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Author Topic: Sumped again!  (Read 42134 times)

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odessyblueIke

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #195 on: June 18, 2018, 11:19:27 AM »

First 500 miles did not go over 3000, next 250 up to 4000, next 250 (never made it) up to 4500 ish

  If you don't mind me asking, hat gear are you running in? I'm in 6th gear at 60 on up, I never TAC over 3000. 
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SDCVO

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #196 on: June 19, 2018, 12:43:49 AM »

  If you don't mind me asking, hat gear are you running in? I'm in 6th gear at 60 on up, I never TAC over 3000.
sounds like your lugging your motor.
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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #197 on: June 19, 2018, 08:40:49 AM »

  If you don't mind me asking, hat gear are you running in? I'm in 6th gear at 60 on up, I never TAC over 3000.

If on the interstate, my cruise is at 3000 RPM.  In the twisties in the mountains I run between 2500 and 4000 RPM.  I'm not in 6th until 70 mph or more.
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odessyblueIke

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #198 on: June 19, 2018, 09:02:53 AM »

sounds like your lugging your motor.
  It doesn't seem to be lugging, even going by the owners manual it say 6 th gear at 55 and above, I generally don't get into 6th until 60, but theres no lag when I twist the throttle, no lack of response or power,  so, if its lugging, I cant tell. 
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ultrarider123

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #199 on: June 19, 2018, 09:32:10 AM »

You may not feel like it's lugging but rule of thumb on the 110 Twin Cams was nothing below 2,000 RPM.  I keep mine in the 2,200 to 3,000 range for the '15.  I never see 6th gear on my ride to and from work.  Normally, Beau doesn't get into 6th until I'm running 60 or better on one of the Eisenhower expressways... ;D

This new M8 in the '17's and '18's (including your anni) may be able to handle "lugging" a bit better than the TC.  The TC did'n'a lyke it below 2,000 in general. 

My old Evo's could lug all day long around 1,500 RPM and not complain (much, anyway).

The old Shovel was lug city.....sure do miss that sound and lope...but not much else... :)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 09:34:43 AM by Haird »
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grc

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #200 on: June 19, 2018, 04:10:43 PM »


Running for any length of time at higher rpm's may in fact play a part in the sumping issue, but that doesn't mean people should blame those who ride at 4000 rpm versus chugging along at 2200 like many Harley riders tend to do.  The problem is fairly basic, there is more oil being pumped into the engine than is being returned to the oil pan, until the dry sump is overloaded with oil.  The oil pumps are constant displacement units, so the faster you spin them the more oil they pump.  Think about it.  At 4000 rpm for instance, in theory the pump can pump twice as much oil as it can at 2000 rpm.  If the return side of the system has a bottleneck that limits the amount of oil that can be sent back to the pan, and that bottleneck translates to only allowing enough flow to balance the supply side at 3000 rpm or less as an example, the guys running higher rpms for longer periods of time would be more likely to experience the problem.  A properly designed and manufactured system should be able to handle maximum rpms for extended periods of time with no backup of oil in the system.  If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't see dry sump engines in so many race cars.  I think I remember suggesting way back at the beginning of this saga that the aces at H-D might want to consult with the folks from Porsche if they couldn't quickly figure out this sumping issue.  Porsche doesn't have sumping problems running at more than double the rpms of Harley's engines.  And Porsche designed the most trouble free engine Harley has ever produced, the Revolution, proving it can be done but obviously not by the folks working at Harley.  Proving once again top quality engineering is much more important than just hanging your hat on styling for the past thirty years. 

JMHO - Jerry   
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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #201 on: June 19, 2018, 04:14:03 PM »

Running for any length of time at higher rpm's may in fact play a part in the sumping issue, but that doesn't mean people should blame those who ride at 4000 rpm versus chugging along at 2200 like many Harley riders tend to do.  The problem is fairly basic, there is more oil being pumped into the engine than is being returned to the oil pan, until the dry sump is overloaded with oil.  The oil pumps are constant displacement units, so the faster you spin them the more oil they pump.  Think about it.  At 4000 rpm for instance, in theory the pump can pump twice as much oil as it can at 2000 rpm.  If the return side of the system has a bottleneck that limits the amount of oil that can be sent back to the pan, and that bottleneck translates to only allowing enough flow to balance the supply side at 3000 rpm or less as an example, the guys running higher rpms for longer periods of time would be more likely to experience the problem.  A properly designed and manufactured system should be able to handle maximum rpms for extended periods of time with no backup of oil in the system.  If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't see dry sump engines in so many race cars.  I think I remember suggesting way back at the beginning of this saga that the aces at H-D might want to consult with the folks from Porsche if they couldn't quickly figure out this sumping issue.  Porsche doesn't have sumping problems running at more than double the rpms of Harley's engines.  And Porsche designed the most trouble free engine Harley has ever produced, the Revolution, proving it can be done but obviously not by the folks working at Harley.  Proving once again top quality engineering is much more important than just hanging your hat on styling for the past thirty years. 

JMHO - Jerry   

Spot on analysis!
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chinashop bull

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #202 on: June 19, 2018, 04:35:35 PM »

Running for any length of time at higher rpm's may in fact play a part in the sumping issue, but that doesn't mean people should blame those who ride at 4000 rpm versus chugging along at 2200 like many Harley riders tend to do.  The problem is fairly basic, there is more oil being pumped into the engine than is being returned to the oil pan, until the dry sump is overloaded with oil.  The oil pumps are constant displacement units, so the faster you spin them the more oil they pump.  Think about it.  At 4000 rpm for instance, in theory the pump can pump twice as much oil as it can at 2000 rpm.  If the return side of the system has a bottleneck that limits the amount of oil that can be sent back to the pan, and that bottleneck translates to only allowing enough flow to balance the supply side at 3000 rpm or less as an example, the guys running higher rpms for longer periods of time would be more likely to experience the problem.  A properly designed and manufactured system should be able to handle maximum rpms for extended periods of time with no backup of oil in the system.  If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't see dry sump engines in so many race cars.  I think I remember suggesting way back at the beginning of this saga that the aces at H-D might want to consult with the folks from Porsche if they couldn't quickly figure out this sumping issue.  Porsche doesn't have sumping problems running at more than double the rpms of Harley's engines.  And Porsche designed the most trouble free engine Harley has ever produced, the Revolution, proving it can be done but obviously not by the folks working at Harley.  Proving once again top quality engineering is much more important than just hanging your hat on styling for the past thirty years. 

JMHO - Jerry

I agree with your analysis of the cause of sumping but strong disagree with your claims Porsche will fix it because Harley obviously can't.  Harley have been running dry sump motors since '36.  They know what they are doing just as much as Porsche do.

My guess is that so far the sumping issue is bigger than a pump redesign and may need both new case design and camplate and Harley is still hoping to find a cheaper cure than replacing cases, pump and camplate.
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fastfreddy

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #203 on: June 19, 2018, 06:26:29 PM »

I agree with your analysis of the cause of sumping but strong disagree with your claims Porsche will fix it because Harley obviously can't.  Harley have been running dry sump motors since '36.  They know what they are doing just as much as Porsche do.

My guess is that so far the sumping issue is bigger than a pump redesign and may need both new case design and camplate and Harley is still hoping to find a cheaper cure than replacing cases, pump and camplate.
just a slight over sight in the R&D at the engine shop  :nixweiss: … no one wants to see HD F up, but this is a disaster
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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #204 on: June 19, 2018, 07:01:54 PM »

H-D engineering is likely not the problem.  I'd bet, like anywhere these days, management puts hefty cost constraints on designs requiring engineering to make compromises.

If it was a simple problem it would have been identified during development and resolved before production.

The easy band aid was the (multiple?) oil pump design change(s).  Likely beefing up the scavenging side.  We now know that is not the solution.  So something else is going on.

There's only a few ways an engine can sump, and this is likely not a "simple" issue, but I'm confident that HD engineering is good enough to identify the root cause and implement a good solution.

The problem here is the treatment of the consumers, who have done nothing wrong.  HD is handling this design issue, again, all wrong.  Don't make engineering the scapegoat.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 07:04:25 PM by 2002FXDWG3 »
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odessyblueIke

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #205 on: June 19, 2018, 07:30:33 PM »

You may not feel like it's lugging but rule of thumb on the 110 Twin Cams was nothing below 2,000 RPM.  I keep mine in the 2,200 to 3,000 range for the '15.  I never see 6th gear on my ride to and from work.  Normally, Beau doesn't get into 6th until I'm running 60 or better on one of the Eisenhower expressways... ;D

This new M8 in the '17's and '18's (including your anni) may be able to handle "lugging" a bit better than the TC.  The TC did'n'a lyke it below 2,000 in general. 

My old Evo's could lug all day long around 1,500 RPM and not complain (much, anyway).

The old Shovel was lug city.....sure do miss that sound and lope...but not much else... :)
I run between 2500 and 3000 at 70-75 im turning about 2900. 
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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #206 on: June 20, 2018, 08:15:05 AM »

I agree with your analysis of the cause of sumping but strong disagree with your claims Porsche will fix it because Harley obviously can't.  Harley have been running dry sump motors since '36.  They know what they are doing just as much as Porsche do.

My guess is that so far the sumping issue is bigger than a pump redesign and may need both new case design and camplate and Harley is still hoping to find a cheaper cure than replacing cases, pump and camplate.

You have much more faith in HD than I do.  HD had Porsche design the V-Rod engine, which has had much less problems than the Twin Cam or the M8.

The 110 came out in 2007.  In 2016, they were still having lifter failures on the 110 even after all the new and improved lifters.  My 2015 110 had lifter failure with 44K on it, a couple days prior to the 2 year warranty being up.  They replaced the engine.

You right, Harley is hoping to find a cheeper solution, which is why I do not have faith in them fixing it.

With the 110, they just wanted the lifters to last two years rather than fix the issue, it was cheeper.
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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #207 on: June 20, 2018, 08:46:39 AM »

I agree with your analysis of the cause of sumping but strong disagree with your claims Porsche will fix it because Harley obviously can't.  Harley have been running dry sump motors since '36.  They know what they are doing just as much as Porsche do.


You do realize that comment makes no sense, right?  If Harley knows what it's doing as well as Porsche, why are we even having this discussion and why are they still having failures two years after releasing the M8 engines?  If Harley had such a talented staff, why did they have to subcontract the design of the Revolution engine to Porsche?  If Harley has such great experts on oiling systems, why did they have to delay the Twin Cam introduction due to oiling issues back in 1998/99?  Yes they've had dry sump engines going back to the 1930's.  But yes, they've also had plenty of serious issues over all those years as well.  And that's just the oiling system, let's not open up the rest of the can of worms concerning all the wonderful design and engineering issues they've produced over many decades.  What's worse than all the mistakes is their response to all those mistakes, which usually consists of blowing them off and making the customers eat the cost of fixing those mistakes. 

Jerry
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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #208 on: June 20, 2018, 08:55:09 AM »

Good point.  Hard to know for sure what is driving all of these design issues.

I think back to the TC crank changes.  Seemed everything was good through 2002 with the forged cranks and good Timken bearing, then they started making changes (most likely driven by cost reductions).  I'd have to think these changes were not being driven by the engineers.
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bigdave110

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Re: Sumped again!
« Reply #209 on: June 20, 2018, 09:35:24 AM »

Well said Jerry.
Just sold my 2017. Did not trade in as usual.
I am looking at BMW. Test rode the K1600B!!   WOW  All I can say is WOW!!!
Fully understanding each brand has problems. Just tired of paying so much for a bike that requires so much more work!!!

For the record, my 2017 CVO Street glide sumped more times than I can remember. Every time I rode hard for a period of time it would sump.
Dealer said there is only a recall on 117 kits. I told them jugs have nothing to do with a sumping problem.
WTF Really!!!!
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 09:37:51 AM by bigdave110 »
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