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[Heatwave]

I figured I would start this thread for anyone dealing with an oil sumping issue related to the installation of a Stage 3 or 4 performance kit on a new M8 bike.

Here's my experience: Bought a new 2017 CVO Limited in Nov 2016. Rode it a 1000 miles home. Love the bike. Upgraded to Stage 3 in December. HD released stage 4 kit in late Jan 2017. I figured what the hell, I would have done the stage 4 in Dec had I known, so I upgraded the stage 3 with the larger injectors, CNC Ported heads, SE 515 cam and 64mm throttlebody.

The Stage 3 was a very strong upgrade over the stock bike. A little softer than I cared for below 2500rpms but above 2500 made up for it. I only had a couple hundred miles riding time on the Stage 3 before I upgraded to the stage 4.

The Stage 4 was great across the entire rpm. I was very pleased and felt it was even stronger after I had it tuned with a FM Jackpot headpipe.

I started getting miles on the build. (now at 5000 miles) At first everything was great but I noticed rising temps and decreasing performance the longer I rode the bike. More than an hour of riding and the fun would start "running out of the bike". It would get sluggish to the point that it couldn't get out of its own way. Like it was dragging an anchor. Let it sit overnight and the bike would be back to being a rocket....but only for an hour or so.

I took the bike to Laconia Bikeweek for a week of hard riding in the mountains. I also had another bike with me so I split the riding between the 2 bikes. One day I was riding the 2017 Stage 4 and it was incredibly powerful. Nice cool morning with 93 octane. It ripped through the mtn roads as I led a group of strong riders including a former motorcycle racer on a sport bike. Very hard running. (Separate note...bravo to HD on the suspension. SIGNIFICANT upgrade over my 2010 CVO Ultra suspension)

After this early morning run (45 mins), we pulled over and shut down for about 15 mins. Got back on the bike and headed out on another run. Bike was a dog. Like a completely different bike. No power, running hot, couldn't get out of its own way. No engine lights. 50% or more loss of power. I nurse it to a gas station and call the local HD dealer for advice. The local HD dealer had a dealer rep in house and said it sounded like a sumping issue.

He said to turn the fans on (wethead bike) and let the bike idle on the kickstand for a while. I had no idea what "awhile" was but I think I let it idle for about 10mins. He said the idling would allow the high-vol low pressure side of the oil pump to clear out the crank before I started riding again. Sure enough the bike was much "healthier" after I let it idle for a while before riding.

I dropped the bike off at my local dealer today for inspection and diagnosis. Dealer had already gotten a Reference # for service from HD. I just got word from the dealership that HD authorized the motor to be opened up to inspect the piston jets. They are also overnighting a new design oil pump that will be at the dealer tomorrow morning. Dealer says he'll know more after the engine is fully broken down and the new oil pump arrives. Currently the engine is partially opened up and no issues identified so far. Good to see the MoCo quickly on the case!

This might be a good thread for others with higher hp sumping issues on the new M8s to share their experiences.

[SFC CVO]

Wow...thank you for this. I went w/ the Stage IV after reading ur past posts. I got mine done at HD of Ocean County. Glad HD seemed to be taking care of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lowflight]

Nice to hear that the problem has been identified and even better that Harley is stepping up!
 

[cmashark]

Hmm. Haven't noticed any issues with my stage 3, yet.  Any idea about availability of this new pump or what the change was?

[Heatwave]

Hmm. Haven't noticed any issues with my stage 3, yet.  Any idea about availability of this new pump or what the change was?

What I heard is the new pump has a smaller orifice on the sump side of the pump that increases the velocity of the oil being removed from the crank. Thats all I have at this time.

[skratch]

I was very pleased and felt it was even stronger after I had it tuned with a FM Jackpot headpipe.

great to hear that the moco is standing by you, especially with all the claims of warranty being voided by the above....

[grc]

I'd like to see what changes they've actually made to oil pumps.  This would be the third iteration of the M8 oil pump in less than one year, which seems rather ridiculous to me.  While it seems the scavenge side of the pump is not able to keep up in this particular situation, the real question is why?  Does the 117 kit increase the amount of oil being pumped into the engine?  Did they enlarge the piston cooling jets which would dump more oil into the sump?  Or are the pumps being damaged by crankshaft runout issues?  If you remember from other threads, many members have had low oil pressure issues that caused Harley to supposedly release a revised pump to fix that issue (no part number change so how does anyone know if they have the original or revised pump?).

Hopefully whatever they are doing to that pump they're sending to your dealer will fix your problem.  I would just like to see what is really going on to require so many changes to a very simple component.

Jerry

[Twolanerider]

 (no part number change so how does anyone know if they have the original or revised pump?).

Don't care what anecdotal stories have been shared second hand from service writers standing comfortably behind their service desks.  Still don't believe even Harley issuing a parts revision without a new or revised part number.  Only way you could even consider that would be to recall all existing stock first.  Otherwise no way to know what's old and what's new on the shelf.  Harley would do many things.  I'll believe service writers telling pacifying stories before I'll believe the MoCo FUBAR-ing a volume and inventory control system like that.

[Heatwave]

Dealership received new design oil pump overnight from HD today. After the bike sat overnight (cold)  there was 13 ounces of oil in the crank case when the pulled the crank sensor.. Twice the amount there should be. Tech took it for a ride on the highway and some twisties but I doubt he was out for a hard 1hr ride. When he came back there was 12 ounces in the case. The dealership did not get the tear down fully completed today. Dealership understanding is that the sump side orifice has been made smaller on the new pump to increase velocity. They have a 2 step instruction from HD after teardown.

1) They have been instructed to take the engine down to inspect the oil jet screws. They are to set trq wrench to 20 in-lbs., if it turns than the screw has backed off. If they have backed off, they are instructed to remove oil jets, replace with new gaskets and retorque to 30 in-lbs.

2) Replace oil pump with new oil pump. If everything else looks good during disassembly, they are to reassemble and it should be ready to go. If all goes well, I should have bike back tomorrow (fingers crossed).

[Heatwave]

Well things just got interesting. I spoke with my local HD shop this afternoon about my bike and also spoke directly with HD Corporate Tech Support.

The positives first. HD is standing behind everything and my local dealer has been great to work with as they have been for many years. My 2017 CVO Limited 117 Stage 4 engine was disassembled for inspection. Cylinder x-hatching looked good. The oil pump looked good. The oil pump O-rings looked good but now starts the more difficult news.

The piston oil jet screws were inspected for torque spec per the guidance from HD Tech support. The piston jet screws were definitely loose which I assume means more oil from both the nozzle tip AND around the jet gasket entered the crankcase at a higher rate than the oil pump is designed to remove from the crankcase. Which explains the excess oil measured in my crankcase. As the oil builds up, the crank is sloshing through more and more oil and there’s less and less oil for the oil pump to lift from the pan to the top of the engine.

Unfortunately, at this point the dealer tech described to HD Tech support that not only were the oil jet screws loose, but the crank and rods were “stiffer” to rotate than they should be. I had experienced high engine temps numerous times since the engine was upgraded to a stage 4 in Feb of this year although the oil jet screw issue appears to be unrelated to the Stage 4 kit. While there were no obvious signs of metal in the oil, HD tech support decided on-the-spot to replace the entire engine AND oil pan in the event there’s any bearing material starting to flow in the engine from the overheating. But that raises the next issue.

I have a Stage 4 kit on my current engine. Due to the crank and rod bearing concerns, they want to replace the entire Stage 4 kit once it comes off backorder. Harley agreed to pay all parts and labor costs for reinstalling the new Stage 4 kit. Until then, I’ll be back to riding a completely new stock CVO 114 engine.

Another issue is that I no longer have my stock throttlebody for the 114, since I upgraded to the Stage 4 Throttlebody. HD agreed to ensure the dealer has a stock 114 TB to install on the new long block/oil pan that is scheduled for delivery to my dealer next Wed.

I also spoke directly with HD Corporate Tech support. They were excellent to deal with and followed-up with my dealer regarding the stock TB and Stage 4 questions. They also informed me that the Stage 4 kits are scheduled to come off backorder mid-July. Dealer has already scheduled me for the Stage 4 upgrade on the new engine, fully covered by HD.

Good to see Harley responding promptly and with full accountability to make the bike as good as new. It’ll be just in time for a 7500mile trip to Sturgis at the end of July. Very interesting experience but I have no regrets on purchasing this new bike, even after this engine replacement. It really is a terrific machine. Hopefully these “M8 launch pains” are now in the rearview mirror!

[Twolanerider]

Really am just thinking out loud here.  It almost feels like something doesn't quite pass the sniff test but have to admit I'm not really sure.  The question that strikes me is:

How loose do the oil jet screws have to be to actually let significant oil bypass between the jets and the case?  Then, if very loose, what kept them from vibrating on off and falling down inside?


Don't I remember reading another thread recently where someone found the same screw lodged in an oil pump?

[Heatwave]

Really am just thinking out loud here.  It almost feels like something doesn't quite pass the sniff test but have to admit I'm not really sure.  The question that strikes me is:

How loose do the oil jet screws have to be to actually let significant oil bypass between the jets and the case?  Then, if very loose, what kept them from vibrating on off and falling down inside?


Don't I remember reading another thread recently where someone found the same screw lodged in an oil pump?

Good questions but i don't have the answers. I don't know what "too loose" means other than less than 20in-lbs of trq on the oil jet base screws.

[Twolanerider]

Good questions but i don't have the answers. I don't know what "too loose" means other than less than 20in-lbs of trq on the oil jet base screws.

That's where my concern came from.  Those screws obviously aren't that long.  What is considered "tight" also isn't very much.  If one thinks of inch pounds as the foot pounds they're more used to considering we're speaking of only slightly over one foot pound.  In other words only barely more than finger tight and definitely less than one could do with something like a small thumb wheel ratchet or even just a socket in your fingers if you managed a good grip.

Given that oil pressure is constantly going to be vibrating the housing and pushing against it if it were looser than its only minimal version of "tight" to begin with it's just hard for me to imagine anything staying in place very long.  Since you described the problem as somewhat ongoing it all just struck me as odd.

Hopefully the only thing that's important at this point is they're sorting it all and you're only going to be out a little time.  Harley seems to be bending over backwards to make this right (the cynic in me also wonders about their motivation this but I'll not knock good fortune) so here's to it all happening easily and as efficiently as the process might allow.   

[Heatwave]

That's where my concern came from.  Those screws obviously aren't that long.  What is considered "tight" also isn't very much.  If one thinks of inch pounds as the foot pounds they're more used to considering we're speaking of only slightly over one foot pound.  In other words only barely more than finger tight and definitely less than one could do with something like a small thumb wheel ratchet or even just a socket in your fingers if you managed a good grip.

Given that oil pressure is constantly going to be vibrating the housing and pushing against it if it were looser than its only minimal version of "tight" to begin with it's just hard for me to imagine anything staying in place very long.  Since you described the problem as somewhat ongoing it all just struck me as odd.

Hopefully the only thing that's important at this point is they're sorting it all and you're only going to be out a little time.  Harley seems to be bending over backwards to make this right (the cynic in me also wonders about their motivation this but I'll not knock good fortune) so here's to it all happening easily and as efficiently as the process might allow.   

Couldn't agree more. I hope it all goes smoothly as well. One note on the screws. On another site it was referenced that these nozzles have a check valve that requires a certain pressure in the nozzle before it sprays. Is it possible that with a leaking gasket due to incorrect torque on the screws that the leaking oil prevents the nozzle from actually spraying up on the cylinder and instead just leaks down into the crankcase until much higher oil pressure at higher rpms?.

[Twolanerider]

Couldn't agree more. I hope it all goes smoothly as well. One note on the screws. On another site it was referenced that these nozzles have a check valve that requires a certain pressure in the nozzle before it sprays. Is it possible that with a leaking gasket due to incorrect torque on the screws that the leaking oil prevents the nozzle from actually spraying up on the cylinder and instead just leaks down into the crankcase until much higher oil pressure at higher rpms?.

Had actually wondered about if the nozzles themselves were even spraying or not if loose and, if so, if that might have had any impact on the potential heating you described.  There's a lot going on there.....