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[Steve_G]

The biggest hoax ever perpitrated on the American public is the viability of ethanol.  Today the president is due to sign the new energy bill which calls for 6 times the current what todays ethanol production is- by 2022.  If you think your bike doesn't run well now, just think what it will be like when you're forced to burn 20-30 percent ethanol in your bike!  Let's face it ethanol sucks.  The general cost of food has increased 50% in the last 4 years.  Much of it is due to using food (corn) for fuel.  Corn has gone from about $2 to $4 a bushel.  Our wonderful government sure comes up with some creative solutions.  I wonder if Peewee Herman is available to lead this country?  At least it would be entertaining! 

[LRebel]

You think this is bad....if Hillary gets elected you next scooter will have a solar powered electric motor   

[HogBreath]

I have no idea whether ethanol makes economic sense or not. I'll let the politicians argue about that. All I know is there definately will be more ethanol.

More ethanol means more corn. More corn means more grain storage. More grain storage means more chrome for me.

[JesterDecor]

I have no idea whether ethanol makes economic sense or not. I'll let the politicians argue about that. All I know is there definately will be more ethanol.

More ethanol means more corn. More corn means more grain storage. More grain storage means more chrome for me.

As long as ya stay within the budget!! 

[Fired00d]

I have no idea whether ethanol makes economic sense or not. I'll let the politicians argue about that. All I know is there definately will be more ethanol.

More ethanol means more corn. More corn means more grain storage. More grain storage means more chrome for me.

I'm disappointed I thought you were going to say more Mason Jars full of 'shine.

You really live in Kentucky??

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[HogBreath]

I've seen the local farmers get paid to NOT plant a crop. I'm hoping they come up with a program to NOT Build Grain bins.

The first year I'd like to NOT build 5 medium size grain bins.
The second year, I'd like to NOT build 10 medium size grain bins.
If I continued the growing spurts, I'd guess by the time I'm 58 I could NOT be building enough grain bins I might retire.

[HogBreath]

I'm disappointed I thought you were going to say more Mason Jars full of 'shine.

You really live in Kentucky??

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

LOL..good one

[Steve_G]

I'm surprised that Nancy Palosi hasn't introduced legislation to prevent Boy Scouts from lighting farts at camp-outs!
It may be a small help against global warming, but shouldn't everyone be required to make SOME contribution?

[iski]

Ethanol gets poor mileage as compared to gasoline & it requires lots of energy to convert corn to ethanol.

So its an ideal federal program, creating lots of work whose net effect is negligible, along with the added whopping increase in food costs that are projected to continue.


We could just drill for the oil we already have ALL OVER the USA & refine that instead but noooooooooooo - apparently the pork barrel doesn't tip that way currently.

[grc]

Ethanol does not make economic sense as a vehicle fuel at this time.  It currently takes significantly more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than you get back by burning it in an internal combustion engine, and even with government incentives it cannot come close to competing with gasoline in terms of price.  It has also been estimated that the amount of corn required to produce enough ethanol to fill the tank of your average SUV one time would supply a full years worth of calories for one human being if it was used as food rather than fuel.  As is the case with most things politicians get involved with, the benefits have been highly exaggerated while the disadvantages have been ignored and/or swept under the rug. 

There is no magic silver bullet that will eliminate our dependence on foreign oil, and I resent the fact that our politicians think we are all stupid enough to fall for this.  Sure, we need to start working on energy alternatives now rather than wait until there is no oil to be had.  We don't need the typical BS out of Washington, however, along with the programs that inevitably make a small number of folks filthy rich at the expense of the rest of us.

Jerry

[HogBreath]

I'm in a rural area and I make a living constructing agricultural and commercial grain handling storage tanks etc. The whole ethanol thing is very complex. I don't think anyone could possibly fully understand what is happening in the grain market. I am just barely smart enough to know that I don't understand. When Katrina hit New Orleans the facilities that ship grain overseas were shut down. This was 2 weeks before our local corn harvest started. When those facilities shut down, the river ports along the Mississippi river shut down, or lowered the price of corn to poverty levels. There was no place to ship the corn, so it was dumped on the dirt.

Illinois, Iowa and the big corn producing states are now looking at corn deficits due primarily to ethanol. They'll have to import corn from other states just to cover their needs. That has NEVER happened before. So, with demand, the price of corn goes up. More farmer's plant corn where they used to plant other crops. They go to a different crop rotation to grow more acres of corn. There's less soybeans than there was before so the price of soybeans goes up. The price of corn goes up and it makes ethanol less effective. Everyone wants cheap food, but, everyone wants to assist the farmer. Look at Willie Nelson and FarmAid. I say cheap food will win out.

If I was president, I'd fix it. I'd let supply and demand figure out the price of corn and the US government would have nothing to do with it. If we ran outta fuel, I'd send all of our boys over yonder and whip the hell outta them and take their oil. They'd push the button and millions of people would die, including me and I'd be responsible for WWIII. That won't work.

Seems to be a pretty delicate balance. I don't know the answers, if I did, I'd be rich in a year or two. Like the song says...TIMES...THEY ARE A-CHANGIN...Me, I just wanna be free to ride my machine. Biggest worry I have in life is my head gasket leak. Actually, that doesn't even bother me too much.

[Free]

Ethanol does not make economic sense as a vehicle fuel at this time.  It currently takes significantly more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than you get back by burning it in an internal combustion engine, and even with government incentives it cannot come close to competing with gasoline in terms of price.  It has also been estimated that the amount of corn required to produce enough ethanol to fill the tank of your average SUV one time would supply a full years worth of calories for one human being if it was used as food rather than fuel.  As is the case with most things politicians get involved with, the benefits have been highly exaggerated while the disadvantages have been ignored and/or swept under the rug. 

There is no magic silver bullet that will eliminate our dependence on foreign oil, and I resent the fact that our politicians think we are all stupid enough to fall for this.  Sure, we need to start working on energy alternatives now rather than wait until there is no oil to be had.  We don't need the typical BS out of Washington, however, along with the programs that inevitably make a small number of folks filthy rich at the expense of the rest of us.

Jerry

AMEN

[FNGw/08SERK]

I'm in a rural area and I make a living constructing agricultural and commercial grain handling storage tanks etc. The whole ethanol thing is very complex. I don't think anyone could possibly fully understand what is happening in the grain market. I am just barely smart enough to know that I don't understand. When Katrina hit New Orleans the facilities that ship grain overseas were shut down. This was 2 weeks before our local corn harvest started. When those facilities shut down, the river ports along the Mississippi river shut down, or lowered the price of corn to poverty levels. There was no place to ship the corn, so it was dumped on the dirt.

Illinois, Iowa and the big corn producing states are now looking at corn deficits due primarily to ethanol. They'll have to import corn from other states just to cover their needs. That has NEVER happened before. So, with demand, the price of corn goes up. More farmer's plant corn where they used to plant other crops. They go to a different crop rotation to grow more acres of corn. There's less soybeans than there was before so the price of soybeans goes up. The price of corn goes up and it makes ethanol less effective. Everyone wants cheap food, but, everyone wants to assist the farmer. Look at Willie Nelson and FarmAid. I say cheap food will win out.

If I was president, I'd fix it. I'd let supply and demand figure out the price of corn and the US government would have nothing to do with it. If we ran outta fuel, I'd send all of our boys over yonder and whip the hell outta them and take their oil. They'd push the button and millions of people would die, including me and I'd be responsible for WWIII. That won't work.

Seems to be a pretty delicate balance. I don't know the answers, if I did, I'd be rich in a year or two. Like the song says...TIMES...THEY ARE A-CHANGIN...Me, I just wanna be free to ride my machine. Biggest worry I have in life is my head gasket leak. Actually, that doesn't even bother me too much.

      

[Midnight Rider]

I  thought some people were working on making fuel out of KUDZU....now there's a plant that is definitely a renewable engergy source, as the damn stuff is all but impossible to get rid of once on a person's property.  It is the Japanese payback for whipping their a$$es in WWII.

I don't think corn is the solution to the problem of oil dependency, and I also don't think we have a lot of reserves left untapped in this country...unless you want to open the AWLR (I'm against that, if you can imagine), or start squeezing oil of of shale (Rocky Mountains...I'm against that too).

Ken...I'm with you...food will win out in the long run.  Folks here in Alabama are planting wheat (unusual) because of the wheat shortage in the world right now.

I'm tellin' ya'll, the REAL problems we face in the next 50 years ain't about oil, it's about WATER, and the fact that there are just too damn many people in the world.

[HogBreath]

Most people don't even realize most crops are planted for livestock feed. There's no telling how much of this country's crops are shipped overseas to feed livestock in China or elsewhere. I'd venture to guess California alone could easily produce enough crops to feed the entire US if it didn't go to feed livestock.

I've never thought corn was the solution to the energy crisis. I'm not sure there IS a solution. But, if corn and ethanol decreased our dependance on foreign oil by 1/2 of one percent...It's a step in the right direction. I know one thing for certain...ethanol is coming whether we like it or not.

[Steve_G]

I just want a choice at the pump.  I've heard that some states require ethanol period.  You can't buy gas that doesn't have ethanol.  I may be wrong, but I think Wisconsin may be one.  I know senator John Thune R-SD is trying to increase the percentage from 10 to 20 in our state.  I know for a fact that ethanol decreases milage, and is hygroscopic.  If we're going to increase ethanol useage by 600%, I can forsee a time when you won't be able to buy any gas without it.  I can guarantee it won't make your bikes happy. 

[Hugh Janis]

because is hygroscopic it can NEVER be used 100%.  The strongest it can be when exposed to the atmosphere is around 95% (the other 5% being water).  I've heard estimates that the energy stored (released on ignition) in ethanol is around 30% less than the same volume of gasoline.  That would cause a significant reduction in MPG as well as HP.  I don't think it will be anything but a fuel additive for these reasons and the others stated above.

Isn't Brazil at nearly 50% ethanol or some number?  Making so much ethanol to stretch their oil supplies has allowed them to be nearly self sufficient.  I know that's a model that's got the world's attention.

[grc]

I just want a choice at the pump.  I've heard that some states require ethanol period.  You can't buy gas that doesn't have ethanol.  I may be wrong, but I think Wisconsin may be one.  I know senator John Thune R-SD is trying to increase the percentage from 10 to 20 in our state.  I know for a fact that ethanol decreases milage, and is hygroscopic.  If we're going to increase ethanol useage by 600%, I can forsee a time when you won't be able to buy any gas without it.  I can guarantee it won't make your bikes happy. 

That's another reason why politicians should never be allowed to get involved in chit they know zilch about (of course, that means that many wouldn't be allowed to get involved with anything other than graft or male cow excrement).  Unless you own a flex fuel vehicle which is designed to run on all combinations from straight gasoline to 85% ethanol, Senator Thune's idea won't fly.  Vehicles have been designed to work properly with up to 10% ethanol for many years, but percentages above 10% will create problems for many/most cars and trucks on the road.  And it definitely won't run worth 2 cents in your Harley.

BTW, on the upside, you don't need to add "Dry Gas" in the winter now that we have all this ethanol already in the gasoline. 

Jerry

[Fired00d]

I  thought some people were working on making fuel out of KUDZU....now there's a plant that is definitely a renewable engergy source, as the damn stuff is all but impossible to get rid of once on a person's property.  It is the Japanese payback for whipping their a$$es in WWII.

I don't think corn is the solution to the problem of oil dependency, and I also don't think we have a lot of reserves left untapped in this country...unless you want to open the AWLR (I'm against that, if you can imagine), or start squeezing oil of of shale (Rocky Mountains...I'm against that too).

Ken...I'm with you...food will win out in the long run.  Folks here in Alabama are planting wheat (unusual) because of the wheat shortage in the world right now.

I'm tellin' ya'll, the REAL problems we face in the next 50 years ain't about oil, it's about WATER, and the fact that there are just too damn many people in the world.

We can live w/o gasoline (we'd be in a lot better shape from all the walking), but we can't live w/o water. It's getting scary and the lack of it is becoming a reality in to many places lately.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[iski]

because is hygroscopic it can NEVER be used 100%.  The strongest it can be when exposed to the atmosphere is around 95% (the other 5% being water).  I've heard estimates that the energy stored (released on ignition) in ethanol is around 30% less than the same volume of gasoline.  That would cause a significant reduction in MPG as well as HP.  I don't think it will be anything but a fuel additive for these reasons and the others stated above.

Isn't Brazil at nearly 50% ethanol or some number?  Making so much ethanol to stretch their oil supplies has allowed them to be nearly self sufficient.  I know that's a model that's got the world's attention.

Yeah, Brazil is using much more ethanol than most of the world.  Big exception - they are producing theirs from sugar cane, not corn. More efficient to produce from cane.  So of course we produce ours from corn.  Now, we own a farm that produces corn, so for us, it's a good deal (price way up) but as a national energy policy, it borders on the idiotic. 

We have plenty of oil just begging to be drilled (much of it on national lands including ANWAR & in the Gulf of Mexico) that boneheaded politicians will not allow to be drilled & refined.  Oil companies remain somewhat nonchalant since when it is drilled & refined (it is just a matter of time) it will be worth much, much more than it is now.  Therefore we the consumer get turned repeatedly in a clockwise motion with a flat headed hand tool into a hard object (screwed).

[LRebel]

We have plenty of oil just begging to be drilled (much of it on national lands including ANWAR & in the Gulf of Mexico) that boneheaded politicians will not allow to be drilled & refined.  Oil companies remain somewhat nonchalant since when it is drilled & refined (it is just a matter of time) it will be worth much, much more than it is now. 

Agree!!!!  Oil companies have the technology to drill with very little chance of disturbing the environment in ANWAR -->Here in Oklahoma deer and other wildlife come right up to the drilling rigs and pumps - no effect on the wildlife in Oklahoma.  There are huge amounts of oil off the coast of Florida & California, but the rich & famous don't want to look at a off-shore rig (but, it's fine for the coast of Texas & Louisiana ).  You are right, in that we will eventually drill in these areas.  The oil companies know this also....and they also know that when they do the price may be $300 per barrel.

[charlie]

The worst part of the energy bill is all the earmarks they put in it. Thats why everything coast so dam much.

[iski]

Agree!!!!  Oil companies have the technology to drill with very little chance of disturbing the environment in ANWAR -->Here in Oklahoma deer and other wildlife come right up to the drilling rigs and pumps - no effect on the wildlife in Oklahoma.  There are huge amounts of oil off the coast of Florida & California, but the rich & famous don't want to look at a off-shore rig (but, it's fine for the coast of Texas & Louisiana ).  You are right, in that we will eventually drill in these areas.  The oil companies know this also....and they also know that when they do the price may be $300 per barrel.

Complete agreement.  Know firsthand about the rigs/pumps in OK & TX - negligible effect & the roads make it easier to hunt. 

Some politicians & enviro groups have succeeded in demonizing most all drilling/exploration, & new refining.  As a result, gas is now about $3 a gallon instead of $1 & oil is closer to $100 a barrel instead of $50. Take the pols like Kennedy who vehemently oppose most business (re:oil) & it's the ideal soapbox.  They always decry oil & when alternatives are offered, we get screwed with this ethanol policy.  When oil is scarcer we will indeed drill it wherever it is to be found.  Enviro concerns about ANWAR are unfounded, but work well for the anti-biz crowd.  $300 a barrel is not all that far fetched, when one considers our oil needs vs oil dependencies on others.

[FNGw/08SERK]

Complete agreement.  Know firsthand about the rigs/pumps in OK & TX - negligible effect & the roads make it easier to hunt. 

Some politicians & enviro groups have succeeded in demonizing most all drilling/exploration, & new refining.  As a result, gas is now about $3 a gallon instead of $1 & oil is closer to $100 a barrel instead of $50. Take the pols like Kennedy who vehemently oppose most business (re:oil) & it's the ideal soapbox.  They always decry oil & when alternatives are offered, we get screwed with this ethanol policy.  When oil is scarcer we will indeed drill it wherever it is to be found.  Enviro concerns about ANWAR are unfounded, but work well for the anti-biz crowd.  $300 a barrel is not all that far fetched, when one considers our oil needs vs oil dependencies on others.

Not to mention the increased Chinese demand due to US citizens funneling their cash to the Chinese via Walmart 

[Midnight Rider]

I guess it all depends on one's perspective...my personal belief is there NEED to be places on this planet that are relatively untouched by man.  There are so very few left...human activity of ANY kind has a definite impact, wherever it happens, and it is generally negative (except where forced to go in a repair damage already done) when it comes to wild places on the planet and the impact we have on the environment.  There is a lot of shale oil trapped in the Rocky Mountains and other ranges in the Western US, and it is becoming economically viable to extract it...should we go into Rocky Mountain NP, Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Glacier NP, etc simply because they contain something that would make human life a little more comfortable for some finite period of time?  At what point, and where, do you draw the line on a finite resource and focus on other alternatives?  Just as I don't think we should always be at the top of the food chain (entering Grizzly country, Lion country, etc.), I don't think we should have unlimited access to the planet's resources for our own selfish needs, particularly when the cost is the loss of places untouched by our greedy hands and machinery.

It's not just about the oil in ANWAR...drilling in Texas is a hell of a lot different than drilling there.  Building roads creates access by means other than two feet, or four.  We are not talking about deer in this case, but one of the last remaining places for ALL things wild.

Just as I do now, I will support every effort made to keep man's hand off of places where wilderness still exists and stands any chance of remaining protected.

[Talon]

Well if many of our elected Representatives weren't in the pockets of big oil, we might have a good alternative fuel by now!  
After the last increase was mandated GM spent millions of dollars fighting the new law instead of working on the technology to get them to the new standard. To meet the deadline they bought the technology from Toyota!!!  

[iski]

Not to mention the increased Chinese demand due to US citizens funneling their cash to the Chinese via Walmart 

Large trade imbalances historically react as pendulums - they go dramatically one direction, then tend to center in a "balance" mode.  At this point, it's decidedly in the Asian direction as to goods produced, & their increased petroleum needs reflect that shift.   We could correct this with tariffs or embargoes, but at this point the politicians have not elected to do so, since we have chosen not to elect the ones that would do so - thus far.

As to places like ANWAR & pristine natural beauty - not so sentimental myself.  Grew up in an area a where common saying is/was "smells like money" when passing a feedlot or refinery.  Miles & miles of well pumpers are in itself a thing of beauty - depends upon the eye of the beholder. Freezing to death in the dark vs a few million miles of happy snail darters & rare rock fungus - my balance shifts towards not freezing to death in the dark in a hurry.  It's a time factor vs supply & likely we who are alive now will not see petroleum depleted.  Our great-great grandkids likely will not, if history is any indicator. 

[spydglide]

why do we keep electing these same type of yo-yos?  Even the pro-big'bizness people agree that the ethanol plan just makes no economic sense at all, but once again the majority of taxpayers get screwed to benefit a special interest.  This is a great country, but it mystifies me as to the poor choices we have for our leaders......usually at all levels of govt.  But, when you compare our leadership w/ other countries......it doesn't look quite as dismal.  Politics !!!  arrrrgggh.  spyder

[iski]

why do we keep electing these same type of yo-yos?  Even the pro-big'bizness people agree that the ethanol plan just makes no economic sense at all, but once again the majority of taxpayers get screwed to benefit a special interest.  This is a great country, but it mystifies me as to the poor choices we have for our leaders......usually at all levels of govt.  But, when you compare our leadership w/ other countries......it doesn't look quite as dismal.  Politics !!!  arrrrgggh.  spyder

Amen, brother.  As to politics, almost everyday makes me want to talk like a pirate.

[spydglide]

Amen, brother.  As to politics, almost everyday makes me want to talk like a pirate.

well, you live right down in the buccaneer waters area......have at it Iski.  har!  spyder