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Author Topic: Question for the experts about tensioner  (Read 9560 times)

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Phantom309

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Question for the experts about tensioner
« on: August 03, 2014, 05:32:23 PM »

I did a search and have been sifting through threads about the primary auto tensioner since last night and still can't find what I'm after ... almost like reading oil threads, there are so many different opinions. I have a tad over 1000 miles on my new bike and ready to drop the oil and pour in the good stuff, but I'm at a stand-still until somebody can answer this ... Can I grind the teeth off the stock auto tensioner so it would be more like a floating action like the Hayden piece? Are the springs strong enough for proper tension without the teeth? Has anybody even tried this?

My mind works in weird ways sometimes and I just want what's best for my bike for the long haul. The hundred bucks for the Hayden isn't the issue, I just like the idea of the bigger wear shoe on the stock one compared to the Hayden. The Hayden looks plenty thick, but to me the stock shoe looks like it would carry the load better since it's longer and has more surface area. What do you guys think?   
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Twolanerider

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2014, 07:49:50 PM »

I did a search and have been sifting through threads about the primary auto tensioner since last night and still can't find what I'm after ... almost like reading oil threads, there are so many different opinions. I have a tad over 1000 miles on my new bike and ready to drop the oil and pour in the good stuff, but I'm at a stand-still until somebody can answer this ... Can I grind the teeth off the stock auto tensioner so it would be more like a floating action like the Hayden piece? Are the springs strong enough for proper tension without the teeth? Has anybody even tried this?

My mind works in weird ways sometimes and I just want what's best for my bike for the long haul. The hundred bucks for the Hayden isn't the issue, I just like the idea of the bigger wear shoe on the stock one compared to the Hayden. The Hayden looks plenty thick, but to me the stock shoe looks like it would carry the load better since it's longer and has more surface area. What do you guys think?

Nope.
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Phantom309

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2014, 08:27:35 PM »

Nope.

Why not? Does is sound like a bad idea to you? Most people are bitchin about the chain being too tight and a couple said with the Hayden the chain seemed even tighter so I'm confused. I thought the Hayden prevented it from being over-tighted since the springs give it a floating action since there are no teeth like the stocker preventing it from backing off. So why not try grinding the teeth off so it floats? I hate to use my new bike for a guinea pig and thought some of the experienced gearheads in here would've tried what I want to do or know somebody that did before I do mine.
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05Train

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2014, 08:35:23 PM »

The Hayden is a great idea, but in my case the springs were too strong.  I'd be happy to send mine to you (only 300 miles on it) for $75 shipped.
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Phantom309

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2014, 08:44:13 PM »

The Hayden is a great idea, but in my case the springs were too strong.  I'd be happy to send mine to you (only 300 miles on it) for $75 shipped.

Did you put the stock tensioner back in? Thanks for the offer, but I'm leery about it if some guys are taking them out. I don't get it ... you read some of the posts about the Hayden and everyone talks like it's the best thing since apple pie. I watched the vid of the bike running with the Hayden and you could see it floating when it was revved. Any vids like that with the stock tensioner??

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Twolanerider

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2014, 09:12:54 PM »

Strongly doubt you'll find anyone that has (willingly or sober) taken a stock piece that was never designed nor intended to function as a hydraulically supported tensioner and then taken that part to a handy bench grinder hoping it will thereafter semi-mysteriously learn how to function hydraulically as opposed to the Hayden part that was designed and intended to work that day from its inception.

However....  should you wish to pursue this endeavor, to be the trailblazer, to exhibit the bench grinding fortitude and industriousness necessary to be your own Westinghouse to Hayden's JP Morgan then please do produce the video also.  I'll look forward to it.   :vrolijk_11:
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2014, 09:14:04 PM »

On Harleytechtalk there are some who have spot welded their HD tensioner in place so it can't overtighten and will never loosen either.
I believe if you do it the way you want, there would be no tension on the stock HD adjuster to keep the chain tight.
I had the Hayden in my 2010 (old style with weaker springs) and had no problems with it-whine etc like some have reported.
Will not put the Hayden in the 14..  I may put the GMR compensaver tray in for increased oil to the outer hub/needle bearing (more than the HD drip tray)..
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2014, 10:53:31 PM »

Strongly doubt you'll find anyone that has (willingly or sober) taken a stock piece that was never designed nor intended to function as a hydraulically supported tensioner and then taken that part to a handy bench grinder hoping it will thereafter semi-mysteriously learn how to function hydraulically as opposed to the Hayden part that was designed and intended to work that day from its inception.

However....  should you wish to pursue this endeavor, to be the trailblazer, to exhibit the bench grinding fortitude and industriousness necessary to be your own Westinghouse to Hayden's JP Morgan then please do produce the video also.  I'll look forward to it.   :vrolijk_11:

 :zroflmao: :zroflmao: :zroflmao:

Yeah, what he said!   :huepfenlol2:  :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2014, 11:17:54 PM »

Why not get the old manually adjustable units. Check it every
15,000 miles and adjust as needed or gets noisy.
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Phantom309

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2014, 11:46:37 PM »

Strongly doubt you'll find anyone that has (willingly or sober) taken a stock piece that was never designed nor intended to function as a hydraulically supported tensioner and then taken that part to a handy bench grinder hoping it will thereafter semi-mysteriously learn how to function hydraulically as opposed to the Hayden part that was designed and intended to work that day from its inception.

However....  should you wish to pursue this endeavor, to be the trailblazer, to exhibit the bench grinding fortitude and industriousness necessary to be your own Westinghouse to Hayden's JP Morgan then please do produce the video also.  I'll look forward to it.   :vrolijk_11:

I never mentioned anything about hydraulics which has nothing to do with the stock primary tensioner that is spring loaded just like the Hayden. I will most likely leave well enough alone ... I just wanted to know how it would function without the teeth since it would still have spring pressure. I'm trying to understand how it works is all and you had to be a funny guy, thanks for the help. 
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Mount'nman

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2014, 11:59:00 PM »

Beware the Hayden unless you can get the full .5" spacing they spec.  On my 2014 CVO BO with 12K miles I could get only 3/8ths...  guess chain has not stretched much... I tried it any way and by 13k miles it was making lots of noise.  When I opened the primary up I found the chain worn way into the block.  Put the stock unit back in. 

Had the Hayden in my 2011 ST Conv and it worked perfectly but had enough spacing on that bike.
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2014, 12:07:31 AM »

I never mentioned anything about hydraulics which has nothing to do with the stock primary tensioner that is spring loaded just like the Hayden. I will most likely leave well enough alone ... I just wanted to know how it would function without the teeth since it would still have spring pressure. I'm trying to understand how it works is all and you had to be a funny guy, thanks for the help.

Trying to get across that what you're suggesting perhaps isn't the greatest of ideas was the help.  Suggesting, to begin with, that "nope" NO ONE has done this didn't get the idea across (apparently).  So then, yeah, I played a bit. 

Whether it's spring tension and fluid supported or spring and locking teeth you're still talking about two entirely different parts doing (yes, similar) jobs in different ways.  Grinding the stock piece will accomplish one of at least a few thing.  It won't be ground on a smooth plane so the shoe will wear badly.  Without the teeth to hold it in place I could easily see the mechanism moving or "chattering" which could lead to the shoe wearing badly or other harmonics that lead to metal fatigue and premature failure.  None of the rivets on the articulating arms are all that big to begin with and it's not designed for any side loading that could at least potentially result from that oh-so-careful bench grinding.  On top of all that the rivets/pins/whatever-they-are that attach the articulating arms to the plastic shoe aren't designed to be serviceable parts like the shoe on the old manual tensioner was.  So once you got it apart to do this work with the bench grinder reassembly may be more interesting than you're anticipating (and more prone to failure).

You can still buy the manual tensioner.  Or the Hayden.  Or the... well; the point is why in hell would you jeopardize the primary and spend hours doing it when for just a few bucks there are parts out there ready made to get the job done.  Being able to say "oooh, look what I did" is cool.  But it's got to be worthwhile and have a risk/reward that makes sense.

That's ok, grind away my friend, I'm done.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 12:18:44 AM »

Just reread the above.  Think two things were going on.  Original poster was (originally) more thin skinned than he needed to be (first real response wasn't all that bad) and I'm in a pissy mood. 

Was out in the shop for awhile this evening taking a little time to reassemble an engine that's been waiting on me way too long.  I have very few "prized" possessions or items that have an emotional attachment.  Generally stuff is just stuff.  But among those prized possession are my dad's tools.  He had good stuff.  Career machinist and mechanic.

So I'm out in the shop and grab the ratcheting pliers for the correct size ring compressor, squeeze it down a little as I have thousands times before, square everything up, get ready to rap the piston a bit and squeeze harder on the compressor and one of the ears brakes off dad's old ring compressor.  Unrepairable (in any worthwhile way).  Not a valuable too.  Can replace the entire set for probably a hundred bucks.  But can't replace dad's ring compressor.  Dammit.

... which is to say, to the original poster, yeah, I was pissy.  Sorry.  But don't go grinding up the stock part.  It's not a great idea.  This comes from a guy who has taken a lot of parts to the grinder too.  Heed the advice of Monty Python or Doctor Who and "run away!"
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2014, 12:14:00 PM »


I'm not exactly understanding why someone with what they think is a brilliant idea would first seek affirmation of the brilliance of the idea from a bunch of strangers on a web forum, and then get pissy about a response that basically tells the truth, which is it's not a very good idea.  And the fact that not one soul on this entire site has come back to answer the question "has anyone else done this" should tell the OP something.

If you are so unsure of your idea that you need some stranger to tell you it's OK to do it, I'd submit you already know the real answer, and that would be to forget modifying the stock tensioner and buy something that was actually designed by someone with the engineering knowledge necessary to do it right.  If you don't want a Hayden, just leave the stock one in place or get a manual adjuster.  Manual adjusters worked fine on the '06 and earlier bikes.  Of course you'll need to remove the outer primary cover to make any adjustment, but it isn't necessary all that often after the initial break-in of the chain and sprockets.  But by all means, go ahead and butcher your stock part if you want, then go back later and fix the damage plus buy a new tensioner.  It's only time and money.

If you're looking for a sugar coated response, I'm the wrong guy for that.  Sorry.

Jerry
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Re: Question for the experts about tensioner
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2014, 12:40:19 PM »

I have not done this, but I did give the same thought some consideration the last time I had it out (2 weeks ago).

I would be willing to bet that the springs on the stock piece are far too weak to work this way, and this is my reasoning:

The spring's task in the stock design is to lift the block during the slack phase of the chain (under acceleration) to 'get another tooth' on the ramp, if there is enough wear to allow it.

Importantly, the springs don't do anything during the taut phase (decel) as the teeth on the ramp provide the support to keep the shoe from any downward travel.

If the teeth were removed (lets just assume 'smoothly milled') then the springs would in no way be heavy enough to support the taut phase and the chain would be slamming the shoe all the way down during decel and slapping about under acceleration.

That's all conjecture on my part, based on wild supposition.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 12:47:24 PM by MrSurly »
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