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[HighOnHD]

Hey Tall, with your thread going South so quickly, I'm betting you may be rethinking asking that question now, huh......

Good golly fellers, all ol' Tall wanted was to know if swapping out a twin cam to M8 has been done yet.  Y'all turned it into the MoCo ain't got no engineers or bean counters run the place or which is a better motor......

.....I love this site.....

I agree and apologies. It is actually a great question by the OP. What gets me is when I go to read a post I end up reading GRC post pounding away on HD. At this point I feel obligated to at least be what often seems like a sole alternative opinion to consider. 

[J.D.]

I'm guilty as well I guess.  It's easy for frustration to come through when these expensive bikes have chronic problems.  I'll agree the move to the new M8 platform was needed and a wise move.

I haven't heard of trying to put a M8 in a TC chassis, but then again with everything associated not sure it would make as much sense from several perspectives vs. purchasing a new/clean used M8 bike.

[HighOnHD]

I'm guilty as well I guess.  It's easy for frustration to come through when these expensive bikes have chronic problems.  I'll agree the move to the new M8 platform was needed and a wise move.

I haven't heard of trying to put a M8 in a TC chassis, but then again with everything associated not sure it would make as much sense from several perspectives vs. purchasing a new/clean used M8 bike.

Good point. I think it will depend on the year of the bike to be upgraded. In my case (2015 FLHXSE Rushmore with a  CANBUS) I am just thinking/planning ahead. As it stands I still have a little over 4 years left on warranty. I expect to get at least another engine rebuild over that time period (for $50). Likely within the next 2 or 3 years. At that time it would be nice to have an option to take the warranty money and use it towards replacing the 110 with a factory M8. I don't see how it should be that difficult actually. I'm an Electronic Engineer and Software Engineer by profession. Without knowing all the particulars it seems someone like Steve Cole at TTS who already has their foot in the door in this regard could even put in the effort for the opportunity to Flash the ECM, including and likely requiring exchanging a couple of sensor inputs or some output minor wiring changes and presto a new product to charge for. I would not be surprised though if HD figures out that this is also an opportunity for them to make money and help customers. If I was not knocking on the door of retirement I might have even considered this opportunity!

[Rooster]

Most of the complaining about HD's quality/reliability is frustration from those that have had more problems to deal with verses just being able to ride and not feel like you are buying a platform that has to be upgraded for reliability as each passing year has new issues to deal with including the new M8. Now on their second year have already started it's list of flaws. Back to topic, if you could put the M8 in an older model the suggested S&S 124 lc is prolly a more reliable upgrade based on input from those who have done so. Good luck on your choice.

[Unbalanced]

Most of the complaining about HD's quality/reliability is frustration from those that have had more problems to deal with verses just being able to ride and not feel like you are buying a platform that has to be upgraded for reliability as each passing year has new issues to deal with including the new M8. Now on their second year have already started it's list of flaws. Back to topic, if you could put the M8 in an older model the suggested S&S 124 lc is prolly a more reliable upgrade based on input from those who have done so. Good luck on your choice.

The S&S crate motors aren't a bowl of cherries either, they have their share of issues too.   

Timken inserts that move, line bores that aren't straight, alignment of cam plate bushings off 4 to 5 thousandths,  oiling issues with regards to the pistons, boring tolerances for the cylinders.   

Not defending the crap we're getting from HD just stating Other options aren't 100 percent either.   

Timkens that move -



Camplate bushing alignment

[HighOnHD]

The S&S crate motors aren't a bowl of cherries either, they have their share of issues too.   

Timken inserts that move, line bores that aren't straight, alignment of cam plate bushings off 4 to 5 thousandths,  oiling issues with regards to the pistons, boring tolerances for the cylinders.   

Not defending the crap we're getting from HD just stating Other options aren't 100 percent either.   

Timkens that move -



Camplate bushing alignment

Thanks Unbalanced. That's the kind of info I was suspecting and the kind of info I would rely on!

Obviously you don't have an agenda. I have to rely on significant data in my profession to make decisions, and not just rely on what happens to show up on a forum posted by angry members or some members with an agenda.

I have been bothered by all of the posts stating how much better other engines and parts are and how they are put forward as facts. One of the reason I have been bothered is because of the numbers. HD is putting out huge numbers of "test data" in the way of engines etc. These other engines and parts (I suspect) being put forward as prime examples of superiority in reliability (IMHO) are in comparison to HD just fly-chit! How can anyone really justify making across the board statements about how terrible HD is in comparison to say S&S without using data of significant numbers from BOTH sides!

For example, Rooster ( not to pick on him, because I am sure he is a good guy and has just had to deal with PITA issues ) it seems to me likely relied on a few data points of early reports of promising reliability for JIMS motors before he decided to buy one to replace the HD motor he was having issues with. It appears he even tried to be proactive and replaced the brand new lifters in the engine before installing it! From what I read that engine blew-UP!

I'm not trying to stir anything up here. In my profession I have to insist on comparing apples to apples in my daily life. I have not seen anything YET data wise that would pass in the world I live in to say a factory S&S engine is more reliable than a factory HD engine. Of course I am not saying that the HD engine can not be improved either!

NASCAR teams spend a lot of money improving engines ( they want them to finish a race ) yet they blow up also. Nothing is perfect!

[Rooster]

Wow Harry, thanks for the info. Up till now I have heard nothing but good from others that have done the 124 S&S change.

[Rooster]

To answer Mr. High. Back in 07 with all the early 110 issues that were happening along with the Pinion runout being all over the board as well as several of our members having had motors replaced some 3 times. I did try to be proactive to avoid all the issues, I spent 5 grand on the 110 to do so to no avail. Yes I pulled the 110 and replaced with the Jim's motor not because of research but because there weren't all the options that we have now.  And yes it blew up and I tore it down to the cases to see all the damage. The issue was the cheap azz cam bearings same as HD has been using didn't hold up. They rebuilt it and did an awesome job and been trouble free for the last 20k or so. I remember my old Evo's having to replace the cam bearings right off the bat before they had a chance to go bad. The MOCO knew that and still continued to use the cheap cam bearings on new bikes. I could go on but there are plenty of old threads on this site as well as others on the subject. Sorry for  Im done. I hope you find what you are looking for Mr. High

[SDCVO]

Wow Harry, thanks for the info. Up till now I have heard nothing but good from others that have done the 124 S&S change.

I absolutely love my 124

[FlaHeatWave]

I agree and apologies. It is actually a great question by the OP. What gets me is when I go to read a post I end up reading GRC post pounding away on HD. At this point I feel obligated to at least be what often seems like a sole alternative opinion to consider. 

"Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again. "

You call it "sole alternative opinion to consider",,, but since you are having a total engine rebuild at only 35k, I'm going to call it denial... LMFAO

If it was covered under the manufacturer's warranty, I wouldn't say a thing,,, but since we have to purchase an additional ESP, to cover a "substandard" product,,, I'm with GRC on this,,, The MoCo needs a little "pounding" from time to time,,, Folks from the MoCo read this Forum every now & then...

As far as S&S not being perfect,,, IMHO they're ahead of 2nd place,,, 'most times that's the best that we can do... There's still enough money in the V-Twin Industry that new products are being developed

Unbalanced; Were any of the issues within warranty period?? Did S&S stand behind any of  their products?? 

Yes, much of the M8 is (current&future) EPA driven... and cost savings / simplicity, doing away with a whole sub-system... rolling in the 21st century with the legacy architecture that Harley owners want...

As far as the engine swap, IDK if the wiring harness/ ECM from the M8 would be the way to go??
Techno Research has the capability to write/re-rite the entire ECM...

I'm curious to see long term reports on the M8's Valve train, seeing as there is no (individual) adjustment??

JMHO... 

[HighOnHD]

"Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again. "

You call it "sole alternative opinion to consider",,, but since you are having a total engine rebuild at only 35k, I'm going to call it denial... LMFAO

If it was covered under the manufacturer's warranty, I wouldn't say a thing,,, but since we have to purchase an additional ESP, to cover a "substandard" product,,, I'm with GRC on this,,, The MoCo needs a little "pounding" from time to time,,, Folks from the MoCo read this Forum every now & then...

As far as S&S not being perfect,,, IMHO they're ahead of 2nd place,,, 'most times that's the best that we can do... There's still enough money in the V-Twin Industry that new products are being developed

Unbalanced; Were any of the issues within warranty period?? Did S&S stand behind any of  their products?? 

Yes, much of the M8 is (current&future) EPA driven... and cost savings / simplicity, doing away with a whole sub-system... rolling in the 21st century with the legacy architecture that Harley owners want...

As far as the engine swap, IDK if the wiring harness/ ECM from the M8 would be the way to go??
Techno Research has the capability to write/re-rite the entire ECM...

I'm curious to see long term reports on the M8's Valve train, seeing as there is no (individual) adjustment??

JMHO...

Fair enough.

Denial? Of what? No one makes me DO anything or BUY anything (except my wife on occasion)!! This isn’t my first Harley and it is somewhere around my 15th or so bike. I bought this bike (as most things in life) because I wanted to buy it. Knowing exactly what to expect with this bike I also wanted to buy the ESP.

Everyone has an opinion. I love my bike, and do not in any way regret the purchase I made, and have yet to see an alternative (for me) that would be a better purchase. If you think there is a better one out there how about proposing it? Which do you suggest?

I’m not saying this is you, but the difference is unlike some I don’t continually blame someone else for the decisions I make! I own them. I don't have an agenda. I just take things at their face value and deal with it. When I get off of the ESP warranty teat and have a choice to either make an attempt to make this engine more reliable (hopefully not too difficult) , or choose to try another engine out to see if it manages to be more reliable, or just decide to buy another bike... I will deal with it then. In the mean time it would be nice to be able to filter out some of the noise that gets posted so that it would be easier to know what ACTUALLY needs to be done!

So far though I am not convinced that HD is as despicable as some try to make them out to be. JMHO

[J.D.]

From my perspective I have no real beef with Harley or any company having a poor or unreliable product design.  Where the issue lies is how they handle their deficiencies.  There's certainly a pattern of behavior.

[HighOnHD]

From my perspective I have no real beef with Harley or any company having a poor or unreliable product design.  Where the issue lies is how they handle their deficiencies.  There's certainly a pattern of behavior.

I generally root for the underdog, but I would not consider HD the underdog. Maybe it has to with my other trait where if I see someone picking on someone I stick up for them!

In any case I wish my bike was finished so that I can be out riding it rather than paying attention to this fly-chit!!

[Unbalanced]

"Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again. "

You call it "sole alternative opinion to consider",,, but since you are having a total engine rebuild at only 35k, I'm going to call it denial... LMFAO

If it was covered under the manufacturer's warranty, I wouldn't say a thing,,, but since we have to purchase an additional ESP, to cover a "substandard" product,,, I'm with GRC on this,,, The MoCo needs a little "pounding" from time to time,,, Folks from the MoCo read this Forum every now & then...

As far as S&S not being perfect,,, IMHO they're ahead of 2nd place,,, 'most times that's the best that we can do... There's still enough money in the V-Twin Industry that new products are being developed

Unbalanced; Were any of the issues within warranty period?? Did S&S stand behind any of  their products?? 

Yes, much of the M8 is (current&future) EPA driven... and cost savings / simplicity, doing away with a whole sub-system... rolling in the 21st century with the legacy architecture that Harley owners want...

As far as the engine swap, IDK if the wiring harness/ ECM from the M8 would be the way to go??
Techno Research has the capability to write/re-rite the entire ECM...

I'm curious to see long term reports on the M8's Valve train, seeing as there is no (individual) adjustment??

JMHO...

Ed as you are aware I had the banging noise from the start of installation, and each time it got rebutted.  It wasn't till I could prove the manufacturing issues that only partial help was given.   Crank and Cases and gaskets.   No Labor, No Cylinders, No Pistons.   It is what it is.   So the slipperly slope of getting taken to the cleaners is over, I now know EVERYTHING to the tiniest details of this motor and what it took to resolve issues that should have never of left S&S assembly line.

If someone had done even the tiniest bit of checking at S&S this motor would have NEVER of rolled out of their shop.   Was it the Timken that was too tight maybe, was it mis-alignment of the Timken through the cases to the bushing in the camplate more likely or a combination of both cant say.   I can say that I prefer the jims Timken although not line bored, but pinned to the gnarled press fit that also had alignment issues.   Had to wait many weeks for cases, thinking that they had an alignment issue.   Had to resolve the issue on our own by finally getting a new cam plate bushing from S&S and having it mocked up and bored correctly to .001 and outter fitment of less than .0013 vs the .0025 and .0045 and .0055 on the xy axis out of alignment.

Still battling internally about whether to post this build and all the tribulations.    Spent the evening cutting rings and setting ring gaps on the total seal rings (not gapless), installing pistons/rings/cylinders and installing the short block into the bike     there is still a chance it will be together for Biketoberfest (well doing my damnedest to make it happen.   Also picked up the heads and new head gaskets from Sachs this morning.   Ended up having to buy new overnighted head gaskets from Cometic, as the pistons were out of the hole with the new cases .004 and .008 /gawd.  Can't say if it was the cases or the cylinders or a combination of both that caused the + deck height.   Just couldn't live with a .022 and .026 squish to much chance for expansion and hitting the piston on the head.   Anyhow heads go on tomorrow and were off to the races on primary etc.

Sorry if I jacked this a little here, but you asked and there was more to it than just yes or no. 

[FLSTFI Dave]

"Well ISKI you probably won’t come to my rescue this time, but here it goes again. My bike is in the shop getting rebuilt @35k miles for the “hard to complain about” $50 deductible. So rather than me being out riding my bike I have the pleasure of enjoying (and responding) to GRC’s posts… again. "

You call it "sole alternative opinion to consider",,, but since you are having a total engine rebuild at only 35k, I'm going to call it denial... LMFAO

If it was covered under the manufacturer's warranty, I wouldn't say a thing,,, but since we have to purchase an additional ESP, to cover a "substandard" product,,, I'm with GRC on this,,, The MoCo needs a little "pounding" from time to time,,, Folks from the MoCo read this Forum every now & then...

As far as S&S not being perfect,,, IMHO they're ahead of 2nd place,,, 'most times that's the best that we can do... There's still enough money in the V-Twin Industry that new products are being developed

Unbalanced; Were any of the issues within warranty period?? Did S&S stand behind any of  their products?? 

Yes, much of the M8 is (current&future) EPA driven... and cost savings / simplicity, doing away with a whole sub-system... rolling in the 21st century with the legacy architecture that Harley owners want...

As far as the engine swap, IDK if the wiring harness/ ECM from the M8 would be the way to go??
Techno Research has the capability to write/re-rite the entire ECM...

I'm curious to see long term reports on the M8's Valve train, seeing as there is no (individual) adjustment??

JMHO...

HighOnHD,

It cost you more than $50.00 to have the motor rebuilt you had to pay for an extended warranty.  So, you motor is  being rebuilt during peak riding season.  How many weeks is your bike down?

Failed lifters going on for 9 years is not executable.  HD knows of the issues, and counts on people not riding enough miles a year to have to cover it under factory warranty.  For HD its cheeper to not fix the issue, and fix a few bikes under factory warranty like they had to do for two of mine.  On my 15, lifters failed at 44K and motor was replaced under factory warranty.

Many say oh that was nice they fixed it under warranty, you should not be up set.  Well, it happened the first day of a planned vacation with my Nephew and a few other friends.  We had been planning a year.  I did not get to go.  That pissed me off more the the failed lifter, but that was 100% HD fault.

FlaHeatWave,

Fully agree with you on having to purchase an additional ESP.  I never have for anything.  That is also why I trade my Harley at two years.  I know its going to have issues, expensive ones.  If I were to keep it longer I would have to buy the warranty.  All my cars and trucks have never had an engine failure. 

The M8 is EPA driven.  Noise is part of it and so is emissions for here  and Europe.  The Valve train of the HD twin cam is noisy and EPA is demanding a quieter bike.  M8 has little to no valve train noise.  M8 also has cleaner emissions. 

I think the M8 is a better motor, but I am afraid it has its issues due to HD's loose tolerances for parts, and using the least expensive part.

That said my 17 CVO Street glide had 20526 trouble free miles in 11 months.  To really know we will need to see them with 60K or more miles on them