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CVO Social => In The News => Topic started by: DesertHOG on June 25, 2018, 09:07:40 AM

Title: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: DesertHOG on June 25, 2018, 09:07:40 AM
Harley-Davidson will move some production out of US after retaliatory tariffs

By Nathaniel Meyersohn June 25, 2018: 8:30 AM ET
Harley-Davidson is already taking a hit in the trade fight between President Trump and European allies.

The company is shifting some production of motorcycles for European customers out of the United States to avoid EU retaliatory tariffs.

The EU is imposing tariffs on $3.2 billion worth of American goods, including motorcycles, orange juice, bourbon, peanut butter, motorboats, cigarettes and denim. They are a response to the Trump administration's tariffs on steel and aluminum imports from Europe.
For motorcycles, the EU is raising its 6% tariff to 31%. That will make each bike about $2,200 more expensive to export, Harley said. Harley is not raising prices for customers. The company said it will take a hit of $30 million to $45 million for the rest of this year.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: muddypaws on June 25, 2018, 09:21:41 AM
I don't think that will help sales.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Rooster on June 25, 2018, 09:23:51 AM
Well I guess they could give up 2k out of 7or8k profit :huepfenjump3:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Twolanerider on June 25, 2018, 01:34:38 PM
Saw that article earlier this morning Simon.  Notice nowhere does it say the jobs/production are moving to Europe.  Only says that production will move to a place not impacted so badly by European tariffs.  Many labor markets are in countries that don't pay high EU tariffs.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: iski on June 25, 2018, 02:07:26 PM
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2018/06/25/Harley-Davidson-moves-European-production-out-of-US/1221529934709/ (https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2018/06/25/Harley-Davidson-moves-European-production-out-of-US/1221529934709/)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/money/harley-davidson-to-shift-production-overseas-to-offset-eu-tariffs/ar-AAz8ATr (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/money/harley-davidson-to-shift-production-overseas-to-offset-eu-tariffs/ar-AAz8ATr)

Global economy forces global companies to think globally.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: DesertHOG on June 25, 2018, 02:12:07 PM
Saw that article earlier this morning Simon.  Notice nowhere does it say the jobs/production are moving to Europe.  Only says that production will move to a place not impacted so badly by European tariffs.  Many labor markets are in countries that don't pay high EU tariffs.

Ok. Apparently that excludes production in America.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 25, 2018, 04:14:46 PM
Financially it's a smart move for the MoCo. By building overseas they can avoid the trade tariffs and make the company more money. And by employing foreign workers they may build a better relationship with foreign governments as they no doubt will have to pay fees, licensing, taxes and all that. If the MoCo is able to, they should move production to a poor 3rd world country where labor is really cheap, and there are few if any enforced restrictions on industrial waste. A Harley made in Pakistan and sent to Europe does not bear the same trade tariff as one made in the USA. They can pay pennies on the dollar for day labor, and dump waste without fear of environmental reprisals.

We might benefit too. With cheaper wages, no unions, and no EPA guidelines perhaps the cost of the bikes and parts might come down a bit. Or the profit could go to those at the top.

The only folks getting the short end of the deal are the American workers who may lose their jobs and the communities that depend on their income. I'm not saying it's right, but I guess that's what comes with it.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: DesertHOG on June 25, 2018, 04:26:10 PM
Financially it's a smart move for the MoCo. By building overseas they can avoid the trade tariffs and make the company more money. And by employing foreign workers they may build a better relationship with foreign governments as they no doubt will have to pay fees, licensing, taxes and all that. If the MoCo is able to, they should move production to a poor 3rd world country where labor is really cheap, and there are few if any enforced restrictions on industrial waste. A Harley made in Pakistan and sent to Europe does not bear the same trade tariff as one made in the USA. They can pay pennies on the dollar for day labor, and dump waste without fear of environmental reprisals.

We might benefit too. With cheaper wages, no unions, and no EPA guidelines perhaps the cost of the bikes and parts might come down a bit. Or the profit could go to those at the top.

The only folks getting the short end of the deal are the American workers who may lose their jobs and the communities that depend on their income. I'm not saying it's right, but I guess that's what comes with it.


Unemployment

The U.S. Unemployment Rate Is Now the Lowest It's Been This Century. ... The jobless rate fell to 3.9%, the lowest since December 2000, after six months at 4.1%.

Job Openings

On the last business day of April, the job openings level was little changed but reached a new series
high of 6.7 million. The series began in December 2000. The job openings rate was 4.3 percent in April
2018. The number of job openings was little changed for total private and for government. Job openings
increased in durable goods manufacturing (+33,000) and information (+26,000) but decreased in finance
and insurance (-84,000). The number of job openings was little changed in all four regions.

Personal Observations on Jobs

I was driving the backcountry roads of Missouri and Kansas my last trip. Lots of "Jobs Available" signs on gas stations, convenience stores, and small manufacturing plants. I'm sure any displaced workers can find a job if they really want one, maybe even two jobs since a lot of jobs these days are part-time to reduce the burden of benefits costs on employers.
 
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 25, 2018, 05:00:19 PM

Unemployment

The U.S. Unemployment Rate Is Now the Lowest It's Been This Century. ... The jobless rate fell to 3.9%, the lowest since December 2000, after six months at 4.1%.

Job Openings

On the last business day of April, the job openings level was little changed but reached a new series
high of 6.7 million. The series began in December 2000. The job openings rate was 4.3 percent in April
2018. The number of job openings was little changed for total private and for government. Job openings
increased in durable goods manufacturing (+33,000) and information (+26,000) but decreased in finance
and insurance (-84,000). The number of job openings was little changed in all four regions.

Personal Observations on Jobs

I was driving the backcountry roads of Missouri and Kansas my last trip. Lots of "Jobs Available" signs on gas stations, convenience stores, and small manufacturing plants. I'm sure any displaced workers can find a job if they really want one, maybe even two jobs since a lot of jobs these days are part-time to reduce the burden of benefits costs on employers.

That's good to know, I'm sure any workers who get displaced will be glad to hear that.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: grc on June 25, 2018, 05:11:29 PM
The official unemployment numbers are very misleading, since they only count people who are actively seeking employment.  It's easy to figure out who is supposedly "actively seeking employment" when those people are collecting unemployment benefits.  Once the benefits run out, people don't have much incentive to keep reporting to the local unemployment office and they usually don't get counted.  The other part that government statistics don't reflect is how many people are under-employed.  That would include people who only found part time jobs, or people who had to settle for a job paying much less than they made before.  And then we have those who just don't want a job.  An excellent example is the 30 year old leech in the news recently because his parents went to court to have him evicted from their house.  Think about all those families you know who have adult children still living at home.  If you want to look at statistics, don't just look at the highly inaccurate unemployment rate, also look at the participation rate.

My point is that government statistics paint a much too rosy picture.  Reality is that the middle class in this country is shrinking, and that 75%-80% of the total wealth is now controlled by the top 10% of the population.  The bottom 50% basically has no wealth, as they live from paycheck to paycheck and have nothing or next to nothing saved.  All of this is in stark contrast to the economics of this nation back in the 1950's through 1970's, when anyone who wanted a job could easily get one and real wages and buying power were rising.  We can thank the policies that off-shored the good well paid manufacturing jobs and replaced them with low wage service jobs for much of this change.

Btw, I also see lots of signs advertising jobs.  None are for jobs that pay wages that would actually support a family.  The spoiled youngsters of today aren't getting jobs while in high school like most of us older folks did, so there are tons of fast food jobs and wait staff jobs available.  There are plenty of minimum wage laborer type jobs as well, but you have to compete with the illegals for those.

Jerry
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 25, 2018, 05:28:07 PM
The bottom 50% basically has no wealth, as they live from paycheck to paycheck and have nothing or next to nothing saved.  All of this is in stark contrast to the economics of this nation back in the 1950's through 1970's, when anyone who wanted a job could easily get one and real wages and buying power were rising.  We can thank the policies that off-shored the good well paid manufacturing jobs and replaced them with low wage service jobs for much of this change.

Always a shameful thing to hear no doubt. But as for the MoCo, given the current situation on trade, they are doing the smart thing to keep the company making money. I heard somewhere that trade wars are good, so who knows, this may be the start of something terrific. The company will survive, regardless if they use workers here, or overseas. And who knows, maybe with Germans assembling the bikes and running engineering quality controls, perhaps there won't be as many catastrophic engine failures.

Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: kojak on June 25, 2018, 05:49:46 PM
Well said!
The official unemployment numbers are very misleading, since they only count people who are actively seeking employment.  It's easy to figure out who is supposedly "actively seeking employment" when those people are collecting unemployment benefits.  Once the benefits run out, people don't have much incentive to keep reporting to the local unemployment office and they usually don't get counted.  The other part that government statistics don't reflect is how many people are under-employed.  That would include people who only found part time jobs, or people who had to settle for a job paying much less than they made before.  And then we have those who just don't want a job.  An excellent example is the 30 year old leech in the news recently because his parents went to court to have him evicted from their house.  Think about all those families you know who have adult children still living at home.  If you want to look at statistics, don't just look at the highly inaccurate unemployment rate, also look at the participation rate.

My point is that government statistics paint a much too rosy picture.  Reality is that the middle class in this country is shrinking, and that 75%-80% of the total wealth is now controlled by the top 10% of the population.  The bottom 50% basically has no wealth, as they live from paycheck to paycheck and have nothing or next to nothing saved.  All of this is in stark contrast to the economics of this nation back in the 1950's through 1970's, when anyone who wanted a job could easily get one and real wages and buying power were rising.  We can thank the policies that off-shored the good well paid manufacturing jobs and replaced them with low wage service jobs for much of this change.

Btw, I also see lots of signs advertising jobs.  None are for jobs that pay wages that would actually support a family.  The spoiled youngsters of today aren't getting jobs while in high school like most of us older folks did, so there are tons of fast food jobs and wait staff jobs available.  There are plenty of minimum wage laborer type jobs as well, but you have to compete with the illegals for those.

Jerry
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: charles05663 on June 25, 2018, 06:08:05 PM
They have been wanting to move production overseas for a long time.  Gives them an easy out to do so without getting a lot of criticism.  Pretty soon the bikes will be label with made in XXX (fill-in the blank(not USA)) with some parts made in the USA.  Also gives them in increase in profit that the shareholders and management want (bigger bonuses).

Sad to see the way greed has shaped the world.  Like the Good Book says, "the love of money is the root of all evil."

 :oops: :nixweiss:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 25, 2018, 06:14:01 PM
They have been wanting to move production overseas for a long time.  Gives them an easy out to do so without getting a lot of criticism.  Pretty soon the bikes will be label with made in XXX (fill-in the blank(not USA)) with some parts made in the USA.  Also gives them in increase in profit that the shareholders and management want (bigger bonuses).

Sad to see the way greed has shaped the world.  Like the Good Book says, "the love of money is the root of all evil."

 :oops: :nixweiss:

Well put. Like I said, it's a good move for the MoCo. It is in essence, capitalism at it's finest. And like the previous poster said, if any workers get laid off, there is a plethora of minimum wage, no benefits jobs for them to choose from.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: King Glide on June 25, 2018, 06:57:23 PM
Let’s not forget an all together dynamic. All those extraordinarily highly paid UAW union members aren’t going to run out to get those one of those minimum wage jobs until they’re kids are starving because of their pride meanwhile, the MOCO can reset wages in Europe at a much lower rate. It’s quite a win win situation.

It might be a great time to buy some stock.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: 2002FXDWG3 on June 25, 2018, 07:10:52 PM
What is all of that slapping noise?  Just Indian management high fiving eachother.  Good luck, Harley, hanging your hat on "Made in USA".
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 25, 2018, 07:33:54 PM
What is all of that slapping noise?

Lifters and cam shafts,...LOL!!!
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: windjammer on June 25, 2018, 08:02:00 PM
Harley is downsizing production in the US due to diminishing demand and increasing production worldwide for increasing worldwide demand for their product. Sounds like a Wall Street genius running the company! Your next CVO may be built in Thiland or India maybe Brazil? Harley is doing what they must to survive.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: 2002FXDWG3 on June 25, 2018, 08:07:35 PM
Short term gains and long term losses.  Pretty much the only thing they have going for them is Made in USA.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: 2002FXDWG3 on June 25, 2018, 08:08:18 PM
Lifters and cam shafts,...LOL!!!

 :ROFLOL:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: OBB on June 25, 2018, 08:15:33 PM
What is all of that slapping noise?  Just Indian management high fiving eachother.  Good luck, Harley, hanging your hat on "Made in USA".
I'm guessing Polaris doesn't export any of their products to the EU?
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: 2002FXDWG3 on June 25, 2018, 08:22:40 PM
Are they making Indians OUS? AFAIK they're making them all here in Iowa.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: charles05663 on June 25, 2018, 08:29:45 PM
I'm guessing Polaris doesn't export any of their products to the EU?

They may, but I think MoCo is jumping at the chance while the anger and blame is pointed toward a white house located in a swamp.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: grc on June 25, 2018, 09:17:38 PM

IMHO Harley was already planning to move production off-shore.  The tariff thing just gave them an opportunity to do it while deflecting the blame elsewhere.  And while some of you keep saying the production will move to Europe, I don't see anything that actually says that.  All they seem to be doing is looking for a place that won't be affected by the added tariffs that are being imposed by the EU on American goods.  That gives them a huge number of places to move production that have much lower labor costs, which is what they really wanted anyway.  The screwing the employees got under the previous CEO Wandell cut labor costs significantly, but now they have the opportunity to find some third world place where they can really find cheap labor.  They definitely wouldn't want to build anything in Germany, where labor costs are among the highest in the world and much higher than what they currently have in this country.

Personally, I have no sympathy at all for the folks running H-D or their obvious ploy to blame this on tariffs.  This is the same corporation that went crying to Uncle Sam back in the 70's and 80's because they couldn't compete with the much better Japanese products, and got stiff tariffs added to those competing products. 

Jerry
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 25, 2018, 09:38:06 PM
They may, but I think MoCo is jumping at the chance while the anger and blame is pointed toward a white house located in a swamp.

 :oops: :nixweiss:

I don't think that's so much the issue, the swamp is the swamp, never draining always growing. Yes the swamp and its inhabitants are easy to blame, but the truth is HD has to do what's going to make them money. If history has shown us anything, it's that low labor cost is the best way to save money. Regardless if it's baseball caps, dress suits, shoes, and now motorcycles, if America can build it cheaper elsewhere they will.  It will be an American product in name only.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: skratch on June 25, 2018, 09:40:58 PM
IMHO Harley was already planning to move production off-shore.  The tariff thing just gave them an opportunity to do it while deflecting the blame elsewhere.  And while some of you keep saying the production will move to Europe, I don't see anything that actually says that.  All they seem to be doing is looking for a place that won't be affected by the added tariffs that are being imposed by the EU on American goods.  That gives them a huge number of places to move production that have much lower labor costs, which is what they really wanted anyway.  The screwing the employees got under the previous CEO Wandell cut labor costs significantly, but now they have the opportunity to find some third world place where they can really find cheap labor.  They definitely wouldn't want to build anything in Germany, where labor costs are among the highest in the world and much higher than what they currently have in this country.

Personally, I have no sympathy at all for the folks running H-D or their obvious ploy to blame this on tariffs.  This is the same corporation that went crying to Uncle Sam back in the 70's and 80's because they couldn't compete with the much better Japanese products, and got stiff tariffs added to those competing products. 

Jerry

i have to partially agree with your post.  there is no way that they could have decided to shut kansas city, consolidate in york, move production overseas, etc. in such a short amount of time.  i would guess that this has been in the works for two years or more.

and, as long as they keep it as intended, assembling bikes for that market, then i don't have a problem with it.  it's a smart move.  why would you build something here and pay heavy duties and taxes on it when you ship it overseas, if you could assemble it overseas, sell it, and avoid the large tax penalty?  but i don't want to see something built offshore and then sent back here.  that would not please me at all.....
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Mark on June 25, 2018, 09:49:31 PM
HD should be able to produce bikes in Germany, despite high labor costs, and still make a tidy profit.  BMW seems able to make a better product, with more features/technology, at a cheaper MSRP.  And, BMW has the added cost of shipping the finished product across the Atlantic.

But I agree, it would make better business sense to manufacture in a country with extremely low labor costs and ship to Europe.  Welcome to HD's Saigon Assembly Plant and Worker Indoctrination Camp...
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: OBB on June 25, 2018, 10:06:44 PM
Are they making Indians OUS? AFAIK they're making them all here in Iowa.
My remark was aimed at the fact that Polaris will also be paying tariffs. I'm not too sure they'll be high fiving one another about that.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Para Bellum on June 26, 2018, 12:10:20 AM
They may, but I think MoCo is jumping at the chance while the anger and blame is pointed toward a white house located in a swamp.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
HD is jumping at this opportunity to shift the blame.  From the MSN article link posted above (and as most of us already knew):

"Harley was already planning to shrink its U.S. manufacturing base. Earlier this year the company said it would close a factory in Kansas City and consolidate production at plants in Milwaukee and York, Pa. The first layoffs at the Kansas City plant are scheduled for August."
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Twolanerider on June 26, 2018, 12:36:44 AM
HD should be able to produce bikes in Germany, despite high labor costs, and still make a tidy profit.  BMW seems able to make a better product, with more features/technology, at a cheaper MSRP.  And, BMW has the added cost of shipping the finished product across the Atlantic.

But I agree, it would make better business sense to manufacture in a country with extremely low labor costs and ship to Europe.  Welcome to HD's Saigon Assembly Plant and Worker Indoctrination Camp...


Saigon (or Hanoi) would certainly add some interesting historical symmetry to the whole Harley Davidson USA production drama.  Harley already has operating production in Brazil though.  While I've no idea what current trade agreements are between EU and the Latin American economic zone I do remember that they've been in talks the last couple of years trying to establish a free trade agreement.  Transport costs obviously not cheaper but labor costs more than enough less to offset.  Maybe it's nothing more difficult to figure out than simply using existing production facilities?
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 26, 2018, 01:01:29 AM
i don't want to see something built offshore and then sent back here.  that would not please me at all.....

I think may be happening already. Aren’t the Street 500 and 750 made overseas?
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: skratch on June 26, 2018, 07:34:40 AM
yes, and no.  they are made overseas, but only for the overseas market.  the ones that are sold for the us market are mfg here in the us.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: grc on June 26, 2018, 08:37:01 AM
i have to partially agree with your post.  there is no way that they could have decided to shut kansas city, consolidate in york, move production overseas, etc. in such a short amount of time.  i would guess that this has been in the works for two years or more.

and, as long as they keep it as intended, assembling bikes for that market, then i don't have a problem with it.  it's a smart move.  why would you build something here and pay heavy duties and taxes on it when you ship it overseas, if you could assemble it overseas, sell it, and avoid the large tax penalty?  but i don't want to see something built offshore and then sent back here.  that would not please me at all.....

And I can agree with your statement.  As long as they only assemble bikes for that market in that market, it's understandable and tolerable.  After all, they seem to love to copy the automotive industry and that industry has done that same thing for a very long time.  Ford for instance had Ford of Europe, Ford of Britain, Ford of South America, etc for a very long time.  It made sense to build cars for a particular market in that market.  But that entire idea has been bastardized in the past decade or two, such that now many of their vehicles for this market are being built offshore and shipped here.  Over in Detroit GM doesn't even make a pretense about trying to build in this market for this market, they are steadily moving more and more production to China for instance and have several models that are only built there.  The plans are to continue moving production offshore.  So much for thanking the taxpayers who bailed them out in this country.

In the end it doesn't matter to me personally, since I have no interest in buying anything from H-D (or from GM for that matter).  But it does bother me philosophically.  There comes a point where sellers of expensive products will reap what they sow, as those who used to make good wages building those products and used that money to buy those products themselves will no longer be able to buy them.  It's like the old saying about automation taking jobs; how many robots have you seen walk into a showroom and buy a new car?  These days half the population of this country cannot afford to buy even the entry level products.  I see nothing on the horizon that is going to make that situation any better, but I see plenty that tells me it will get worse.

JMHO - Jerry
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on June 26, 2018, 08:55:59 AM


Personal Observations on Jobs

I was driving the backcountry roads of Missouri and Kansas my last trip. Lots of "Jobs Available" signs on gas stations, convenience stores, and small manufacturing plants. I'm sure any displaced workers can find a job if they really want one, maybe even two jobs since a lot of jobs these days are part-time to reduce the burden of benefits costs on employers.

As Harley is shutting the Kansas City Plant over half the jobs are moving to York PA.  The plant being shut was planned with the demise of the V-Rod and Dyna.  that left the sportster and the Street as the only bikes built there.  The street sells poorly in the USA, better in Brazil and Asia.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: 2002FXDWG3 on June 26, 2018, 08:58:58 AM
Jerry (grc) is spot on.  :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on June 26, 2018, 09:00:24 AM
I think may be happening already. Aren’t the Street 500 and 750 made overseas?
Kansas City, Brazil and either Taiwan or India, don't remember which.  The Kansas City ones are for the US market.  The other two are for foreign markets because of very high tariffs.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: scottt on June 26, 2018, 09:15:42 AM
In my opinion; we sometimes forget that Harley is a publicly traded company. Their highest fiduciary duty is to the shareholders,that's just reality.

It's my belief that Harley is fighting to maintain high margins, to themselves and the dealers. Harley forced dealers to build huge, fancy dealerships on expensive freeway locations. These dealerships will not survive without significant profit margins.

It's my belief that their high margin, high volume approach is leading them to seek significant cost cutting. Labor and quality have suffered.

BMW as one example has managed to build high quality motorcycles in Germany, using very well paid employees, outsourcing fewer parts than Harley. Both are publicly traded companies, it's a difference in priorities.

Harley should stand for American made, high quality. Sales volume should follow, not leed. Harley should be the "Snap On" of motorcycles.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: VaEagle on June 26, 2018, 09:17:30 AM
I wonder too if we kind of did this to ourselves by not working out an acceptable compromise between heavy manufacturing and it's pollution problems. I wonder if it's not only cheaper but easier to get around environmental issues overseas?
Then you have the customer greed of wanting all the latest bells and whistles (along with safety features) that makes a vehicle full of electronics and sensors which i'm sure drives up prices too. It's hard to find stripped down models anymore that someone in a lower income bracket can afford.
I remember when people would work for many years to afford their dream vehicle and sometimes they couldn't afford one until retirement or when the kids grew up and left the home. Vehicles also lasted longer and you could see cars 20 or 30 years old on the road, think you will see the modern cars on the road 30 years from now?
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 26, 2018, 09:19:20 AM
So what’s the difference between bikes and clothes?

Most of the HD branded clothes is made overseas and shipped back here for us to buy. A robot can’t walk into a dealership, buy Pakistan leather, Chinese cotton, and Indonesian boots either. Yes, there’s the old argument that paying Bob and Sally in the USA to make your clothes costs way more than paying Abdul and Depali in Pakistan so we, the US consumers will save more in the end.

It’s also about the labor costs. Buy a robot and pay once. Hire labor and pay weekly. It costs money to hire people to pick our fruits and veggies. We can either pay US workers decent living wages, and pay $10.00 for an apple in the market, or hire low wage no benefit workers. Or we buy fruits overseas.

We do it with cars, so why not motorcycles?
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Haird on June 26, 2018, 09:28:28 AM
VW - German - US manufacturing plant
Nissan - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
Honda - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
BMW - German - US manufacturing plant
Toyota - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
Mercedes - German - US manufacturing plant
Volvo - Swedish via China - US manufacturing plant
Hyundai - Korean - US manufacturing plant
Kia - Korean - US manufacturing plant
Subaru - Japanese - US manufacturing plant (thanks for the reminder, Charles.  Indiana I believe)

GM (Chevrolet-Buick-GMC-Cadillac) - US - US, Mexico, Germany (Opel) and Canadian manufacturing plants
Fiat-Chrysler - US via Italy - US and Canadian manufacturing plants
Ford - US - US and Mexico manufacturing plants

The car that is now the most "made in USA" vehicle?  Toyota Camry

I'm with you fellers when it comes to made in the USA and will look for that when I'm buying items.  Few, if any, options are available when it comes to vehicles "made in the US" anymore, including bikes.  The MoCo and Polaris are about the closest companies, vehicle wise, that has most of their manufacturing capabilities in the US with the exception of some Polaris off-road vehicles that are made in Mexico using made in the US motors/drivetrains and the MoCo making parts and bikes in Brazil, Thailand, etc but the main brunt of the fleet is still in Milwaukee and York.   Victory and Indian are fully made in the US.  The MoCo is looking to move more manufacturing offshore but I'm not sure Polaris is ready for that....yet.

Harley making vehicles elsewhere?  Yep, it burns the butt just like that 3 foot flame but it's a reality even with the recent cut in the corporate tax rate.  Kansas City had about 800 jobs I believe, 400 of which are moving/created at the York plant.  Bad for KS and MO but good for PA.
The 500 and 750 were really meant to be sold in India/China where the vehicles are taxed based on motor size.  Sportsters and Big Twins are a premium item there so the water cooled 500 and 750 Street were meant as a more affordable way for everyone in the world to ride a Harley....made in countries with more favorable tariff agreements with those countries....just like everyone else does it all around the world.

There are lots of things that drive profits, some of which we are experiencing in poor quality/design/customer service, but this trend in tarif avoidance has been around a long time.  The MoCo may be riding the caboose of this train but they are on it and as long as it keeps HD on the train, is that really a bad thing?

Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: charles05663 on June 26, 2018, 09:42:17 AM
VW - German - US manufacturing plant
Nissan - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
Honda - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
BMW - German - US manufacturing plant
Toyota - Japanese - US manufacturing plant
Mercedes - German - US manufacturing plant
Volvo - Swedish via China - US manufacturing plant
Hyundai - Korean - US manufacturing plant
Kia - Korean - US manufacturing plant

GM (Chevrolet-Buick-GMC-Cadillac) - US - US, Mexico, Germany (Opel) and Canadian manufacturing plants
Fiat-Chrysler - US via Italy - US and Canadian manufacturing plants
Ford - US - US and Mexico manufacturing plants

The car that is now the most "made in USA" vehicle?  Toyota Camry

I'm with you fellers when it comes to made in the USA and will look for that when I'm buying items.  Few, if any, options are available when it comes to vehicles "made in the US" anymore, including bikes.  Polaris is about the closest company, vehicle wise, that has most of their manufacturing capabilities in the US with the exception of some off-road vehicles that are made in Mexico using made in the US motors/drivetrains.  Victory and Indian are fully made in the US.

Harley making vehicles elsewhere?  Yep, it burns the butt just like that 3 foot flame but it's a reality even with the recent cut in the corporate tax rate.  Kansas City had about 800 jobs I believe, 400 of which are moving/created at the York plant.  Bad for KS and MO but good for PA.
The 500 and 750 were really meant to be sold in India/China where the vehicles are taxed based on motor size.  Sportsters and Big Twins are a premium item there so the water cooled 500 and 750 Street were meant as a more affordable way for everyone in the world to ride a Harley....made there also to avoid the tarifs....just like everyone else does it all around the world.

There are lots of things that drive profits, some of which we are experiencing in poor quality/design/customer service, but this trend in tarif avoidance has been around a long time.  The MoCo may be riding the caboose of this train but they are on it and as long as it keeps HD on the train, is that really a bad thing?

Don't for get Subaru.  Japanese made in USA.

From your post, it shows me that clearly that MoCo should be able to make motorcycles in the US at a competitive price and quality.  If it were not so, then foreign manufactures would not produce them here.  They simply choose not to.

Also, I believe most of the cars are made in non-union states.  My father was an attorney who worked for unions (IBEW).  I have since moved away from the belief that unions are a good thing and do more harm then good.

BTW, I have no problem buying any of the above listed cars or products as long it is made/produced in the USA.  At least they employee American workers.  I still agree with my father on that.  In the end, quality is the most important aspect of a product and I am willing to pay more for a quality made American product.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: guppytrash on June 26, 2018, 10:00:36 AM
LMAO to those who wish to blame USA union labor for this.
You obviously know nothing about European Labor laws.

Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: VaEagle on June 26, 2018, 10:03:07 AM
I remember Honda starting the motorcycle manufacturing in the US to avoid the high tariffs that H-D pushed for years ago since they claimed they couldn't compete with foreign bikes. It really shocked me to read that Honda took their Goldwing manufacturing back to Japan. I wonder if tariffs and shipping costs increase they will regret the move?
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 26, 2018, 10:32:11 AM
I remember Honda starting the motorcycle manufacturing in the US to avoid the high tariffs that H-D pushed for years ago since they claimed they couldn't compete with foreign bikes. It really shocked me to read that Honda took their Goldwing manufacturing back to Japan. I wonder if tariffs and shipping costs increase they will regret the move?

I remember that back in the 70s HD had tariffs placed on any imported motorcycle with a large engine as it "cut into their market". Then Kawasaki started building the KZ1000 in Lincoln, Nebraska and the police departments started using them. HD woke up, and started their buy back of the company from AMF and making the Evo Engine.

But this is all different. Now it's not just Harley vs Honda, and Vega vs Corolla, it's tariffs on metal and everything else. Add to that cheap overseas labor and it's only a matter of time till American Made is in name only.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: charles05663 on June 26, 2018, 11:49:56 AM
LMAO to those who wish to blame USA union labor for this.
You obviously know nothing about European Labor laws.

I belonged to the IBEW at one time.  I simply don't agree with how they (unions) operate.  And I don't care how European Labor law works.  That is a European problem and not an American problem.

In the end, it is simply greed that drives management, "shareholders", and labor.  There is simply no loyalty between any of them and it is all about what they can get.  It has been sad to see the decline of the USA over the years as the focus has shifted to "its all about me" and what can I get attitude.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: WildClyde on June 26, 2018, 11:51:47 AM
Quote
“This will go over like a Vespa at Sturgis,” Mr. Sasse said. “The problem isn’t that Harley is unpatriotic — it’s that tariffs are stupid.”

Vespa's at Sturgis?  :o

I agree with Ben: tariffs are stupid!
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 26, 2018, 12:03:08 PM
In the end, it is simply greed that drives management, "shareholders", and labor.  There is simply no loyalty between any of them and it is all about what they can get.  It has been sad to see the decline of the USA over the years as the focus has shifted to "its all about me" and what can I get attitude.

Ah, the deeper issue. There are those who say trade wars are good, a win-win for all. It makes money for the big companies, they get tax breaks, and their wealth and earnings will trickle down to the rest of us. Perhaps those who lose jobs just need to wait longer for some of the money to trickle down to them.

I could be wrong, but that’s how it works, right?
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Para Bellum on June 26, 2018, 01:12:22 PM
But this is all different. Now it's not just Harley vs Honda, and Vega vs Corolla, it's tariffs on metal and everything else. Add to that cheap overseas labor and it's only a matter of time till American Made is in name only.
AMINO (uh-MEE-no):  American Made In Name Only.

Isn't that the same as "Assembled in U.S.A.", like HDs are now?   :nixweiss:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: bbrown on June 26, 2018, 03:06:47 PM
Come on guys it’s a global economy.    Honda, Toyota, Foxcom and others did not move production to the U S so they could say built in America....they did so they would not have to pay the high cost of transportation and other fees and tariffs..like port of entry fees .unloading tariffs and surcharges thereby keeping there prices competitive with USA automakers.

When that happened not much was said cause it was jobs.  Now it’s the other way around.  If you add another $2200 to the price of a bike in Europe , Harley would never be close to winning customers and selling the 60,000 units they have a market for there.  As a stockholder (albeit small) I applaud the move.  I doubt bikes for the American market will be built there for the reasons mentioned above.

I am a 4 generation Wisconsin Resident and do worry about the people that will be affected.  Time will tell.  Thank goodness there will be jobs at the new Foxcom plant
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Mark on June 26, 2018, 03:59:48 PM
I belonged to the IBEW at one time.  I simply don't agree with how they (unions) operate.  And I don't care how European Labor law works.  That is a European problem and not an American problem.

In the end, it is simply greed that drives management, "shareholders", and labor.  There is simply no loyalty between any of them and it is all about what they can get.  It has been sad to see the decline of the USA over the years as the focus has shifted to "its all about me" and what can I get attitude.

 :oops: :nixweiss:

So greed drives management...but not the workers, unions, etc.?  I think what you are describing as greed is actually capitalism and the free market at work.  The number one concern for a publicly owned company is the shareholder, not the worker.  Companies do not exist to create jobs  - they exist to provide profit for the owners.  No one with an idea for a new company ever starts by thinking how they can create a bunch of jobs.         
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: skratch on June 26, 2018, 04:00:57 PM
The MoCo and Polaris are about the closest companies, vehicle wise, that has most of their manufacturing capabilities in the US with the exception of some Polaris off-road vehicles that are made in Mexico using made in the US motors/drivetrains and the MoCo making parts and bikes in Brazil, Thailand, etc but the main brunt of the fleet is still in Milwaukee and York.   Victory and Indian are fully made in the US.  The MoCo is looking to move more manufacturing offshore but I'm not sure Polaris is ready for that....yet.


are you saying that the electronics on an indian are made here in the us?  suspension?  brakes?  or am I misunderstanding your use of 'fully made in us'?
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Twolanerider on June 26, 2018, 05:11:04 PM
Polaris now speaking of moving "some" production to a facility in Poland as a result of the tariff battle.  And what economists and historians said Mercantilism was dead... ?   


https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/news/2018/06/26/polaris-motorcycles-may-follow-harley-davidson-out.html
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: 2002FXDWG3 on June 26, 2018, 05:18:40 PM
Well that sorta blows a big hole in my theory LOL.  :oops:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Twolanerider on June 26, 2018, 05:23:31 PM
Well that sorta blows a big hole in my theory LOL.  :oops:


At least Polaris already has a European production facility.  According the article the site in Poland currently builds ATVs. 

It's an expensive undertaking to retool as would be required here.  Not a quick task either.  Spidey senses feel like a lot of this is more warning than intent; at least in the near term.  If one has facilities to produce more cheaply within another market (especially if doing so for that market) it only makes sense to do so though.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: grc on June 26, 2018, 05:42:30 PM

The whole "Global Economy and Free Trade" thing was all about allowing corporations to follow the rainbow to the lowest cost and thus highest profits.  It wasn't about fairness to workers or consumers for that matter, it was strictly about hooray for the big guys and the big investors.  The Me generation meets the "Greed is Good" crowd, if you know what I mean.  It's sad, but as I said way back in the early 90's to my coworkers, this approach does nothing less than force labor to compete with the lowest paid members of the third world, until everything settles out with the economy looking a lot like it did over a hundred years ago.  Rich folks, and poor folks.  It's already becoming evident in the statistics that show the middle class is shrinking fairly rapidly.  The only difference from the bad old days is that in our modern world there are government programs that attempt to provide a cushion for the poor.  There are countries in Europe and Scandinavia that are already pushing the idea of a guaranteed minimum annual income for each person in the country, whether they work or not.  I can't see that working in this country, mostly because the corporations and the wealthy would refuse to pay the higher taxes necessary to pay for such a program. 

I'm glad I'm a retired old fart who doesn't have to worry about things like salaries and jobs any more.  But I am concerned about the younger generations going forward, and would not want to be in their shoes.

Jerry
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Haird on June 26, 2018, 09:43:51 PM
are you saying that the electronics on an indian are made here in the us?  suspension?  brakes?  or am I misunderstanding your use of 'fully made in us'?

I was talking forest, not the trees.

Overall made in U.S., not specific components.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on June 27, 2018, 09:17:19 AM
All most all the Foreign car companies are building cars in the South, non union States.  Union is only part of that equation.  Cost is another.

When I retired from the USN in 2001, Denso Manufacturing offered me a Job as a Maintenance team leader.  I was given my Choice of three Plants.  Battle Creek MI, my home town.  Maryville TN and Athens TN.  Starting salary in Battle Creek was 65,000 a year, in TN either plant was 55,000 a year. I chose TN.

Why, it was lots less money.  Housing was way less in TN because land or property was way less.  Tax was way less, insurance was way less, vehicle registration was way less.  So not only was it cheeper for me to live in TN.  It was cheeper for Denso to buy the land, to build the building, to pay the people, to pay their insurance, to register their vehicles and the list goes on.

Example, my dad had a 01 Crew Cab dually, I had the exact same truck but different color.  His tag was 225 a year and 1000 a year insurance.  My tag was 24 a year and 450 a year of insurance.  I bought a one acre lake lot on the TN river for 60K.  That year my Uncle sold his 120 by 150 lake lot in my home town for 750,000. 

I could have a better standard of living earning 10K less than in MI. 

Our wages were very comparable to union plants in the area, same with the plants in MI. 

GM came to visit us.  The wanted to know how we could make spark plugs, paint AC/Delco on them, and sell them to GM for less than they could make them for.  Our three plug lines had only 2 multi craft maintenance guys on each shift and 3 production workers.  GM had an Electrician, a machinist, a mechanic, an instrument tech, a software tech, a welder, a pneumatic tech, and a Hydraulic tech.  So 6 more maintenance people per shift.  They had 14 production workers for our 3.   All that extra labor adds up fast, but union rules, the electrician only does electrical an so on.  Union line worker cant take out the trash and so on.

Or workers actually made more than the Union as no union dues.  Same vacation, sick leave and health benefits.

I'm not Anti union as all 4 of my grandparents were union, most my cousins are union, my brother is  Union steward. 
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: smkymtnboy on June 27, 2018, 10:27:04 PM
well OCC paul and paul jr. build there bikes in usa and are back on prime time TV or is that another story? :nixweiss:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: iski on June 27, 2018, 11:29:45 PM
well OCC paul and paul jr. build there bikes in usa and are back on prime time TV or is that another story? :nixweiss:

It's a story about money & those who love money and hope to get more money to love.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Twolanerider on June 28, 2018, 01:46:01 AM
well OCC paul and paul jr. build there bikes in usa and are back on prime time TV or is that another story? :nixweiss:



Those bozos aren't even a story.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Chains on June 28, 2018, 07:52:54 AM
Actually plans were in the works long before the United States put new tariffs in place a week ago or so.  Seems Harley and others thought it was a great time to blame the administration on the move and take the heat off themselves. Not the first plant overseas anyway  😎

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-harleydavidson-thailand/harley-davidson-plans-a-thailand-factory-to-serve-se-asian-market-idUSKBN18L0DA
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: geezerglide on June 28, 2018, 06:57:10 PM
Now Polaris announced they will be manufacturing in Poland.

geezerglide
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Chains on June 28, 2018, 08:33:22 PM
Now Polaris announced they will be manufacturing in Poland.

geezerglide

Here again they already had the plant in place.

http://www.atv.com/blog/2014/09/polaris-opens-manufacturing-facility-in-poland.html
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 29, 2018, 08:16:47 AM
So all in all, bikes that could have been made here and shipped overseas, were, are, or will be made in other countries for sale there.

Makes business sense, avoids tariffs and fees, and makes the company profit.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: iski on June 29, 2018, 09:10:14 AM
So all in all, bikes that could have been made here and shipped overseas, were, are, or will be made in other countries for sale there.

Makes business sense, avoids tariffs and fees, and makes the company profit.

Yeah, a good business move when products can be produced closer to point of sale, if done efficiently.  Means HD is thinking growth & beyond "survivor" mode.  The thing that underlies the angst of the media, etc. is:  US unions will lose some jobs because bikes they were made here to be shipped elsewhere will now be made elsewhere. 

The misinformation - along the line of HD will be making bikes in "x" country & shipping them back to the US to sell - is a running story too.  Not accurate, a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Chains on June 29, 2018, 09:51:41 AM
Yeah, a good business move when products can be produced closer to point of sale, if done efficiently.  Means HD is thinking growth & beyond "survivor" mode.  The thing that underlies the angst of the media, etc. is:  US unions will lose some jobs because bikes they were made here to be shipped elsewhere will now be made elsewhere. 

The misinformation - along the line of HD will be making bikes in "x" country & shipping them back to the US to sell - is a running story too.  Not accurate, a lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth has got its boots on.

Absolutely a good move especially when you consider the tariffs that were already in place for shipping to Europe.  Just ask anyone in Europe  that has purchased anything made in America even prior to 2016.

As for the lie I agree as well some people tend to see everything as a negative and have blinders on when it comes to the truth.

 
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 29, 2018, 11:07:47 AM
And then there's this happening.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/26/trump-says-harley-davidson-using-trade-tensions-as-an-excuse.html?__source=sharebar|facebook&par=sharebar

I guess that's one way to keep it from moving operations overseas.

Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: grc on June 29, 2018, 12:08:32 PM
And then there's this happening.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/26/trump-says-harley-davidson-using-trade-tensions-as-an-excuse.html?__source=sharebar|facebook&par=sharebar

I guess that's one way to keep it from moving operations overseas.

If they try to import any of the stuff they build overseas into the US, you can bet they will be paying through the nose.  Looks like not only the customers are no longer enamored of H-D, but the POTUS as well.  Say goodbye to all the favorable treatment they've received from government agencies over the last several decades.

Jerry
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Chains on June 29, 2018, 12:41:09 PM
If they try to import any of the stuff they build overseas into the US, you can bet they will be paying through the nose.  Looks like not only the customers are no longer enamored of H-D, but the POTUS as well.  Say goodbye to all the favorable treatment they've received from government agencies over the last several decades.

Jerry

If they intend to ship back to the United States then they should be treated no different than any other company shipping to the United States.   
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: guppytrash on June 29, 2018, 12:47:03 PM
Trump also encouraged outsourcing to students of Trump University, the now-defunct program that is under litigation over allegations of fraud. In a 2005 post titled “Outsourcing Creates Jobs in the Long Run,” Trump wrote that sending work outside your company “is not always a terrible thing.”

“I know that doesn’t make it any easier for people whose jobs have been outsourced overseas, but if a company’s only means of survival is by farming jobs outside its walls, then sometimes it’s a necessary step. The other option might be to close its doors for good,” Trump wrote in the post.

The above may be fake depending on what you want to believe.  I confess I just copied it off the internet.

Does the POTUS get to single out companies and bully/threaten them with "taxes like they've never seen before"?

Seems like taxes would be the same on a Trump suit made in Mexico as a Harley made in Europe or Thailand.  No different for any company shipping outside the U.S.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: iski on June 29, 2018, 12:53:17 PM
Considering the way this thread has turned of late, maybe it's time for somebody to manufacture a Democrat oil & somebody else manufacture a Republican oil.  Then we could argue over which oil is better & why, forever, until it's written on our tombstones about what great oil arguers we were. 

Of course if one or both of those oils was imported, or an oil company moved it's operations to a country outside the USA, then we would have a whole new set of arguments.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 29, 2018, 01:04:29 PM
Does the POTUS get to single out companies and bully/threaten them with "taxes like they've never seen before"?
Seems like taxes would be the same on a Trump suit made in Mexico as a Harley made in Europe or Thailand.  No different for any company shipping outside the U.S.

I've often thought that myself.

But why is it that folks get upset when the Motorcycle says Harley, but is made overseas, yet never bat an eye when the T-shirt that says Harley is also made overseas? Same with the leathers, boots, sunglasses and all that?
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: DesertHOG on June 29, 2018, 01:36:27 PM
Considering the way this thread has turned of late, maybe it's time for somebody to manufacture a Democrat oil & somebody else manufacture a Republican oil.  Then we could argue over which oil is better & why, forever, until it's written on our tombstones about what great oil arguers we were. 

Of course if one or both of those oils was imported, or an oil company moved it's operations to a country outside the USA, then we would have a whole new set of arguments.

Did you steal this from the Humor thread? $399/quart.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: guppytrash on June 29, 2018, 02:11:25 PM
I've often thought that myself.

But why is folks get upset when the Motorcycle says Harley, but is made overseas, yet never bat an eye when the T-shirt that says Harley is also made overseas? Same with the leathers, boots, sunglasses and all that?

Yea I have wondered the same and even ask those that scream "Harley MADE IN AMERICA" the loudest.
 
To their credit, most are aware of that, and most will tell you they won't by that overseas stuff (coats, gloves, etc) for the same reason.

I can respect that.

It's the guy who rides a Harley dressed in 100% made in Indonesia Harley garb who sneers down his nose at any brand X motorcycle as if "shame on the owner" then rides it home and parks it in the garage next to his Toyota Tundra, and Nissan Altima. 
That guy makes me smile and scratch my head. 
Not judging, just find it entertaining.







Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: iski on June 29, 2018, 02:28:36 PM
Did you steal this from the Humor thread? $399/quart.

Funny oil is a bargain at any price, essentially.  In truth, had just read this article from the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/2018/06/28/harley-davidsons-classic-americana-foreign-sourced-parts/741163002/ (https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/2018/06/28/harley-davidsons-classic-americana-foreign-sourced-parts/741163002/)
on what Harley parts are sourced from which countries.  HD, much like USA auto industry is ASSEMBLED in the USA, with some components manufactured here & many manufactured elsewhere.  My heart does not choose to bleed over this moving to Europe deal, since.......these horses left the barn years ago & trying to close the barn door now has nothing to do with getting them back, just means you need to turn on a light.

Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Ironhorse on June 29, 2018, 03:01:16 PM
these horses left the barn years ago & trying to close the barn door now has nothing to do with getting them back, just means you need to turn on a light.

I'm not tracking your metaphor.
Leave the light on and hope the horses find their way back and come home?
Meaning, make it "friendlier" for businesses to want to return home to make motorcycles and other things.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: iski on June 29, 2018, 03:32:59 PM
I'm not tracking your metaphor.
Leave the light on and hope the horses find their way back and come home?
Meaning, make it "friendlier" for businesses to want to return home to make motorcycles and other things.

Damn, now I had to read my own post.   ;D

It's dark in that barn already, with the door closed will be darker.  Turn on a light, shine a light on the situation, and yeah, maybe if the horses see the light they will come home or the owner will decide sitting in a barn & bitching about lost horses is not accomplishing anything.

We can as a country pass laws & write regulations to make it easier for companies to do more business here, with products made here.  Because the problem goes back to the 60's in various industries (and a little beyond that for others but the early 60s are a good benchmark), doubtful we could ever get all that business back.  If we selectively target industries and components, the manufacturing segment will grow.  Of course that is government picking winners and losers & no matter which party is in power when that happens, there will be graft, corruption, and favoritism. Other countries it is the same deal - they pick and choose winners/losers & penalize their trade partners to the extent they can get away with it. So should we, in some cases we do, in others we are Uncle Sam the Idiot trade partner, historically.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: charles05663 on June 29, 2018, 08:28:01 PM
I've often thought that myself.

But why is it that folks get upset when the Motorcycle says Harley, but is made overseas, yet never bat an eye when the T-shirt that says Harley is also made overseas? Same with the leathers, boots, sunglasses and all that?

That is why I don’t buy HD clothing. I wanted to replace the HD money clip I lost.  Went to Barnett’s HD in El Paso and all of the clips were made in China. Went online and found one made by the Amish for the same price and better quality.

The only HD clothing I own are the chaps and leather jacket that I wear and they are American made.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: smkymtnboy on June 30, 2018, 03:17:48 PM
  really do not care what the reason for making harleys overseas are! i just know it makes me feel less and less likely to purchase another one. :(
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Chains on June 30, 2018, 11:10:17 PM
  really do not care what the reason for making harleys overseas are! i just know it makes me feel less and less likely to purchase another one. :(

The high price and low quality are what’s turning me off.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: phato1 on July 01, 2018, 10:49:51 AM
The high price and low quality are what’s turning me off.

Now there's a statement we can all agree with...… sadly  :(
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: grc on July 01, 2018, 11:14:21 AM

In six months (or less) when those threatened tariffs don't materialize, how much does anyone want to bet that Harley won't change the plans to move production elsewhere?  It's just convenient for them and others to blame the tariff threat for something they've been planning anyway.

Even now, before any threatened tariff is added by the USA, exports to the EU are taxed heavily.  Ask anyone over there how much they  pay for a Harley and compare that price to what the same model sells for in this country after allowing for currency valuations.  That's part of what the current administration is talking about when they say the playing field is not level.  If we truly had free and fair trade, the only difference should be in things like the higher freight cost to ship bikes to Europe versus the US, and any special equipment requirements.  These days there aren't many major differences, just minor things like lighting regulations and perhaps some noise regulations.

Jerry
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: guppytrash on July 01, 2018, 12:32:45 PM
In six months (or less) when those threatened tariffs don't materialize, how much does anyone want to bet that Harley won't change the plans to move production elsewhere?  It's just convenient for them and others to blame the tariff threat for something they've been planning anyway.

Even now, before any threatened tariff is added by the USA, exports to the EU are taxed heavily.  Ask anyone over there how much they  pay for a Harley and compare that price to what the same model sells for in this country after allowing for currency valuations.  That's part of what the current administration is talking about when they say the playing field is not level.  If we truly had free and fair trade, the only difference should be in things like the higher freight cost to ship bikes to Europe versus the US, and any special equipment requirements.  These days there aren't many major differences, just minor things like lighting regulations and perhaps some noise regulations.

Jerry

I agree Jerry. 

In 6 months when those threats don't materialize we will still be living in 2018, we will still be living in a global economy.

A global economy that the USA is a major player in, but not a dictator of. 

Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Chains on July 01, 2018, 01:38:39 PM
I agree Jerry. 

In 6 months when those threats don't materialize we will still be living in 2018, we will still be living in a global economy.

A global economy that the USA is a major player in, but not a dictator of.

I agree as well. The administration is 100% correct.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: smkymtnboy on July 01, 2018, 07:05:35 PM
trump does not like harleys being made overseas! if, this is to political for the site moderators please remove and forgive me at least once. thanks smoke!
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: smkymtnboy on July 01, 2018, 07:07:26 PM
https://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/trump-harly-voters-harley-davidson/2018/07/01/id/869400/?ns_mail_job=DM3076_07012018&s=acs&dkt_nbr=010502k5f21c&ns_mail_uid=982c93fa-ce4e-4c13-bc35-031c268ebd9b
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: guppytrash on July 01, 2018, 08:12:51 PM
I agree as well. The administration is 100% correct.

Good luck with that part! 
 
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Dutch Eagle on July 03, 2018, 11:36:30 AM
I'm guessing Polaris doesn't export any of their products to the EU?

Yes they do.  They sell Indians over here for the last couple of years. And they give the Slingshot a try.


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Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Dutch Eagle on July 03, 2018, 12:25:51 PM
Absolutely a good move especially when you consider the tariffs that were already in place for shipping to Europe.  Just ask anyone in Europe  that has purchased anything made in America even prior to 2016.

As for the lie I agree as well some people tend to see everything as a negative and have blinders on when it comes to the truth.

For cars and motorcycles: it  depends on CO2 emissions. The higher emmissions, the higher taxes. For any brand, no matter where it is produced or where it is coming from. For instance: Buying a Tesla over here is reletivaly  cheap. For such a premium expensive car that is. Assembled here in Holland by the way, to avoid even more import/export taxes.

Although Harley sales over here is about equal to the numbers in the US, it is not such a popular brand over here. When I am in the US, I am amazed by the numbers of Harleys I see over there. An Harley over here is exclusive and expensive. Riders prefer BMW, Triumph and Ducati besides Japanese brands.

American muscle cars are unaffordable here. For instance, Ford Mustang is available here with a small 4 cylinder engine to make it more affordable.

I drive a Mercedes Benz ML350 which is a German brand and has a Made in the USA tag on it. I am pretty sure that MB will ramp up production of smaller European models like the C class pretty fast in their Alabama facilities when the US will charge those import cars more.




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Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: FXDFSE on July 03, 2018, 09:07:21 PM
Don't kid yourselves,  Matt and Michelle will be moving all production to Thailand to get margin dollars. They hate Trump and Thailand will pay all tooling and capital costs in addition to cheap labor.  HD needs to get new management to hopefully get back to be an American icon.  They want to crush the unions and they do not care about you other than getting you to keep buying their products and collecting their millions in pay.  Time will tell that this is the final chapter to a company we all loved.
Title: Re: Harley moving jobs to Europe
Post by: Chains on July 07, 2018, 10:14:59 AM
My guess is they won't sell many of these.