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[bikerdoc]

I have a 2015 road Glide CVO and I am thinking of getting Power Duals  head pipes and Hi-Output slip-on. I am having a difficult time deciding on Vance&Hines fuelpak FP3 or H.D. race tuner. My area dealers that have Dyno are completely against anything other than H.D. race tuner and the ones that don't have Dyno are telling me that FP3 is the only way to go.
I am very confused and need help.
Previously I had Tunder-Max and before that I had H.D. race tuner.

[bikerdoc]

I have a 2015 road Glide CVO and I am thinking of getting Power Duals  head pipes and Hi-Output slip-on. I am having a difficult time deciding on Vance&Hines fuelpak FP3 or H.D. race tuner. My area dealers that have Dyno are completely against anything other than H.D. race tuner and the ones that don't have Dyno are telling me that FP3 is the only way to go.
I am very confused and need help.
Previously I had Tunder-Max and before that I had H.D. race tuner.

[RGKen]

They both are pushing what they sell.  I don't know about the FP3 but if the dealer with the Dyno has a tech that knows what he is doing then that is the way I would go.  Hard to beat a good full Dyno tune no matter what software/hardware is used. 

[tervonenllc]

I have a 2015 road Glide CVO and I am thinking of getting Power Duals  head pipes and Hi-Output slip-on. I am having a difficult time deciding on Vance&Hines fuelpak FP3 or H.D. race tuner. My area dealers that have Dyno are completely against anything other than H.D. race tuner and the ones that don't have Dyno are telling me that FP3 is the only way to go.
I am very confused and need help.
Previously I had Tunder-Max and before that I had H.D. race tuner.

I suppose the question is: are you going to dyno it? If not you have ready made maps downloadable from V&H for that setup. I personally have no clue what if anything could be gained (for a stock engine) from dyno in todays world where we have companies such as V&H dynoing all day long and then putting the maps out. I have Street Glide CVO 2015 with Power Duals and Monster Rounds together with FP3 & as the latest add-on SE Extreme Billet Ventilator. Simple as. No snap, crackle or pop nor any other problems whatsoever.

[Ridgerunr]

"Hard impossible to beat a good full Dyno tune no matter what software/hardware is used"

Fixed it. 

Doubt a FP3 adjusts timing. I could be wrong.

[tervonenllc]

"Hard impossible to beat a good full Dyno tune no matter what software/hardware is used"

Fixed it. 

Doubt a FP3 adjusts timing. I could be wrong.

I have no technical knowledge so I have no idea what it adjusts.  I just plugged it and was amazed and felt great pride for being able to "tune" my bike with a bit of tapping on iPhone. 

[grc]

Why limit your choices to just two?  There are better options on the market than either of those you listed, such as TTS and PowerVision.  If you are like many/most Harley riders, you may think you will be satisfied with one of the piggyback devices offered by the exhaust companies, but most eventually go on to get a full featured system, especially if they decide to do cams and other work later on.  I'm a believer in doing it right the first time, so I normally recommend going with something that has the most capabilities from the beginning.

If you have a truly good professional tuner in your area, I'd suggest talking to him before making a decision.  And do not assume that just because a Harley shop has a dyno that they are fully qualified and competent tuners.  Sadly, most are not.  The best system or device in the world won't make up for an incompetent guy doing the tune.

JMHO - Jerry

[jpdchicago]

The FP3 works great if do not absolutely care to have it tuned. I have the FP3 with Power Duals and Monster Rounds on a 2014 CVO RK. The map works great as long as your header/pipes combination is one of their downloadable map choices.
I have had several bikes tuned (with after market cams)  but this setup works so well (huge amount of torque and power) without even using the autotune option of the FP3 that I am not planning to do anything else to the engine. A perfect tune with a competent tuner is always best...but good luck with that!

[Nicky Pass]

I was gonna go FP3, but I have had great luck with Fuel Moto and the Power Vision with a tune from them.  $499 for the Power Vision, mount, visor and lifetime Map support....how,could,you go wrong!?

[Tibs]

FP3 lets you adjust timing, upper and lower limits on AFR in the closed loop, and so on and so on even a few of the clutch/jiffy stand type options can be set with it.

Its worked great for me, Power Duals, Monster Ovals, stock otherwise 2015.    If you want to change the cam, you change it in the software and auto tune it some more.   

No, its not the same as a dyno but then again I'm happy. 

[CVODON]

When I bought my 15 I decided for once, it runs OK, I am going to just ride it. Then my wife bought me a set of 1.75" Fulsac baffles for christmas. I installed them and still promised myself no more changes, it ran OK.
Over 4th of July Eastern Performance had a sale and sent me a coupon on top of that and I bought a FP3 for $279 delivered.
I am amazed at the five minute install and resulting difference in throttle response and heat I no longer feel on my right leg which I thought was not to bad anyway. I am very pleased and would buy one again.
I have had dyno tuned bikes in the past, last one with TTS, one before that with SERT and one before that with PCIII. But I do hate guys beating hell out of my bike making uneducated guesses to come to an end, which has always been a good end, just to much trial and error in this day and age and I no longer require that end. FP3 is acceptable for me.

[tervonenllc]

...
I am amazed at the five minute install and resulting difference in throttle response ...

Just noticed yesterday that it is even possible to tune the throttle response with FP3. Turned mine to "aggressive" and now the response is immediate.

[Phantom309]

Just noticed yesterday that it is even possible to tune the throttle response with FP3. Turned mine to "aggressive" and now the response is immediate.

Switch it to 1:1 race and it's even better ... once I tried that I never bothered with anything less. The FP3 is a good bang for the buck and I love mine. Most here swear by getting a "professional tune" like it's the bible and the only "right" way to do it. That's fine if you have time for a long road trip, spending the extra cash and watching someone hammer your bike for however long it takes to extract every last once of power from it ... no thanks. V&H knows what they're doing too and my bike runs a lot better than my old RG did with full exhaust and a Race Tuner with a canned map from the stealer. The FP3 was cheaper than a Race Tuner and you can diy vs. the stealer's canned map/dyno routine.

Don't let all the trash talk about the FP3 being a cheap canned tuner sway you from buying one if you were seriously considering it, it works great for me and many others that have it. Maybe it isn't for everyone, but it won't disappoint you for the money and what it will do for your bike. Sure, Dyno Joe Blow with his choice of tuner might get me another pony or two, but if I really wanted a race bike to bounce off the rev limiter, ride wheelies on, do burnouts and beat the snot out of every minute of the day ... I would've drove right past the HD shop and rode home on a bone stock crotch rocket that would embarrass any HD that just came out of Joe Blow's with everything under the sun done to it. To each their own ... if you want your pampered, comfy cruiser to have a little extra snap over stock like me then the FP3 won't let you down.

Not sure why a lot of guys give it such a bad rap when I haven't witnessed ANYONE even try to dyno tune with it. You can raise/lower your idle speed and rev limiter, change front/rear VE tables, spark tables and a/f ratio and a bunch of other stuff I personally wouldn't screw with. I suppose it's only downfall is it uses the factory narrow band O2 sensors unlike some of the higher end tuners that use wide band sensors. I've looked high and low for a bike tuned on a dyno with the FP3 with no such luck. Not that I actually need anymore from my bike, but I am curious to see how it stacks up against a comparable tuner on the dyno. All the good shops/tuners out there today I'm surprised nobody tried the FP3 on the dyno ... even just for chits and giggles, either way I'm happy with mine. 

 

[Ridgerunr]

"That's fine if you have time for a long road trip,"

I do have time.....for long road trips, why I bought  a bagger, and being I'm in various altitudes, weather conditions, grades of fuel etc. is why I get mine dyno tuned. Not for a couple horsepower but for no engine damaging detonation, in all throttle positions. Good fuel mileage is just a bonus. When suggesting a dyno tune we're not putting you fuel pak down, just want others to know the joy of an excellent running bike. If your happy,  Enjoy.

[tervonenllc]

Same here. Want others to know that with FP3 my bike is running so excellent that it's nearly impossible to imagine how it would run any better with further tweeking. Just tuned my throttle response to "race" as it was suggested above. It took about 2 minutes via iphone.

Over here in Europe we don't know anything about miles, but what comes to fuel economy, I just filled my tank and the range jumped to +430km's. Took a short spin of 30km's and the range dropped to 427km's. I don't know how many kilometres or miles others are getting from their tanks with normal type of riding, but it doesn't sound too bad.

If someone gives proof that with dyno I can get much better economy and even more smoother running engine, I will push my bike over there asap. Hell, could even think of flying the dyno specialist for a weeks holiday in Europe to do his magic.

"That's fine if you have time for a long road trip,"

I do have time.....for long road trips, why I bought  a bagger, and being I'm in various altitudes, weather conditions, grades of fuel etc. is why I get mine dyno tuned. Not for a couple horsepower but for no engine damaging detonation, in all throttle positions. Good fuel mileage is just a bonus. When suggesting a dyno tune we're not putting you fuel pak down, just want others to know the joy of an excellent running bike. If your happy,  Enjoy.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Same here. Want others to know that with FP3 my bike is running so excellent that it's nearly impossible to imagine how it would run any better with further tweeking. Just tuned my throttle response to "race" as it was suggested above. It took about 2 minutes via iphone.

Over here in Europe we don't know anything about miles, but what comes to fuel economy, I just filled my tank and the range jumped to +430km's. Took a short spin of 30km's and the range dropped to 427km's. I don't know how many kilometres or miles others are getting from their tanks with normal type of riding, but it doesn't sound too bad.

If someone gives proof that with dyno I can get much better economy and even more smoother running engine, I will push my bike over there asap. Hell, could even think of flying the dyno specialist for a weeks holiday in Europe to do his magic.

I understand that many will never tune a bike on a dyno them selves so they have no hands on to truly understand what it takes to correctly tune a bike. This is not about peak power or its just a cruiser not a race bike. Just facts.. A shop that has no dyno claims they are the best( what ever they claim brand wise) .. well yes what else can they do???.. a shop that is running under the moco rules will tell you that the Pro tuner is the way to go.

As a shop that tunes just about all the tuners out there..  plan your build now and in the future.  Cost wise you will spend more if a new tuner is needed at a later date. 

AS for the challenge of tuning.... I will take that you buy.... I fly

I have no doubt that your bike runs better than it did stock ,.. however until you can compare it to a bike correctly tuned tough to say that it can be better.  as you have nothing to compare it against..    Never been to Finland 



BTW I had tuned them on the dyno as street tuning is tough ,  Too many cars trucks on the roads in this area to be tuning on the street.  Hell they never use the turn signal as it is so try to watch a screen, and tune the bike and watch the these drivers sure to get you buggered.  Its better but still lacks the fine details tuning wise.. BUT you need to understand what they are targeting. Its better than a straight canned map and for most if it runs better than it did they have a happy customer.. Until that is they ride a bike that has been tuned correctly that is 

[Ridgerunr]

"If someone gives proof that with dyno I can get much better economy and even more smoother running engine, I will push my bike over there asap."

Can you prove your bike is not detonating in all throttle positions? You can't always hear it. Detonation isn't called the silent killer for nothing.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

That is funny you brought that up..    Get a phone call where a guy has a blown engine. Dealer was running it on the dyno ( not tuning but checking AFR) front piston breaks apart and makes a huge mess. Guy had a 103 with 255 cam if I recall .. skip to the end Detonation was the reason.. A cast piston will get micro fractures in it.. It is cast after all over time it failed..

Timing plays a huge role in the tune. The HD  ION system is not great by any means.. Most times the system is chasing the ping and pulling timing but it will still ping.. All it can do is look at a abnormality in the voltage to the plug. It really has no idea what ping is other than when it sees "X" it pulls timing.

Again there is a lot to properly tuning a engine in all the areas .. Think back or search back a few years where all the guys where trying to tune on the street and burning up brake pads and warping rotors trying to get into the areas long enough to get correct data.. Flashing through a area a few times is data but it may or may not be correct. So now you have adaptive fuel looking at surrounding  cells and making changes based on data it has to work with. Correct info or not the change will still happen.

The "human" in the tune is the game changer as we can look at something and know it's wrong and make changes to correct that..  Old saying garbage in garbage out..

[TNCarters]

Running the FP3 with a catless head pipe and Fullsac muffler cores.  Its doing OK but don't doubt a good dyno tuner could do better.  I put it on because I have no tuners in my area I trust and did not want the bike running lean so it was either this or a Powervision/TTS with canned map.  Never operated a dyno but have no doubt the FP3 would be a pain for a tuner to use with the limited maps, maps locked into your phone and you can only access maps while bike is powered up.  On the plus side it was relatively cheap and bike runs as well as the canned map I had on my previous bike.  One day if I change any engine components I'll probably need to get a real dyno tune with a higher end tuner.  All respect to the great tuners on this site, I'm sure you could do better but this has improved my bike without significant cost.  Even though FP3 has now updated to support cams, I'm not sure I'd want to use it for that dramatic of change.  Basically I consider it a stage 1 tuner. JMO worth what you paid for it.

I'd love to see an unbiased evaluation of how well the canned map is running with timing, torque, HP and AFR.  I know GMR offered at one time to do that but have not seen anyone take him up on it.  I totally agree with GMR that its very difficult to hit all the tune cells on the street.

[a206driver]

Let's see. FP3, $299 delivered to my door. Five minutes to read directions, install, choose map, flash. Auto-tune if I wish. Better gas mileage and runs smoother. Calibrate speedometer, done. Change cams, no problem. Change exhaust, no problem. Change map. Auto-tune if I wish. It runs cooler - great. It has more power - great. Let's adjust the throttle response, no problem. All with the FP3 that I started with - great.

Cost of other tuner $XXX, wow that's more expensive than the FP3. I have to Dyno-tune, crap how much is that? $XXX. I have to find a good tuner to do it too, crap shoot. Travel time to there, wait, wait more. How much again? crap $XXX. I was done in five minutes before and didn't have to travel anywhere or find a reputable tuner. OK, cool, I got this cool piece of paper that I can show everyone and post online to show how cool it is and how big my penis is. I want to change cams, crap, Dyno-tune again; how much $XXX. Crap shoot to find a new shop because Fast Freddy isn't there anymore. Travel time, wait, wait more. New piece of paper. Show friends, post online, no one gives a chit. I really want a new exhaust, I give up. Buy new bike and put FP3 on it.

[grc]

Let's see. FP3, $299 delivered to my door. Five minutes to read directions, install, choose map, flash. Auto-tune if I wish. Better gas mileage and runs smoother. Calibrate speedometer, done. Change cams, no problem. Change exhaust, no problem. Change map. Auto-tune if I wish. It runs cooler - great. It has more power - great. Let's adjust the throttle response, no problem. All with the FP3 that I started with - great.

Cost of other tuner $XXX, wow that's more expensive than the FP3. I have to Dyno-tune, crap how much is that? $XXX. I have to find a good tuner to do it too, crap shoot. Travel time to there, wait, wait more. How much again? crap $XXX. I was done in five minutes before and didn't have to travel anywhere or find a reputable tuner. OK, cool, I got this cool piece of paper that I can show everyone and post online to show how cool it is and how big my penis is. I want to change cams, crap, Dyno-tune again; how much $XXX. Crap shoot to find a new shop because Fast Freddy isn't there anymore. Travel time, wait, wait more. New piece of paper. Show friends, post online, no one gives a chit. I really want a new exhaust, I give up. Buy new bike and put FP3 on it.

You forgot the part we see from many people who have opted for the somewhat cheaper "tuning devices" from V&H, Cobra, and others.  When they have problems the canned map and so-called "auto tune" can't fix, they ask for members to wave a magic wand to tell them a simple answer to fix their problems.  Many of us usually advise them to chalk up the loss on the "cheaper and easier" solution to furthering their educations, and then find a full time pro to tune their bike correctly.

Some folks never do more than changing pipes and maybe air cleaners, and are happy with the simple offerings.  If that makes them happy, then that's fine by me and most everyone else around here.  However, when they come back and ask for recommendations on a better solution, many of us will continue to suggest finding a full time fully qualified professional (not your typical Harley shop kind of person) and discuss it with them.  You just  spent over $40k on a motorcycle, why be cheap when it comes to making it run as well as it can and should?

Btw, TTS and PV also offer a selection of canned maps and also offer "auto tuning", as well as many other capabilities and features V&H doesn't.  You don't have to do the dyno tune thing with those if you don't want to either.  So the price difference isn't as much as you imply.

To each his own.

Jerry

[HOGMIKE]

I have taken a different approach since '09.
My last 3 bikes I just waited 'till my local (286 miles away) tuner gets a new bike, tears it apart, puts his pipes and mufflers on it, spends days on the dyno getting it perfect, then, I buy the same bike and make a run over there and say "hook me up"!
Never been disappointed. JMHO
 

[CannonBall]

And what RapM range does the FP3 auto tune?

[TNCarters]

The FP3 attemps to tune the entire RPM/TPS range but it has to load a special tune map into the bike to read the entire range using stock narrow band O2 sensors.  After tuning is done the calculated map readings are written back into a more typical map file and flashed into the bike. The FP3 does not run in autotune mode all the time, its just a temporary mode to refine the VE table for your configuration.  The rider has to make an effort to hit the full range of RPM/TPS cells while riding in autotune which is not an easy task.

[grc]

In other words, the V&H "auto tune" is similar in operation to the "auto tune" offered by TTS and others.  It really isn't fully automatic, it doesn't run constantly, and since the stock narrow band sensors can't accurately read significantly rich or lean mixtures there is a lot of interpolation.  Not the same thing as a full dyno tune using wide band equipment, but better than nothing.

JMHO - Jerry

[Fullsac Performance]

I have taken a different approach since '09.
My last 3 bikes I just waited 'till my local (286 miles away) tuner gets a new bike, tears it apart, puts his pipes and mufflers on it, spends days on the dyno getting it perfect, then, I buy the same bike and make a run over there and say "hook me up"!
Never been disappointed. JMHO
 

That can't work Mike, no two bikes are the same lol.. Only Father Harley can share fuel maps, but that's not what we are talking about. A tampered Harley can only be properly retuned in a surgery suite with fans, probes, egg crates, fresh air and chit like that. Fuel pak, fuel crack, piggy back, all the same smack. If your not flashing the factory ECM your tuning with a dildo, its not real. I suppose one could still feel satisfied if they had never ridden anything better.
I'll pass on the diltune thank you.

Steve@fullsac.com

[HOGMIKE]

Steve:
A trip is in on the calendar for October
Guess I'll have to make a side trip to see you again!!!
 

[Ridgerunr]

"I suppose one could still feel satisfied if they had never ridden anything better."

Exactly 

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Steve you might as well give that up.  But  I do think many can picture your .. ahhh..... object you spoke about being firmly inserted into all of these guys that bought into this cheesy blue tooth auto tuners, piggy tuner ,.. one size fits all .. sure is cool.. 

[tervonenllc]

I love FP3 so much that I've started thinking of a tattoo to my lover back: FP3 with the cable going to...

I think somebody asked earlier if I can tell for certain that my bike doesn't "detonate"? Nope, I can't tell as I don't know what it even means. What I do know is that it certainly growls.  This "detonation" is said to be a "silent killer". Well, my bike has 1,5 years warranty left. If there is a sudden death or any kinda problem, I'll use the FP3 return it to factory tune in 30 seconds and then bring it to HD and ask them to fix it. When warranty runs out I'll get another one with warranty.

PS. Would love to see some kinda blind test done FP3 vs. dynoed. Remember those old ads where people were tasting cola drinks. I pretty sure I would be able to pick the one with FP3 every time, just like I'm able to pick Pepsi. 

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

So to be clear,... you are too cheap to buy the correct item and have it tuned for the parts you choose to add,.. and if it ( FP) creates the failure you are going to take no responsibility for your actions?? After all its your choice to buy it and you have already clearly stated you really know nothing about tuning ..
   
 There is a reason the warranty out lines things just like this.. I disagree with what you have said  100%..

   

[tervonenllc]

Besides not knowing anything about tuning I clearly don't know what you mean. FP3 is the correct item. To me it doesnt matter if something costs 300 or 500 or 700 nor does it to anybody else on this site. If it does, drink less, thats how I explain all unnecessary purchases to myself. Althought I must admit, at this point of time I cannot drink for at least thirty years. Thank God I was never a big drinker.

FP3 has the perfectly tuned map for VH Power Duals + Monster Round -combo. The sound, torque and power is monstrous. The engine runs like a dream.

You are correct. If the engine or whatever fails, I'm not going to take any responsibility nor am I going to waste my time trying to figure out whose fault it was if anyones IF the bike is under warranty.

[hdctss]

what fascinates me about this is the people who tune bikes, of course in the interest of their making money (self-interest) always criticize, but never actually do a direct comparison of one of these tuners, versus their own tune on the same bike...I guess they know the difference in cost between an FP3 or other downloadable tuner and their "dyno tune" with the additional cost involved would simply not be worth the money...go ahead somebody...prove me wrong, but I am betting you cannot.

[a206driver]

what fascinates me about this is the people who tune bikes, of course in the interest of their making money (self-interest) always criticize, but never actually do a direct comparison of one of these tuners, versus their own tune on the same bike...I guess they know the difference in cost between an FP3 or other downloadable tuner and their "dyno tune" with the additional cost involved would simply not be worth the money...go ahead somebody...prove me wrong, but I am betting you cannot.

The only comparison that I've seen - http://www.hdforums.com/forum/new-rushmore-models/1062917-gona-try-something-with-my-fp3.html#post14265153

[CVODON]

I read thru the link posted above, I got nothing from that, other than the guy thought he was a human dyno. Nothing was substantiated at all. And that story about getting money back then not getting money back... what??
Buy what you want and enjoy it, but don't post stupid stuff you have no way of confirming.

[a206driver]

I read thru the link posted above, I got nothing from that, other than the guy thought he was a human dyno. Nothing was substantiated at all. And that story about getting money back then not getting money back... what??
Buy what you want and enjoy it, but don't post stupid stuff you have no way of confirming.

"I forgot to say my FP3 dyno was 82 hp 94 lbs. He did about 25 runs with the PV and the best was 80 hp 91 lbs, but he said he got the power to the right places." So the FP3 did better than the Dyno - period.  I said that it was the only comparison that I've seen. I didn't say that I confirmed it. I can't confirm that you're an asshat but I'm guessing that I'd be right.

[tervonenllc]

"I forgot to say my FP3 dyno was 82 hp 94 lbs. He did about 25 runs with the PV and the best was 80 hp 91 lbs, but he said he got the power to the right places." So the FP3 did better than the Dyno - period.  I said that it was the only comparison that I've seen. I didn't say that I confirmed it. I can't confirm that you're an asshat but I'm guessing that I'd be right.

Excellent link, thank you! It is great to read similar experiences that I have myself.

Today while cruising here in Marbella, Spain, I felt warm inside and out. The breeze coming from Africa caused the warmth on the outside. While inside was filled with warm - almost hot - pure joy and love arising from everything that FP3 is and represents.

It is my true belief that Vance & Hines FP3 is one of the most remarkable inventions of our time. Right there with iPad and iPhone. It is simply put: flawless. I have a tiny box called FP3 and the latest iPhone. With this combo I'm able to do something in seconds which otherwise would require a garage, a dyno, truck load of fans and tubes and whatever plus, last but not least, a bank of - to be frank - aesthetically disgusting looking apparently Windows based computers. Seeing those ancient looking dyno rooms makes me think:

'don't they understand that technology moved on?'

I also have a confession to make. While typing this with an Apple computer, I can feel my beloved FP3 in my pyjama pocket. Later on I'm going to place it under my pillow. I cannot prove this, of course, but it is my opinion that FP3 makes me sleep better, too!

[Ridgerunr]

GMR, don't confuse them with facts/practical experience. 

I doubt a FP3 can add timing, might be able to take timing out, but I'd rather not guess.