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[4fun]

Went for what was supposed to be a nice 200 mile ride. The bike (15 CVO Limited), decided it didn't want to finish. Started making a loud chirping noise, no noticeable loss in power.

Went straight to the nearest Harley dealer. The noise evolved into a more deeper sound, almost clacking. Seemed to be running rougher also.

Got there 10 minutes before they closed. The professional opinion was " that don't sound good".

Worst part, having to call the wife to come rescue me.

Anyone care to guess what they will find?

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[J.D.]

Sounds like you are in the club, but there's a chance you got it just before alot of damage was done.

[fastfreddy]

how many miles on the bike ?

[ultrafxr]

Sounds like you are in the club, but there's a chance you got it just before alot of damage was done.

Seriously doubt that unfortunately. By the time you hear this noise it's almost certainly too late to prevent major damage from fine metallic debris having been circulated throughout the motor.


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[4fun]

how many miles on the bike ?

8000. I know, I promised I would ride a lot more this year, but that seems to have come to a screeching halt.

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[4fun]

Seriously doubt that unfortunately. By the time you hear this noise it's almost certainly too late to prevent major damage from fine metallic debris having been circulated throughout the motor.


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Hope not, but we will see how good the Cornerstone ESP is.

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[J.D.]

More than likely lifters and camshafts are shot.  Depending on the amount of debris throughout the engine will dictate the extent of the damage.

[4fun]

More than likely lifters and camshafts are shot.  Depending on the amount of debris throughout the engine will dictate the extent of the damage.

Will find out Tuesday when they tear it apart.

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[prodrag1320]

Seriously doubt that unfortunately. By the time you hear this noise it's almost certainly too late to prevent major damage from fine metallic debris having been circulated throughout the motor.


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100% agree`d

[ckduallie]

WOW! Only 8k, my 15 FLHTKSE did the same thing with almost exactly 15k. Cam and rear exhaust lifter was ground zero. Got the entire engine rebuilt under warrenty and while they were in there I had some head work done and S&S cams too.

[fastfreddy]

8k ouch!! 18k on mine and depending on what HD offers tomorrow for the RGU line up... i may be getting some lifters replaced in the "rental" ...very soon

[coloradotom]

Trick is when you hear that chirp run it full wide open so you completely trash the motor because if you don't, they just want to rebuild yours, and who knows what damage they'll miss/overlook in their effort to save them pennies.

[fastfreddy]

Trick is when you hear that chirp run it full wide open so you completely trash the motor because if you don't, they just want to rebuild yours, and who knows what damage they'll miss/overlook in their effort to save them pennies.

good advice, will keep that in mind WHEN it happens 

[4fun]

Trick is when you hear that chirp run it full wide open so you completely trash the motor because if you don't, they just want to rebuild yours, and who knows what damage they'll miss/overlook in their effort to save them pennies.

I think I did a pretty good job trashing it. I have the Cornerstone ESP so let's see what they approve.

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[TN]

Trick is when you hear that chirp run it full wide open so you completely trash the motor because if you don't, they just want to rebuild yours, and who knows what damage they'll miss/overlook in their effort to save them pennies.

It makes sense what you suggest but I just couldn't do it intentionally, maybe, naw. 

I chose to be proactive on mine, but that's no guarantee it won't happen. I thought the rushedmore bikes came with SE lifters. or do they?

Good luck 4fun

TN

[4fun]

It makes sense what you suggest but I just couldn't do it intentionally, maybe, naw. 

I chose to be proactive on mine, but that's no guarantee it won't happen. I thought the rushedmore bikes came with SE lifters. or do they?

Good luck 4fun

TN

Thanks TN.

Funny you mention being proactive, about two weeks ago I was thinking maybe I should change the lifters, then I said nah, I only have 8,000 miles, I will be fine. Guess I should have went with my gut.

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[Twolanerider]

Thanks TN.

Funny you mention being proactive, about two weeks ago I was thinking maybe I should change the lifters, then I said nah, I only have 8,000 miles, I will be fine. Guess I should have went with my gut.

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That is just so sad.  That a modern manufacturer, supposedly using modern manufacturing techniques to modern machining tolerances and modern materials properties standards with a full understanding of the system they are applying all this within would have their clientele ever even considering the idea that a major internal engine component, with literally decades of history in its application and manufacture should be a consumable; and a consumable at less than 10k miles, is embarrassing for them and for us.  The only difference, apparently, between us and the MoCo on such things is that at least we care.

[longlast]

I had the same symptoms noisy tapping that turned into a clunking noise. After pulling it down found that the rocker carrier and rocker box bolts had come loose. The clonking was the rocker assembly lifting up and hitting the top cover.
Put in new lifters and cam bearings just the same. I think I was lucky not to of had no damage
Hope it's not down long for you to finish up riding goal.

[phato1]

That is just so sad.  That a modern manufacturer, supposedly using modern manufacturing techniques to modern machining tolerances and modern materials properties standards with a full understanding of the system they are applying all this within would have their clientele ever even considering the idea that a major internal engine component, with literally decades of history in its application and manufacture should be a consumable; and a consumable at less than 10k miles, is embarrassing for them and for us.  The only difference, apparently, between us and the MoCo on such things is that at least we care.

what, 200 run hours(assuming an average of 55 MPH) isn't acceptable for an internal engine component? These are air cooled- just like my lawn tractor so I guess 200 hours is about right, I fully expect to rebuild the whole engine around the time it accumulates 1,000 hours (about 50k miles) - sad but true 

[Twolanerider]

what, 200 run hours(assuming an average of 55 MPH) isn't acceptable for an internal engine component? These are air cooled- just like my lawn tractor so I guess 200 hours is about right, I fully expect to rebuild the whole engine around the time it accumulates 1,000 hours (about 50k miles) - sad but true 

If you write it that way ( MTBF=200 ) anyone from the outside looking in would not believe it's not a typo.

[4fun]

what, 200 run hours(assuming an average of 55 MPH) isn't acceptable for an internal engine component? These are air cooled- just like my lawn tractor so I guess 200 hours is about right, I fully expect to rebuild the whole engine around the time it accumulates 1,000 hours (about 50k miles) - sad but true 

I probably have about 200 hours on my John Deere lawn tractor running at full throttle and it is still going strong. Maybe I should put a Briggs and Stratton engine in the bike.

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[phato1]

I probably have about 200 hours on my John Deere lawn tractor running at full throttle and it is still going strong. Maybe I should put a Briggs and Stratton engine in the bike.

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The company I work for has large 2 stroke per cycle engines that run 24 hours a day for up to 10 years in between overhauls, that's 87,000 hours. And if they went down every 8 days for a failure of an internal component the fecal matter would hit the rotating oscillator....

[r0de_runr]

8000 miles.  My Gawd.

I swapped out my cams inner cam bearings and lifters at 7000 miles on my 2012. Glad I did.

Did a full head rebuild and lifters at 23,500.

Mine crapped out at 38,000 just last week. In the shop now I hope its just the EITMS or CPS or Auto Comp Release.  No compression rear cyl.

Good luck with yours.

[RonandJanet]

Wow 8K miles!  I was worried about mine at 19K and replaced them with SS lifters.  The old ones looked fine but I felt better afterwards.

[Toofast_28]

I probably have about 200 hours on my John Deere lawn tractor running at full throttle and it is still going strong. Maybe I should put a Briggs and Stratton engine in the bike.

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JD recommends lifters adjusted every 200 hours I do believe.  May depend on the motor you have (kohler, kawi, B&S, etc).

[4fun]

JD recommends lifters adjusted every 200 hours I do believe.  May depend on the motor you have (kohler, kawi, B&S, etc).

I will have to check on that, it a B&S engine. Have an older one with a Kohler with probably 10 years of use for grass and snow. Now just as a big snowblower, never adjusted that, still going fine.

I did have to adjust the valves on my generator around the 200 hr mark. Wouldn't start. That has a Kohler.

Have time to do it now that the bike is down.

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[Mano]

Trick is when you hear that chirp run it full wide open so you completely trash the motor because if you don't, they just want to rebuild yours, and who knows what damage they'll miss/overlook in their effort to save them pennies.

I did say I was on the highway.

https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=67702.msg1439708#msg1439708

[Finster101]

JD recommends lifters adjusted every 200 hours I do believe.  May depend on the motor you have (kohler, kawi, B&S, etc).

Adjustment is not replacement.  I turn wrenches for a living.  If a pushrod motor can go 100k or better in a truck how in the world does it not make it 8000 miles in a bike.  So far I have not had these problems with a little over 50k on the 08 Roadglide.  Seen my share of compensators though.

[4fun]

To all that are interested,  the motor is pretty much trash. Metal everywhere. I stopped in to take a look at it. Lifters took out the cams, metal shavings everywhere. The crank sensor looked hairy with all the metal on it.

Just waiting on Cornerstone to decide if they are going to pay to rebuild everything or put a new motor in. The dealer is pushing for a new motor rather then trying to clean everything.

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[J.D.]

"Another one bites the dust."

[Unbalanced]

Sorry to hear about the motor.   If they decide to replace the motor maybe the dealer will let you take the credit and put it towards a 120 ST or S&S Low Compression 124.

[4fun]

Here is an update. Finally got the approval today for a new long block motor.

It's been a month now that the bike has been down. I am not sure if the problem was with the Cornerstone ESP or just the adjuster.

First the dealer took the cams out and was told to go no farther till the adjuster comes to see it. They ask the dealer to do a detailed estimateto replace everything compared to a new motor. Then they say replace just the cams and lifters and they won't pay to open up the rest of the engine. If I wanted to open it up, I would be responsible for the cost of disassembly and reassembly if nothing was found to be wrong. I told the service manager to go ahead and check it. (I knew that there would be damage)

After opening up the other side, metal shavings were everywhere.  The service manager sent pictures to the adjuster as directed. Never heard back. The adjuster said he never realized the pics were sent. He came to see it again, and agreed the motor should be replaced but needed higher approval. Which finally came today.

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[J.D.]

Only 8,000 miles, that is truly pathetic.

Glad to hear though that you'll get a fresh engine and not just a repair.

[Eddie Haskell]

So some of you have gone in and replaced bearings, cams, push rods and the dreaded HD lifters. What happens if a catastrophic failure happens after that has been done?
 I have a 2016 110 CI engine and I have done those changes; bearings, cams, adjustable push rods and installed Woods lifters. I have the HD extended warranty and if something does happen what does the MoCo say? I would think they wouldn't cover anything once these things have been installed but the cam chest area seems to be a weak link in these twin cam engines so do they still cover the damage?


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[Twolanerider]

So some of you have gone in and replaced bearings, cams, push rods and the dreaded HD lifters. What happens if a catastrophic failure happens after that has been done?
 I have a 2016 110 CI engine and I have done those changes; bearings, cams, adjustable push rods and installed Woods lifters. I have the HD extended warranty and if something does happen what does the MoCo say? I would think they wouldn't cover anything once these things have been installed but the cam chest area seems to be a weak link in these twin cam engines so do they still cover the damage?


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If you've installed other than stock parts they did not approve you have bought any subsequent repair.  The choices are do what you can to (hopefully) avoid a catastrophic failure but have those and any subsequent costs be on your dime or ride it as God (Harley) intended and let it fail of natural causes knowing you are more ESP friendly this way.

[Eddie Haskell]

It has 14000 miles on it now and it runs pretty good, I'm sure if it came down to it, an S&S engine would run stronger



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[roadrunner]

Would it be good practice to have the lifters checked at 10K and have a stock set on hand to replace while in there (good or bad stock lifters)?

Or just wait for the failure, assuming you/I have the extended warranty.

Cheers!

[r0de_runr]

Would it be good practice to have the lifters checked at 10K and have a stock set on hand to replace while in there (good or bad stock lifters)?

Or just wait for the failure, assuming you/I have the extended warranty.

Cheers!

I'm not sure you can reliably check a lifter and predict failure unless it's the roller itself, or the needle bearings.  If you are that close (have the old lifters in your hand) just install the new ones.

If you want to maintain warranty, just have the dealer install SE lifters.  Can't cost THAT much.

[Texas 103]

Went for what was supposed to be a nice 200 mile ride. The bike (15 CVO Limited), decided it didn't want to finish. Started making a loud chirping noise, no noticeable loss in power.

Went straight to the nearest Harley dealer. The noise evolved into a more deeper sound, almost clacking. Seemed to be running rougher also.

Got there 10 minutes before they closed. The professional opinion was " that don't sound good".

Worst part, having to call the wife to come rescue me.

Anyone care to guess what they will find?

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Roller(S) locked up , cams junk, cuttings all through the oiling system. New Lifters (preferably S&S premium) , Oil pump, cam plate  Cams, Oil Pan, serious flush. May be time for a nice cam upgrade, if it's warranty work, and you have to stay with HD stufff, to keep the warranty..wink..then the SE 585 cam works well, if not, 24D, TMAN 600 and some others . 

 . Had the same thing happen to my '11. Chirping sound that got worse, you know the rest of the story. 

[4fun]

Roller(S) locked up , cams junk, cuttings all through the oiling system. New Lifters (preferably S&S premium) , Oil pump, cam plate  Cams, Oil Pan, serious flush. May be time for a nice cam upgrade, if it's warranty work, and you have to stay with HD stufff, to keep the warranty..wink..then the SE 585 cam works well, if not, 24D, TMAN 600 and some others . 

 . Had the same thing happen to my '11. Chirping sound that got worse, you know the rest of the story.

New motor just got delivered today. Going to keep it stock since I have the ESP and may need another replacement motor in the future. I love the bike, but don't have too much faith on the longevity of the motor. Since they decided to replace the entire motor rather then rebuild, going to another cam was out.

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[4fun]

Finally got the bike back late today. The new motor is running good.

Was only able to get a out sixty miles on it tonight.  Sounded good, oil pressure good, and just felt good to rode it again after almost 2 months.

Hopefully the weather stays nice for a while so I can get some miles on.

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[4fun]

New Update.

The bike is back in the shop after I started hearing a lot of noise coming for the front rocker area when starting the engine cold. The noise would disappear after it would warm up.

Just got a call and they said the top end is fine and seems like the noise is because of the lifters.

I guess the new engine was not so good after 650 miles.

They are going to put in S&S premium lifters at my request.

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[r0de_runr]

You might find that a tapping, or clicking sound from the rocker box cover area is an elusive demon.  I have been chasing it on my 12 CVO since I got the used bike in 2014 with 4 k miles on it. I have read countless posts from HD (and Indian) owners about the valve train noise.  Some bikes are relatively quiet throughout the rpm range.
Many folks blame the rocker shafts moving in their supports, and Rocker Lockers are the cure for some of these.  Other folks shim the rocker shaft ends, or drill the shafts and install locking screws.  Still others pay exorbitant amounts for lifters.
There is some indication that the steepness of the ramps on the cams are the culprit and this might be true. Or the angle of the pushrods, or the diameter of the top of the pushrod tubes, or the adjustable pushrod length if so equipped. It could even be the noise the valve itself makes as it closes sharply against it's seat.
Much like who killed Kennedy, we will never know for sure.  That clicking will drive you crazy if you let it.

I have found the perfect cure for it in my bike:
https://www.amazon.com/LG-Infinim-HBS-900-Wireless-Headset/dp/B00NW2JBYO

[4fun]

You might find that a tapping, or clicking sound from the rocker box cover area is an elusive demon.  I have been chasing it on my 12 CVO since I got the used bike in 2014 with 4 k miles on it. I have read countless posts from HD (and Indian) owners about the valve train noise.  Some bikes are relatively quiet throughout the rpm range.
Many folks blame the rocker shafts moving in their supports, and Rocker Lockers are the cure for some of these.  Other folks shim the rocker shaft ends, or drill the shafts and install locking screws.  Still others pay exorbitant amounts for lifters.
There is some indication that the steepness of the ramps on the cams are the culprit and this might be true. Or the angle of the pushrods, or the diameter of the top of the pushrod tubes, or the adjustable pushrod length if so equipped. It could even be the noise the valve itself makes as it closes sharply against it's seat.
Much like who killed Kennedy, we will never know for sure.  That clicking will drive you crazy if you let it.

I have found the perfect cure for it in my bike:
https://www.amazon.com/LG-Infinim-HBS-900-Wireless-Headset/dp/B00NW2JBYO

I wish that the noise was the normal load top end racket. This noise was just way too loud. I don't think the headphones would have helped.

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[RonandJanet]

This has got to be frustrating!  Months without being able to ride sucks. Maybe the dealer will work with you to get a new 18 model.

[4fun]

This has got to be frustrating!  Months without being able to ride sucks. Maybe the dealer will work with you to get a new 18 model.

Extremely, especially since we have been having unseasonably  warm days.

None of the new ones called out to me like my gold rush did.

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[Eddie Haskell]

Wouldn’t limiters in the lifter eliminate lifter failure entirely? It seems the stronger CVO springs are being blamed for the failures so...


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[sadunbar]

Wouldn’t limiters in the lifter eliminate lifter failure entirely? It seems the stronger CVO springs are being blamed for the failures so...


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How?

All lifter limiters do is reduce the amount of lifter piston travel from .200 to .100...

 

[Twolanerider]

Wouldn’t limiters in the lifter eliminate lifter failure entirely? It seems the stronger CVO springs are being blamed for the failures so...


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How would limiting the internal travel of the hydraulic lifter at all mitigate failure of the rollers and the other wear commonly experienced in the lifters?

[Twolanerider]

How?

All lifter limiters do is reduce the amount of lifter piston travel from .200 to .100...

Yeah, what he said.... 

[Eddie Haskell]

I didn’t realize the roller was the part that was failing, I assumed the plunger was the issue. Why then do higher quality roller lifters fail as well?


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[Twolanerider]

I didn’t realize the roller was the part that was failing, I assumed the plunger was the issue. Why then do higher quality roller lifters fail as well?


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Because it's a systemic problem rather than just the lifters.  Some have proved better endurance than others for sure.  But it's not a problem whose root is singular.

[HD Street Performance]

Because it's a systemic problem rather than just the lifters.  Some have proved better endurance than others for sure.  But it's not a problem whose root is singular.

Well said and the solutions are well documented.

[4fun]

Hopefully the final update! Just picked it from the dealer today. Sounds way better now. They installed the S&S premium lifters instead of the Harley stock lifters at no additional cost.

At this point, I would like to put a recommendation out there for Tramontin Harley Davidson located in Hope, NJ. Especially Ken and Brad.

They were really good to work with and no hesitation to do the lifter replacement. No "They all do that" comments at all.

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[johnsachs]

If you want bullet proof, try the Isky "EZ-Riders" lifters, non-roller bearings. 
John

[sadunbar]

If you want bullet proof, try the Isky "EZ-Riders" lifters, non-roller bearings. 
John

You have tested these with some mileage, John?

http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/cam-valvetrain/isky-cams-takes-mystery-out-of-bushing-style-roller-lifters/

[HD Street Performance]

Time will tell. The idea is not new but incorporating bushings in a hydraulic roller is definitely new. Morel has purposely avoided hydraulic bushing rollers for some solid reasons. We will see how this plays out and if the bushings live. The stock CVO110 is a good testing sample. It is not uncommon to hear of the stock lifters failing on bikes with under 10k miles.

[J.D.]

Even if these fail slightly sooner than those with needle bearings, they won't likely take out the entire engine.

[sadunbar]

Even if these fail slightly sooner than those with needle bearings, they won't likely take out the entire engine.

A failed bushing will fill the motor with debris too, just a different type debris...

[Twolanerider]

A failed bushing will fill the motor with debris too, just a different type debris...

Shavings and chunks rather than rollers and shaving and chunks.  The only good option is none of the above.

[johnsachs]

You have tested these with some mileage, John?

http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/cam-valvetrain/isky-cams-takes-mystery-out-of-bushing-style-roller-lifters/

As mentioned "time will tell". 
John

[RonandJanet]

Glad you got her back. I know what you mean about not seeing that bike that just calls to you. I haven't seen that one since I got the one I have and it called to me.  I had almost 20K on my lifters and decided to just have them changed to SS and also put in the adjustable push rods. I didn't have any problems but  wanted to prevent issues. So far so good.  My dealer has always been great as well!   

[J.D.]

Shavings and chunks rather than rollers and shaving and chunks.  The only good option is none of the above.

I guess it depends if the bushing just wears out to a larger ID and gets noisy, or grenades.  Based on the limited internet research I did on them, I was under the impression that the bushing material doesn't fail catastrophically like the needle bearings.

Best to not find out and replace whatever you run long before that happens. 

[HD Street Performance]

Not as simple as that. There is collateral damage that occurs and usually takes out the bores and sends metal everywhere. The guys that ride them when they are making noise and hope they will clear up that is what kills the motor regardless of whose lifters are in there.

[Twolanerider]

I guess it depends if the bushing just wears out to a larger ID and gets noisy, or grenades.  Based on the limited internet research I did on them, I was under the impression that the bushing material doesn't fail catastrophically like the needle bearings.

Best to not find out and replace whatever you run long before that happens. 

Depending on materials and processes and temps and pressures (and a host of other factors) embrittlement is a consideration with bushings.  The materials processes guys have a specific and technical term for the results: Chunks.  Chunks is a bad thing...

Chunks would assume, of course, that nothing else failed first.