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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: Fullsac Performance on September 26, 2017, 09:20:30 PM
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I tore into my 2017 today to install a 120 piston kit. While I was in there I decided to remove the piston oilers and see if there was any truth to the possibility of them being loose and leaking additional oil into the crankcase. The bolts were not loose and I couldn't find any wiggle in them, pulled them off anyways. The first thing I noticed that didn't seem right was the gaskets being completely soaked in oil. The next thing that I noticed was the material around the threads was raised creating a hi spot. So I laid the squirter back in place with out the gasket and sure enough it was rocking now.
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I took a look at the underside of the squriter and you could see where the hi spot was making contact. It even looked as if it had been slightly relieved from the factory, but not enough. I took a 45 deg counter sink and removed material until they sat flat with out rocking.
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This is a very interesting observation.
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Cleaned everything real good and reinstalled with the gasket and ThreeBond case sealer. Did I fix anything? I would have told you my bike had no sumping issues.
I'm not so sure now?. I am convinced it was bypassing additional oil into the lower end. If I ever split the cases, I will install restrictors in front of the piston oilers to ensure it can't dump excessive amounts of oil into the lower end even if the oil bypasses the jet. The current oil passages feeding the squirters is over .250.
That is huge!
Steve@fullsac.com
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If the cases were apart it would be real easy to drill and tap the passage and install a restrictor. Same thing we have been doing to small block Chevys for years.
Wouldn't be surprised if bumping the oil pressure up makes the plate flex, lift and leak even more. It should have been o ringed and 1/4 20 on the bolts too.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Great work and investigation into the oilers. Thanks for sharing.
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40+ psig of 220+F motor oil can do all sorts of interesting things.
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40+ psig of 220+F motor oil can do all sorts of interesting things.
Do the Stage IV kits get an upgraded oil pump?
Steve@fullsac.com
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Do the Stage IV kits get an upgraded oil pump?
Steve@fullsac.com
It depends on what pump version is already in the case.
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Do the Stage IV kits get an upgraded oil pump?
Steve@fullsac.com
I was told by several people at Harley that they are shipping the new high performance oil pumps with the stage IV kits. However I don't know what to believe from them anymore.
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I tore into my 2017 today to install a 120 piston kit. While I was in there I decided to remove the piston oilers and see if there was any truth to the possibility of them being loose and leaking additional oil into the crankcase. The bolts were not loose and I couldn't find any wiggle in them, pulled them off anyways. The first thing I noticed that didn't seem right was the gaskets being completely soaked in oil. The next thing that I noticed was the material around the threads was raised creating a hi spot. So I laid the squirter back in place with out the gasket and sure enough it was rocking now.
Dam...it we told the HD Mechanics to keep adding more gaskets ‘til the rock’in stopped and then tighten it up. :soapbox: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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Dam...it we told the HD Mechanics to keep adding more gaskets ‘til the rock’in stopped and then tighten it up. :soapbox: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
That's not going fix the issue. Those little threads are pulled up for a reason. Either the little weak bolts were over tightened, or something (oil pressure) is pushing on them real hard trying to tear them out. Add a a little flex at the ears of the plate and we have a shower head instead of a controlled amount of oil.
Steve@fullsac.com
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That's not going fix the issue. Those little threads are pulled up for a reason. Either the little weak bolts were over tightened, or something (oil pressure) is pushing on them real hard trying to tear them out. Add a a little flex at the ears of the plate and we have a shower head instead of a controlled amount of oil.
Steve@fullsac.com
Steve:
I sure hope you know I was just kidding. :D :D
Best Regards
Jerry
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Steve:
I sure hope you know I was just kidding. :D :D
Best Regards
Jerry
Sorry, I'm a little slow these days. lol..
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The photo sure looks like the threads are pulling, causing the high spot. Is that the case, or is something else going on? If the threads are actually pulling, it makes me wonder how many will eventually fail completely and allow a bunch of oil to flood the crankcase. Adding a relief to the cooling jet at the mounting bolt holes won't fix the problem if the threads and surrounding material have been compromised.
Jerry :nixweiss:
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IMHO that is not the look of threads pulling but rather tapping that hole after the surface was machined. Would have to see it up close to say for sure though.
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IMHO that is not the look of threads pulling but rather tapping that hole after the surface was machined. Would have to see it up close to say for sure though.
That's what I originally thought as well, but if the drill and tap operation was done properly there shouldn't have been that raised area. I've seen spot facing done both before and after drilling and tapping operations, and I've never seen what I saw in that photo. Leave it to Harley to find a way though.
Jerry
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The photo sure looks like the threads are pulling, causing the high spot. Is that the case, or is something else going on? If the threads are actually pulling, it makes me wonder how many will eventually fail completely and allow a bunch of oil to flood the crankcase. Adding a relief to the cooling jet at the mounting bolt holes won't fix the problem if the threads and surrounding material have been compromised.
Jerry :nixweiss:
For those of us with less experienced eyes - can you (or Steve) get a copy of the photo to post with arrows pointing to the areas you are seeing that are suspect. Trying to understand but I just don't have the degree of technical experience you guys do.
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I suppose you can always drill them out and put stainless inserts in to strengthen them up as a preventive measure.
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I suppose you can always drill them out and put stainless inserts in to strengthen them up as a preventive measure.
Pretty sure they're talking about the area right around the hole itself. Almost looks like a metal o-ring to me that shouldn't be there.
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Look closely at the photo in OP. Raised metal ridges around the tapped threads preventing the squirter jet from sitting flush.
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Look at the edge around each threaded hole. It is raised above the surface, which keeps the body of the piston jet from fitting flat to the case.
Jerry
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Look at the edge around each threaded hole. It is raised above the surface, which keeps the body of the piston jet from fitting flat to the case.
Jerry
Got it. Thanks. :2vrolijk_21:
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If this is causing the sumping, it's hard to believe (though not really) the MoCo hasn't pinpointed it yet. If it's a manufacturing flaw, I could see the bean counters refusing to issue a recall.
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If this is causing the sumping, it's hard to believe (though not really) the MoCo hasn't pinpointed it yet. If it's a manufacturing flaw, I could see the bean counters refusing to issue a recall.
It has to become an epidemic before it would ever get "acknowledged" as an actual problem. Then somebody smart has to get involved. With that said,
I'm not the one who figured this one out. Lol..
Steve@fullsac.com
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For reference, the original twin cam camplates have one less oil supply hole than their 2000-2006 counterparts. If installing the latter plate into the earlier engine this hole needs to be plugged. It's only about 1/4" diameter but if not plugged will fill the camchest with oil (at idle with the cheap old oil pump) in about a minute.
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Good stuff Steve. Thanks for letting us know.
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Does this effect all M8's or just the 114?
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Bringing this back to life.
Any issues with your engine after finding this?
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I just have to ask.... Could the people on the line making the Harleys just not care because of the economic issues affecting the motor company. pressure to produce faster than they want too. I believe that an unhappy employee can cause so many issues, production and moral come to mind. I visited the assembly plant in York, Pa. not blaming them just that they are a factory like so many others. You piss me off, i piss you off. So can it be unhappy employees or just not knowledgeable workers.
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I just have to ask.... Could the people on the line making the Harleys just not care because of the economic issues affecting the motor company. pressure to produce faster than they want too. I believe that an unhappy employee can cause so many issues, production and moral come to mind. I visited the assembly plant in York, Pa. not blaming them just that they are a factory like so many others. You piss me off, i piss you off. So can it be unhappy employees or just not knowledgeable workers.
The drilling and tapping of those holes is automated. A machine setup person could do a half-azzed job setting up the equipment I suppose, or the process engineer who designed and set up the machining operation could have made a mistake or left out a step, or the tooling used to secure the bolts may be over-tightening the bolts and pulling the threads, or :nixweiss:. I'm familiar with the kind of attitude issues you mentioned in assembly plants, since I worked in a few automotive assembly plants over the years. This doesn't look like sabotage to me, just another screw-up by the MoCo.
Jerry
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Was made aware of it back in 17.. Funny these automated install, the screw is self tapping . Run the screw in further back it out a few times and remove the silly plastic off the gasket and its tight now. That bike had a 114 drop on kit installed over a year ago. We just bumped it to a 120 . So I got to go back in. Gasket dry no oil leaking around it . Bike was not sumping then still not . On the dyno soon . Parts out for gnarly cut .
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Is it worth tearing down if you're not going to increase the size of your engine for peace of mind to check these piston jet oilers? I have a 2017 CVO Limited with 6700 miles on it. Runs pretty good and haven't had any issues yet? Or should I just install the S&S cam plate and oil pump to mask the issue if it ever arises?
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If it was mine I would.
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I have decided to do the SS oil pump and cam plate on my 19 CVO Rg!! Pretty sad I don’t have faith in the stock parts on a 45G bike!!!!
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Me too, but I'm waiting for the warranty to expire next April.
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Is it worth tearing down if you're not going to increase the size of your engine for peace of mind to check these piston jet oilers? I have a 2017 CVO Limited with 6700 miles on it. Runs pretty good and haven't had any issues yet? Or should I just install the S&S cam plate and oil pump to mask the issue if it ever arises?
The S&S set-up is around $800 and you didn't say if you were gonna do the work yourself to check the piston oilers. You have to pull the jugs to get that done not sure how much that would cost. I was planning on checking mine when I get ready to do 124 kit. I do my own work & figure what I save in labor will pay for most of the parts / upgrades. The new HD Pump supposedly has an increase of around 30% scavenging ability which is around where the S&S is. If your not gonna do this soon, wait / watch to see I any 20's are sumping. (If HD ever sells any). The HD pump would be around $80 not $800. I know you said you were not interested in going bigger but when the motor is torn down that far you could do a piston kit for between $400-$1000 depending weather you ordered new jugs or have them bored , its not gonna change your reassembly time much if at all. As for myself when my piston kit gets here gonna check those oilers, install the new jugs and if I don't hear any issues with the new pump order / install the new one with the backing plate and call it a day. Good luck with your choices
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I can share that the S&S pump and plate does not always fix the sumping issue, S&S will actually tell you it is not a solution for sumping.
I had to remove it and install the HD pump w seal to stop my sumping issue, even after fixing the piston jet oilers that were loose as well as replacing scored junk Stage lll 117 jugs and psitons. Fueling makes the claim it will help w sumping.
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I can share that the S&S pump and plate does not always fix the sumping issue, S&S will actually tell you it is not a solution for sumping.
I had to remove it and install the HD pump w seal to stop my sumping issue, even after fixing the piston jet oilers that were loose as well as replacing scored junk Stage lll 117 jugs and psitons. Fueling makes the claim it will help w sumping.
This is unfortunate news. I was hoping the S&S pump was the silver bullet.
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ME TOO!!!! Can’t believe I just paid over 45G cash for this bike in July and I’m already trying to fix issues!!!!Just INSANE!!
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ME TOO!!!! Can’t believe I just paid over 45G cash for this bike in July and I’m already trying to fix issues!!!!Just INSANE!!
Dealers will tell you that Harley has not sent a notice out about that issue, but, don’t worry, you have a full warranty and when it locks up they will “take care of you “
:drink:
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For me at least, when someone or some company says "they will take care of me", my sphincter muscles start to REALLY tense up.
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I do plan on doing the work myself, probably just before spring. Going bigger will add a bit more cash to the table as it is. I was planning on doing a Woods WM8-22x cam, Woods directional lifters, Fuelmoto pushrods, S&S cam plate and oil pump, Fuelmoto Jackpot XXX head pipe with Jackpot high roller mufflers and a ThunderMax ECM to run the whole kit and caboodle. I considered the Powervision for a moment but I really don't want anything on my handlebars. I live in Colorado at 6800 feet and on any daily ride I can change altitude all the way to 14000 feet pretty quickly and as it is right now with my bike totally stock, it runs fine at 6800 feet but when I get up higher it pings really bad. I've always had good luck with the ThunderMax as it self tunes and I've never pinged with one of those. I do have the ESP warranty still in effect and I can do the work to put it all back it something happens to the engine.
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I do plan on doing the work myself, probably just before spring. Going bigger will add a bit more cash to the table as it is. I was planning on doing a Woods WM8-22x cam, Woods directional lifters, Fuelmoto pushrods, S&S cam plate and oil pump, Fuelmoto Jackpot XXX head pipe with Jackpot high roller mufflers and a ThunderMax ECM to run the whole kit and caboodle. I considered the Powervision for a moment but I really don't want anything on my handlebars. I live in Colorado at 6800 feet and on any daily ride I can change altitude all the way to 14000 feet pretty quickly and as it is right now with my bike totally stock, it runs fine at 6800 feet but when I get up higher it pings really bad. I've always had good luck with the ThunderMax as it self tunes and I've never pinged with one of those. I do have the ESP warranty still in effect and I can do the work to put it all back it something happens to the engine.
the power vision does not have to stay anywhere on the bike plug in remap unplug and forget about it that's what I did
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Me too!!! I Mapped my ECU using the power vision, now it sits on my desk... WORKS awesome.
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the power vision does not have to stay anywhere on the bike plug in remap unplug and forget about it that's what I did
Will the Power Vision set a flag on the CAN-BUS that can be detected by the HD Digital Tech and cause a risk in the HD warranty being cancelled?
As I am sure you know, this would be important if you were on the road out of town and had to go to a dealer.
Regards
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YES, every tuner that is non-epa approved (which is all of them except the H-D Street Tuner) will leave a trace that H-D can and will use to void your drivetrain warranty.
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That is one of the reason's I didn't want to go with the Power Vision and use the TMax. It is also the reason I didn't want to go bigger on the jugs and pistons as well. I can always do a quick pipe and cam swap but not a jug swap if something happens under warranty. Not to mention is I upgrade the jugs an piston's, I'm on the hook for stronger valve springs, a bigger intake with larger fuel injectors and the list goes on. If I stay with the 114 jugs and the cam I mentioned along with the other stuff I will have a really great running engine. I probably will go in and check the piston jet oilers for peace of mind.
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YES, every tuner that is non-epa approved (which is all of them except the H-D Street Tuner) will leave a trace that H-D can and will use to void your drivetrain warranty.
I thought the TTS Mastertuner did not leave a fingerprint a lot of people on this board posted as such.
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I thought the TTS Mastertuner did not leave a fingerprint a lot of people on this board posted as such.
Initially, the TTS would allow you to return to stock without a footprint. However, the HD DT was updated and WILL detect TTS use.
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I thought the TTS Mastertuner did not leave a fingerprint a lot of people on this board posted as such.
That was true for many years, but in the past year I've questioned this on the site and got no definitive answer. I think I recommended people actually contact Mr. Cole of TTS with that question, no one has come back and posted a response as far as I can tell.
Anyone who buys a new Harley and is concerned about the factory warranty should automatically assume any powertrain modifications other than those certified by Harley as street legal will be grounds for voiding the powertrain portion of the factory warranty. The most obvious and easily detected modification is a tune, which is checked any time a dealership attaches their diagnostic equipment to the bike. Internal mods aren't as obvious, but can still be detected if you have a failure that requires disassembly for diagnosis and repair. If anyone is in a position where having to pay for a major failure out of pocket would be a big problem, they probably shouldn't modify anything more involved than perhaps a muffler. If Harley's were highly reliable and had no major ongoing issues, it wouldn't be a huge risk.
JMHO - Jerry
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That was true for many years, but in the past year I've questioned this on the site and got no definitive answer. I think I recommended people actually contact Mr. Cole of TTS with that question, no one has come back and posted a response as far as I can tell.
Anyone who buys a new Harley and is concerned about the factory warranty should automatically assume any powertrain modifications other than those certified by Harley as street legal will be grounds for voiding the powertrain portion of the factory warranty. The most obvious and easily detected modification is a tune, which is checked any time a dealership attaches their diagnostic equipment to the bike. Internal mods aren't as obvious, but can still be detected if you have a failure that requires disassembly for diagnosis and repair. If anyone is in a position where having to pay for a major failure out of pocket would be a big problem, they probably shouldn't modify anything more involved than perhaps a muffler. If Harley's were highly reliable and had no major ongoing issues, it wouldn't be a huge risk.
JMHO - Jerry
Well said.
Sent from my boring Droid phone.