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[Ironhorse]

Well last Sunday I finished about 3,500 miles with my new Zippers ECU.

I am running MAP 307, and the bike did fine. My worst tank was 30mpgs, stop and go traffic in Malibu CA, my best tank was 46mpgs, at altitude running about 45-55mph. When I rode 75-85 I got 35mpg, 65-76 I got 38mpgs, 55-65 I got 42mpgs, and 45-55 about 44mpgs. The bike ran the same at sea level as it did over 7,000 feet. It survived floods, hail, and lightning storms without a glitch.

I ran a couple of tanks of 87 octane with no problems or pinging, and that included temps in the high 90s, going up a hill, and pulling away in 5th gear from 2,300rpm. JDK says I probably have a few more horses that could be tuned in, but I won't look for them, the bike has enough for me right now.

I have but two complaints.

One is that when warmed up, and I come to a stop, the engine speed drops below the set idle just a second, then comes right up. The engine does not stall, it just drops and comes up. My IAC Stop Target is set to 7.

I still have popping on decel. The Decel Fuel Cut is activated, the range is set from a high of 2500 to a low of 1280, and the Decel Post Fuel Enrichement is set at 10.

Any ideas where to adjust?

[rednectum]

you may try adding a wee bit of timing in the 500, 750,1000 rpm range. i know those arent the exact numbers but you get the idea.  late timing and reversion from the pipes may be the problem.

you may think im nuts, but clean your speed sensor in the tranny also.

[Ironhorse]

you may try adding a wee bit of timing in the 500, 750,1000 rpm range. i know those arent the exact numbers but you get the idea.  late timing and reversion from the pipes may be the problem.

you may think im nuts, but clean your speed sensor in the tranny also.

I already cleaned the speedo sensor about a month ago, it was covered with the usual gunk and metal shavings. I may check it again.
As for the timing, I need a little more info please.

At what throttle degree position do I start to raise the line?
At what throttle degree position do I start to lower the line?
And how many degree blocks should I raise and then lower it?
Should I do this to ALL the rpms ranges you suggested, 512, 768, 1024?

Right now, on MAP 307 the timing line for:

512rpms is flat all the way across at "8.000 deg of change @ throttle position 0".

768rpms the line starts at "13deg change @ throttle position 0", continues there to "13deg change @ throttle position 12.699", then jumps up to "15.000 deg change @ 14.076 throttle position" for two blocks, down to "14.000deg change @ 16.891 throttle position", to "12.000deg change @ 19.299 throttle position", to "11.000deg @ 19.707 throttle position, to "10.000deg change @ 21.114 throttle position, to "9.000deg change @ 22.522 throttle change" where it levels out and maintains that across the chart.

1024 rpms the line starts at "13.000deg change @ throttle position 0.000", continues flat until, "14.000deg change @ throttle position 12.669" where it continues up one one block increment at at time peaking at "16.000deg change @ throttle position 15.484", then continues back down in one block increments to "9.000deg change @ throttle position 23.930" where it levels out across the chart.

I don't mind making changes as you suggest, but I really don't want to change too much stuff because except for these two issues, the dropping idle, and the decel popping, the bike runs really well.

Thanks

[rednectum]

wow, i wish everyone provided that much info!!

try this------------at 0 to 5 percent throttle, raise dots 2 notches in the beforementioned (is that a word?                                     ) range. if you get less popping, you know you are on the right track! if it seems to work, raise a cople more notches. if popping goes away, smooth the line!

BTW, forgive my memory, but if this is an 07, be sure and pull some timing out of the rear cylinder to avoid ping.

PM if you need more help.

[Eqcons]

I still have popping on decel. The Decel Fuel Cut is activated, the range is set from a high of 2500 to a low of 1280, and the Decel Post Fuel Enrichement is set at 10.

Any ideas where to adjust?

Maybe problem 1 is the result of the settings for problem 2, horse?

Can I ask how you came up with the settings for the Decel range and Post Fuel Enrichment?  I have the decel popping too, and I'd like to try this...

Jim

[sadunbar]

Maybe problem 1 is the result of the settings for problem 2, horse?

Can I ask how you came up with the settings for the Decel range and Post Fuel Enrichment?  I have the decel popping too, and I'd like to try this...

Jim

I honestly am not trying to be a smart a$$, or start anything, but I also had the problem of significant popping under decel with my TMax and Autotune.  I tried to utilize Zippers customer service to solve this problem for quite some time.  Quite an experience....  I could lessen the problem by sacrificing mileage - which was an unacceptable solution, but I could not get rid of it.  But then, I came upon an solution which eliminated the problem completely.  I now have better mileage then I ever had with any program or modifications to the TMax, and I have absolutely no popping under decel.  And, I have the best performance numbers since owning the bike.  The solution was a Power Commander tuned by Speeds Performance...

Scott

p.s. - I have a slightly used TMax ECM w/autotune module  - 02 sensors - cd - cables for sale.  First $500 including shipping buys it.

[Hoist!]

I honestly am not trying to be a smart a$$, or start anything, but I also had the problem of significant popping under decel with my TMax and Autotune.  I tried to utilize Zippers customer service to solve this problem for quite some time.  Quite an experience....  I could lessen the problem by sacrificing mileage - which was an unacceptable solution, but I could not get rid of it.  But then, I came upon an solution which eliminated the problem completely.  I now have better mileage then I ever had with any program or modifications to the TMax, and I have absolutely no popping under decel.  And, I have the best performance numbers since owning the bike.  The solution was a Power Commander tuned by Speeds Performance...

Scott

p.s. - I have a slightly used TMax ECM w/autotune module  - 02 sensors - cd - cables for sale.  First $500 including shipping buys it.

Interesting Scott. You seem to be among many who have chosen this solution to fixing TM problems. Zippers is their own worst enemy in this issue. The problem can also be solved by ripping out that AT POJ and having the bike w/TMax ECM tuned on a Dyno. But the people who are good tuning them are few and far between. Even if you choose to keep the AT, it'll never work right without a correct base map anyway. Don't fall for the "it'll be all setup for your bike" from Zippers. From what I've seen, their base maps aren't close enough, even for Zipper built engines. There is no substitute for a proper tune, regardless of what tuning device or ECM you use. Don't believe anything else. If you do, I also I have a nice bridge here in NYC for sale!

Hoist!

[Eqcons]

Interesting Scott. You seem to be among many who have chosen this solution to fixing TM problems. Zippers is their own worst enemy in this issue. The problem can also be solved by ripping out that AT POJ and having the bike w/TMax ECM tuned on a Dyno. But the people who are good tuning them are few and far between. Even if you choose to keep the AT, it'll never work right without a correct base map anyway. Don't fall for the "it'll be all setup for your bike" from Zippers. From what I've seen, their base maps aren't close enough, even for Zipper built engines. There is no substitute for a proper tune, regardless of what tuning device or ECM you use. Don't believe anything else. If you do, I also I have a nice bridge here in NYC for sale!

Hoist!

Well, despite the decel popping, and the problems I had with the TMAT on engine 1, I'm happy with it at this point in time, and I have no difficulty in getting a response (by email) from them when I need it.  YMMV....

Jim

[sadunbar]

Interesting Scott. You seem to be among many who have chosen this solution to fixing TM problems. Zippers is their own worst enemy in this issue. The problem can also be solved by ripping out that AT POJ and having the bike w/TMax ECM tuned on a Dyno. But the people who are good tuning them are few and far between. Even if you choose to keep the AT, it'll never work right without a correct base map anyway. Don't fall for the "it'll be all setup for your bike" from Zippers. From what I've seen, their base maps aren't close enough, even for Zipper built engines. There is no substitute for a proper tune, regardless of what tuning device or ECM you use. Don't believe anything else. If you do, I also I have a nice bridge here in NYC for sale!

Hoist!

It was really disappointing to get to the point of pulling the Tmax system off my bike.  I believe the technology is the way of the future, and I put a lot of effort into making it work.  I am most disappointed in the customer service provided by Zippers.  It is a lot of money to sit on a shelf.  I bet if I could drop my bike off at Zippers and they put serious effort into solving the problems I was having, that they could solve the problems and it would perform just as I hoped it would.  I just couldn't get there with it, and they couldn't (or didn't) help me get there with it.  I had almost convinced myself that the popping under decel was due to an air leak or other issue not related to the TMax....but after installing the Power Commander and having it dyno tuned by an expert - the problem was resolved - and I had better mileage then ever - and I had better performance then ever...  To bad - cause I love new technology and going into it, I thought this was a cool product.

Scott

[Eqcons]

It was really disappointing to get to the point of pulling the Tmax system off my bike.  I believe the technology is the way of the future, and I put a lot of effort into making it work.  I am most disappointed in the customer service provided by Zippers.  It is a lot of money to sit on a shelf.  I bet if I could drop my bike off at Zippers and they put serious effort into solving the problems I was having, that they could solve the problems and it would perform just as I hoped it would.  I just couldn't get there with it, and they couldn't (or didn't) help me get there with it.  I had almost convinced myself that the popping under decel was due to an air leak or other issue not related to the TMax....but after installing the Power Commander and having it dyno tuned by an expert - the problem was resolved - and I had better mileage then ever - and I had better performance then ever...  To bad - cause I love new technology and going into it, I thought this was a cool product.

Scott

For me, the big problem with the TMAT is that it neither uses the ION sensor, nor, therefore, can it dynamically adjust timing.  If they make it do that, it would be a huge step forward.

Jim

[Twolanerider]

For me, the big problem with the TMAT is that it neither uses the ION sensor, nor, therefore, can it dynamically adjust timing.  If they make it do that, it would be a huge step forward.

Jim

Well, that and the company support sucks like a black hole at high tide.

[VAZHOG]

Well, that and the company support sucks like a black hole at high tide.

How dare you speak about my FIRST wife like that!

[Twolanerider]

How dare you speak about my FIRST wife like that!

Spew score today:

Site 1
Twolane 0

[Ironhorse]

Well guys I tried all the adjusting suggestions, and I still get a regular pop on decell. So until there is an "official fix" from Zippers, I am just going to have to live with it. Other than this, the bike starts right up, idles great, runs great, and gets okay mpgs. I know I can improve the mpgs by adjusting the "afr vs tps" settings, but for now I don't want to mess with anything. Compared to all my other Zippers issues, this one is bearable.

[Eqcons]

Well guys I tried all the adjusting suggestions, and I still get a regular pop on decell. So until there is an "official fix" from Zippers, I am just going to have to live with it. Other than this, the bike starts right up, idles great, runs great, and gets okay mpgs. I know I can improve the mpgs by adjusting the "afr vs tps" settings, but for now I don't want to mess with anything. Compared to all my other Zippers issues, this one is bearable.

So where did you get the settings for the decel mods, Horse?   Did it improve things, or make no difference?

Jim

[bisounours]

So where did you get the settings for the decel mods, Horse?   Did it improve things, or make no difference?

Jim

Basic settings ....

[bisounours]

So where did you get the settings for the decel mods, Horse?   Did it improve things, or make no difference?

Jim

Decel fuel cut....

[Eqcons]

Decel fuel cut....

Thanks Jacques   , but I knew how and where to change the settings, what I don't know is where old Cheval-de-fer got the figures he used, i.e. "The Decel Fuel Cut is activated, the range is set from a high of 2500 to a low of 1280, and the Decel Post Fuel Enrichement is set at 10."  - how did he get those figures??

Jim

[bisounours]

Thanks Jacques   , but I knew how and where to change the settings, what I don't know is where old Cheval-de-fer got the figures he used, i.e. "The Decel Fuel Cut is activated, the range is set from a high of 2500 to a low of 1280, and the Decel Post Fuel Enrichement is set at 10."  - how did he get those figures??

Jim

Good question 

Jacques

[Eqcons]

I still have popping on decel. The Decel Fuel Cut is activated, the range is set from a high of 2500 to a low of 1280, and the Decel Post Fuel Enrichement is set at 10.

Ok, I tried those settings on mine too, and confirm that I still have a lot of decel popping, though I would guess that it's improved - maybe reduced 30 or 40%.

But the question remains: IRONHORSE, ARE YOU LISTENING?  WHERE DID YOU GET THOSE SETTINGS??

Jim

[Rhino]

Hey guys,  I said before, the release of Zippers firmware is not yet official. Too many bugs in it, causing problems in the testing.  The new software is out, but will NOT work with the latest firmware that was RELEASED to a select few.  If the decel mode is active while linked, you are using the BETA firmware.  Frankly, it is not a good idea, but as noted, many have NO patience.  You are on your own with that one, no support or fix is available as of this date. Now, tommorrow may be a different story, and on the 10th of October, I will be cornering Zippers to get some details. As a matter of fact, they will be at Destination Daytona, at the ZIppers Booth, during Biketoberfest here in FL.

Rhino

Ok, I tried those settings on mine too, and confirm that I still have a lot of decel popping, though I would guess that it's improved - maybe reduced 30 or 40%.

But the question remains: IRONHORSE, ARE YOU LISTENING?  WHERE DID YOU GET THOSE SETTINGS??

Jim

[rednectum]

thanks rhino, i didnt want to bust any bubbles. people jjacking with new firmware when a tuner coulda fixed problem with old firmware!!

[Ironhorse]

Guys,

My new ECM came with the software installed. That's what John Kitz told me, that it was already loaded. I did not bootleg it off another site. Zippers included it in the ECM. Everything I have, Zippers sent me. They also sent me an updated manual om CD ROM too, but I AM NOT going to post it because I don't want to get my ass chewed out again. As for the settings, well I have tried to contact Zippers for help and support, but I guess they are all busy and out of town because I'm not getting any response. Some of you may have experienced this too from Zippers on other issues. And since the factory settings were not working, I decided to try the "adjust and ride" method. I know it's "tuning in the blind" but I was without help or direction from Zippers.

So I noted where the rpm range where the decel popping was occuring, it between 2,500 and damn near idle. I reset the range for 2,500 and as close to idle as possible 1,280. The bike kind of lurched a little when the rpms got below 1,280, so I raised the lower setting back up to about 2,000, down from the original setting of 2048. I kept the upper range at 2,500, up from the original setting of 2,400. With what I considered to be reasonable range settings I decided to work with the other adjustment, Decel Post Fuel Enrichment. It can be adjusted two ways, up or down. So I decided to start incrementing it down a little at a time and riding it to see what happens. It is now down to 10 with no real change. So I will probably start incrementing it up. Like I said, I know it's tuning in the blind, but what else can be done when you can't get someone on the line or via e-mail to help out.

So I guess the answer is YES I AM LISTENING. It's just that I have a product with the new software loaded (at least that's what they told me), and no support from them on how to adjust it. So if anyone here has working knowlege on this system that is equal to Zippers, I'd be thankful for some help. If not, then I will continue to make changes and take notes until I find a combination that works.

[Eqcons]

Guys,

My new ECM came with the software installed. That's what John Kitz told me, that it was already loaded. I did not bootleg it off another site. Zippers included it in the ECM. Everything I have, Zippers sent me. They also sent me an updated manual om CD ROM too, but I AM NOT going to post it because I don't want to get my ass chewed out again. As for the settings, well I have tried to contact Zippers for help and support, but I guess they are all busy and out of town because I'm not getting any response. Some of you may have experienced this too from Zippers on other issues. And since the factory settings were not working, I decided to try the "adjust and ride" method. I know it's "tuning in the blind" but I was without help or direction from Zippers.

So I noted where the rpm range where the decel popping was occuring, it between 2,500 and damn near idle. I reset the range for 2,500 and as close to idle as possible 1,280. The bike kind of lurched a little when the rpms got below 1,280, so I raised the lower setting back up to about 2,000, down from the original setting of 2048. I kept the upper range at 2,500, up from the original setting of 2,400. With what I considered to be reasonable range settings I decided to work with the other adjustment, Decel Post Fuel Enrichment. It can be adjusted two ways, up or down. So I decided to start incrementing it down a little at a time and riding it to see what happens. It is now down to 10 with no real change. So I will probably start incrementing it up. Like I said, I know it's tuning in the blind, but what else can be done when you can't get someone on the line or via e-mail to help out.

So I guess the answer is YES I AM LISTENING. It's just that I have a product with the new software loaded (at least that's what they told me), and no support from them on how to adjust it. So if anyone here has working knowlege on this system that is equal to Zippers, I'd be thankful for some help. If not, then I will continue to make changes and take notes until I find a combination that works.

Thanks for that, IH!     Please let us know what the results of your Post Fuel Enrichment settings are as you go up the way, so I can try it too.

[rednectum]

wow. iron horse, spoke to zippers friday and was told the new ware was to be released soon!. we could only assume yoiu had a copy of the firmware that was leaked after sturgis.

BTW, on your decel pop, dont look at rpm where pop occurs, look at tps. usually adjustments at idle tps and a little below will help. it may be popping at around 2000 rpm, but its when closing throttle, so reference tps.  hoping that  made sense.

[Ironhorse]

on your decel pop, dont look at rpm where pop occurs, look at tps. usually adjustments at idle tps and a little below will help. it may be popping at around 2000 rpm, but its when closing throttle, so reference tps.  hoping that  made sense.

So using the "tuning in the blind method", how would I do this? Tape and mark the grip, and then note where the grip (TPS position) is during pop.
This will tell me what rpm and tps is, correct? Throttle closed, or partially closed (or whatever the degree is) at 2,500 rpm. But how does that translate as to where make changes under the basic settings? And what changes do I make? I know I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer, so help me out here.

[Eqcons]

So using the "tuning in the blind method", how would I do this? Tape and mark the grip, and then note where the grip (TPS position) is during pop.
This will tell me what rpm and tps is, correct? Throttle closed, or partially closed (or whatever the degree is) at 2,500 rpm. But how does that translate as to where make changes under the basic settings? And what changes do I make? I know I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer, so help me out here.

I think that the throttle position is a red herring, Horse.  First, it'll be closed - that's where it is on deceleration, that's where it pops.  Secondly, there's no real way to cut the fuel at low revs on the AFR v TPS screen for decel only, or the bike wouldn't tick over!  That's why they've introduced these new settings that your playing with.  I think you're on the right lines, but you need to play with that Decel Post fuel enrichment setting.  Interestingly, a carb motor gives decel popping when the Idle jet is too small, making the AFR too lean - maybe you need to go the other way with the enrichment setting...

Jim

[rednectum]

I think that the throttle position is a red herring, Horse.  First, it'll be closed - that's where it is on deceleration, that's where it pops.  Secondly, there's no real way to cut the fuel at low revs on the AFR v TPS screen for decel only, or the bike wouldn't tick over!  That's why they've introduced these new settings that your playing with.  I think you're on the right lines, but you need to play with that Decel Post fuel enrichment setting.  Interestingly, a carb motor gives decel popping when the Idle jet is too small, making the AFR too lean - maybe you need to go the other way with the enrichment setting...

Jim

yep, that is why i say reference throttle position, if you try and adjust at say 2500 rpm and 30 % tps, you will miss the target. because tps is at 0 or 11 or whatever the software shows at closed throttle.

you can adjust at less than idle rpm and have great results, first, engine fires off of startup fuel setting, second, if adjustments are made at less than idle, they will not affect running, butr will affect popping.

remember version 1.2? thats how you had to do it then when someone had lots of reversion from bad pipes. same reason they now have to decel cut off or whatever settings. good tune/pipes dont have popping anyway. so we have to work around, and just like adding mix screw adjustments and sometimes upping the pilot on carb bikes,  we target early rpm on efi. however, efi allows us to go below idle rpm for adjustments, this helps alot. and dont forget, timing in this low rpm area will surely help popping also.

[Eqcons]

yep, that is why i say reference throttle position, if you try and adjust at say 2500 rpm and 30 % tps, you will miss the target. because tps is at 0 or 11 or whatever the software shows at closed throttle.

you can adjust at less than idle rpm and have great results, first, engine fires off of startup fuel setting, second, if adjustments are made at less than idle, they will not affect running, butr will affect popping.

remember version 1.2? thats how you had to do it then when someone had lots of reversion from bad pipes. same reason they now have to decel cut off or whatever settings. good tune/pipes dont have popping anyway. so we have to work around, and just like adding mix screw adjustments and sometimes upping the pilot on carb bikes,  we target early rpm on efi. however, efi allows us to go below idle rpm for adjustments, this helps alot. and dont forget, timing in this low rpm area will surely help popping also.

All the things we hoped that TMAT would do automagically for us! 

[Ironhorse]

Well, after using the "tuning in the blind" method with no acceptable results I got frustrated. So I reloaded the exact same MAP into the ECM, and reintialized. I didn't even clear the IAC offsets. I just started the bike and monitored it up to 280 degrees. The IAC vs engine temp stayed where it was. Then I took the bike out for a ride. At first it popped just like before, but slowly started to go away, at least that was my perception. My time was short, so it was a short ride. I'm going to try and ride it more this week and see how it does. I'm hoping this takes care of it.

[Ironhorse]

Update guys,

That seems to have done the trick. I took the bike out some more today, and the popping was all but gone. I actually got the idea from working with computers. Whenever a program acts up, sometimes you have to reinstall it again. So I thought I would try it with the ECM and and reinstall the MAP. It seems to have worked for the popping. Now all I need to do is figure out why the rpms drops below the set idle, and then come back up.

So that's my BIG discovery.

Mark

[Eqcons]

Update guys,

That seems to have done the trick. I took the bike out some more today, and the popping was all but gone. I actually got the idea from working with computers. Whenever a program acts up, sometimes you have to reinstall it again. So I thought I would try it with the ECM and and reinstall the MAP. It seems to have worked for the popping. Now all I need to do is figure out why the rpms drops below the set idle, and then come back up.

So that's my BIG discovery.

Mark

That's reassuring, Mark.  A bit like I found when I went from motor 1 to motor 2 and reinstalled everything.

Jim