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[Twolanerider]

Many here have already had their experiences with the water cooled bikes.  This afternoon was my first in any real depth; at least so far as disassembly and diagnostics are concerned.

Got a call late this morning from a rider heading through the area and was throwing codes suggesting a cooling system problem.  They'd called ahead and apparently no dealers ahead on his route had a pump.  Wanted to stop here and see if we'd be lucky enough to find something that might help.

Was really disappointed in the pump Mother Harley is using.  Not terribly dissimilar from some automotive pumps have replaced before.  Might be something you could buy at a parts store and swap the Harley end cap on too.  This thing, however, is built with a magnetic coupling to the impeller like an overgrown aquarium pump.  Surprised they aren't failing considerably more than we hear about.  Mothership just luck a lot of bikes don't get a lot of miles I guess.

This one hadn't failed mechanically or electrically though.  Not sure what Mother Harley uses besides (or within) the antifreeze that might gum up the works.  You could hear this pump grunt.  It obviously wasn't spinning with any appreciable speed though.  So took the cap off and it was gummed up so badly it couldn't spin.  Again, no clue what Harley might allow within the system that could gum one up so bad in 18 months and 18000 miles time.  Was lucky though in that could just clean the thing up and reassemble and, voila, normally functioning pump again.  Reassembled and the riders continue on their trip.  Just got a call and they'd stopped for the night.  No more codes and no more problems in their four hours on the road since they left here.

Mother Harley wouldn't likely be happy with someone disassembly their parts in lieu of warranty (then again they just might....).  If you're in a bind though it might be at least worth a shot.

[grc]

In view of past Harley practices, like selling a supposedly upgraded compensator in the SE catalog after the original design failed early and often back in 2007, I assume Harley will offer a super premium SE coolant, at $50 per quart, to eliminate this problem Don.  Or, similar to the ABS pump seizing problems, just change the maintenance schedule and require a coolant change every six months.

Funny how the rest of the motorcycle industry and the auto industry doesn't have this problem.  But there again, I think I've said the same thing about a lot of other "new only to Harley" stuff over the years.

Jerry

[Twolanerider]

In view of past Harley practices, like selling a supposedly upgraded compensator in the SE catalog after the original design failed early and often back in 2007, I assume Harley will offer a super premium SE coolant, at $50 per quart, to eliminate this problem Don.  Or, similar to the ABS pump seizing problems, just change the maintenance schedule and require a coolant change every six months.

Funny how the rest of the motorcycle industry and the auto industry doesn't have this problem.  But there again, I think I've said the same thing about a lot of other "new only to Harley" stuff over the years.

Jerry

Even given their sad history with the appropriation and integration of other people's systems and tech (because you know they buy someone else's) I was really surprised to see the inside of this pump housing.  It was almost muddy inside.  God knows the the little radiators are impaired.  It's also at least a little difficult to imagine where all the muck came from.  Obviously they've used products that led to the problem somewhere (or throughout) the system.  But it was both unexpected and sad.

Assuming the rest of the system is also suffering some level of corruption the little pump is going to lead a hard life.  No wonder they're failing so often.  It's easy to imagine greater resistance within a closed system like that leading to failures of magnetically coupled impellers in what appears to be a barely adequate pump to begin with.

[ultrarider123]

Something that I've been pondering on this topic:  Is there a possibility that there is some leakage from the oil lubrication system to the water side?  It could account for the sludge in a "sealed" system.  I know it is a separate cooling system but so is the oil and water system in every vehicle and if a gasket fails, you have water in the oil/oil in the water...

Just throwing it out there, fellers.

[RonandJanet]

When I look at the water in mine it looks fine and does not have any sludge in it.  Maybe there was some oil or something else contaminating the fluid. Is it possible to flush this system?  I never even thought about that before. 

[grc]

Considering all the leak problems in the first couple years of the Twin Cooled bikes, I couldn't help but wonder if perhaps someone thought it might be a great idea to put some Stop Leak or similar product in the coolant and thus create the mud Don found.  I wouldn't be surprised if Harley itself wouldn't consider dropping one of those pellets used in the auto manufacturing business into the Twin Cooled systems.  Unless the owner of this particular bike decides to enlighten us on the complete history of the cooling system on this particular bike, I guess we will never know.  I can't imagine the coolant itself causing the problem.  I can imagine someone dumping another product in the coolant, either on purpose or by accident.  I can also imagine the pump or radiators or other components having crap left in them during manufacture that eventually created this mud.  We will probably never know what actually happened, unless it starts happening to a lot of bikes.

In the meantime, I recommend everyone look for Screamin' Eagle Super Premium Coolant and Elixir at their favorite Harley store, flush and change the fluid, and repeat every six months.  Harley could use the extra profit. 

Jerry 

[WTF Chuck]

I have read on one of the other forums that some one found a replacement pump and like you said just changed the head and it worked I thought I saved the link but can not find it now. I will post it if i find it again.

[Twolanerider]

Something that I've been pondering on this topic:  Is there a possibility that there is some leakage from the oil lubrication system to the water side?  It could account for the sludge in a "sealed" system.  I know it is a separate cooling system but so is the oil and water system in every vehicle and if a gasket fails, you have water in the oil/oil in the water...

Just throwing it out there, fellers.

There aren't any gasketed surfaces separating the water jacket and oil galleys.  It would take significant porosity to allow it.  Enough so I find it unlikely that, even were it happening, some sign wouldn't be elsewhere as well.

[Twolanerider]

Considering all the leak problems in the first couple years of the Twin Cooled bikes, I couldn't help but wonder if perhaps someone thought it might be a great idea to put some Stop Leak or similar product in the coolant and thus create the mud Don found.  I wouldn't be surprised if Harley itself wouldn't consider dropping one of those pellets used in the auto manufacturing business into the Twin Cooled systems.  Unless the owner of this particular bike decides to enlighten us on the complete history of the cooling system on this particular bike, I guess we will never know.  I can't imagine the coolant itself causing the problem.  I can imagine someone dumping another product in the coolant, either on purpose or by accident.  I can also imagine the pump or radiators or other components having crap left in them during manufacture that eventually created this mud.  We will probably never know what actually happened, unless it starts happening to a lot of bikes.

In the meantime, I recommend everyone look for Screamin' Eagle Super Premium Coolant and Elixir at their favorite Harley store, flush and change the fluid, and repeat every six months.  Harley could use the extra profit. 

Jerry 

The owner and I spoke about this at length while buttoning it all back up.  He claims to have never done any greater service himself than to check the oil.  Did say when the bike was just a few weeks old it had a leak and gone in for dealer service one time.  He had no specific recollection of the fix though.  Hadn't ever leaked again so he just rode it and smiled.  So, unfortunately, not a lot else to go on there. 

It's no more likely that the dealer added good old Bar's Leak than it is some filthy OE assembly or reassembly was done at service.  It was a surprisingly ugly mess yesterday though.  They did call again about a half hour ago though.  Another 550-ish miles today in summer temps and no more problems.  So, hopefully, all's well that rides well.

[Twolanerider]

I have read on one of the other forums that some one found a replacement pump and like you said just changed the head and it worked I thought I saved the link but can not find it now. I will post it if i find it again.

I'd almost expect this.  Certainly wouldn't be surprised by it.  Delphi nor any other OE supplier isn't going to reinvent a wheel if they can pull one off the shelf.  I'd love to find a good cross reference from Delphi to Harley part numbers someday.  Lots of money to be saved at local parts stores. 

[fastfreddy]

casting sand?? have seen that come loose and cause issues, made a lot of money cleaning up that stuff, back in my automotive repair days

[HDMIKETN64]

I've owned a lot of Harley scoots over the years, but my new 2017 CVO Limited is my first water cooled MoCo bike. How often do people complain about cooling system issues like this? Is this an exceptional case or fairly common?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Twolanerider]

casting sand??

That wasn't the impression from this particular muck.  This was more mucky and less gritty than you'd expecting from casting sand.

[Twolanerider]

I've owned a lot of Harley scoots over the years, but my new 2017 CVO Limited is my first water cooled MoCo bike. How often do people complain about cooling system issues like this? Is this an exceptional case or fairly common?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Others other than me will have to speak to this with any certainty.  Only thing I know that one might intuit any conclusion from is that initially five than a total of eight dealerships he called didn't have the pump in stock.  Two told him no clue when they'd expect more stock.  The former suggests either a lot of inventory use or none at all (only reasons you'd not have stock).  The latter suggest something of an issue; at least to me.

[Chief2505]

With no codes and no temp light coming on how does one tell if the cooling system is actually working? The reason I ask is this...

I was 200 miles into a 300 mile interstate ride when both my wife and I smelled something funny, like something was burning. A really weird smell! After a few miles it went away so I gave it no more thought until a few more miles later I swear my right leg was a lot hotter than it used to be!

I kept forgetting to check the coolant when the bike was cold so after riding an hour in a mix of roads I stopped and checked the coolant. It was at the cold level. I thought that rather odd, figured even though the ambient air temp was only 75 that the coolant temp would be higher. The next day I checked the coolant level again, this time with the bike cold and it was at the exact same level.

Tonight we rode in 85 degree weather through towns and stop lights and open roads. I swear my right leg is hotter than it used to be. Checked the coolant when I got home and it was still at the full cold level.

I stopped at a dealer over the weekend and asked the service guy "how can you tell if the cooling system is working properly?" He stated it will ocsassionaly burp out fluid and you have to refill it. End of answer and he walked away.
So I stopped at another dealer and asked the same question and the first guy said you cannot hear the fans running. I gave him a funny look and said yeah you can if you are stopped and they kick in! So he gave me to another guy to talk to that told me as long as you have coolant and the temp light does not come on you are good to go!

So my question is since the coolant level never changes from cold to hot, how can you tell if the cooling system is working? Am I dreaming the extra heat? Like I said though, no codes are logged and the temp light has never come on.

Thanks