That pissed me off more the the failed lifter, but that was 100% HD fault.

FlaHeatWave,

Fully agree with you on having to purchase an additional ESP.  I never have for anything.  That is also why I trade my Harley at two years.  I know its going to have issues, expensive ones.  If I were to keep it longer I would have to buy the warranty.  All my cars and trucks have never had an engine failure. 

The M8 is EPA driven.  Noise is part of it and so is emissions for here  and Europe.  The Valve train of the HD twin cam is noisy and EPA is demanding a quieter bike.  M8 has little to no valve train noise.  M8 also has cleaner emissions. 

I think the M8 is a better motor, but I am afraid it has its issues due to HD's loose tolerances for parts, and using the least expensive part.

That said my 17 CVO Street glide had 20526 trouble free miles in 11 months.  To really know we will need to see them with 60K or more miles on them

[HighOnHD]

HighOnHD,

It cost you more than $50.00 to have the motor rebuilt you had to pay for an extended warranty.  So, you motor is  being rebuilt during peak riding season.  How many weeks is your bike down?

Failed lifters going on for 9 years is not executable.  HD knows of the issues, and counts on people not riding enough miles a year to have to cover it under factory warranty.  For HD its cheeper to not fix the issue, and fix a few bikes under factory warranty like they had to do for two of mine.  On my 15, lifters failed at 44K and motor was replaced under factory warranty.

Many say oh that was nice they fixed it under warranty, you should not be up set.  Well, it happened the first day of a planned vacation with my Nephew and a few other friends.  We had been planning a year.  I did not get to go.  That pissed me off more the the failed lifter, but that was 100% HD fault.

FlaHeatWave,

Fully agree with you on having to purchase an additional ESP.  I never have for anything.  That is also why I trade my Harley at two years.  I know its going to have issues, expensive ones.  If I were to keep it longer I would have to buy the warranty.  All my cars and trucks have never had an engine failure. 

The M8 is EPA driven.  Noise is part of it and so is emissions for here  and Europe.  The Valve train of the HD twin cam is noisy and EPA is demanding a quieter bike.  M8 has little to no valve train noise.  M8 also has cleaner emissions. 

I think the M8 is a better motor, but I am afraid it has its issues due to HD's loose tolerances for parts, and using the least expensive part.

That said my 17 CVO Street glide had 20526 trouble free miles in 11 months.  To really know we will need to see them with 60K or more miles on them

Hi Dave,

First off I would like to thank you for your service. Appreciated!

I have actually thought about and compared your method of trading-in every two years and the method I am using of purchasing the ESP. Mostly wondering if the undoubtedly extra cost of your method (I would imagine at trade-in you are getting around $10K less than you paid) would make up for the possibility of obtaining extra riding time. It just does not make sense in that regard to me.
I almost wish it was "peak riding season here"! It's actually the tail end of the season, and yes that part hurts. I instead try to look at the three years of hella fun yearly across country plus 5K mile trips I enjoyed, along with the multiple over-weekenders and many other fun rides without an issue.

I know a lot of people harp on about the "lifters, the lifters!", and how all HD has needed to do was put in some better ones for a few dollars more and all would be great. I disagree. They needed to do a re-design. In my case the actual cause was not the lifters. The actual cause was heat!!! Does anyone give HD any credit for attempting to correct the heat (while at the same time trying to PLEASE everyone) by engineering the water-cooled head design? That actually did take some additional time and money for them to do that! No credit! It still did not work, and they bit the bullet and did a complete redesign to try again to fix it. Remember it is an air-cooled engine that the majority of us seem to demand.

Mechanical problems are not restricted to HD! When I was a kid I worked as a Mercedes mechanic. I admire a lot of the engineering put into those cars. Don't think for a minute though that I did not make a lot of money fixing a steady stream of those cars ON WARRANTY!!! My dad bought a brand new Chevy Truck. 5 miles on the ODO. Moved his tools from the old Ford truck into the new one. Started the new one up and thought he heard a rod knocking. Went and got the salesman to hear. At first the salesman said I don't hear it, so my dad pushed the pedal to the floor and it knocked like hell. They rebuilt the engine on the brand new truck. Go do a search on the Indian forum and you will find a thread of something like 170 pages that competes well with the Twin Cam thread on this site of owners complaining.

As far as I can tell HD did not hold a gun to your head telling you to keep buying their bikes! All I can say is get used to it. If it is made by humans it will break. Hell I'm not made by humans and I can feel the break-downs daily.

Unbalanced I appreciate your honesty in reporting your issues with S&S. BTW. Your two posts are the most relevant posts in this thread!!!! I still think it comes down to the numbers and percentage wise I still suspect HD has better quality percentage wise than some others put forward. I'm just trying to play devils advocate and learn from others on this site what truly needs to be done. All of the other noise posts just get in the way!

[J.D.]

The problem with the lifters is the cam ramps, total lift, and spring pressure required to produce the power exceed the limits of these lifters.  This is not just an opinion.  The M8 design addresses this more or less.  There are aftermarket lifters that can tolerate this a bit better than the current OE "c" suffix lifters.

[HighOnHD]

The problem with the lifters is the cam ramps, total lift, and spring pressure required to produce the power exceed the limits of these lifters.  This is not just an opinion.  The M8 design addresses this more or less.  There are aftermarket lifters that can tolerate this a bit better than the current OE "c" suffix lifters.

I'm going to move on after this post, and I'm sure others will carry it on, and on... Not sure if my alternate opinion has had any effect.

My failure was heat related. The HEAT did in the valve seals. They leaked and eventually caused an exhaust valve to stick. Well you know what happens after that.

Yes I agree M8 design and all the time and effort HD put into that was to help with the valve train issues. I thought I said that??? I hope you can enjoy the bike you have. Good day.

I get mine back Tuesday!! Now hoping for the non-rain days to enjoy it some more.
Cheers.

[FlaHeatWave]

Fair enough.

Denial? Of what? No one makes me DO anything or BUY anything (except my wife on occasion)!! This isn’t my first Harley and it is somewhere around my 15th or so bike. I bought this bike (as most things in life) because I wanted to buy it. Knowing exactly what to expect with this bike I also wanted to buy the ESP.

Everyone has an opinion. I love my bike, and do not in any way regret the purchase I made, and have yet to see an alternative (for me) that would be a better purchase. If you think there is a better one out there how about proposing it? Which do you suggest?

I’m not saying this is you, but the difference is unlike some I don’t continually blame someone else for the decisions I make! I own them. I don't have an agenda. I just take things at their face value and deal with it. When I get off of the ESP warranty teat and have a choice to either make an attempt to make this engine more reliable (hopefully not too difficult) , or choose to try another engine out to see if it manages to be more reliable, or just decide to buy another bike... I will deal with it then. In the mean time it would be nice to be able to filter out some of the noise that gets posted so that it would be easier to know what ACTUALLY needs to be done!

So far though I am not convinced that HD is as despicable as some try to make them out to be. JMHO

None of this was directed at you in any kind of derogatory way, I'd hoped to convey some humor, guess it didn't come across as intended  

Me,,,I'm one of the biggest "kool-aide" drinkers ever,,, "Why do I have 3 Harleys??" "So that I have 1 to ride when the other 2 are in the Shop"LOL

As a lifetime motorcycle enthusiast, I've been fortunate to experience many different Bikes (brands),,, HDs for over 40 years,,, In spite of HD's cost and shortcomings, I'm sticking with them... All brands have issues...

I'm sure that we all appreciate another point of view, a dissenting opinion if you will,,, but many here have experienced issues that we feel should have been addressed already, I have had my share,,, ESP has been a very cost effective decision for me,,, I was fortunate to have a Dealer that was fair and did the right thing...

Something that gets mentioned from time to time; "There's a disproportionate amount of issues posted on the Forums" "people come to the Forums to bitch, or find fixes" "there are plenty of Harley owners with tons of miles and zero issues"... maybe so?? maybe not?? IDK,,, only the MoCo has access to all that info... I know experienced operators (not on any forums) that have many trouble free miles, routine maintenance only,,, and those that have multiple failures with things that should have been fixed / warrantied by the MoCo...       

Yea, I'm with you,,, nobody held a gun to my head to make me buy a Harley

Yep, it's good to have choices,,, we can take advantage of a mature (and still developing) aftermarket for the Twin Cam, or get a totally new engine platform (M8) to work with,,, or keep the TC & get an M8

Here's hoping that you get many more miles of smiles out of your HD

[FLSTFI Dave]

Hi Dave,

First off I would like to thank you for your service. Appreciated!

I have actually thought about and compared your method of trading-in every two years and the method I am using of purchasing the ESP. Mostly wondering if the undoubtedly extra cost of your method (I would imagine at trade-in you are getting around $10K less than you paid) would make up for the possibility of obtaining extra riding time. It just does not make sense in that regard to me.
I almost wish it was "peak riding season here"! It's actually the tail end of the season, and yes that part hurts. I instead try to look at the three years of hella fun yearly across country plus 5K mile trips I enjoyed, along with the multiple over-weekenders and many other fun rides without an issue.

I know a lot of people harp on about the "lifters, the lifters!", and how all HD has needed to do was put in some better ones for a few dollars more and all would be great. I disagree. They needed to do a re-design. In my case the actual cause was not the lifters. The actual cause was heat!!! Does anyone give HD any credit for attempting to correct the heat (while at the same time trying to PLEASE everyone) by engineering the water-cooled head design? That actually did take some additional time and money for them to do that! No credit! It still did not work, and they bit the bullet and did a complete redesign to try again to fix it. Remember it is an air-cooled engine that the majority of us seem to demand.

Mechanical problems are not restricted to HD! When I was a kid I worked as a Mercedes mechanic. I admire a lot of the engineering put into those cars. Don't think for a minute though that I did not make a lot of money fixing a steady stream of those cars ON WARRANTY!!! My dad bought a brand new Chevy Truck. 5 miles on the ODO. Moved his tools from the old Ford truck into the new one. Started the new one up and thought he heard a rod knocking. Went and got the salesman to hear. At first the salesman said I don't hear it, so my dad pushed the pedal to the floor and it knocked like hell. They rebuilt the engine on the brand new truck. Go do a search on the Indian forum and you will find a thread of something like 170 pages that competes well with the Twin Cam thread on this site of owners complaining.

As far as I can tell HD did not hold a gun to your head telling you to keep buying their bikes! All I can say is get used to it. If it is made by humans it will break. Hell I'm not made by humans and I can feel the break-downs daily.

Unbalanced I appreciate your honesty in reporting your issues with S&S. BTW. Your two posts are the most relevant posts in this thread!!!! I still think it comes down to the numbers and percentage wise I still suspect HD has better quality percentage wise than some others put forward. I'm just trying to play devils advocate and learn from others on this site what truly needs to be done. All of the other noise posts just get in the way!

If I was loosing 10K on trade, then I would not be trading.  I ride year round but we are nearing the end of our riding season.  I own three harley's so one one is broke I have something to ride.  That however does not fix a trip that the bike fails several hundred miles from home, as my 15 did.

The failed lifters are caused by excessive valve spring pressure from everything I have read and cheep lifters that can not handle it.  On my I have addressed those issues.  It would not have cost harley much to address it.  They chose not to, knowing failures usually happen after the bike is long out of warranty.

Yes, seems like Harley did try to address the heat issue, my 15 CVO Road Glide Ultra was the coolest running twin cam I owned, yet it had lifter failure.  My 17 CVO Street glide was a little cooler than the 15.  Seems HD has gone backwards now, as the CVO Street Glide, and Road Glide are no longer water cooled heads.  Water pumps cost to much?  Its now oil cooled heads, and it is much hotter.

Seems like Oil pumps are the issue on the M8.  Time will tell.

I have owned 8 CMC trucks, all but one I put over 100K miles on.  No failed engines.  My wife has had several SUVs all over 100K miles, a couple over 200K miles, no engine failures.

Out of four twin cam 110 motors, two had catastrophic lifter failures, under 47K miles, one went 46K no failure.  The 4th never had a chance, as the motor top end was built with better lifters, and valve springs with lower pressures with only 1500 miles on the motor.  I knew I was keeping this bike.

So that is at least a 50% failure rate on the HD 110 motor for me.  A car co would be out of business with that failure rate.

You are right HD did not hold a gun to my head.  They happen to be the best choice for several reasons.  Looks, comfort and dealers are everywhere.  All the others have issues also, indian, and BMW have as many issues as HD.  Gold wing seems to have the least amount of issues, but I do not like them.  After My 15's failure I was very close to being on an Indian. 

That said, I will not give HD a pass for crappy lifters and high valve spring failures.  Or high failures with the oil pumps on the M8.  Harley needs to know that customers are upset, and that they do have failures.  In this modern day and age 100K miles on an engine is the norm, why can't the motorcycle industry do it other than goldwing?

I am anxiously waiting to see some high milage M8's. 

[VaEagle]

Wow there seems to be lots of frustration over reliability issues that is never ending on the web :

 

In the past many of us have brought up the fact that Harley and other similar designed motors are hampered by their marketing for the old school image/history of a motor that was the latest and greatest of about 1936 and it is hard to make that old design meet new gas mileage and pollution regulations while hauling around more and more gadgets and stuff that bikers can't live without today.
I know we all develop nostalgic feelings for the look,sound and feel of bikes that were "real bikes" when we were growing up and it is hard to let go. Most of us have a mental picture of what we think we look like riding a particular style/brand of bike and that is what any copany's marketing department loves. Harley in particular is fantastic as selling their bikes as part of a lifestyle not just a reliable means of transportation.
Otherwise many of us would be riding Honda Goldwings for the turnkey reliability they are known for but we convince ourselves "they don't have a soul" .
Yes and also every manufacturer has service and repair shops even Rolls-Royce or Lamborghini so I know even Honda has them.

[charles05663]

I recall that several years ago there was hope that HD would release a fully water cooled engine like the Revolution for the touring bikes.  I would rather have a more reliable bike then hold on to the past.

 

[Rooster]

I'm going to move on after this post, and I'm sure others will carry it on, and on... Not sure if my alternate opinion has had any effect.

My failure was heat related. The HEAT did in the valve seals. They leaked and eventually caused an exhaust valve to stick. Well you know what happens after that.

Yes I agree M8 design and all the time and effort HD put into that was to help with the valve train issues. I thought I said that??? I hope you can enjoy the bike you have. Good day.

I get mine back Tuesday!! Now hoping for the non-rain days to enjoy it some more.
Cheers.

I had the exact same thing happen on my 07 in 08. Mine was the rear exhaust valve. As you say prolly heat related. The tech had to beat it on both ends to get it loose. Guides and seals failed twice.