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[Twolanerider]

a few years ago a local guy had a bike with sert - he changed the bike and decided to install a power commander

end of engine

obviously the power commander had no way of knowing that it was modifying a already modfied table.

That doesn't pass the sniff test. 

All any Power Commander (not PV but PC) ever did was overlay on top of the existing instructions in the ECM; whatever they may be.  It's just a +/- from what's there to begin with.  Nothing more complicated than that.

A new Power Commander starts off as a blank slate.  That means its installation doesn't actually change the tune at all.  Only when a map is installed in the Power Commander does anything change and that change is on top of the existing map within the ECM.

A too common Power Commander mistake wasn't a Power Commander mistake but an installer/user mistake.  Someone would download a Power Commander map.  That map would have been tuned on a bike with (for example) a stock untuned ECM.  So the PC maps's changes would have that stock untuned ECM as its foundation for all of its +/- alterations.  That downloaded map would then be installed in a Power Commander on a bike that did not have a stock untunded ECM, i.e., on top of a different foundation.  So the end result was remarkably different. 

That's not the fault of Power Commander on top of SERT though.  And it's not the fault of using a PC and SERT in combinatino.  That's the fault of an end user not knowing or understanding what foundation he was putting the PCs overlay on top of.  The PC would be doing exactly what it was told to.  The problem would be that the end user's choice of what it was told to do wasn't accurate.

[Heatwave]

a few years ago a local guy had a bike with sert - he changed the bike and decided to install a power commander

end of engine

obviously the power commander had no way of knowing that it was modifying a already modfied table.

particular combinations of tuners are not going to play well

if the current tuner on a bike has any sort of wide band auto tune - and you want to change tuners - you MUST put it back to stock.

best practice - install your new tune on top of a stock ecm

 - obviously you should not RUN a bike that is huge with a stock ecm - but you SHOULD install the tune with the tuner of your choice on a stock ecm unless you know absolutely that there is not something modified in your ecm that the new tuner will not play well with.

at least three tuners lock portions of the software to prevent engine damage. hd - tts - rev perf.

to

I'm not sure where you're getting your information. Neither HD's SERT or SEPST prevent another tuner from downloading the map stored on a bike's ECM. So maybe I'm not understanding your reference to "locking portions of the software to prevent engine damage". I can assure you that if a map was created by either the SERT or SEPST and downloaded to a bike's ECM, I could take a new PowerVision, mate it to that bike and pull whatever map existed on the ECM, load it to PV and start tuning from that map with the PV. Alternatively I could ignore whatever was on the ECM and simply overwrite the existing map on the ECM with a custom map that came with the PowerVision.

If I'm understanding the OPs original concern, TTS would prevent a tuner like the PV from either pulling the map off the ECM or even over writing the ECM with a new custom map after being properly mated to that bike. That would definitely be an issue from my perspective as it would also prevent a dealer from doing warranty or repair if the map on the bike was created by TTS software and not returned back to the stock map before the dealer performed work on the bike.

Maybe I'm not fully understand the situation but if I do understand correctly this would be a very significant issue to any bike owner tuning with this type of limitation.

[timo482]

sert and sesert do lock things - that tts unlocks - for instance - tts will allow the user to change the spedo settings - thats LOCKED by hd & cant be changed - but tts WILL change it and then locks it again. the software is not hundreds of lines of code, its thousands of lines of code & 90 percent is LOCKED by hd and stays locked even with sert. most of that stuff stays locked with pv as well.

when tts is done it re locks it

rev perf does all of the above

you have both arrived at the whole point - the problem with all of these units is between the keyboard and the seat. if a tts user actually follows the directions they can return the thing to stock in something like 2 mins. with the rev pert it would have to go back. with sert you go to the dealer and pay 40 bux and its back to stock.

the point that the pc would only be a problem if the person using it makes a big mistake - is the entire point. [stated with a bit more eloquence]

this is NOT turning a screw on a carb - its programing a computer. its not easy & when it seems easy its locking all kinds of things away out of view that do in fact need to be addressed.

next - sert will never ever allow you to download the stock program from the ecm.. tts will and some of the very newest other tuners will fetch the stock tune as well. none of them allow you to view or edit the stock tune. you CAN pull the last tune off a sert dongle - but you cannot pull the last tune from the ecm - you have to have a copy of what was sent to it. pv might be able to pull a tune - but ill bet it wont edit, just store.

[Steve Cole]

First off let's talk about Warranty work. If you modified your engine with cam, heads exhaust or anything non stock HD as supplied your warranty is already in danger. Does not matter who's parts your talking about here. Now let's say you did modify your engine and it goes into the dealer and they reflash your ECM, there goes your custom tune out the window and most tuners have a hard time giving the tune to the customers for some reason. Now HD has a locked ECM to start with, why is that? To keep people out of them in the first place. The PV, SESPT, SEST or Mastertune are all treated the same when it comes to warranty coverage. PV gets hit the hardest as the screen mounted on the handle bars is a dead give away that the ECM has been modified, SESPT ans SEST both mark the ECM internally so it tells the dealership the ECM has been modified and that mark cannot be removed. As soon as the dealer tool gets plugged in it tells them the ECM is tuned and it gets added to you warranty record at HD! Why do you think that HD did that?

So the ECM is locked from the factory and has to be unlocked to be tuned. TTS has changed the lock for several reasons, the first and foremost reason is to keep the custom tunes from being screwed up at HD dealerships. Next on the list is that there are several areas in the ECM that can be adjusted and not all tuners are equal. Some tuners only replace 1 of 4 areas, so let's just say the ECM is tuned in all 4 areas and then someone comes along and uses another tuner on it and it screws the ECM up since they only changed 1 area and now it does match the other areas. Who fault is it? Bottom line here is that if you follow the directions the TTS system is much safer than anything else on the market as it prevents this from happening. How hard is it to take a copy of the ECM prior to programming it? Takes all of 1-2 minutes! Now once you have the saved file you can store it on our website so you can retrieve it anytime you like or you can store it anywhere you like on several computers and hard drives if that's what you want. Anytime you want to return it back you can. The dealership tools all work with anything other than reprogramming. The next software release for the Mastertune2 product will also store the saved files into the interface itself so you will have a copy there as well. Anyone who owns a Mastertune2 unit will be able to upgrade this feature into there unit for free. So the product saves the original file for you, we provide a free storage location on the Web for you and soon coming it will be stored into the interface too.

Now if you failed all that we can still help you but it requires the ECM to come to us so that we can remove the programming and return it to you. All you have to pay for is the shipping if we have to do this.

http://www.mastertune.net/repositary.php   Tuning File Repository for file storage

All of this is being brought up now after it's been this way for near 2 years by people who are trying there best to make a mountain out of a mole hill, IMHO. Nothing more than trying to say the other competitors product is better when there is not one other unit on the market than can do what Mastertune does, when it comes to tuning and most of them have only tried to copy the Mastertune features but have been unable to perfect them. The self tuning was in Mastertune from 2008 when it was released to the public, now you have a copy in PV and SESPT but they still donot know how to or provided test tools to do EGR adjustments, cam adjustments and many other features that you get with all Mastertune products.

[Heatwave]

No one was trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. I think everyone was just trying to address the OP's question. I think it's important that there be multiple tuning products in the market for our Efi bikes. But I also think its important that bikers understand the advantages and disadvantages of the alternatives.

FWIW, I've owned the PV since it was launched and have had warranty work done on several occasions and not once has the fact that I have a PV tuner on the bike been an issue. I suspect however if the dealer was unable to access the ECM because a tuner was blocking his access, it would have quickly become an issue. And that would have been an issue that was larger than a molehill.

[slick813]

My original question was if people thought the autotune feature of the PV was simpler to use than the TTS. I have no problem with the TTS and how it performs, for me the autotune feature is a little intimidating and doesnt seem very user friendly. There are multiple guides and how to threads from different users posted on several forums and they all say different things.

Being able to autotune without having to use my laptop looks pretty cool, I just wanted to know if it was easier.

[timo482]

hmmmm - the dealer can always access it - they cant tune it

where did anybody get the idea that you cant pull codes from a tts bike???

 

even a rev perf bike will allow the dealer to pull codes - in that case as well the dealer cant tune it.

as for warranty - just because dealer x will do warranty work - does not mean that hd will cover warranty work. its simply not the same thing.

as for pv - it might be easier for a home tuner to get it better with less risk - but you have to put it back to stock before you install the pv. if the stock tune was lost via the tuner not following the directions, then you will have to send the ecm in to get it put back to stock. then the pv will work just fine.

to

[Heatwave]

as for pv - it might be easier for a home tuner to get it better with less risk - but you have to put it back to stock before you install the pv. if the stock tune was lost via the tuner not following the directions, then you will have to send the ecm in to get it put back to stock. then the pv will work just fine.

This is not accurate. I installed the PV on my bike (as has just about everyone else) and did not use the bike's oem stock map. In fact I had a heavily modified tuning map that was created using SEPST. After mating the PV to the bike's ECM, I simply downloaded the existing map on the bike's ECM (the heavily modified map) into the PV. There were no issues in using this map as the starting point for further tuning using the bike's existing map as a starting point. I never went back to the stock map and in fact don't even have the original stock map as it's irrelevant to my bike now. That is a fact and appears to be a different approach than TTS uses.

[timo482]

you and everyone else is free to do what you want.

just because you "can" do something does not equate to the best practice. assuming that you never modified anything on your ecm that pv cant modify all is well.

if however you modify something with tuner x that tuner y cant see there will be a problem eventually.

if tts changed your drive ratio - then you bashed it and installed a pv would the drive ratio from tts stay? or not?

and those related issues is why tts locks it. as it SHOULD imnsho

i do not trust pv - i dont trust power commander.

for that matter im leery of all the tuners - if i install a tuner and screw up - well its my dime. so im very carefull.

if i ever change tuner from what im using today - ill get it flashed stock first [its nearly free, done it before] and then proceed. for me my bike is way wayyyyyy to expensive to cavilerly throw good money after bad.

to

[HOGMIKE]

you and everyone else is free to do what you want.

just because you "can" do something does not equate to the best practice. assuming that you never modified anything on your ecm that pv cant modify all is well.

if however you modify something with tuner x that tuner y cant see there will be a problem eventually.

if tts changed your drive ratio - then you bashed it and installed a pv would the drive ratio from tts stay? or not?

and those related issues is why tts locks it. as it SHOULD imnsho

i do not trust pv - i dont trust power commander.

for that matter im leery of all the tuners - if i install a tuner and screw up - well its my dime. so im very carefull.

if i ever change tuner from what im using today - ill get it flashed stock first [its nearly free, done it before] and then proceed. for me my bike is way wayyyyyy to expensive to cavilerly throw good money after bad.

to

Agree, and add to that anything you install/change on your bike from OEM.
Heads, cams, etc.etc........it's on YOU!
JMHO

[SBB]

Agree, and add to that anything you install/change on your bike from OEM.
Heads, cams, etc.etc........it's on YOU!
JMHO

Mike I agree with your post above.

But can I make a different comment.
Sometimes I see TV commercials that say,
"Push, Tow or Drag your car to our lot and we will give you $3K trade in allowance."
Isn't the $150.00 offer the same?
The push, tow or drag scenario works for an uninformed buyer IMHO.
I generally think that most Harley owners (and especially the members here) see through that BS.
Why not just reduce the price by $150.00 rather than wave some carrot that means nothing?

 

SBB

[Heatwave]

i do not trust pv - i dont trust power commander.

for that matter im leery of all the tuners - if i install a tuner and screw up - well its my dime. so im very carefull.

if i ever change tuner from what im using today - ill get it flashed stock first [its nearly free, done it before] and then proceed. for me my bike is way wayyyyyy to expensive to cavilerly throw good money after bad.

I certainly understand your point however trust should be based on experience. And unless you have direct experience with a product, I'm not sure how you can either trust or distrust it. From personal experience with both SEPST and PV they are excellent tuning products and work just as most owners would expect without limiting the owner's ability to move to another tuning product. I believe that was the original intent of this thread. Since I have no experience with TTS only those using it can answer that question. Good luck to the OP should he pull the trigger on his original question. I personally don't think you would be disappointed.

[Heatwave]

My original question was if people thought the autotune feature of the PV was simpler to use than the TTS. I have no problem with the TTS and how it performs, for me the autotune feature is a little intimidating and doesnt seem very user friendly. There are multiple guides and how to threads from different users posted on several forums and they all say different things.

Being able to autotune without having to use my laptop looks pretty cool, I just wanted to know if it was easier.

For the record, Autotune on the PV is a one button process. Press the button, ride the bike for 20-30 minutes, press another button to update the map with the info from your data collection ride and ride off with the new map. No laptop, no reading any files, no fuss. It shouldn't be confused with a a deep dive tune as it won't raise spark advance based on the collected data, but if you are satisfied with your current map's spark advance, the PV's autotune will dial in the VEs across the entire map regardless of whether its an open loop map, closed loop map or mixed (using the stock O2 sensors). You can conduct the entire autotune process and never leave your bike seat if you have the PV installed on your handlebar.

[Steve Cole]

I think most can see through the marketing hype once they have an understanding of what can and does happen in the field. The PV, SESPT, SEST and others all can tune a bike. Its just a matter of what your looking for. All of the supposed new features have been in Mastertune all along but we do use a PC and some do not like that. We understand that, and know it's not for everyone but with that said it's also a joke when these others come along and claim a new feature when all they did was to add a feature from Mastertune to what they were already selling. Not new but new to them.

Heatwave

As for tuning Open Loop with a PV automatically, that's just more marketing hype. When in open loop the ECM only issues the programmed information and no corrections are being made. There is no feedback to the ECM to correct it. What can be done is to apply what you learned in Closed loop to the Open loop area and that has been in Mastertune since it was released to the public in 2008. Again not a new feature but it  maybe new to PV. While I do not use the PV daily I have used it and there is more to it than pushing just one button as you describe and if your going to create a base calibration you still need to use a PC to load it into the PV unit itself. While you can do some tuning from the PV itself it still has it's limits then your back to the PC again. Its a nice unit and has its place but donot for a moment think it can do what Mastertune is capable of doing.

[cvo1717]

Talked to steve cole today he said that since I do not have my factory map saved ,I can download the tune in the bike and send it to him.Then he can either send it back as an MT8 file that i can adjust,download new map etc.or he can set it back to stock like MTE file which I can then retune with a different tuning device if I wish Too.