Topic: Help verifying the SERT map is actually real (Read 3876 times)

skreminegul07 · « **on:** October 20, 2007, 12:28:33 PM »

After much discussion, the dealer gave me the SERT map for my SERK3. I loaded the race tuner software, opened the map and it looks empty. On top of that the date is April 07 instead of last week and the description is Rinehart, and I have V&H TD with Ovals.

Can someone walk me through a few steps to open the map and verify it is a modified map please?

Thanks

springer- · « **Reply #1 on:** October 20, 2007, 01:33:50 PM »

I'll send you my phone number and I would be happy to help you through it.... Now I'll see if I can figure out the message system here.

springer- · « **Reply #2 on:** October 20, 2007, 01:37:35 PM »

I sent a PM but I am not sure if it went as I don't see a way to check it. Let me know if you recieved it. If not, I will try to send another one.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #3 on:** October 22, 2007, 08:45:52 PM »

Skreminegul,

You are looking at the map in basic mode. Change the mode to advanced mode to see more information. If you have questions just give me a call and I will walk you through it all.

-harry

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 22, 2007, 09:54:36 PM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on October 22, 2007, 08:45:52 PM

Skreminegul,

You are looking at the map in basic mode. Change the mode to advanced mode to see more information. If you have questions just give me a call and I will walk you through it all.

-harry

Thanks Harry.
New member Springer gave me his number and he spent about an hour with me on Sat. It was a very informative call.
He is at Bigboys (?) in Augusta, Me. He uses a Factorypro Dyno. They do head work as well.

From Springer:
Here is our site http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com
check out tech article section and the calculators section. In tech rticles is a writeup called "SERT, What is it?"

Here is a link to the 08 results I mentioned ...
http://harleychatgroup.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=34602

My numbers were ok, 91/110 for basic stock I think. Its not any cooler and the decel is crappy. It had no decel pop before.

I'd like to make changes in that area. Do you have experience with that?

Thanks

Unbalanced · « **Reply #5 on:** October 22, 2007, 09:56:12 PM »

deleanment tables for doing that.

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2007, 10:22:29 PM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on October 22, 2007, 09:56:12 PM

deleanment tables for doing that.

i see that it is based on temperature. Have you done any tweaking in that area? Does it need only slight changes? The manual said sometimes you add fuel sometimes you remove. Is it just a matter of trial and error? its from 2000 -1500 rpm.

springer- · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2007, 11:09:43 PM »

On the Decel Enleanment table try dropping the 64-112C settings about 5 clicks at 1 unit setting.

Did you hook up the SERT to the bike and read the CAL id to see if it matched the final map they gave you?

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2007, 11:23:46 PM »

Quote from: springer- on October 22, 2007, 11:09:43 PM

On the Decel Enleanment table try dropping the 64-112C settings about 5 clicks at 1 unit setting.

Did you hook up the SERT to the bike and read the CAL id to see if it matched the final map they gave you?

I'll do that tomorrow.

From the SERT Manual

Increment increases fuel removed from the engine at a given temperature.
• Decrement decreases fuel removed from the engine at a given temperature.

So you want me to drop the number which actually adds fuel?

springer- · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2007, 02:50:00 AM »

I have to read that everytime I make an adjustment to decel enleanment. Add 5 to start with (increase the fuel REMOVED). Make sure that every time you make a change you save it as a NEW file name and don't overwrite your current map. You have to save it before it will upload.

Don't forget to check the cal id BEFORE loading a new map.

BTW, did comparing the base map to the tuned map show changes in the VE and Timing?

miker · « **Reply #10 on:** October 23, 2007, 11:23:31 AM »

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 23, 2007, 01:10:34 PM »

Quote from: springer- on October 23, 2007, 02:50:00 AM

I have to read that everytime I make an adjustment to decel enleanment. Add 5 to start with (increase the fuel REMOVED). Make sure that every time you make a change you save it as a NEW file name and don't overwrite your current map. You have to save it before it will upload.

Don't forget to check the cal id BEFORE loading a new map.

BTW, did comparing the base map to the tuned map show changes in the VE and Timing?

Yes, I did connect and verify the base map was 159QF001. I tried the change as you suggested, but no help and the idle was considerably lower.
I put the dealer map back.

springer- · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:40:39 PM »

It was Late and I was tired when I responded last time. I reread the thread and opened up the SERT and double checked and my first post was correct. Drop (lower) the number about 5 clicks at 1 units. This ADDS fuel. See if that makes a difference.

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2007, 07:02:52 PM »

Quote from: springer- on October 24, 2007, 06:40:39 PM

It was Late and I was tired when I responded last time. I reread the thread and opened up the SERT and double checked and my first post was correct. Drop (lower) the number about 5 clicks at 1 units. This ADDS fuel. See if that makes a difference.

I got it retuned today. I lost about 2 HP/ 3 TQ but the popping is gone. From what I can see, the only changes made were to the VE Tables, no timing, decel or any other tanbles/ values were changed.
Does this seem right to an experienced SERT engineer?

Thanks

springer- · « **Reply #14 on:** October 24, 2007, 10:54:08 PM »

Are there any timing changes as compared to the 159QF001 that came on the SERT? If the timing was not changed from the canned map it is only half tuned IMO.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #15 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:02:38 PM »

If there were no timing changes you should be having a very candid converstation with the dealership. These bikes come extremely lean and very detuned. I would take the stock map and print out the timing tables on both cylinders then print out the map the dealer made for you and use 2 highlighters one yellow for front one orange for rear and and block out to show where any timing changes were made. If all they did was add fuel I would ask the dealership for the stepped run print out to show they did anything other than put the newer map in place and maybe tweak the fuel a tiny bit. What number is your final run printed out like run 8 run 15?

Looking at this lets say you did stepped runs both cylinders from 2 percent to say 20 percent that 2,5,7,10,15,20 that is 12 runs then you have sweeps from say 30 percent to 100 percent lets just say you did 4 or 5 of those on the bike each cylinder that is another 10 that is 22 runs then you have fine tuning on the bike and some runs to get rid of decel pop if there is any. I would guess you would be anywhere from 22 --> up in runs from your dyno tune if it were a full dyno tune using a race tuner. There is a reason that the SERT takes 4+ hours to tune, most take a lot longer.

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:14:42 PM »

Here's the map. The base map/cal is 159QF001. Very frustrating. It runs OK, but you guys make me think it could have run much better and cooler.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #17 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:44:54 PM »

This dealer took your money and did not give you what you paid for
.
They did not change any closed bias tables, they did not change ANY Timing,. From 750-3000 rpm they changed the volumetrics by 1 unit across all tables other than 0 percent throttle and one or 2 changes in 2 percent throttle. From 3500 - 7000 RPM all they changed was the volumentrics by 2 units across the entire map.

Please see the pictures below you can easily do the comparisons table for table and see for yourself where any changes have been made.

Happy to go over this to help you understand what I am talking about if you need it just let me know.

Sorry I edited this I am taking some meds for my back and this really set me off that dealers treat customers like this.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #18 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:53:14 PM »

Unbalanced · « **Reply #19 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:53:54 PM »

closed bias compare

Unbalanced · « **Reply #20 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:54:27 PM »

front cylinder timing

Unbalanced · « **Reply #21 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:54:56 PM »

rear timing

Unbalanced · « **Reply #22 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:55:37 PM »

ve front cylinder

Unbalanced · « **Reply #23 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:56:10 PM »

ve rear

Unbalanced · « **Reply #24 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:56:50 PM »

front 3500 up on VE's

Unbalanced · « **Reply #25 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:57:26 PM »

ve rear cylinder 3500 rpm up

Unbalanced · « **Reply #26 on:** October 24, 2007, 11:58:24 PM »

please note the stock map is on the top and your map for comparison is on the bottom.

If you have any questions please let me know,

-harry

Unbalanced · « **Reply #27 on:** October 25, 2007, 12:13:26 AM »

Map they gave to you for your bike with the notes / constants

springer- · « **Reply #28 on:** October 25, 2007, 12:41:34 AM »

It looks like a minimal amount of work was done. While I have a different opinion of some of the tuning concepts outlined by unbalanced, for the most part I agree with what he has stated.

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 25, 2007, 07:38:41 AM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on October 25, 2007, 12:13:26 AM

Map they gave to you for your bike with the notes / constants

Thanks for the time guys. I looked at all the tables and was dissapointed to see that only VE tables were changed.
I'm attaching the new dyno results.

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #30 on:** October 25, 2007, 07:39:39 AM »

The previous results. The description had the wrong date and exhaust.

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #31 on:** October 25, 2007, 07:41:33 AM »

Is this "normal" tuning as far as what is being done? I do not mean that it is a scam or anything, but do you think most dealers do it this way? Once again, I think that most people don't know what could be and settle.

miker · « **Reply #32 on:** October 25, 2007, 07:47:35 AM »

Mine seemed alright until I asked for the map a couple of months ago. They said they lost it...I don't know, I was hoping to have something to oad onto the laptop. I have not tried to muck with the sert software to date. I attached my dyno, the bike runs great and cool. I average around 38-42 mpg, 2-up riding hard.

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:01:18 AM »

I would doubt it is lost. My dealer has everyone they have done. If you go back for a tweak, they would have to start the tune from scratch. That would not be smart. I do not think most want the maps in your hands. I was nicely warned that they would not correct the tune if I messed it up, but as long as I have the original, I can always put it back the way it was when they tuned it. They agreed.

It's like X-Rays, you paid for them and they are yours.

miker · « **Reply #34 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:52:33 AM »

That is what I was thinking.

Miker

miker · « **Reply #35 on:** October 25, 2007, 08:53:47 AM »

But then again I thought you could retrieve the existing map, now that is just to logical for these ninnies isn't it?

Miker

Unbalanced · « **Reply #36 on:** October 25, 2007, 09:22:14 AM »

Looking at this map they gave you then looking final run that states it was the 47th run has to make a person sit back and shake their head. It would seem as though they gave a bogus map to satisfy you. The map output does not look like the product of the dyno sheet you posted. Just my opinion but this looks REALLY FISHY.

to get a flat fuel curve like this and only change every block 2 in this case of the Ve and not change any fuel or timing surely makes it seem bogus/strange. Make them load the map they gave you and then let it warm up and dyno it I don't think your going to like the results another thing is you have a 6 speed why are they doing a dyno run in 4th gear when you should get it done in 5th gear since you have a 6 speed that is also something to ask about.

good luck with the dealer,

skreminegul07 · « **Reply #37 on:** October 25, 2007, 05:47:48 PM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on October 25, 2007, 09:22:14 AM

Looking at this map they gave you then looking final run that states it was the 47th run has to make a person sit back and shake their head. It would seem as though they gave a bogus map to satisfy you. The map output does not look like the product of the dyno sheet you posted. Just my opinion but this looks REALLY FISHY.

to get a flat fuel curve like this and only change every block 2 in this case of the Ve and not change any fuel or timing surely makes it seem bogus/strange. Make them load the map they gave you and then let it warm up and dyno it I don't think your going to like the results another thing is you have a 6 speed why are they doing a dyno run in 4th gear when you should get it done in 5th gear since you have a 6 speed that is also something to ask about.

good luck with the dealer,

The map I posted goes with the dyno run JPEG labelled 10_24. They never gave me the map for the 10_14 initial tune. Well they did give me a map but it was the base calibration map. This is just so frustrating. I 'll probably have it retuned next year by someone else after I verify that the motor is not going to leak which I should know by July 08.
If the motor is not leaking, I'll have cams installed, at the same time they check for crank runout.

Author Topic: Help verifying the SERT map is actually real (Read 3876 times)