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[conmore]

Hi there

This request for advice in making a decision might open a can of worms, but I’m kind of hoping not.
With the weather getting more stable and little warmer my thoughts are back to riding. One of the modifications I had planned on getting done this season was to swap out the headers and get the bike dyno tuned at the same time. Sometime back a buddy of mine sold me a set of original headers that have had the cat removed and the job has been done very professionally. The welding is 1st class. I have installed 2.00” Fullsac baffles with new packing material into the original mufflers.

So today, I contacted a well-regarded and respected dyno tuner to book in the work and discuss what I wanted done. His first comment was not to use the de-catted headers because even though they are less restrictive and lower the heat issue and even after a dyno tune using his custom maps they will not perform nearly as well as a set of V &H Power Duals. I’ve seen these headers and read a little about them but have no experience with them. His reasoning was lengthy and I won’t go into it here but one of the issues he mentioned was loss of torque with the modified de-catted headers.

It’s not so much a question of cost but making sure I end up with the best results I guess. My riding style is not flat stick high RPM although I like to do that now and again but more having power in the middle for overtaking and pulling hard if I need to.

What it boils down to is: De-catted headers vs V&H Power Duals?


Cheers

[willyB]

I run a de-catted stock header and until I decide to tear the motor down and add cams, pistons, etc I just can't justify very very minimal gains by swapping to a new header.

I've read on here that the Fulsac and FuelMoto 2-1-2 headers perform better than the V&H Power Duals but again what's the true difference on stock motors.

Since money is no object why not build your motor to truly take advantage of a better performing header? 

[tlr]

I had a decatted header on my 09 SERG with Full Sac 2.25 cores.  after riding it a year i swapped to the V&H Power Duals and quite frankly I couldn't feel much of a difference.  I then swapped out the 2.25 cores to V&H Hi Outputs.  The sound certainly changed but I still couldn't feel a real difference.  So in the end my vote, IMHO is to stay with decatted, unless you want a different look.  I am sure that on a dyno there would be a difference, i just didn't feel one.  Hope this helps.

[GC_Super]

I think all dyno operators, builders, etc all have thier favorites, but for most of us, the difference in feel is negligeable. Take two bikes that are 3 to 5 hp and tq different and  I'll wager that most will not be able to tell the difference. I just purchased a 14 Limited and had to go thru the pipe decision again. My purchasing dealer offered to remove the cat from the stock header. They have a good welder and do quite a few that way. I chose the V&H power duals cause I liked the look and they came in black.

[owl893]

I just installed the V&H Power Duals, you CAN do this mod yourself, but I would suggest that you have a lift or bike jack.  If you decide to do this, send me a personal message and I can give you a tip or two over and above the videos (which are good).  The heat issue no longer exists, Power duals have no cat, so flow is increased. Back pressure is provided by the "collector" which is the X shaped piece under the transmission. I had V&H Hi-Output slip-ons already so I merely re-installed them.  The sound is throaty, but not obnoxious.  V&H provides and RECOMMENDS isolating the 02 sensors with the inserts in the kit, this takes the 02 sensors off-line. This is necessary if you use their Fuel-Pac, which I also used. I am pleased with the results, however, I am NOT a performance guy, if you are, then skip the Fuel-Pac, add a tuner (Race Tuner, TT or similar) and find a good tech with a Dyno.

OWL

[ultrarider123]

So today, I contacted a well-regarded and respected dyno tuner to book in the work and discuss what I wanted done. His first comment was not to use the de-catted headers because even though they are less restrictive and lower the heat issue and even after a dyno tune using his custom maps they will not perform nearly as well as a set of V &H Power Duals. I’ve seen these headers and read a little about them but have no experience with them. His reasoning was lengthy and I won’t go into it here but one of the issues he mentioned was loss of torque with the modified de-catted headers.

My first question would be is the tuner attempting to sell you the V&H Power Duals prior to performing the tune?  If so, that tells the story why he "prefers" the V&H.

Nothing against the V&H system(s) at all nor anything against the Fulsac equipment (although I prefer the ability to look stock using the stock heatshields the Fulsac system offers).  I went with the stock header with the cat removed route and could not be happier.  Tuned, I'm getting 95HP/110lb/ft of torque with that "open" header with no other modifications.  I like the idea of looking stock but not being that way....sorta stealthy in that respect.

Good luck in whichever route you take...

[60FLH]

Wow. Pretty presumptuous to say the tuner is only recommending the pipe to make $$ if he sells them. It's one of the best pipes out there.

[remington007]

On a stock engine level its hard to see the difference in power either way. Now add cams and head work the story changes. Then power duals or X-pipes always make more power and torque. There are COMBINATIONS that work well together, builders and tuners know this!

[Dan_Lockwood]

Wow. Pretty presumptuous to say the tuner is only recommending the pipe to make $$ if he sells them. It's one of the best pipes out there.

I don’t think anyone here is arguing that the V&H Power Duals is not a great pipe, but for the extra money for parts and labor, is it really worth the minimal performance increase on a stage 1 setup?  And he already has the de-catted header from a friend.

The tuner was not incorrect when he said that he would get “more” out of the V&H setup over the de-catted header, he will.  But again, is it worth it?

I had an ’08 SERK with V&H True Dual and their oval slipons with a PCIII dyno tuned.  It ran great, but my ’09 SERG with a de-catted header, Fullsac 2” baffles along with Fullsac’s dyno proven canned map and their TTS Mastertune, runs even better with a good sound, lower heat and stock appearance.

Just my opinion, but I’d go with the de-catted header, Fullsac 2" baffles and have it dyno’d.  Get on it and ride like the wind!

[ultrarider123]

Wow. Pretty presumptuous to say the tuner is only recommending the pipe to make $$ if he sells them. It's one of the best pipes out there.

Obviously, you didn't read my entire post. 

[timo482]

Anybody anywhere that disables the o2 sensors is to be run away from as fast as you can.

If you really want to go open loop, get a older bike. Doing that to a new bike is asking for trouble

To

[SBB]

Obviously, you didn't read my entire post. 

I read it.
I understood it.
And I agree with it.

 


SBB

[conmore]

Hi there

I had a feeling this topic would create informative discussion and it's enlightening. I understand the influence of a less restrictive exhaust system over what is shipped stock here to Australia (to conform to the very heavy EPA requirements). In one post there was a suggestion that the dyno tuner may have an interest in selling me a set of Power Duals, and that did cross my mind, I must admit.

The bike feels good the way it is albeit, a little rough on idle cold and a minor amount of decel pop since fitting the 2.00" Fullsac baffles but it's nothing to be concerned about. My buddy who sold me the de-catted set is also a forum member had the de-catted headers installed on his bike with a set of Monster Rounds, had it dyno tuned and is pleased with the results. The tuner I contacted is much closer to me than his, which is why I went that route and opened up his comments for discussion.

I've read the replies here with great interest. One thing I will say is that although the Power Duals are well liked and do the job properly I'm not a great fan of them cosmetically and prefer the look of the standard set-up, which again leans me towards the de-catted header.

Cheers

[FlaHeatWave]

The V&H PowerDuals were on the '09 SERG when I got it. 'Like 'em just fine, I do think that they look better on some bikes than others.

I do like the look of the stock heat shields used on the FuelMoto or Fullsac pipes better, but not enough to change them out

[Dan_Lockwood]

One thing I would like to offer as an observation is this.  With the de-catted header and 2" Fullsac baffles, I can clearly hear more noise from the right side than the left side.

I know that in the open chamber of the de-catted stock header, the right side pipe is the most direct path for the exhaust pulses than the left.  Also the left has the crushed crossover pipe that runs under the bike which also provides a bit more restriction to the left side.

On the V&H Power Duals, does the crushed crossover pipe get replaces as part of the header?  I believe that the Fullsac "X" pipes come with a round crossover pipe as part of his header upgrade.

Again, for me I'm very happy with my ride's performance and sound.  The V&H ovals I had on my '08 SERK had a great rumble to them at idle, but for my touring interests were a bit loud when trying to listen to tunes via speakers.  The 2" Fullsac baffles really sound nice and open up when on the get go, but while cruising quiet down very nicely and tunes are easily heard, back to the BSR wife.

Sorry for the rambling on and on...  But I will say this, the '08 SERK with the PCIII and dyno tune always had a bit of a pop on decel.  Maybe a better tune could have corrected that.  But with the Fullsac canned map from all his '09 SERG dyno tuning has run great for me and has no decel popping with very smooth power throughout.  I get great mileage as well, high 40's riding two up.

It sounds like Conmore has a plan now; good luck and let us know how it all turns out.