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[laylonlor]

anyone running the tw 400-6 cam in there 110, if so how much  diff. is it from tw 5-6

[HD Street Performance]

Here is a TW5-6 you requested. Owner built and tuned stock TB stock headpipes, no cat, and Fullsak recores.

[timtoolman]

there is a big difference between those cams,  i have used a 400-6  i love it, longand hard  torque pull  but i didnt have the correct piston valve clearance and bent a valve in a set of  s.e. heads,, Just make sure geometry is correct including the correct springs for those cams , bob woods ones of course and i used his lifters and use his adjustment instructions , along with 50 wt oil ,and valve spring clearances and roller rockers  there are really quiet i was suprised!!!!,  i will put them  back in this winter with hillside heads  but mine is in a hillside 107 cylinder not a 110,, and let me sayyyyyyy  it pulled really hard i miss it!!!!.  love those guys up there in N.Y. they really help you

[Tabatha]

TW-5-6 21/41
39/15 234
234 .575
.575 .174
.160 Stock
 Maximum Low-End Torque – Bolt-In w/Stock Heads   
__________________________________________________
TW-400-6
 22/42
42/20
 244
244
 .650
.650
 .210
.190
 HI-LIFT
 Maximum Torque, 2000RPM & Up
Bolt-In for SE Ported & 103+ Head
 ........The 5-6 is for beginners ! It works if you do not want to put in a bunch of other accessories as the 400 demands ! Go to woodcarbs.com and see the dyno differences----You'll be shocked !

[HD Street Performance]

OK so we know the specs what will the real world difference be between the two assuming the same and proper corrected for cam compression?
My guess would be not more than 3-5hp and TQ. The 400 would be a bypass in my book and if I was having to buy all that gear to make it work and do the extra work needed to the heads I would use a 9B or 408. Those will require a very good tune and pipe to perform well and in the 110 also require a piston change to get the compression where it needs to be without an excessive head cut.

[Tabatha]

Suggestion --------- Bob Woods is an engineer and very happy to speak with anyone asking those questions--Why not telephone him and get the info. you want from "the horses mouth" ?
He invented the cams you are questioning ! His telephone number is on his web ( the web that I posted for your reference).

[timtoolman]

comon  Don,  with all do respect   it think there would be more difference than that!!!!

[HD Street Performance]

Do you think?
My only frame of reference is a 95" motor and I did try them back to back. In my own bike (pre 6 speed carbed A motor bagger) the 400 made 115hp 112TQ and was on early but the compression was too high for bagger use (10.8/1). That motor was so noisy I was embarrassed to say I was a tech. People would ask what's wrong? Different case altogether and today I could quiet them down some. The 408s in my 07 run reasonably quiet but that took everything to be correct and a lot of expensive gear including custom valves, corrected roller rockers, Wood rocker supports, Smiths pushrods, Thayer 3 stage oil pump, Wood lifters and very careful setup. Start doing the math it adds up quick. Others will sell the cam with headwork (cutting corners) and not do all that is needed and the end result will not work properly, Bobby will tell you the same.

The 110 heads and added stroke make this a very different case. I know of no back to back tests. There are none on Bobbys website either. I do see several with the TW8 or the TW408 either of which I would use and in both cases change the pistons and on the FBW bike a TB upgrade would be needed to reach those numbers and likely injectors too. Now we have the same torque profile with 100 torque coming in in the low 2,000 range hitting max at 2,500 and a solid 120/120 with a flat torque curve.

So anyone want to try the 400 for a test in the 110, TOFTT?
I may be all wrong, I am game to help with the test.

Choose your poison but the TW400 I would skip, not bad by any means just I personally could not justify the cost of the extra gear for the small potential gain.

Do you think just going thought the gears and riding on weekends and trips there will be a difference that you can feel to the tune of all the added parts needed and the +$60 for the Designer Series cam? I know the dyno winner.

[timtoolman]

i knlw what your telling,  u and talked on phone before about your experience with the 400-6.  people told me the same thing about the tw-7,  im telling you my tw-7 is  very very quiet at idle (20/50 oil) and yes it took work to get it that way.  but  you maybe right  the 110 is very different engine,  when i had the 400-6  in it was pretty quiet. and i could have gotten it quieter if i had wouldve used better heads,  and if you look at bobs reccomendations it doesnt say a 95"  engine  but i imagine they are in many 95's   i know you know more than me to but i  am just saying my experience  with them  And ive heard many very loud tw-8s  that were louder then the 400-6,  but then i used to repair hot rodded nuclear reactors in a previous  career that might explain a lot ooo

[Tabatha]

TW-400 cam in 110 engine W/50mm TB / 10.5:1 compression = 139tq&118hp
 Dyno will be available as soon as it is downloaded to me from my H.D. dealer--------
    I tried it too !------------

[HD Street Performance]

That is a very healty result and the most torque I have seen yet from a 110. I assume that is SAE (with correction factors revealed) and as I mentioned the pistons and TB were changed and it is not a FBW bike, they are trending less.

[timtoolman]

WHAAAHHOOOOOOOOOO

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Don,
Many tuners out there are seeing issues, with the ability to extract the power from the FBW bikes.
www.joescyclerepair.com does not seem to be one of them.
100/120 is a common number for him(what we've seen) with slip-on mufflers/air cleaner, on an OE 110".
Have seen VERY GOOD power in the 110"s with the 8 cam @ 10.75 cr.
Scott

[HD Street Performance]

Yep I like the 8 too.
I still fail to see FBW bikes do much over 5,500 when the same motor in the pre-06 bikes would pull them out to 6,200+ as they should. No change in hardware other than the 5 speed box and a cable TB (two piece). Why is this? Or are you saying Joe gets them to pull higher by tuning properly? I know the hardware can go there whether it is yours or mine. I also know the FBW TB , manifold specifically, is very restrictive and HPInc has addressed that finally.

[Unbalanced]

Don,
Many tuners out there are seeing issues, with the ability to extract the power from the FBW bikes.
www.joescyclerepair.com does not seem to be one of them.
100/120 is a common number for him(what we've seen) with slip-on mufflers/air cleaner, on an OE 110".
Have seen VERY GOOD power in the 110"s with the 8 cam @ 10.75 cr.
Scott

Hey Scott, was that 100/120 uncorrected and with no conditions?  What were the numbers in SAE / STD?

[laylonlor]

"fbw" bike whats that

[grc]

"fbw" bike whats that

Fly-By-Wire.   The proper term for a Harley would be ETC (Electronic Throttle Control), but many variations in terminology exist.


Jerry

[laylonlor]

can ya convert the fbw bikes ,back to cable easily,

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Hey Scott, was that 100/120 uncorrected and with no conditions?  What were the numbers in SAE / STD?

He may have that info on his site.
Scott

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Yep I like the 8 too.
I still fail to see FBW bikes do much over 5,500 when the same motor in the pre-06 bikes would pull them out to 6,200+ as they should. No change in hardware other than the 5 speed box and a cable TB (two piece). Why is this? Or are you saying Joe gets them to pull higher by tuning properly? I know the hardware can go there whether it is yours or mine. I also know the FBW TB , manifold specifically, is very restrictive and HPInc has addressed that finally.

Not saying he is able to spool them off higher and make more doing so, as I do not know that.
I'll look next time he faxes a report over to us.
HPI did do a VERY good job of correcting that intake manifold issue.
Scott

[Unbalanced]

Scott,

It is truly sad that the numbers aren't validatable with conditions which would only solidify them as genuine and unreputable.   While it is just a tool, it also sells a lot of work as advertisement and until the numbers are backed up with solid data imo its just inflated numbers that won't be had on another dynojet.

[HUBBARD]

Scott,

It is truly sad that the numbers aren't validatable with conditions which would only solidify them as genuine and unreputable.   While it is just a tool, it also sells a lot of work as advertisement and until the numbers are backed up with solid data imo its just inflated numbers that won't be had on another dynojet.

Here, Here!  I concur.   Later--HUBBARD

[timtoolman]

dont the pre -06 bikes run higher numbers because of the trans/gear differences?  or am i off track

[grc]

dont the pre -06 bikes run higher numbers because of the trans/gear differences?  or am i off track

Depends on several factors.  If all runs were made in top gear then what you mentioned might be true, but most dyno runs on Harleys that I've seen have been run in anything from 4th to 5th gear regardless of older or newer model.  The torque multiplying effects of the lower gear ratios can affect the readings positively, while the higher tire speeds and rolling resistance from using top gear will affect the readings negatively.  I wouldn't bother trying to make comparisons unless the bikes were run on the same dyno under the same conditions by the same operator, and even then there are opportunities for an unscrupulous operator to affect the numbers. 

Look at the Dynojet style of dynomometer as a diagnostic and tuning tool, and not a source of incontrovertible data to prove one bike or one persons mods are better than another.  You will be better served that way, and less likely to be lead down the garden path.


Jerry

[Vosselman (NL - Europe)]

Another 'problem' with dyno's and acceleration runs is due to the rear wheel inertia.
Best would be to do a steptest on a dyno with a calibrated loadarm.

The rear wheel inertia differs big time from bike to bike.
Look at the rear wheel on a Jap bike or the 130mm on older HD's and the new 180mm tires or even bigger on the V rods.
The lighter the wheel, the easier it is to accelerate the wheel, the more power is put onto the drum of the dyno, the higher the power reading.
The opposite for a heavy wheel: more engine power is needed to accelerate the wheel, less power is put onto the drum of the dyno.

To be correct, you need to know the rear wheel inertia for every bike. Or use some kind of a way to measure it on the dyno.
The heavier the drum on the dyno, the lower the effect of the rearwheel.

During a steptest, the rearwheel is not accelerating during a step. It runs at the same rpm. So all power is put into the drum.
The calibrated load cell measures the torque/power.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Scott,

It is truly sad that the numbers aren't validatable with conditions which would only solidify them as genuine and unreputable.   While it is just a tool, it also sells a lot of work as advertisement and until the numbers are backed up with solid data imo its just inflated numbers that won't be had on another dynojet.

You may want to discuss his methodology with him,(his phone number is 518-664-7254) but quite contrary to popular belief, as to other dynos replicating his results, that has been proven, on many occasions.
We are very close to Joe, and I for one, do not know, how much work he does at his place of business, and do not, for the life of me, know how that you are privy to that proprietary information.
Scott

[Unbalanced]

You may want to discuss his methodology with him,(his phone number is 518-664-7254) but quite contrary to popular belief, as to other dynos replicating his results, that has been proven, on many occasions.
We are very close to Joe, and I for one, do not know, how much work he does at his place of business, and do not, for the life of me, know how that you are privy to that proprietary information.
Scott

Scott,

Please clarify for me what you are trying to say, because your comments make no sense?  Do you mean how happy his dyno numbers are and how I am privy to this well that is easy one?  As this has been well discusssed on numberous forums?   

[HUBBARD]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, Guys,

While I don't profess to be as knowledgable in the intracacies of dyno-tuning as Unbalanced, or Scott, I find it lacking as far as being an exact science.  There are more variables than actuals.  Different barometric pressures, temperatures, elevations, etc., all are factors.  Example:  Ol' Maudie will produce one set of Dyno numbers in Charleston, WV, and another set in Statesville, NC, at 3000' less Elevation.  To me, dyno sheets are no more than bragging rights, (to the Owner), if they reflect numbers that support bragging, and a "guide", to the Tuner.  Again, that's my view.  I don't want to invoke a riot, or battle of the minds.  I've seen dyno sheets reflect 135 HP, 150 ft. lbs., 150 HP, 140 ft. lbs., and Ol' Maudie go by them like they were sittin' up on jack-stands.  I've also seen some that produced lower numbers, that were very competitive.  So..........who's right, or who's wrong?  Dyno guys have got to make a living, too.  What matters is, how much AIR can we force into our Motors, and how FAST can we force it out the exhaust?  That's my "Creek Boy", evaluation.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD         

[Unbalanced]

Hubbard all that you said is pretty much on target,  except that without the conditions you can't validate the numbers and anyone that has done even a little research on this topic knows that this is one of the happiest dynos around and its the poor folks that don't know any better that get sucked in because it is also used as a tool to sell services.  Don't take my word for it, do a little digging and you will attain the knowledge you need to make the decision for yourself as it has been debated on many sites.      Hell if it is just for the numbers then post all 3 of them uncorrected, SAE, and STD with the conditions then no one has room to complain provided the conditions are in line with the area / temp etc.   
 

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Scott,

Please clarify for me what you are trying to say, because your comments make no sense?  Do you mean how happy his dyno numbers are and how I am privy to this well that is easy one?  As this has been well discusssed on numberous forums?   

We'll I guess that sums it up, I, do not make any sense, and you, "heard" it on the internet, so it must be true.
Got it, now.

[SBB]

We'll I guess that sums it up, I do not make any sense, and you, "heard" it on the internet, so it must be true.
Got it, now.

Scott-----> 

 


SBB

[Unbalanced]

Scotty,

You are somewhat right not everything on the internet is true, but if you/someone were to take a poll I am sure you will find that that consensus of opinion is that that dyno is one of the happiest in the land.        

[hard10]

Scotty,

You are somewhat right not everything on the internet is true, but if you/someone were to take a poll I am sure you will find that that consensus of opinion is that that dyno is one of the happiest in the land.        

Harry, I thought everything I read on the internet was true. Or was that just everything you wrote?

[SBB]

Harry, I thought everything I read on the internet was true. Or was that just everything you wrote?

                                                                   

[timtoolman]

Thought this was a discussion about 400-6 woods cams  not dynos!!!!!

[laylonlor]

yea thats what i thought , i want to here some info on the tw 400 cause i'got one  coming in a few days

[timtoolman]

as i said before  , i loved the torque it made, and bob woods was right it started around 2000  and went till rev limiter, and it can be made to sound quiet if you set it up right, just dont throw it in and run it

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

That 400 is a torque-monster, set up correctly.
Scott

[timtoolman]

make sure you have the correct springs with the correct seat preassure , correct rocker arms and ensure there is enough spring clearance around springs in the boxes and rocker covers and i added the baisley oil by pass spring and ran 50 wt oil, and a import thing is to ensure the pushrod is seated the correct depth in the lifter.  this is different with pushrod  brands  and lifters. do all of this and it should be a quiet cam,  as mine is as quiet as a stock engine at idle

[laylonlor]

thanks for the info , i got dewey taking care of these things, can wait to blast off

[timtoolman]

good  good luck and have fun,  let us know how it feels

[Zinister]

I'm also looking at this cam. I was going to put a 7h in but I want to try and get a leg up on my buddys 08 Dyna CVO and he runs a 7h.

What were your results with the 400-6?

[timtoolman]

i sent you a p.m.  i talked to scott up at hillside  im going to reinstall my 400-6 with his stg 4 heads and my woods springs and lifters  we are shooting for 120 and 120 in my 107.  the tw7 isnt enough,  also  check out their  green air filter  wow wow wow !!  i just put it on mine with the dorhtery power pack    holy chit!   it changed my v.e. tables in the tts

[HD Street Performance]

The 400-6 is an animal. Lots of torque early and doesn't die on top.
Spoke to Bobby Wood last week on the topic and he recomends the TW555. This is a logical choice for the 110 however I have not personally tried it yet. This is a bolt-in. I expect this cam to surpass the TW7 as a bolt-in for all of the late TC motors. the TW555 already has proven that in the TC 96-107".
The 400 is not a bolt-in and it takes a lot of preparation and special parts to make them work right $$.
All things considered most will choose the bolt-in and be satisfied. Engine warrenty factors in too for some and an agreement with the dealer, the what ifs need to be asked, if that is a concern??

[timtoolman]

don is right about the 400-6  it isnt a bolt in cam, but wow  the power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,    i talked to bob and he told me the 555 is a combination of the tw6 and the th7  ,  it has the early valve opening of the tw6 with the upper end power of the tw7,  if you are currently using either cam he said it wouldnt be worth changing out to the 555,  but it does crank out the torque and it stomps the  andrews  54h hands down

[timtoolman]

also remember the 400-6 is designed to be a torque cam even though it has a 650 lift  and massive torque is what it makes, a well designed set of stage 3 or 4 heads will carry the cam to the higher horsepower range,  hp/trq  values of 120 to 130 trq  and  upper 120's to lower 130's are attainable

[laylonlor]

that 120/130 you speak of, what cubic in would that be

[timtoolman]

a 107  cuin

[laylonlor]

i could live with them results

[timtoolman]

according to scott  its even possible to get higher numbers out of the 107 and that cam ,  120/120  is a everyday setup

[HD Street Performance]

Come on man give it a rest.
The numbers mean nothing out of context of the whole build with all relevant information posted including the sheet. Even then there are leveling factors like the year of the bike 6sp models VS the older 5sp.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Don,
Tim was just commenting on what has been displayed on dyno's, all over the country, with our 107" bore with our cylinder heads.
The gearbox is not a factor as long as the mechanical leverage is not used while tuning, and a 1:1 ratio is maintained.
Another thing is, with those cam profiles of either the 400, or 408, the torque is flatter, that pi$$ on a platter.
Scott

[HD Street Performance]

Of course I know and knew that. But really a 5 speed bike will HP better than the later ones and there is a gaggle of 110 owners that hear these numbers being thrown around and have the logic, if the 107 got 120/120 well I have 3 more inches I will definately hit 125/125. Maybe a handful will but there will be many that don't. The pipe tune and heads will be some of what may hold them back.
No discredit to you or the cams, just being real.
I sell the cams and have experienced the same and my own personal bike has a Wood TW408-6, which incidentally with Bobbys help is working real well. Clutch is slipping so bad I have to fix that before I run for dyno numbers

[timtoolman]

i just dont care anymore  guys