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[iski]

Well said, Mike.  My guess is a lot of us can relate to your story about the fall of businesses.  I know I can.

Not fun to watch, & thanks Harry.  It scattered us to all corners of the industry.  Most of us did well working for other companies.  Was just a darn shame watching that one run into the ground. We were "too big to fail".  That was the real problem, the mindset.

[RGlideKid]

Not fun to watch, & thanks Harry.  It scattered us to all corners of the industry.  Most of us did well working for other companies.  Was just a darn shame watching that one run into the ground. We were "too big to fail".  That was the real problem, the mindset.

The last company I worked for was in Aerospace & Defense and very well known.  I'd worked that career field since '85.  They were in such a tight niche that they literally had only one large competitor.  The smaller competitors were truly much smaller and took the work the big boys didn't want.  We fed product to the defense community at large, but especially Lockheed and Raytheon to name but a few. 
That kind of marketplace, when combined with semi-incompetent leadership (and a lot of in-breeding at the top), as well as taking money away from the best division in favor of sending it to the corporate site began to take it's toll on the business.  Poor decisions followed, and the demands of the stockholders and the quest for the almighty dollar made for even worse decisions and climate.  The company bought a huge corporation they had no smart reason for doing, and all the other sites have suffered since then.  The money went into that purchase rather than back into the core business where it was needed the most.  They bought a semi-loser for around $700 million when the rest of the company was struggling.  Go figure.
In 2008 they had a $25 million budget to implement Oracle (worthless for our line of business).  They bought the basic vanilla package with no regard to the complexities of our business then literally forced people to join the implementation team and give up their regular jobs.  At our division they initially had no plans to replace those people.  Needless to say they are still trying to fully implement Oracle today and have spent 5 times the original budget and still don't have a dependable/working MRP.  They made every classic mistake and invented new ones as well. 
Needless to say, I got out at the right time, as all my old work buddies are miserable now, and keep waiting on the next weird/bad decision to be made. 
The first decade I was there made for the best job I'd ever had, but the last years I spent there were not fun, and getting scarier all the time.

[iski]

The last company I worked for was in Aerospace & Defense and very well known.  I'd worked that career field since '85.  They were in such a tight niche that they literally had only one large competitor.  The smaller competitors were truly much smaller and took the work the big boys didn't want.  We fed product to the defense community at large, but especially Lockheed and Raytheon to name but a few. 
That kind of marketplace, when combined with semi-incompetent leadership (and a lot of in-breeding at the top), as well as taking money away from the best division in favor of sending it to the corporate site began to take it's toll on the business.  Poor decisions followed, and the demands of the stockholders and the quest for the almighty dollar made for even worse decisions and climate.  The company bought a huge corporation they had no smart reason for doing, and all the other sites have suffered since then.  The money went into that purchase rather than back into the core business where it was needed the most.  They bought a semi-loser for around $700 million when the rest of the company was struggling.  Go figure.
In 2008 they had a $25 million budget to implement Oracle (worthless for our line of business).  They bought the basic vanilla package with no regard to the complexities of our business then literally forced people to join the implementation team and give up their regular jobs.  At our division they initially had no plans to replace those people.  Needless to say they are still trying to fully implement Oracle today and have spent 5 times the original budget and still don't have a dependable/working MRP.  They made every classic mistake and invented new ones as well. 
Needless to say, I got out at the right time, as all my old work buddies are miserable now, and keep waiting on the next weird/bad decision to be made. 
The first decade I was there made for the best job I'd ever had, but the last years I spent there were not fun, and getting scarier all the time.

That is sad.  Similar in some respects to my old company, but yours is on a much larger scale. No fun watching a good job turn to bad. Your story is a disaster that did not have to happen. I was in my 30s in the 80s & had enough background experience to see what was going on.  There are only a few players left in that biz now.  Only one I would consider working for, if work ever became a consideration. Very doubtful, retirement is too much fun. Anyway it sure as hell would not be any of the companies I used to work for, including the last one.

I hope Harley has some good stuff coming down the pipe.  The 2017s have been encouraging so far.  My old legs would enjoy a reverse gear (standard) after a long day in the saddle and a desire to back into a parking space. 

[RGlideKid]

That is sad.  Similar in some respects to my old company, but yours is on a much larger scale. No fun watching a good job turn to bad. Your story is a disaster that did not have to happen. I was in my 30s in the 80s & had enough background experience to see what was going on.  There are only a few players left in that biz now.  Only one I would consider working for, if work ever became a consideration. Very doubtful, retirement is too much fun. Anyway it sure as hell would not be any of the companies I used to work for, including the last one.

I hope Harley has some good stuff coming down the pipe.  The 2017s have been encouraging so far.  My old legs would enjoy a reverse gear (standard) after a long day in the saddle and a desire to back into a parking space. 

I do too, Mike.     Well, enough about the past! 

We've hijacked this thread that started with the BMW touring bike, so here's a pic of the BMW I'd like to try out one day!   

[JCZ]

I do too, Mike.     Well, enough about the past! 

We've hijacked this thread that started with the BMW touring bike, so here's a pic of the BMW I'd like to try out one day!   

 

[FlaHeatWave]

Am not ringing the death bell for Harley, just commenting on how some industry leaders get too complacent for too long and then a competitor (or a group of competitors) comes along and cleans their clock.  Indian is eating part of HDs sales no doubt.  I gave them a look and passed - again - before i bought my 2017.  Why?  I like Harley better, overall.  Others have nibbled at HD market share for years, some are poised to take bigger bites these days.

Some of the things you mention - the adjustable windshield for example - would be nice on a Harley.  Not a deal breaker, but BMW has had this for years & works ok.  Suspension is improved - again - on my 2017.  Auto adjusted on the fly would be nice, am not expecting HD to innovate here, considering history and late adoption tech.  Was not always the case, early history HD was a true innovator.  It's doable, expect BMW to get it right.  Expensive to be the leader in tech.  Like ABS, some of the first systems were not so good.  Now we are taking them for granted. 

Complaints on my 2017 are minor but a pain.  I-taint screen - great radio with a GPS from hell.  Easy enough to have gotten a decent GPS, HD just did not GAS or again had little idea what people do with a GPS on a bike.  Harsh?  Yes and deserved, considering.  Overall my 2017 is far and away the best HD I have owned.  TQ is great at lower RPM, friendly power band and shift patterns make miles of smiles here.  Suspension - again the best so far.  BSR is happier too, love my 17 long time.

HD in my experience has not been known to be TQ/HP beasts out of the box.  Spend a lot on mods, yep, can make them run.  HP/TQ per cubic inch ratio could improve more, expect the wetheads will do better in years to come.  Sort of a shame on the V-Rod motor platform, that could have been more than it was but they decided M8 was a better horse to ride.

I see some young HD riders, God bless them, am glad they are buying HDs.  Maybe is just me, but at rallies and HOG meetings and in general - crowd just seems to be older, not as many HD riders in their 30s/40s as there were 20 years ago.  Maybe is just me, but that is what prompted my earlier post.  Older riders sell their bikes and talk wistfully about their riding days eventually.  Great for nostalgia and all, sucks for new HD sales.

Now for the part that gets me spitballed or worse maybe......  Other riders, on other brands, also love their bikes and are proud of their brands.  Sacrilegious?  Yep, no doubt many have already ex-communicated me for not drinking the right Kool-Aid and wandering too afar from the HD reservation.  No matter what we as Harley owners think - others love their other branded machines as much, some spend ridiculous money on them on all sorts of stuff (as HD owners do) and are as proud of them as we are of ours.  HD is the 800# gorilla of the heavy cruisers no doubt.  But there are a lot of other 2 wheelers, cruisers and non cruisers, and it is not the life fulfilling dream for many of them to own a Harley.  A lot of them never will, and will never want to.  If that segment increases, that is where the real problems for HD are.  And yeah, I have seen people take pictures of other brands at destinations, some of the ones you mentioned.  Years back I rode other brands.  No reason to add salt here as to other brands and their owner's opinions of Harleys.  Agree or disagree, have seen it firsthand - other bike brands have their aficionados too.

I like my CVO, am on the 3rd one.  Not much by comparison to some, but represents 10 years and running for me, so it appears I like CVOs quite a bit.  Just expressing concerns for the longevity of the HD brand, not specifically directed at CVOs.

Am to the east of you in the swampy hinterlands of the state capital.  We wander over to gawk at your beaches and bitch about your traffic on occasion.  Someday our paths shall cross, will buy ya a beer.


Also,

Rah rah, sis boom bah,
Harleys are great,
other brands are blah!   

I only agree about 100%

Yes, in the earlier days Harley was more of an innovator,,, The 2 significant modern day innovations that come to my mind are the Polychain Belt Drive and the M8...

I too expected the V-Rod to be more,,, thought with gearing it would be basis of a touring platform,,, guess Harley Owners value the Legacy Platform, appearance / feel...

'Appreciate the followings of other brands... I've owned and appreciated other brands along the way (Litre+ rice rockets) and still appreciate them to this day... 'Considering the new Kaw H2 for the Power, Performance, and Technology... maybe we can be ex-communicated together?? LOL

My first BikeWeek '77, a 20 year old on a Harley,,, I was a very small minority... As Posted earlier, not a lot of young folks can afford HDs much less a week at the big rallies...

15 or so years ago, (per HD) the average age of a new, first time, Harley buyer was 46 years old,,, wondering if that demographic has changed much??

Other brands have their followings,,, even Mopeds...

Was working in Wireless Telecom when the 800# gorilla, Lucent Technologies (Bell Labs) went under,,, Due to corporate gluttony more than anything else,,, Lost my A$$ on that one...

Yep, next time you're in this neck of the woods give a shout,,, I'll do the same


 

[iski]

I do too, Mike.     Well, enough about the past! 

We've hijacked this thread that started with the BMW touring bike, so here's a pic of the BMW I'd like to try out one day!   

Your pic is why I would want one as well as the reason why I should not get one. 

[iski]

I only agree about 100%

Yes, in the earlier days Harley was more of an innovator,,, The 2 significant modern day innovations that come to my mind are the Polychain Belt Drive and the M8...

I too expected the V-Rod to be more,,, thought with gearing it would be basis of a touring platform,,, guess Harley Owners value the Legacy Platform, appearance / feel...

'Appreciate the followings of other brands... I've owned and appreciated other brands along the way (Litre+ rice rockets) and still appreciate them to this day... 'Considering the new Kaw H2 for the Power, Performance, and Technology... maybe we can be ex-communicated together?? LOL

My first BikeWeek '77, a 20 year old on a Harley,,, I was a very small minority... As Posted earlier, not a lot of young folks can afford HDs much less a week at the big rallies...

15 or so years ago, (per HD) the average age of a new, first time, Harley buyer was 46 years old,,, wondering if that demographic has changed much??

Other brands have their followings,,, even Mopeds...

Was working in Wireless Telecom when the 800# gorilla, Lucent Technologies (Bell Labs) went under,,, Due to corporate gluttony more than anything else,,, Lost my A$$ on that one...

Yep, next time you're in this neck of the woods give a shout,,, I'll do the same

So many of us survivors of big mergers that were less than glorious....

Agreed, we see it the same way.  Cannot find current stats for average age of a Harley owner or buyer.  All the links were at least 3 years old.  Most showed HD leads in all demographics - all age groups as to bike buyers. 

It's a deal - next time here let me know, will do the same next time near Destin. 

[Ironhorse]

The Bimmers are excellent bikes, but I think they are getting too technical. If you think the new Ultras are a technical challenge, the BMW is too. I know someone who has the big bagger touring BMW and a standard service was $1,200. Buried in those charges was a $110 windshield adjustment. Every time the battery is disconnected the windshield goes out of alignment. This requires a special dealer tool download to reset it. Stuff like that chases me away. I can have just as much fun on my 11 year old CVO Ultra without all that.

[FLSTFI Dave]

I can honestly say, I am a long time Harley owner and on my 5th CVO since my first in 2009. 

After all the failed lifers on my 110's including the 15 where the motor had to be replaced with 44K on it at 2 years old.  I was looking hard at Indian, BMW and Honda F6B. 

Had harley not come out with the M8 I am sure I would be on one of the others.  The M8 is far superior to the 110 twin cam, power is better down low, it is smother, it is quieter and the suspension is improved.  This was enough improvement for me to buy. 

That said, I still think BMW and Honda and Indian will cost Harley customers if HD does not improve power and handling even more.