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Author Topic: Clutch again  (Read 1420 times)

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DCFIREMANN

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Clutch again
« on: June 17, 2017, 09:50:42 AM »

After replacing my clutch disks and installing a Baker Compensator, I am again having problems. So I'm going a new route in hopes that I can finally cure the dreaded hydraulic clutch problems. The original Baker Comp took a chit on the way back from Alaska last July. I installed a new set of clutches with an AIM 400 and the Baker Comp with the SOHB hydraulic chain tensioner right before I left on the trip. The clutch now slips when I am cruising in 5th or 6th gear and try to accelerate and I am running a stock compensator ( changed it out right after my trip )  right now.

So I am going to try the Barnett Scorpion 608-30-30011 clutch kit, the updated Baker Compensator, and Redline RL-600 dot 4 brake fluid. I am hoping to get this thing right finally. If not I will install the spare hydraulic brake master cylinder that I have for my 2004 SEEG. Never had a problem with the early models.

Be Safe

THE DAWG
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 08:18:33 PM by DCFIREMANN »
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longlast

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2017, 11:06:09 PM »

Just a thought, if you haven't already done the changes, when you have the the clutch and compensator of you may have a good look at the positioning of the main shaft bearing race. The race determines the positioning of the clutch hub and carrier. If the race is positioned ( to far out on the shaft ) it will interfere with the clutch engagement on hydraulic clutches. Cable clutch control can be overcome by adjustment, but not hydraulic, The race should be in the area of 2.5mm or I think that's 1.25 in ( but best check that out at your end) from the inside of the race to the outside​ of the drive belt pulley. Only thing is you need to pull the inner primary case to check the setting of the race but if you're having issues it could be worth the check as it being a factor on the clutch positioning.
I think the race is something that gets overlooked​ when it comes to clutch fault issues ( other than a worn out clutch)

I found on mine the race was installed to far in on the shaft from factory( no clearance between the race and the belt pulley) which caused bearing and clutch hub spline failure.
Just a thought, hope you get it sorted.
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2017, 08:27:08 AM »

Thanks Longlast. I will check it out when I take it apart.

My thinking on this hydraulic clutch is the fluid and slave cylinder. That is why I am switching to a 600 degree fluid and may possibly rebuild or chance the slave cylinder..  With all of the changes I'm making I hope to have a clutch that works and lasts.

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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cvofbme

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2017, 03:17:28 PM »

Just a thought, if you haven't already done the changes, when you have the the clutch and compensator of you may have a good look at the positioning of the main shaft bearing race. The race determines the positioning of the clutch hub and carrier. If the race is positioned ( to far out on the shaft ) it will interfere with the clutch engagement on hydraulic clutches. Cable clutch control can be overcome by adjustment, but not hydraulic, The race should be in the area of 2.5mm or I think that's 1.25 in ( but best check that out at your end) from the inside of the race to the outside​ of the drive belt pulley. Only thing is you need to pull the inner primary case to check the setting of the race but if you're having issues it could be worth the check as it being a factor on the clutch positioning.
I think the race is something that gets overlooked​ when it comes to clutch fault issues ( other than a worn out clutch)

I found on mine the race was installed to far in on the shaft from factory( no clearance between the race and the belt pulley) which caused bearing and clutch hub spline failure.
Just a thought, hope you get it sorted.

I'm sure your intentions are good but your post is full of bad/incorrect information/details.
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RayG

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2017, 05:23:35 PM »

Hey Dawg, what are you pushing for Hp. & Tq.?  My indy messed up my oem compensator and gave me a new Baker to install.  I cleaned the threads and took careful measurements only to have it crap out at 800 miles & and it looked really beat up.  I received a new replacement but installed a new OEM and installed the Compensaver by GMR.  So far so good.  I have the S&S 124 HC and ride it pretty hard.  I was told that the Baker is not recommended for high powered motors.  I'm sure their are exceptions.

Good Luck   
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longlast

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2017, 07:31:41 AM »

I'm sure your intentions are good but your post is full of bad/incorrect information/details.

Please enlighten me! On the parts of (bad/incorrect information) on a reread l would say the ( 1.25 in) would not be accurate but did say to check at his end. To be more accurate the race should be (0.100 -0.125 inch (2.540 - 3. 180 mm) from the front of the drive pulley to the race forward edge face. But that's not to say that the measurements are the same for all bikes year and models.

As for the race determines the positioning of the clutch. What would you say what the clutch hub bottoms up against when the clutch nut is tightened (if not the bearing race) ?

Just for argument sake,...you put the race onto the main shaft only half way, do you not think it would affect the positioning of the clutch hub on the shaft?

If I'm seeing this all wrong please correct me!
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2017, 10:00:16 AM »

Hey Dawg, what are you pushing for Hp. & Tq.?  My indy messed up my oem compensator and gave me a new Baker to install.  I cleaned the threads and took careful measurements only to have it crap out at 800 miles & and it looked really beat up.  I received a new replacement but installed a new OEM and installed the Compensaver by GMR.  So far so good.  I have the S&S 124 HC and ride it pretty hard.  I was told that the Baker is not recommended for high powered motors.  I'm sure their are exceptions.

Good Luck

Ray I already looked into the HP/TQ rating on the Baker. I'm going to be fine. The motor was done a year ago and has 25K on it. I still think the fluid is part of the problem.

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2017, 09:57:53 PM »

The install is now complete and I have good clutch. I still need to road test the bike (weather) so it looks like early tomorrow afternoon. Very quiet when I put the bike in gear ( no clunk) and it is a lot harder to pull in the clutch lever. It seems to be engaging about half way out on the clutch lever.

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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longlast

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2017, 12:36:16 AM »


Glad you got it sorted out Dawg :2vrolijk_21:
Mine is still apart waiting for the bearing race installer from your side of the pond. I apologise for the little rant I had in your post.
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cvofbme

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2017, 04:23:17 AM »

.......

As for the race determines the positioning of the clutch. What would you say what the clutch hub bottoms up against when the clutch nut is tightened (if not the bearing race) ?

.......




The Inner Primary Bearing RACE on your bike has walked into the MDG seal.  Do yourself a favour and use the S&S IPB Race or use Green Loctite on the HD Race hen you install it.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 04:36:28 AM by cvofbme »
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longlast

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2017, 09:45:11 PM »




The Inner Primary Bearing RACE on your bike has walked into the MDG seal.  Do yourself a favour and use the S&S IPB Race or use Green Loctite on the HD Race hen you install it.

Cvofbme Thank you, I do stand corrected!! I came on to post my mistake  but you beat to it. The race installer came today so I got it all back together today and as I was doing so it came apparent to me that i was wrong the race doesn't position the hub.
I had over looked the flex washer at the nut end of the hub  that stops the hub, that came apparent to me as l was installing the race and checking the new hub on the shaft before fixing it to the clutch carrier.
I got mislead by the race being too far on the shaft and the hub spline damage lead me to think the race played a role determining positioning "wrong"
Apologies Dawg,. 
And thanks again cvofbme for taking the time pointing out the error.
This is what's so good about this site helping with wrongs and putting it right.
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2017, 08:04:02 AM »

Cvofbme Thank you, I do stand corrected!! I came on to post my mistake  but you beat to it. The race installer came today so I got it all back together today and as I was doing so it came apparent to me that i was wrong the race doesn't position the hub.
I had over looked the flex washer at the nut end of the hub  that stops the hub, that came apparent to me as l was installing the race and checking the new hub on the shaft before fixing it to the clutch carrier.
I got mislead by the race being too far on the shaft and the hub spline damage lead me to think the race played a role determining positioning "wrong"
Apologies Dawg,. 
And thanks again cvofbme for taking the time pointing out the error.
This is what's so good about this site helping with wrongs and putting it right.

No need to apologize. It's all good. That is why this site is so good. It is a wealth of information.

Now back to the problem.

I bled the clutch yesterday. The fluid was very dark. I bled it with Redline RL-600 DOT 4 fluid. I am going riding sometime today as I am leaving for Tennessee tomorrow or early Tuesday. I hope I got it right.

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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johnsachs

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2017, 05:04:22 PM »

A little off subject.
When S&S developed their clutch years ago, they supplied it with the no slip race, and shims. This combo was used to locate their clutch assembly on the mainshaft. As I recall Harley had a patent on their location setup.  :oops:
John
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longlast

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2017, 04:57:44 AM »

Good going DAWG. Hopefully all goes smoothly for you have a great trip :2vrolijk_21:
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DCFIREMANN

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Re: Clutch again
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2017, 12:39:13 PM »

It was a smooth trip. But once it got hot it was making quite a bit of noise. Squeeze in the clutch and it would quite down. Not sure if I have a bearing going bad or if it is just a noisy setup. I did put 1100 miles on it before I changed the fluid. It was dark gray and kinda thick. So it now has some fresh primary fluid in her. I'll try it again and see if it gets quite. If not I will pull the primary and check the clutch hub bearing and check the alignment of the primary chain. All in all a much better set up except for the noise. I now have a clutch that does not slip.

Be Safe

THE DAWG
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