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[JCZ]

160HP bagger from BMW coming soon.....


https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2017/03/20/2018-bmw-k-1600-b-bagger-price-announced-usa/

https://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/bmw/2018-bmw-k-1600-b-ar176396.html

[mark]

Probably a great bike.  Would like to try one on a trip.

[SDCVO]

I bet it runs amazing, wonder if you can make it sound right?

[JCZ]

I bet it runs amazing, wonder if you can make it sound right?

Alan.....some of us have grown past the "sound" thing.  I remember telling Steve if I could keep the stock quietness and get rid of the heat, that I would have kept mine stock.  Not all want the obnoxious sound anymore.   I'm thinking a bike like this would be fun.....even for you. 

[Phantom309]

Looks nice, but I would go for the GTL with the trunk and all the goodies. I wonder if they still have the annoying slipper clutch? I passed on the '13 I rode years ago for that reason only ... other than that, way better ride all the way around than any HD.

[SDCVO]

Alan.....some of us have grown past the "sound" thing.  I remember telling Steve if I could keep the stock quietness and get rid of the heat, that I would have kept mine stock.  Not all want the obnoxious sound anymore.   I'm thinking a bike like this would be fun.....even for you. 

Your not saying I am immature are you JC?? Been talking to my wife perhaps??? 

[JCZ]

Your not saying I am immature are you JC?? Been talking to my wife perhaps??? 

Nope! Not at all sir!!  Just saying what I've told you before......on multiple occassions as I follow you around So Cal..........that you have an OBNOXIOUS sounding exhaust.....get it fixed!   

[SDCVO]

Nope! Not at all sir!!  Just saying what I've told you before......on multiple occassions as I follow you around So Cal..........that you have an OBNOXIOUS sounding exhaust.....get it fixed!   

Just trying to protect you from those crazy CA drivers...

[FLSTFI Dave]

I did a demo on the 15 GTL 1600.  It handled way better than my CVO road Glide, would corner harder and out accelerate it and out stop it.  I was interested in the GTL but no way to remove tour pack when not touring.

This looks real interesting.  Much better looking, and I am sure lighter with the same power.  Should be a real fun ride.  I'll be watching for it, and will test it.

[RGlideKid]

I'm thinking along the same lines as JC.  Even though I still love the sound, the pipe noise gets old after a while.
That being said, I've often wondered about a Beemer, but Patty says they (like a Wing) have no soul.  Heck I loved my '82 Aspencade!
But then she also said no way to an Indian also, but while we were at Eureka Springs we stopped by the dealer and she saw them up close.  Being a leather fringe kind of gal, she fell in love with them and lit all up.  She even wanted her picture taken on one.  I could skip the fringe all together and go for the hard bags - especially for some dumb reason that Indian didn't put locks on any of the leather bags.  Really dumb.
Time will tell what we do.  I still love Harleys but you gotta admit that Beemer and Indian are making some desirable bikes.

[JCZ]

I did a demo on the 15 GTL 1600.  It handled way better than my CVO road Glide, would corner harder and out accelerate it and out stop it.  I was interested in the GTL but no way to remove tour pack when not touring.

This looks real interesting.  Much better looking, and I am sure lighter with the same power.  Should be a real fun ride.  I'll be watching for it, and will test it.

That's what I'm talking about.  Harley has fallen way, way behind the competition simply because they haven't listened to their customers, they've been listening to the stock holders.  They're going to have to step up or step out....

The downside of the GTL (the tour pack can be modified to be removable....just like it can on an Ultra Classic) for me is the position that it puts my hips in when riding.  I've heard and read the same thing from other tall riders.  Other than that.....a very nice ride!   

[Road Dad]

Harley has always been behind competition. They have actually caught up I the last 3 years. Handling has always been crap and still is compared to most competitors.

But people buy a lifestyle not a perfect ride. It's the lure of thinking I have a Harley, I must be a biker, that sells.

I like my CVO but I don't have any illusions of what it is and what it is not.

[Chuck Pryor]

I bet it runs amazing, wonder if you can make it sound right?

As someone who has 70K miles on this engine I can assure you that it sounds just fine...

[Chuck Pryor]

.

[Chuck Pryor]

.

[JCZ]

As someone who has 70K miles on this engine I can assure you that it sounds just fine...

Chuck said he can hear the stereo just fine!  He said you don't need noise to go faster, smoother or more comfortable....   

[iski]

Chuck said he can hear the stereo just fine!  He said you don't need noise to go faster, smoother or more comfortable....   

When I was younger, it was louder the better for bikes. Stingers on dirt bikes, etc.  After years of Rineharts and D & D fatcats on Harleys, have decided that I like to hear the stereo instead of loud pipes.  I find myself giving distance to HDs with very loud pipes these days, even.  Ears ain't what they used to be. 

Your comment on the riding position is what keeps me away from Beemers. Just does not fit right.  If they ever addressed that, it would be tempting since the bikes run like a dream.  Have a couple of friends who ride them, nimble and quick & scary quiet.   

Looks like another good BMW, if I get the chance will give it a try.

[Jock]

Gotta tell ya I have been giving serious consideration of my next bike being a K 1600 GTL.
 

[tazmun]

Gotta tell ya I have been giving serious consideration of my next bike being a K 1600 GTL.
 

With the amount of riding you do, I'm thinking that may be a wise decision.

Taz

[tazmun]

Gotta tell ya I have been giving serious consideration of my next bike being a K 1600 GTL.
 

Another point, 160 HP, 51 MPG, and wait................. 794 lbs! I think Simon is on to something!

[JCZ]

x2 on both posts Taz....

A long way up from the 04 SEEG, Jock! 

[RGlideKid]

I'm thinking a 1600 tourer would be right fine for short or long hauls, with maybe a CVO Convertible or Road King for a little growl and fun in the stable as well.  Just so's you don't lose touch with that feeling of being a kid from time to time, if you know what I mean!

[SDCVO]

So I really don't want to be just "a homer" for HD but before I bought my 17 SG, i did go try a few bikes thinking it was kinda dumb to have my 2nd bike be almost exactly the same as my first. I rode the new Moto Guzi, coupe of Ducati's (yea, that was out there), Indian and the GTL BMW. Because of my job I actually can buy either a Ducati (thats why I tried) or BMW at their employee pricing which would have saved me a boatload of money over the CVO. Of all those bikes the only one I really considered after riding was the BMW. The power, suspension and lean angle was fantastic (as was the deal I could have gotten) and for sure if I was looking for a every day rider no question I would have bought the BMW but thats not what I was getting a new bike for. I only ride on the weekends (devastated if I have to miss one) and for me though I loved the ride of the BMW I just didn't get "that feeling" I get on a Harley. I tried to explain this to a couple of guys I work with that did take advantage of the BMW deal and love them but I just don't think they understood and I can't really blame them. Though the BMW has all of those great attributes I mentioned earlier, for me I just couldn't feel "its soul". I get that sounds like something that would come out of Hait-Ashbury in the 60's and usually I am as far away from that guy as I could be but there is just something about riding a Harley for me with all the BS that comes with it that I can't feel on or anything (that has parts..) else in the world.
Hopefully some of you here can understand what I am trying to say, God knows most people can't 

[FLSTFI Dave]

That's what I'm talking about.  Harley has fallen way, way behind the competition simply because they haven't listened to their customers, they've been listening to the stock holders.  They're going to have to step up or step out....

The downside of the GTL (the tour pack can be modified to be removable....just like it can on an Ultra Classic) for me is the position that it puts my hips in when riding.  I've heard and read the same thing from other tall riders.  Other than that.....a very nice ride!   

I do feel Harley took a step in the right direction with the 2017 touring bikes and CVO's.  Yet they still have a long way to go to catch up to the real companion if you do not have to have that Harley sound.  Right now it seem the F6B and now the K 1600 B have quite a bit more than any HD interns of performance.  The have better power, better suspension, better lean angle and better economy.  They loose in the looks department but not as bad as they use to.

I'm 6'1", so I will have to pay attention to the hips when the K 1600 B is available to test.

I'm thinking a 1600 tourer would be right fine for short or long hauls, with maybe a CVO Convertible or Road King for a little growl and fun in the stable as well.  Just so's you don't lose touch with that feeling of being a kid from time to time, if you know what I mean!

If I were to trade to the BMW or Honda, my 17 CVO would be the bike to trade.  For that Harley feeling I would keep my 13 CVO King.  It's 138 hp and 140 Torque, so it has very good performance, still won't corner with those two bikes.

[RGlideKid]

So I really don't want to be just "a homer" for HD but before I bought my 17 SG, i did go try a few bikes thinking it was kinda dumb to have my 2nd bike be almost exactly the same as my first. I rode the new Moto Guzi, coupe of Ducati's (yea, that was out there), Indian and the GTL BMW. Because of my job I actually can buy either a Ducati (thats why I tried) or BMW at their employee pricing which would have saved me a boatload of money over the CVO. Of all those bikes the only one I really considered after riding was the BMW. The power, suspension and lean angle was fantastic (as was the deal I could have gotten) and for sure if I was looking for a every day rider no question I would have bought the BMW but thats not what I was getting a new bike for. I only ride on the weekends (devastated if I have to miss one) and for me though I loved the ride of the BMW I just didn't get "that feeling" I get on a Harley. I tried to explain this to a couple of guys I work with that did take advantage of the BMW deal and love them but I just don't think they understood and I can't really blame them. Though the BMW has all of those great attributes I mentioned earlier, for me I just couldn't feel "its soul". I get that sounds like something that would come out of Hait-Ashbury in the 60's and usually I am as far away from that guy as I could be but there is just something about riding a Harley for me with all the BS that comes with it that I can't feel on or anything (that has parts..) else in the world.
Hopefully some of you here can understand what I am trying to say, God knows most people can't

I think there's a lot of people who get what you're saying, Alan, my wife and I included.  Even after all the complaints about quality and lack of forethought, and the elitism at dealers and the MoCo, there's still something undeniable about a Harley.  At the same time, they're going to lose many older riders (and many newcomers to touring) to a Beemer, an Indian, or maybe even the new Yamaha.  Or the inevitable trike or (yikes!) a convertible. 
My guess is that Kawasaki would be crazy not to get more into the market, and I think Honda would be foolish not to offer something more "earthy" to compete more with the Harley Tourers.
My wife and I test drove a new Wing back in the spring of '15 and as we came back to the dealer, Patty says in my ear..."you want to know why I just can't get into this bike?  Because it's got no soul." 
She was right. 

[FlaHeatWave]

Chicks dig Harleys,,, That's good enough for me

[iski]

Some of the comments remind me of something, from the past.  Not motorcycle related, but similar in a way.

In the 1980s I worked for the recognized US leader - quality, products, service, innovation, the whole package - to a segment of the food industry.  We had the highest prices, the biggest market share in our segment, and the best perceived quality. An American success story.  In less than 5 years, that plant was closed due to lost sales and a portion of that remaining business was run as a sideline for another plant operation out of another city.  Reputation was no longer good, quality slipped, prices and profits fell like a rock. Innovation was lost along the way, and service was terrible.

What happened?  Several competitors upped their games. They had always been competitive on price, but they became more competitive on quality and gave better service and offered good new innovative ideas.  Older customers - the basis for my company's business - began to retire. The new younger buyers were open to newer ideas.  The results were disastrous for the company I was with, and very good for their competitors.  I know, I went to work for one of them as the wheels came off my old company.

My point is: Harley is not immune to competition.  HD buyers are older.  Their competition has always been less expensive at least as far back as my memory goes - 1970.  What is continuing to happen is others are leading in MC innovation and HD is perceived as lagging by many.  Service for me is good locally, know of others who have not received good service elsewhere.  Since 2001 have only owned HD.  No plans to buy another brand at present, am very happy with my 2017 M8.  But at 62 years old, I know I am not the "future" for HD as a buyer.  That future market has to be younger, affluent enough to afford a luxury MC, and willing to spend on the HD brand.  HD has maintained that "future" buyer throughout it's history, otherwise it would not be here today.  HD has real competition, not just the bikes mentioned here recently.  I wish them well, and hope they never end up like my old 1980s company. Not knocking Harley here, but as others step up their games, HD would be better off ahead of them than playing catch up.

[RGlideKid]

Some of the comments remind me of something, from the past.  Not motorcycle related, but similar in a way.

In the 1980s I worked for the recognized US leader - quality, products, service, innovation, the whole package - to a segment of the food industry.  We had the highest prices, the biggest market share in our segment, and the best perceived quality. An American success story.  In less than 5 years, that plant was closed due to lost sales and a portion of that remaining business was run as a sideline for another plant operation out of another city.  Reputation was no longer good, quality slipped, prices and profits fell like a rock. Innovation was lost along the way, and service was terrible.

What happened?  Several competitors upped their games. They had always been competitive on price, but they became more competitive on quality and gave better service and offered good new innovative ideas.  Older customers - the basis for my company's business - began to retire. The new younger buyers were open to newer ideas.  The results were disastrous for the company I was with, and very good for their competitors.  I know, I went to work for one of them as the wheels came off my old company.

My point is: Harley is not immune to competition.  HD buyers are older.  Their competition has always been less expensive at least as far back as my memory goes - 1970.  What is continuing to happen is others are leading in MC innovation and HD is perceived as lagging by many.  Service for me is good locally, know of others who have not received good service elsewhere.  Since 2001 have only owned HD.  No plans to buy another brand at present, am very happy with my 2017 M8.  But at 62 years old, I know I am not the "future" for HD as a buyer.  That future market has to be younger, affluent enough to afford a luxury MC, and willing to spend on the HD brand.  HD has maintained that "future" buyer throughout it's history, otherwise it would not be here today.  HD has real competition, not just the bikes mentioned here recently.  I wish them well, and hope they never end up like my old 1980s company. Not knocking Harley here, but as others step up their games, HD would be better off ahead of them than playing catch up.

Well said, Mike.  My guess is a lot of us can relate to your story about the fall of businesses.  I know I can. 

[FlaHeatWave]

Some of the comments remind me of something, from the past.  Not motorcycle related, but similar in a way.

In the 1980s I worked for the recognized US leader - quality, products, service, innovation, the whole package - to a segment of the food industry.  We had the highest prices, the biggest market share in our segment, and the best perceived quality. An American success story.  In less than 5 years, that plant was closed due to lost sales and a portion of that remaining business was run as a sideline for another plant operation out of another city.  Reputation was no longer good, quality slipped, prices and profits fell like a rock. Innovation was lost along the way, and service was terrible.

What happened?  Several competitors upped their games. They had always been competitive on price, but they became more competitive on quality and gave better service and offered good new innovative ideas.  Older customers - the basis for my company's business - began to retire. The new younger buyers were open to newer ideas.  The results were disastrous for the company I was with, and very good for their competitors.  I know, I went to work for one of them as the wheels came off my old company.

My point is: Harley is not immune to competition.  HD buyers are older.  Their competition has always been less expensive at least as far back as my memory goes - 1970.  What is continuing to happen is others are leading in MC innovation and HD is perceived as lagging by many.  Service for me is good locally, know of others who have not received good service elsewhere.  Since 2001 have only owned HD.  No plans to buy another brand at present, am very happy with my 2017 M8.  But at 62 years old, I know I am not the "future" for HD as a buyer.  That future market has to be younger, affluent enough to afford a luxury MC, and willing to spend on the HD brand.  HD has maintained that "future" buyer throughout it's history, otherwise it would not be here today.  HD has real competition, not just the bikes mentioned here recently.  I wish them well, and hope they never end up like my old 1980s company. Not knocking Harley here, but as others step up their games, HD would be better off ahead of them than playing catch up.

Hold on a sec while I get out my HD (branded) Pom-Poms...

I agree HD has been doing something right for almost 115 years,,, They've been to the "brink" more than once...

I also agree that over the years HD has seemed to lag behind on Technology,,,

But remember that HD is a lot like the Porsche 911, evolutionary rather than revolutionary or stuffing revolutionary Tech in an evolutionary platform?

What technology do you think HD is lacking in their current offerings?? (aside from a Compensator that is not a wear item LOL! (One of my buds had 110+k mi. before he replaced the Comp in his '11 SESG and it was still pretty quiet!)

What do you think should be there that your '17 doesn't have??

Delphi Engine Management
Brembo Linked Antilock Brakes
Bluetooth Infotainment Center that locates Gas Stations when you run low
Big Rims / Tires with Drilled Floating Rotors
Maintenance free / good handling / long lasting Belt Drive

And talk about leading technology,,, The M8 is the only Non-Liquid Cooled Powerplant in its class to meet Future EU Emissions,,,Something that neither the Japanese or the Germans could do,,, Before someone brings up the new Yamaha RG Clone,,, who was first to launch??

Yea, that 160 HP Beemer gotta be fast,,, But even my Bone Stock '05 SEEG is fast enough to get you "Cuffed & Stuffed" in any State of the Union...

2 things come to mind that HD doesn't have;
1) An Electronically Adjustable Windscreen,, One of my Indian buds has one and tells me its a superfluous accessory, adds weight / complexity and once it's set to his liking he never adjusts it...

2) Electronic Suspension a la BMW,,, Ask BMW how well that worked for them,,, Had to Buy Back all the Bikes a few years back... would be surprised if HD doesn't have it in the future,,, possibly leveraging the Delphi MagRide? or maybe use the Showa stuff?

Thinking that HD has done a great job operating within / keeping the Legacy alive,,, the DNA is there all the way from the Knuckles to the M8,,, The Visceral Feel,,, The Soul if you will... and that's what people want...

Add that our beloved CVOs are rolling works of art,, At an International Destination such as Yellowstone, Miami, Orlando, Las Vegas, San Francisco etc... folks from all over the World are constantly taking pictures of the CVOs. Have never seen them take pictures of any other brand,,,

I'm West of you near Destin & Eglin AFB, and have been surprised at the younger folks 20s-30s on HDs,, mostly SGs,  RGs and bobbers of sorts... not many metric cruisers at all,,, a few sport bikes... mainly a large percentage of HDs.. surely a lot here are Military / former Military... Just wondering if any other parts of the country are seeing the same trend??

Whew! All this cheerleading is enough to give a man a thirst



 

[iski]

Hold on a sec while I get out my HD (branded) Pom-Poms...

Add that our beloved CVOs are rolling works of art,, At an International Destination such as Yellowstone, Miami, Orlando, Las Vegas, San Francisco etc... folks from all over the World are constantly taking pictures of the CVOs. Have never seen them take pictures of any other brand,,,

I'm West of you near Destin & Eglin AFB, and have been surprised at the younger folks 20s-30s on HDs,, mostly SGs,  RGs and bobbers of sorts... not many metric cruisers at all,,, a few sport bikes... mainly a large percentage of HDs.. surely a lot here are Military / former Military... Just wondering if any other parts of the country are seeing the same trend??

Whew! All this cheerleading is enough to give a man a thirst

 

Am not ringing the death bell for Harley, just commenting on how some industry leaders get too complacent for too long and then a competitor (or a group of competitors) comes along and cleans their clock.  Indian is eating part of HDs sales no doubt.  I gave them a look and passed - again - before i bought my 2017.  Why?  I like Harley better, overall.  Others have nibbled at HD market share for years, some are poised to take bigger bites these days.

Some of the things you mention - the adjustable windshield for example - would be nice on a Harley.  Not a deal breaker, but BMW has had this for years & works ok.  Suspension is improved - again - on my 2017.  Auto adjusted on the fly would be nice, am not expecting HD to innovate here, considering history and late adoption tech.  Was not always the case, early history HD was a true innovator.  It's doable, expect BMW to get it right.  Expensive to be the leader in tech.  Like ABS, some of the first systems were not so good.  Now we are taking them for granted. 

Complaints on my 2017 are minor but a pain.  I-taint screen - great radio with a GPS from hell.  Easy enough to have gotten a decent GPS, HD just did not GAS or again had little idea what people do with a GPS on a bike.  Harsh?  Yes and deserved, considering.  Overall my 2017 is far and away the best HD I have owned.  TQ is great at lower RPM, friendly power band and shift patterns make miles of smiles here.  Suspension - again the best so far.  BSR is happier too, love my 17 long time.

HD in my experience has not been known to be TQ/HP beasts out of the box.  Spend a lot on mods, yep, can make them run.  HP/TQ per cubic inch ratio could improve more, expect the wetheads will do better in years to come.  Sort of a shame on the V-Rod motor platform, that could have been more than it was but they decided M8 was a better horse to ride.

I see some young HD riders, God bless them, am glad they are buying HDs.  Maybe is just me, but at rallies and HOG meetings and in general - crowd just seems to be older, not as many HD riders in their 30s/40s as there were 20 years ago.  Maybe is just me, but that is what prompted my earlier post.  Older riders sell their bikes and talk wistfully about their riding days eventually.  Great for nostalgia and all, sucks for new HD sales.

Now for the part that gets me spitballed or worse maybe......  Other riders, on other brands, also love their bikes and are proud of their brands.  Sacrilegious?  Yep, no doubt many have already ex-communicated me for not drinking the right Kool-Aid and wandering too afar from the HD reservation.  No matter what we as Harley owners think - others love their other branded machines as much, some spend ridiculous money on them on all sorts of stuff (as HD owners do) and are as proud of them as we are of ours.  HD is the 800# gorilla of the heavy cruisers no doubt.  But there are a lot of other 2 wheelers, cruisers and non cruisers, and it is not the life fulfilling dream for many of them to own a Harley.  A lot of them never will, and will never want to.  If that segment increases, that is where the real problems for HD are.  And yeah, I have seen people take pictures of other brands at destinations, some of the ones you mentioned.  Years back I rode other brands.  No reason to add salt here as to other brands and their owner's opinions of Harleys.  Agree or disagree, have seen it firsthand - other bike brands have their aficionados too.

I like my CVO, am on the 3rd one.  Not much by comparison to some, but represents 10 years and running for me, so it appears I like CVOs quite a bit.  Just expressing concerns for the longevity of the HD brand, not specifically directed at CVOs.

Am to the east of you in the swampy hinterlands of the state capital.  We wander over to gawk at your beaches and bitch about your traffic on occasion.  Someday our paths shall cross, will buy ya a beer.


Also,

Rah rah, sis boom bah,
Harleys are great,
other brands are blah!   

[iski]

Well said, Mike.  My guess is a lot of us can relate to your story about the fall of businesses.  I know I can.

Not fun to watch, & thanks Harry.  It scattered us to all corners of the industry.  Most of us did well working for other companies.  Was just a darn shame watching that one run into the ground. We were "too big to fail".  That was the real problem, the mindset.

[RGlideKid]

Not fun to watch, & thanks Harry.  It scattered us to all corners of the industry.  Most of us did well working for other companies.  Was just a darn shame watching that one run into the ground. We were "too big to fail".  That was the real problem, the mindset.

The last company I worked for was in Aerospace & Defense and very well known.  I'd worked that career field since '85.  They were in such a tight niche that they literally had only one large competitor.  The smaller competitors were truly much smaller and took the work the big boys didn't want.  We fed product to the defense community at large, but especially Lockheed and Raytheon to name but a few. 
That kind of marketplace, when combined with semi-incompetent leadership (and a lot of in-breeding at the top), as well as taking money away from the best division in favor of sending it to the corporate site began to take it's toll on the business.  Poor decisions followed, and the demands of the stockholders and the quest for the almighty dollar made for even worse decisions and climate.  The company bought a huge corporation they had no smart reason for doing, and all the other sites have suffered since then.  The money went into that purchase rather than back into the core business where it was needed the most.  They bought a semi-loser for around $700 million when the rest of the company was struggling.  Go figure.
In 2008 they had a $25 million budget to implement Oracle (worthless for our line of business).  They bought the basic vanilla package with no regard to the complexities of our business then literally forced people to join the implementation team and give up their regular jobs.  At our division they initially had no plans to replace those people.  Needless to say they are still trying to fully implement Oracle today and have spent 5 times the original budget and still don't have a dependable/working MRP.  They made every classic mistake and invented new ones as well. 
Needless to say, I got out at the right time, as all my old work buddies are miserable now, and keep waiting on the next weird/bad decision to be made. 
The first decade I was there made for the best job I'd ever had, but the last years I spent there were not fun, and getting scarier all the time.

[iski]

The last company I worked for was in Aerospace & Defense and very well known.  I'd worked that career field since '85.  They were in such a tight niche that they literally had only one large competitor.  The smaller competitors were truly much smaller and took the work the big boys didn't want.  We fed product to the defense community at large, but especially Lockheed and Raytheon to name but a few. 
That kind of marketplace, when combined with semi-incompetent leadership (and a lot of in-breeding at the top), as well as taking money away from the best division in favor of sending it to the corporate site began to take it's toll on the business.  Poor decisions followed, and the demands of the stockholders and the quest for the almighty dollar made for even worse decisions and climate.  The company bought a huge corporation they had no smart reason for doing, and all the other sites have suffered since then.  The money went into that purchase rather than back into the core business where it was needed the most.  They bought a semi-loser for around $700 million when the rest of the company was struggling.  Go figure.
In 2008 they had a $25 million budget to implement Oracle (worthless for our line of business).  They bought the basic vanilla package with no regard to the complexities of our business then literally forced people to join the implementation team and give up their regular jobs.  At our division they initially had no plans to replace those people.  Needless to say they are still trying to fully implement Oracle today and have spent 5 times the original budget and still don't have a dependable/working MRP.  They made every classic mistake and invented new ones as well. 
Needless to say, I got out at the right time, as all my old work buddies are miserable now, and keep waiting on the next weird/bad decision to be made. 
The first decade I was there made for the best job I'd ever had, but the last years I spent there were not fun, and getting scarier all the time.

That is sad.  Similar in some respects to my old company, but yours is on a much larger scale. No fun watching a good job turn to bad. Your story is a disaster that did not have to happen. I was in my 30s in the 80s & had enough background experience to see what was going on.  There are only a few players left in that biz now.  Only one I would consider working for, if work ever became a consideration. Very doubtful, retirement is too much fun. Anyway it sure as hell would not be any of the companies I used to work for, including the last one.

I hope Harley has some good stuff coming down the pipe.  The 2017s have been encouraging so far.  My old legs would enjoy a reverse gear (standard) after a long day in the saddle and a desire to back into a parking space. 

[RGlideKid]

That is sad.  Similar in some respects to my old company, but yours is on a much larger scale. No fun watching a good job turn to bad. Your story is a disaster that did not have to happen. I was in my 30s in the 80s & had enough background experience to see what was going on.  There are only a few players left in that biz now.  Only one I would consider working for, if work ever became a consideration. Very doubtful, retirement is too much fun. Anyway it sure as hell would not be any of the companies I used to work for, including the last one.

I hope Harley has some good stuff coming down the pipe.  The 2017s have been encouraging so far.  My old legs would enjoy a reverse gear (standard) after a long day in the saddle and a desire to back into a parking space. 

I do too, Mike.     Well, enough about the past! 

We've hijacked this thread that started with the BMW touring bike, so here's a pic of the BMW I'd like to try out one day!   

[JCZ]

I do too, Mike.     Well, enough about the past! 

We've hijacked this thread that started with the BMW touring bike, so here's a pic of the BMW I'd like to try out one day!   

 

[FlaHeatWave]

Am not ringing the death bell for Harley, just commenting on how some industry leaders get too complacent for too long and then a competitor (or a group of competitors) comes along and cleans their clock.  Indian is eating part of HDs sales no doubt.  I gave them a look and passed - again - before i bought my 2017.  Why?  I like Harley better, overall.  Others have nibbled at HD market share for years, some are poised to take bigger bites these days.

Some of the things you mention - the adjustable windshield for example - would be nice on a Harley.  Not a deal breaker, but BMW has had this for years & works ok.  Suspension is improved - again - on my 2017.  Auto adjusted on the fly would be nice, am not expecting HD to innovate here, considering history and late adoption tech.  Was not always the case, early history HD was a true innovator.  It's doable, expect BMW to get it right.  Expensive to be the leader in tech.  Like ABS, some of the first systems were not so good.  Now we are taking them for granted. 

Complaints on my 2017 are minor but a pain.  I-taint screen - great radio with a GPS from hell.  Easy enough to have gotten a decent GPS, HD just did not GAS or again had little idea what people do with a GPS on a bike.  Harsh?  Yes and deserved, considering.  Overall my 2017 is far and away the best HD I have owned.  TQ is great at lower RPM, friendly power band and shift patterns make miles of smiles here.  Suspension - again the best so far.  BSR is happier too, love my 17 long time.

HD in my experience has not been known to be TQ/HP beasts out of the box.  Spend a lot on mods, yep, can make them run.  HP/TQ per cubic inch ratio could improve more, expect the wetheads will do better in years to come.  Sort of a shame on the V-Rod motor platform, that could have been more than it was but they decided M8 was a better horse to ride.

I see some young HD riders, God bless them, am glad they are buying HDs.  Maybe is just me, but at rallies and HOG meetings and in general - crowd just seems to be older, not as many HD riders in their 30s/40s as there were 20 years ago.  Maybe is just me, but that is what prompted my earlier post.  Older riders sell their bikes and talk wistfully about their riding days eventually.  Great for nostalgia and all, sucks for new HD sales.

Now for the part that gets me spitballed or worse maybe......  Other riders, on other brands, also love their bikes and are proud of their brands.  Sacrilegious?  Yep, no doubt many have already ex-communicated me for not drinking the right Kool-Aid and wandering too afar from the HD reservation.  No matter what we as Harley owners think - others love their other branded machines as much, some spend ridiculous money on them on all sorts of stuff (as HD owners do) and are as proud of them as we are of ours.  HD is the 800# gorilla of the heavy cruisers no doubt.  But there are a lot of other 2 wheelers, cruisers and non cruisers, and it is not the life fulfilling dream for many of them to own a Harley.  A lot of them never will, and will never want to.  If that segment increases, that is where the real problems for HD are.  And yeah, I have seen people take pictures of other brands at destinations, some of the ones you mentioned.  Years back I rode other brands.  No reason to add salt here as to other brands and their owner's opinions of Harleys.  Agree or disagree, have seen it firsthand - other bike brands have their aficionados too.

I like my CVO, am on the 3rd one.  Not much by comparison to some, but represents 10 years and running for me, so it appears I like CVOs quite a bit.  Just expressing concerns for the longevity of the HD brand, not specifically directed at CVOs.

Am to the east of you in the swampy hinterlands of the state capital.  We wander over to gawk at your beaches and bitch about your traffic on occasion.  Someday our paths shall cross, will buy ya a beer.


Also,

Rah rah, sis boom bah,
Harleys are great,
other brands are blah!   

I only agree about 100%

Yes, in the earlier days Harley was more of an innovator,,, The 2 significant modern day innovations that come to my mind are the Polychain Belt Drive and the M8...

I too expected the V-Rod to be more,,, thought with gearing it would be basis of a touring platform,,, guess Harley Owners value the Legacy Platform, appearance / feel...

'Appreciate the followings of other brands... I've owned and appreciated other brands along the way (Litre+ rice rockets) and still appreciate them to this day... 'Considering the new Kaw H2 for the Power, Performance, and Technology... maybe we can be ex-communicated together?? LOL

My first BikeWeek '77, a 20 year old on a Harley,,, I was a very small minority... As Posted earlier, not a lot of young folks can afford HDs much less a week at the big rallies...

15 or so years ago, (per HD) the average age of a new, first time, Harley buyer was 46 years old,,, wondering if that demographic has changed much??

Other brands have their followings,,, even Mopeds...

Was working in Wireless Telecom when the 800# gorilla, Lucent Technologies (Bell Labs) went under,,, Due to corporate gluttony more than anything else,,, Lost my A$$ on that one...

Yep, next time you're in this neck of the woods give a shout,,, I'll do the same


 

[iski]

I do too, Mike.     Well, enough about the past! 

We've hijacked this thread that started with the BMW touring bike, so here's a pic of the BMW I'd like to try out one day!   

Your pic is why I would want one as well as the reason why I should not get one. 

[iski]

I only agree about 100%

Yes, in the earlier days Harley was more of an innovator,,, The 2 significant modern day innovations that come to my mind are the Polychain Belt Drive and the M8...

I too expected the V-Rod to be more,,, thought with gearing it would be basis of a touring platform,,, guess Harley Owners value the Legacy Platform, appearance / feel...

'Appreciate the followings of other brands... I've owned and appreciated other brands along the way (Litre+ rice rockets) and still appreciate them to this day... 'Considering the new Kaw H2 for the Power, Performance, and Technology... maybe we can be ex-communicated together?? LOL

My first BikeWeek '77, a 20 year old on a Harley,,, I was a very small minority... As Posted earlier, not a lot of young folks can afford HDs much less a week at the big rallies...

15 or so years ago, (per HD) the average age of a new, first time, Harley buyer was 46 years old,,, wondering if that demographic has changed much??

Other brands have their followings,,, even Mopeds...

Was working in Wireless Telecom when the 800# gorilla, Lucent Technologies (Bell Labs) went under,,, Due to corporate gluttony more than anything else,,, Lost my A$$ on that one...

Yep, next time you're in this neck of the woods give a shout,,, I'll do the same

So many of us survivors of big mergers that were less than glorious....

Agreed, we see it the same way.  Cannot find current stats for average age of a Harley owner or buyer.  All the links were at least 3 years old.  Most showed HD leads in all demographics - all age groups as to bike buyers. 

It's a deal - next time here let me know, will do the same next time near Destin. 

[Ironhorse]

The Bimmers are excellent bikes, but I think they are getting too technical. If you think the new Ultras are a technical challenge, the BMW is too. I know someone who has the big bagger touring BMW and a standard service was $1,200. Buried in those charges was a $110 windshield adjustment. Every time the battery is disconnected the windshield goes out of alignment. This requires a special dealer tool download to reset it. Stuff like that chases me away. I can have just as much fun on my 11 year old CVO Ultra without all that.

[FLSTFI Dave]

I can honestly say, I am a long time Harley owner and on my 5th CVO since my first in 2009. 

After all the failed lifers on my 110's including the 15 where the motor had to be replaced with 44K on it at 2 years old.  I was looking hard at Indian, BMW and Honda F6B. 

Had harley not come out with the M8 I am sure I would be on one of the others.  The M8 is far superior to the 110 twin cam, power is better down low, it is smother, it is quieter and the suspension is improved.  This was enough improvement for me to buy. 

That said, I still think BMW and Honda and Indian will cost Harley customers if HD does not improve power and handling even more.