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Author Topic: Seats - The Road to Comfort  (Read 2016 times)

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Hoist!

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Seats - The Road to Comfort
« on: August 07, 2007, 03:14:18 PM »

I was just checking this site out ( http://www.sargentcycle.com/csroadcom.htm ), as I need my old RK Touring Bucket restuffed. It's pretty interesting. These people seem like they have their act together. I'm thinking about sending my seat to them. Hoist! 8)

PART 1:

The Road to Comfort and the ATOMIC Theory

"For all the happiness mankind can gain, is not in pleasure but in rest from pain."
John Dryden 1631-1700

Do you find yourself speeding from one rest stop to the next? After 250 miles of a two-day ride, do the words "Lincoln Continental" make your mouth water? Obviously, long-distance motorcycle riding should not be that brutal. On the other hand, most would agree that some degree of discomfort on long rides is not only to be expected, it is actually a unique part of the experience. Hence, the joy of arriving. It is important to realize that total comfort on extended rides (3-6 hours) may never be obtained. Let's face it, even in an automobile, with its large spring-suspended foam seat, discomfort can set in within only a few hours. By contrast, a motorcycle seat, with its small seating surface, severely limits movement and has a less dynamic solid foam suspension. That's the bad news. The good news is that diligent comfort seekers, armed with the right information, can be rewarded handsomely.

To be successful, you must first put discomfort in perspective. How much discomfort is too much discomfort, and can something be done to extend comfortable riding time? Since there isn't one solution that works for everyone, a clear understanding of the contributing factors is essential.

Introducing the ATOMIC Theory - the Advanced Theory Of Maximum Integrated Comfort. Its purpose is to help explain the various causes of riding discomfort, define limitations, and recommend possible solutions.

According to the ATOMIC Theory, three major factors contribute to the level of comfort that can be obtained on any given motorcycle:

1. Forced ergonomic position
2. Size and shape of the seating platform
3. Type of padding suspension

Examining each of these factors can provide valuable clues for potential improvements in comfort.

Forced Ergonomic Position. First, let's look at the riding position itself. The physical relationship between the foot pegs, handlebars, and the seat on any given motorcycle forces the rider into a specific seating position known as the forced ergonomic position. This position virtually defines all motorcycle types, and can have a profound effect on seating comfort.

For instance, the cruiser, with its high, back-swept handlebars, forward pegs, and low slung seat, forces the rider into a reclined position. Reclined doesn't necessarily mean comfortable. This reclined position causes all of the driver's body weight to be focused on the base of the spine. And, since cruisers typically have a locked-in or bucket-shape seat, the driver is prohibited from using the long distance riding technique known as LAP. Additionally, some cruisers suffer from a foam that is too soft and bottoms out.

CRUISER Many cruisers can be dramatically improved by installing a high-quality, closed-cell foam to relieve the pressure at the base of the spine. Installing straighter handlebars that force the driver to lean forward can also reduce this pressure.

STANDARD/TOURING Standard and touring motorcycles are defined by a neutral or upright seating position. While less severe than the cruiser, the weight is still concentrated on the driver's rear-end. Except for most touring models, these bikes often have relatively flat seats, allowing for the use of the LAP technique. Of course, good foam suspension is important and, like on the cruiser, foam that is too soft and bottoms out can be a problem. Modifying seat contours to better suit the driver and/or modifying the handlebars may also be beneficial.
 
Many find the sport touring configuration to be the best long-distance ride you can buy. These models force the driver to lean forward a little more, distributing some of the pressure from the rear-end to the arms and legs. In addition, many of these models feature a long, flat seat, allowing plenty of room to shift positions on long rides (LAP). Ergonomics are excellent on these models but, as with all models, foam that is too soft and lacks good suspension can shorten comfortable riding time.

L A P T e c h n i q u e. LAP stands for Long-distance Alternation of Position. This riding technique involves periodically changing position by moving from front to back on the seat, allowing the driver to rotate the pelvis, change the pressure points and stretch the arms and legs. 

« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 03:17:21 PM by Hoist »
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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2007, 03:16:05 PM »

PART 2:

SPORT / TOURING  SPORT Of course, sport bikes live and breath for the race track, or at least a good twisty mountain road. Their precision handling is due in part to positioning the driver's upper body and arms almost directly over the front wheel steering radius. The resulting forward-lean angle transfers much of the driver's rear-end pressure to the upper arms and wrists. Because the forward reach to the handle bars is combined with rear-set pegs, use of the LAP technique can be limited. 

Some of the most common changes on this model type involve improving foam suspension and changing angles of the seating platform to better suit the driver. For example, some stock sport bike seats are angled in such a way as to force the driver into the tank. This can be corrected by leveling the seating surface through foam alterations.

Size and Shape of the Seating Platform. The second major factor involving comfort is the size and shape of the seating platform. Changing contours to better suit the driver can do wonders. For example, a motorcycle designed for a shorter driver can be modified for a taller driver by changing the seat contour to allow the driver to sit further back and extend his legs into a more accommodating position.

DISH SHAPE Widening and "dishing out" the seat platform are also popular foam alteration techniques. Widening is usually limited to only one inch beyond the existing width edge of the seat pan. Dishing out redistributes pressure from the center spine area to the outer buttocks and is usually most effective on seats already 12" in width or more. 

There are as many possible changes to seat shape as there are types of people, and this can be a trial-and-error process. Careful thought and experimentation may be necessary. (For more information on this, see our Foam Alteration Guide and our Custom Foam Alteration Policy.)

Type of Padding Suspension. Ideally, padding or foam suspension should behave like springs by absorbing shock and providing continuous support. All mass-produced stock motorcycle seats have injection-molded, open-cell polyfoam suspension. If this foam is too soft, it can lose its air, become fully compressed, and bottom out. Its suspension value is lost. Road shocks and vibrations are then transferred directly to the driver's bum - ouch!

A good, high-quality closed-cell foam installed into the seat can improve this situation. While this material may seem firmer, it doesn't become hard under a full load and continues to absorb road shocks and vibrations.



SUPER CELL ATOMIC FOAM

Super Cell Atomic Foam is a closed-cell foam designed to be installed into the upper 2" of a stock motorcycle seat. Its high-tech construction permanently traps air inside each cell, giving it a dynamic, spring-like suspension quality. Super Cell can be installed in either the original seat shape or customized to meet individual specifications. Super Cell Closed-Cell Foam:
Will not bottom out under a full load
Absorbs multiple shock-impact G-forces and vibrations
Does not retain heat
Is extremely stable - will not migrate under upholstery
Is extremely lightweight
Is available for do-it-yourself installation
 

Obviously, comfort is a very complex issue. The ATOMIC Theory suggests that better comfort can mean anything from a simple foam alteration to changing handlebars or even choosing a bike better suited to your riding style.

The road to comfort is often an exploration. Remember, long rides should be an adventure. Frequent stops are good for the body and soul. Plan well, take your time, and enjoy the ride.

- Mark Todd, President, Sargent Cycle Products N.A. (c)1996-2003
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 03:18:01 PM by Hoist »
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HWYMAN1

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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2007, 03:55:33 PM »

Howie,
you might check these guys out too.   http://www.day-long.com/new_pages/harley.html
 Similar philosophy. Someone on this site has one by these guys, I talked to them about redoing stock CVO before getting corbin ( didn't want down time without seat) good luck john
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Hoist!

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    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2007, 04:03:47 PM »

Howie,
you might check these guys out too.   http://www.day-long.com/new_pages/harley.html
 Similar philosophy. Someone on this site has one by these guys, I talked to them about redoing stock CVO before getting corbin ( didn't want down time without seat) good luck john

Thanks John, I've seen that site and heard they're comfortable seats. But I can't get past the looks. It appears that they only make new seats, unless I missed that they rebuild your own seat too.

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2007, 04:09:02 PM »

Sargent makes a nice seat...have seen them on Ducs before.  Foam is very similar to Corbin, but not quite as firm.  The price on the seat for the Ducati was about the same as the Corbin, maybe a bit less.  I went with the Corbin because of the installation on the Duc.
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    • CVO1: '07C FLHRSE3, BLACK ICE OF COURSE, CUSTOM 110" TC 6-SPEED +++, "CYBIL"!!!
    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2007, 04:12:08 PM »

Sargent makes a nice seat...have seen them on Ducs before.  Foam is very similar to Corbin, but not quite as firm.  The price on the seat for the Ducati was about the same as the Corbin, maybe a bit less.  I went with the Corbin because of the installation on the Duc.

Thanks Terry. I'll contact them to see how much restuffing my old seat will be. It might be a good, inexpensive alternative to a new quality seat.

Hoist! 8)
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"We wanna be free to ride our machines without being hassled by The Man!"

Traxxion Dynamics Suspension Rules! "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up!"

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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2007, 07:04:02 PM »

Howie,
Looks like they'll do the entire seat 'rebuild', be interesting to see how they compare to others:

Custom Seat Services ...Something for everyone...

Our in-house Custom Services Division can handle anything from basic reupholstering and reconditioning to foam alterations, foam upgrades, gel inserts and special upholstery styling. In shop turnaround is quick - usually no more than a few days.
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Hoist!

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    • CVO1: '07C FLHRSE3, BLACK ICE OF COURSE, CUSTOM 110" TC 6-SPEED +++, "CYBIL"!!!
    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2007, 07:12:52 PM »

Howie,
Looks like they'll do the entire seat 'rebuild', be interesting to see how they compare to others:

Custom Seat Services ...Something for everyone...

Our in-house Custom Services Division can handle anything from basic reupholstering and reconditioning to foam alterations, foam upgrades, gel inserts and special upholstery styling. In shop turnaround is quick - usually no more than a few days.


I called them. It sounds like they'll do whatever you want to your seat. No heat option. They don't make new seats for HD either. The starting price to redo my HD seat in a smooth, stitched pattern is $500. A button seat is much cheaper. And they use your seat pan, so you still have that junk. With a heated Corbin being what, $900, it doesn't seem worth it. Sounds like they know their "stuff" ;D about seats! But I wasn't looking for a $500-$600 rebuilt HD seat. ;)

Hoist! 8)
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"We wanna be free to ride our machines without being hassled by The Man!"

Traxxion Dynamics Suspension Rules! "It ain't braggin' if you can back it up!"

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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2007, 07:23:03 PM »

You ain't whistlin dixie there...Why can't corbin make a seat to keep in stock for the 07 serk like they have done for other serks??

Miker
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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2007, 10:36:34 PM »

Give Danny Gray a call. Check out the big seat it is the latest seat from him. Had on Ultra know for 2000 miles and love it. Went from the junker stock to Corbin which was fine and tried a buddies Danny Gray touring seat and WOW! This seat sits me low and has all kinds of comfort and the other thing I like about it it comes standard solo and you add the pass. pillion what size you want. You can get any stitch pattern and the leather is second to none.
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miker

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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2007, 07:58:47 AM »

Thanks Sky, the big seat with backrest is what I am looking for, if they can get the nose narrow enough for serk, I'm in.

Miker
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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2007, 08:30:04 AM »

This is my opinion, and they are like buttholes...everybody has one...but one of the problems, at least the the original HD seat on my bike, was with the seat pan being made of a flimsy, very flexible plastic.  Not a good foundation to build a seat...like a bad foundation on a bed.  The Corbin seat pan is constructed of a rigid, inflexible material that appears to be like a chopped fiberglass laid up in a mold, much the way some boat hulls are constructed.

On the other hand, the HD Sundowner seat pan on my Vrod is a bit stiffer material, or is stiffer because of the shape, and is very comfortable for me. 
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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2007, 09:35:40 AM »

I don't know if you can blame the epa for HD's crappy seats...They have all sucked on all the bikes I own and have owned...Incredible.  The Danny Gray's look to have the rigid seat pan and high density foam required for a decent saddle and the price is right, just coming up with a fender skirt to cover the unfinished paint by the MoCo will be an add-on. 

If you think Corbins and such are expensive try riding saddles for horses, like my daughters, 1500 beans and no stiched flames, sheesh.

Miker
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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2007, 10:24:14 AM »

I don't know if you can blame the epa for HD's crappy seats...They have all sucked on all the bikes I own and have owned...Incredible.  The Danny Gray's look to have the rigid seat pan and high density foam required for a decent saddle and the price is right, just coming up with a fender skirt to cover the unfinished paint by the MoCo will be an add-on. 

If you think Corbins and such are expensive try riding saddles for horses, like my daughters, 1500 beans and no stiched flames, sheesh.

Miker

Miker...though I have no experience with saddles for horses, my sister's kids are big riders, as are my best buddy's, and it is nothing at all to pay $1500 for just a basic horse saddle, and they go up big time from there.

No doubt that Corbin builds an excellent seat...I have no experience with the Danny Gray's, but from all reports, they sound like an excellent alternative.

Like you, I cannot understand why HD cannot produce a decent seat.  It's not like people mind paying the money for the bike in the first place, so why the hell can't they just add another 300 bucks to the price and get somebody to build a decent seat.  Guess their profit margin on the seat wouldn't be 1000% then...in the P&A catalog, the stock seat on the 06/07 SEUC is 900 bucks, not including the backrest...same price as the Corbin.  I was able to ebay my stock seat and get back just over half the cost for the Corbin.
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Sometimes it takes a whole tankful of fuel before you can think straight.
I had the right to remain silent, just not the ability...

Gone, but not forgotten...2011 FLTRUSE with
Fullsac X Pipe w/2" Baffles
Legend Air Ride Rear Shocks
Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 Front Suspension
Clearview GT13 Windshield
TTS Mastertune

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Re: Seats - The Road to Comfort
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2007, 10:36:08 AM »

Corbin has not been very excited about selling me a seat.  I guess I have to ride up to Daytona and get it fitted.  I just hate waitng around for ours while thet do ....stuff to my bike.

They said they had issues with the 07 serk fittment, someone else on this site said the 03 fit so I ordered one.  Corbin cancelled the order citing the fittemnt issue and as one of my favorite people, Judge Schmails says, "Of all the nerve!"

Miker
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