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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: cockawit on February 14, 2019, 08:40:35 AM

Title: tranny oil in primary
Post by: cockawit on February 14, 2019, 08:40:35 AM
anybody else on here have their transmission oil end up in the primary? it happened to me on a 2019 road glide ultra with the hyd. clutch. has anybody tried the cultch push rod from Macomb county choppers? they claim to have the fix.
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: CVOdave on February 14, 2019, 09:54:32 AM
I'm planning on installing the "pushrod", just as a preventative measure. I haven't experienced the transfer that I know of. After my engine upgrade, I want to do anything possible to prevent issues with oil sumping or otherwise!.Also putting on the AIM Light Force to improve the clutch pull force (from AIM SDR install) and engagement point.

Dave
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: cockawit on February 14, 2019, 11:43:47 AM
keep me informed after the install Dave.

thanks Russ
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: Mark on February 14, 2019, 10:58:12 PM
anybody else on here have their transmission oil end up in the primary? it happened to me on a 2019 road glide ultra with the hyd. clutch. has anybody tried the cultch push rod from Macomb county choppers? they claim to have the fix.

Well documented issue on the M8.  Google search "oil migration Harley m8."  You'll find quite a few items to read. 
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: CJ CYCLE on February 17, 2019, 01:36:21 PM
I've changed primary oil twice now and have not seen an issue.  Tranny fliuid level always the same.  4700 miles on my 2018 CVO Road Glide.
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: glinkmeyer on February 23, 2019, 05:40:14 PM
I have a 2019 CVO Ultra and 9 ounces of transmission oil migrated to the primary in 5000 mile. HD allows 8 ounces of migration so mine was documented to HD and waiting to see how much migration I have next time LOL I guess they all do that.


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Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: Twolanerider on February 23, 2019, 05:58:12 PM
I have a 2019 CVO Ultra and 9 ounces of transmission oil migrated to the primary in 5000 mile. HD allows 8 ounces of migration so mine was documented to HD and waiting to see how much migration I have next time LOL I guess they all do that.


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WHAT   ???  :o

Mother Harley actually created a specification to allow for a leak migration that never should have happened to begin with? 

If the same 8 ounces (but not 9!) leaked to the ground would that loss from the transmission still be ok?

Since transmission gear oil is viscous and will have significant surface cohesion to all the parts surfaces in the transmission how are they going to accurately measure a difference of one ounce?

S....   ahh, never mind.  These people keep getting stupider and stupider and assume the riders are the same.  If they're going to try to feed the customer base bullchit they should at least show us the respect of being subtle about it and not rubbing in our faces that they truly do believe we sheep in line to their corporate dollar slaughter.
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on March 07, 2019, 09:41:31 PM
I have a 2019 CVO Ultra and 9 ounces of transmission oil migrated to the primary in 5000 mile. HD allows 8 ounces of migration so mine was documented to HD and waiting to see how much migration I have next time LOL I guess they all do that.


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 I Think I got you beat!
Trans holds 28 oz, my trans had just over 7 when drained.
Guess where it went?
This is a new 2019 CVO limited with just over 200 miles! Less than one week old!
Let’s see if the dealer and factory will step up to the plate.
 :nixweiss:
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: glinkmeyer on March 07, 2019, 09:47:22 PM
I Think I got you beat!
Trans holds 28 oz, my trans had just over 7 when drained.
Guess where it went?
This is a new 2019 CVO limited with just over 200 miles! Less than one week old!
Let’s see if the dealer and factory will step up to the plate.
 :nixweiss:
Sorry to hear, hope you didn’t hurt the transmission, a friend of mines transmission went out on a 2019 three wheel TriGlide from oil migration.


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Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: Threephase on March 07, 2019, 10:47:13 PM
I wonder if their "new" heavier gear oil is part of the MOCO 's solution. Thicker oil less likely to migrate....
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: DCC on March 09, 2019, 03:23:21 PM
I wonder if their "new" heavier gear oil is part of the MOCO 's solution. Thicker oil less likely to migrate....
Wondering the same thing.  Just saw this "new"  80W-140 Synthetic Gear Lube product in their January 2019 New Parts Catalog .
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: glinkmeyer on March 09, 2019, 07:52:04 PM
Yes, seen a seminar today trying to tell everyone about how much better it would be to use the heavier oil. LOL


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Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: grc on March 09, 2019, 08:52:32 PM
Yes, seen a seminar today trying to tell everyone about how much better it would be to use the heavier oil. LOL


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This from the same company that tried to blame Cruise Drive trans problems on customers using heavier than standard lube back in 07/08.  Btw, I seriously doubt the increase in viscosity would magically eliminate the transfer problem.

Jerry
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on March 19, 2019, 09:44:13 PM
For those who wish to keep their warranties intact and let the dealership and factory rep take care of this issue there is a updated vent for the primary. You will never know it’s there unless someone points it out.

Not saying this takes care of the cause but I was assured it DOES take care of the effect.
Time will tell and I will be monitoring the oil levels.

I’ll stick with the “factory fix” until they give up and buy the bike back. I’m told mine was one of the bad ones. 700 miles on a new bike and we noticed the problem at about 200.
 :nixweiss:
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on March 21, 2019, 09:20:01 AM
What is this updated vent for the primary?  A new part number?  How do you get it?
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on March 21, 2019, 10:57:07 AM
What is this updated vent for the primary?  A new part number?  How do you get it?

You have to start at the dealer and they do a check to see if your bike is one of those affected.
There is no part number.
Dealer works with factory to install vent in infected motorcycles.
This is sort of a one on one fix, not anything like a general recall.

There seems to be no definitive cause to this issue as the factory people and dealers point to riding style, type of oil used, modified bikes, all sorts of explanations. Not any one thing.
IF your trans fluid is low dealer will drain, measure trans and primary fluids, fill, repeat, call factory and proceed from there.

My latest bike showed this issue in the first 200 miles because I checked my dipstick when shifting and clutch operation became harder (primary full of oil).
If you have over 200-1000 miles on your last oil change check your trans oil level on the side stand
Good luck
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: Twolanerider on March 21, 2019, 11:02:33 AM
You have to start at the dealer and they do a check to see if your bike is one of those affected.
There is no part number.
Dealer works with factory to install vent in infected motorcycles.
This is sort of a one on one fix, not anything like a general recall.

There seems to be no definitive cause to this issue as the factory people and dealers point to riding style, type of oil used, modified bikes, all sorts of explanations. Not any one thing.
IF your trans fluid is low dealer will drain, measure trans and primary fluids, fill, repeat, call factory and proceed from there.

My latest bike showed this issue in the first 200 miles because I checked my dipstick when shifting and clutch operation became harder (primary full of oil).
If you have over 200-1000 miles on your last oil change check your trans oil level on the side stand
Good luck

No part numbers (for later service if necessary if nothing else).  No documented repair requirement from the factory.  Can't get info from the manufacturer and must work through the dealer only.  In another vernacular that sounds like "winging it."
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on March 21, 2019, 11:23:00 AM
No part numbers (for later service if necessary if nothing else).  No documented repair requirement from the factory.  Can't get info from the manufacturer and must work through the dealer only.  In another vernacular that sounds like "winging it."

You are correct IMHO.
But “winging it “ would not be a legal term the factory would use.
Remember, most companies, including Harley, are run by lawyers.
I have heard of only one bike that had a transmission break, but I heard that second hand.
 :soapbox:
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: glinkmeyer on March 21, 2019, 12:11:03 PM
You are correct IMHO.
But “winging it “ would not be a legal term the factory would use.
Remember, most companies, including Harley, are run by lawyers.
I have heard of only one bike that had a transmission break, but I heard that second hand.
 :soapbox:
As I discussed in another thread ( oil migration ). The transfer of oil has been going since 2017 and as I was told mother Harley allows 8 ounces of migration in a 5,000 mile oil change, mine had nine so will see if they vent my primary next service as I had 9 ounces in 4,000 mile as for the 1,000 mile break in service. The dealership has had more problems with the TriGlides, not sure why. Two members in our HOG group did break their transmissions due to oil migration.  One a 2017 the other a 2019 and the owner of the 2019 had the same problem with a 2018 thinking they had the problem fixed by buying the 2019. Just wonder how many other owners have this problem not even knowing as you would not know unless you checked your transmission level before service or measured how much oil was drained out of the primary and transmission separately. Most people probably drain all three holes together in one pan. There supposedly an aftermarket fix by installing a larger clutch rod that my dealership knows nothing about.


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Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on March 21, 2019, 01:23:01 PM
Remember that when most people take their bike in for oil change the tech puts the big plastic drain pan under the bike, pulls all 3 plugs, oil filter, goes to parts department gathers all needed oils, filter or whatever then back to the bike.
Installs plugs, torques them to spec(hopefully), fills oils to spec (hopefully).
Test ride to check for leaks then on to the next one.

Unless the customer mentioned to check fluids BEFORE pulling drain plugs, it usually doesn’t happen and the tech AND the customer have no clue.
I’m guessing there are a lot more bikes having this issue than we are aware of. I know at least 2 of our club riders checked theirs when we were talking about it and they had the mod done.

JMHO
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: grc on March 21, 2019, 03:52:16 PM

So we have another secret problem Harley doesn't want to acknowledge so they issue no official bulletins, change the "specs" to allow oil to migrate wherever it wants to go, and offer those who won't accept the changed spec BS a shade tree unofficial vent to supposedly keep the oil in the trans where it belongs.  And just like the sumping issue they still haven't fixed (band-aid only, and only somewhat effective on some bikes), it's a new thing common to the M8 that wasn't common on the TC.  Should not be hard to figure out what they changed from 2016 to 2017, so once again I have no doubt they know exactly where they screwed up.  And once again it would cost too much to make a proper fix to eliminate the root cause.

It has to be getting much harder to drink that Kool-Aid and keep supporting these clowns.

Jerry
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: flash1034 on May 07, 2019, 01:32:09 AM
Remember that when most people take their bike in for oil change the tech puts the big plastic drain pan under the bike, pulls all 3 plugs, oil filter, goes to parts department gathers all needed oils, filter or whatever then back to the bike.
Installs plugs, torques them to spec(hopefully), fills oils to spec (hopefully).
Test ride to check for leaks then on to the next one.

Unless the customer mentioned to check fluids BEFORE pulling drain plugs, it usually doesn’t happen and the tech AND the customer have no clue.
I’m guessing there are a lot more bikes having this issue than we are aware of. I know at least 2 of our club riders checked theirs when we were talking about it and they had the mod done.

JMHO



So far so good with mine. 
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: SIX38 on May 07, 2019, 05:46:44 AM
As I described I another thread, lost 10 oz. in the first 69 miles, ‘19 Road Glide CVO. Topped off, lost 9 oz. on the 69 mile trip back to dealer. They got right on it, called and received vent kit from MOCO, had bike back in 4 days. 150 miles later all good, no transfer. Rode bike hard, easy, fast, slow, bumper to bumper, twisty, etc. Will of course be keeping a close eye on this.
I do wonder what came first, The chicken or the egg?” Looks to me that the design of the vent tube itself and the matching recess in the case had to be included in the original primary case design. Why would that recess be there otherwise, since without the hole and vent tube, it serves no purpose?? Thinking the MOCO rolled the dice, decided not to install as OE and hoped for the best.
Anyone's guess, but would love to get the real story behind this issue. My HD love/hate relationship continues. We are all nuts!🥜
Ride safe and God bless,
Tom P.
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: rayson56 on May 07, 2019, 02:13:33 PM
I Just finished my 15K service and no fluid transfers and no sumping. Knock on wood, all is good!
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on May 07, 2019, 05:03:48 PM
2019 cvo limited 4500 miles.
About 1000 miles since the vent was installed
All oil levels right where they’re supposed to be.
The vent is working as it should.
I’m told this will be a running change through production rather than a re-design.
Guess we’ll see in August.
 :nixweiss:
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: harley2001 on May 25, 2019, 09:30:18 PM
I've heard the vent is hit and miss, the fat rod looks promising,  have you guys seen this fix.
http://rockerlockers.com/wordpress/?page_id=215
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: bigcraig on May 26, 2019, 05:23:46 PM
Fat rod didn't work for me.

Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: SIX38 on May 27, 2019, 08:21:00 AM
Update:
At 900 miles, 760 since the vent kit was installed
Zero loss of transmission oil since vent install. Keeping a close eye on this.
Tom P.
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on May 27, 2019, 08:49:43 AM
I’m still trying to understand how all this works.

If oil is present in the main shaft tunnel due to being “pushed” there from the s/c past the pushrod gap, and the primary goes into a “vacuum” state and “sucks” the oil into the primary and the primary vent install stops this process what causes the vacuum in the first place?

I have my own idea why this is happening on the late model bikes but I’m not an engineer!

 :nixweiss:
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: grc on May 27, 2019, 11:52:43 AM

The "theory" I read was that the primary runs much hotter than the trans, and that heat expands the oil and the air in the primary.  Then when the primary cools down the air and oil contract and somehow create this vacuum.  In that theory however no one tells us what happens to that higher pressure in the primary created by the expansion of hot air and oil.  If that theory actually held water, oil and air should be forced from the primary into either the trans, the crankcase, or on the ground.  The other big problem with that theory is that the primary always ran a little hotter than the trans on the older engines as well, and they did not suffer from fluid transfer from the trans to the primary.

IMHO the problems with fluid transfer as well as sumping all occurred after Harley changed the engine and trans cases for 2017, making them more compact and "form fitting" to the internal parts.  Since they have no plans to go back to the older style cases, all you will see are band-aids and no real fixes of the root cause of the problems.

Jerry
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: SIX38 on May 27, 2019, 04:07:31 PM
Hello JERRY,
Yea, the why behind this transfer is bugging me too. After my fix, I have been asking fellow M8 owners if they had this problem, and to a man they knew nothing about it. “Who checks tranny oil?” was the usual response. 4 out of 6 were low. Brother in law has 3 M8s, all low.
Since now, thanks to the vent tube, I have an access path to my primary I think I’ll  connect digital gauges to the tube and see what kind of pressure / vacuum is going on in there. Stay tuned.
Tom. P
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on June 02, 2019, 06:51:45 PM
Hello JERRY,
Yea, the why behind this transfer is bugging me too. After my fix, I have been asking fellow M8 owners if they had this problem, and to a man they knew nothing about it. “Who checks tranny oil?” was the usual response. 4 out of 6 were low. Brother in law has 3 M8s, all low.
Since now, thanks to the vent tube, I have an access path to my primary I think I’ll  connect digital gauges to the tube and see what kind of pressure / vacuum is going on in there. Stay tuned.
Tom. P

Been down that road with our local dealer. Got all kinds of denials and excuses but persistence pays off, I guess.
Factory guy shows up and adds the vent tube.
I just got back from a trip of 1500 miles and the oil levels in transmission and engine are right on the mark.
The vent works.
 Dealership and factory people have no explanation WHY it’s happening, but common sense would point to a couple of issues in the new design of engine and transmission.
What would you do if you were the accountant for Harley? A 10cent hose? Or, a $500 addition to machining process?
 :soapbox:
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on June 03, 2019, 11:19:42 AM
I see now that Harley will SELL you that 10 cent hose for the discounted price of only $39.00!
And you can do the work yourself.
Of course you’ll have to BUY the oil and gaskets yourself.

Looks like Harley found a way to make a profit on their mistakes.
 :soapbox:
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: Mr. Warlock on June 03, 2019, 01:08:54 PM
I see now that Harley will SELL you that 10 cent hose for the discounted price of only $39.00!
And you can do the work yourself.
Of course you’ll have to BUY the oil and gaskets yourself.

Looks like Harley found a way to make a profit on their mistakes. AGAIN
 :soapbox:

Mike, you forgot a word, I fixed it for you!
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: HOGMIKE on June 03, 2019, 04:07:45 PM
Mike, you forgot a word, I fixed it for you!

Thanks, someday I’ll learn how to do that!
 8)
Title: Re: tranny oil in primary
Post by: The 1 on June 15, 2019, 10:15:11 PM
Hello JERRY,
Yea, the why behind this transfer is bugging me too. After my fix, I have been asking fellow M8 owners if they had this problem, and to a man they knew nothing about it. “Who checks tranny oil?” was the usual response. 4 out of 6 were low. Brother in law has 3 M8s, all low.
Since now, thanks to the vent tube, I have an access path to my primary I think I’ll  connect digital gauges to the tube and see what kind of pressure / vacuum is going on in there. Stay tuned.
Tom. P
[/  quote] pull clutch lever in wait 15 seconds, make sure trans is in first,hit starter, bike jumps forward a couple of inches,neutral has all of a sudden become harder to find?? you probably have this problem, check trans it will be low.